Scion xA

scootertrash · December 2003

Did you drive one before you bought?
What's your air pressure?

micweb · December 2003

...my complaint exactly. But, at 4,000 miles, it has softened to the point where it is not a threat to the health (brain bumping around in skull!). Now it's "merely" sports car firm.

It IS so bad, at first, I thought about ditching the car. But now its ok. It's not just that I've gotten used to it - I rotate driving with a couple of other cars - so when I come off a "softly sprung" car and get in the xA, I have to learn its characteristics all over again. It has actually gotten softer.

It's also gotten more powerful. It revs more freely, and you can feel the power bump at +4,000 rpm.

Give it time. It will get softer.

mjwrightuk · December 2003

Ditto on post #173 - the ride on my xA softened after about 1,500 miles.

This is always going to be a problem on a short wheelbase car with a "harsh" sports suspension. I think it's especially true on the Scion because the ride position is very high (a trade off for great the visibility). Like I say mine has softened quiet a bit, but it's still plenty stiff for tight handling. I think it depends on what you drove before. Anyone coming from a sporty car will accept it as the result of having a firm suspension set-up, however if your used to a typical soft sedan-type feel prepare for a bumpy ride!!! In my opinion it's well worth it because the car handles really well on the streets. Cornering/braking is excellent and the steering is very responsive.

Ditto also micweb's comments on engine performance. Mine now has 2,000 miles on the clock and it's definitely getting more powerful around the 4,000 rpm band. Mine has the auto gear box and the overdrive works great for on ramps/passing etc. I was a little worried at first but after I broke in the engine for the first 1,000 I've thrashed her around a bit since and now she's a lot quicker off the mark.
Question - has anyone installed a cold air intake on their Scion yet? In general do cold air intakes damage the engine in any way?

The only design issue I have so far with the Scion is that I'd really like a proper temperature gauge rather than a couple of warning lights. In years to come I'd rather not have to wait until I get a red light before I know to replace the thermostat! Is this style system employed on any other new cars? Other than that I love the look and feel of the interior. The center mounted gauges work great for me and the stereo is mounted perfectly, slap bang where I need it. That and it's a fantastic sounding system that blows away anything else I've heard on a standard car package.

Also how is everyone doing on mileage? I drive mostly freeway, average around 75 mph, and get a fairly consistent 33 mpg. Anyone doing any better?

Cheers. mjw.

tom_slick · December 2003

I gotta say I'm very interested in this car. I'm a '99 Honda CR-V LX AWD owner, and while I like it a lot, its too much vehicle for me- the gas mileage is mediocre (20 mpg) for my daily 30-40 minutes each way commute, and it'll cost me around $22 K minus trade-in to replace it in a couple of years, as I'm planning to. In this economy, I'd like to save some money while still having good comfort & reliability.

So I'm looking at the LONG list of possible alternatives, and what I'm seeing is this, compared to my trusty CR-V:

- RAV 4: only marginally better mileage, and just as expensive
- Element: slightly worse mileage, a bit cheaper if I get the 'stripper' model (which I don't want), just as expensive if I get it with the stuff I want (AC, CD, power everything, cruise)
- Other compact SUVs: Pretty much the same boat as either the RAV or the element, and not as reliable
- Accord: slightly better mileage, just as expensive unless I get the stripped model (DX) which I dont want. LX 4-cyl IS a very good deal, but I'd like to go cheaper if I can
- Civic: Promising, but I have to go with the LX if I want a 'civilized' 4-door automatic with the stuff I mentioned above, and at that level (nearing $17k with destination charges) I can't help but feel its a bit overpriced for what it is. VP model is priced right but only comes in 2-door, and you can't 'build it up a little' to get the power everything and cruise.
- Focus: Don't make me laugh. This car's recalls have recalls.
- Echo: A good deal if you want the 2-door manual and the basics (I don't), but go to toyota.com and try to price out a 4-door automatic- they shove a $3K options package down your throat. The sad thing is you actually need a lot of it, 'cause the Echo is so stripped, but that doesn't change the fact that this makes the Echo as costly as a Corolla... NOT a good deal.
- Corolla: Showed promise initially (CE model is cheap), but if you want power windows & cruise, you gotta move up to the LE model (not interested in the 'boy racer' S), and then you're back in Civic LX price territory, shelling out 'near Accord' money for a subcompact. I'm sure thats no accident, Toyota & Honda seem to be pricing off each other.
- Matrix: HATE the styling. Vibe looks better, but costs more.
- PT Cruiser: Gorgeous, but mediocre mileage and about as expensive as a CR-V when I move up to the Touring Edition to get the stuff I want
- Mini Cooper: I'm tempted. Only 2 doors, but its so very stylish I might not care. But with CVT automatic and a package to get the cruise control, is only slightly cheaper than the CR-V with only moderately better gas mileage.
- Mazda 3: Don't know anything about it, but have heard good things. Waiting for it to come out.

But now the Scion Xa has come along.

Its priced RIGHT... basically an Echo wagon with WAY better styling and with all the stuff you'd want... for about $2K LESS than a loaded 4-dr Echo.

Is there any reason I WOULDN'T want this car, other than the lack of cruise control?

micweb · January 2004

small trunk...same as Mini. You do get real rear seat room though.

Pick up the latest Motor Trend and see what they say about the Scion in their COTY award section (Prius won).

backy · January 2004

A couple of other alternatives you may want to at least look at are the Aveo LS 5-door (well equipped for about $11k + TTL after discounts/rebates) and the Elantra GT 5-door. The Aveo is unproven but looks like a nice little package for the money. The Elantra would provide good comfort (incl. leather) and utility, plus its reliability is now ranked "Above Average" by CR.

The xA looks like a lot of car for $13k but there are two big issues for me: 1) reports of a harsh ride (the reason I didn't buy a Protege last time) and 2) it's not available in my area until this summer.

micweb · January 2004

backy · January 2004

tom_slick · January 2004

Thank you to backy and micweb for their responses so far.

I think I'm ok with the small trunk because I should be able to fold down the rear seats and get good cargo room. Is that correct? Also, some people above are reporting that the harsh ride lessens over time as the struts 'break in'. Is that also correct, or a bunch of wishful thinking?

Finally, thank you Backy for rec'ing the Aveo and Elantra, they seem very inexpensive, but the Aveo as you said is totally unproven and its GM/Daewoo heritage doesn't give me much hope reliability & resale value -wise. The Elantra seems a better choice as Hyundai seems to be improving quality-wise, but still, resale value is probably going to lag until Hyundai has proven itself for a few more years yet.

Side note: Just got back from driving a rental Corolla in Vegas for 4 days. Gotta say, I'm pretty impressed-- everything seemed pretty tight and refined, down to the switchgear & the doors slamming shut with a velvet 'thunk'. Pretty as a picture too and very big for a 'subcompact'. Only things I didn't like were the acceleration (mediocre of course) and the headroom was only ok in front, sort of bad in back-- and I'm not that tall (a long-torsoed 5' 10").

At the least the windshield glass really should extend up into the roof a couple more inches, to give at least the 'feeling' of more headroom space.

micweb · January 2004

I had the same resolution as you to the "trunk" issue - carry less routine junk, which leaves lots of room for groceries, and either use the back seat or fold one or both seats down for any overflow.

The ride does soften "enough" after about 2-3,000 miles.

Quality is tops. Rereading Motor Trend's January issue which has some nice comments on the Scion's in the Car of the Year Section. It gets special mention for outstanding fit and finish (comparable to a luxury car) and high value (lot of features that don't cost extra).

Interior dimensions are pretty similar to the Corolla on the xA, more rear seat room on the more expensive xB.

mjwrightuk · January 2004

For those interested the Scion tC is up on the Scion website. It looks good but is very conservative when compared to the styling of the xA and xB. Looks like it will be more expensive too - 2.4 liter engine, standard 17" alloy wheels and a few more electronic gadgets to play with.

Also there's pictures of the limited edition xB in Orange. It's a cool color - shame they're not offering on xA!!!

m4eth · January 2004

Can it be installed??

Mike

moparbad · January 2004

moparbad "2004 Scion xB" Jan 17, 2004 8:12am

Should be similar for xA.

tom_slick · January 2004

Did a little more research, talked to some Scion Xa owners.

Basically they agreed it was pretty near perfect 'cept for the lack of cruise and that it could use a little more power.

I think this car will be #1 on my low-price alternatives list when I sell my ol' CR-V. If the economy improves a lot, though, I'll be looking at Matrix/Vibe, PT Cruiser, and Accord LX (4 cyl).

Btw, side question: What does the 'front strut tie-bar' do for you, precisely? What are the positives and negs?

micweb · January 2004

If you are thinking about a car the magnitude of an Accord LX, which has outstanding sound insulation, a sporty ride, and a much bigger, stronger, slower revving engine, you might find yourself terribly dissatisfied with the xA. It has no trunk to speak of and turns 4200 rpm at 80 mph, where most cars these days are turning 2500-3000. Also, it has very little power in the lower rpm range. If you are willing to drive it like a '60's English sportscar - keeping it in the upper rpm range - it is a blast. I view it as a budget sports car, and from that perspective, it is more than a blast, it is darn practical, because it seats four easily and has a lot of interior room (but hardly any trunk). And it gets good, if not great gas mileage (the Neon and Civic beat it by 5 mpg highway in my personal experience). The driving position is very upright and comfortable - not low slung, looking up at everyone's door handles.

To get the xA, I traded in a 2003 Honda Civic LX Coupe which was ultraquiet on the highway, had cruise control, and got 35 mpg driving 80mph for 400 mile trips...but it was BORING. Way too sedate. The xA is a hoot, but it is a million miles away from the ACCORD LX or any other similar car which is much more versatile.

Oh, did I mention the ride in the xA will knock your fillings out?

I don't want to discourage you if you ARE looking for an affordable Mini knockoff, but based on the other cars you talk about, this may not be "enough" car for you.

tom_slick · January 2004

Micweb, you bring up a good point- the Xa may be 'near perfect', but only for a sub-$13,000 car... spend more & move up in class, and you get more refinement: less noise, plusher ride.

Trust me, I've test-driven an Accord LX... I KNOW what I'd be missing, and it is compelling. But the $7K price difference is pretty compelling in the Xa's favor too. However, what you reminded me of power-wise is potentially a BIG strike against the Xa... namely that you have to keep the engine revving to get any power out of it.

I have a long commute that is stop-and-go in parts, and that seems to dictate an automatic. But with the Xa, a manual seems to be the way to go. Could be a deal-breaker, unless you can turn off the overdrive (like you can with my CR-V - helps quite a bit in highway passing and up hills, actually).

In your opinion, would this car be pretty bad to drive with an automatic?

micweb · January 2004

The acceleration was good, you could shut off the overdrive.

As a commuter car, no problem. Remember, as a commuter, no luggage or passengers.

Keep in mind the xA weighs a few hundred pounds more than the Echo, so I believe it loses a second in zero - 60 acceleration.

BTW, for the first time I took three passengers in my xA last weekend, and I did NOT notice any sluggishness.

tom_slick · January 2004

So it sounds like all I'm losing with the xA is a bit of refinement... automatic performance should be adequate.

koley · January 2004

Why are the EPA mileage figures for the xA so low (31 city/37 highway)? The Toyota Corolla (32/40 mpg with its 1.8 Litre engine) gets better mileage than the xA. The Toyota Echo, albeit slightly lighter, gets 35/43 miles per gallon. The Canadian only Echo Hatchback also get 35/43 mpg (6.7/5.2 litres per 100 km). What gives? And why is the Echo hatchback only available in Canada? Unlike the Echo sedan, it's a beautifully proportioned car and has an entirely different personality than the xA . . .it would sell very well in the US.

mjwrightuk · January 2004

Hi tom_slick. I drive an automatic xA and I'd say the performance is more than adequate for everyday driving. Happily you can turn the overdrive off when needed and this provides plenty of passing power. Also the overdriven automatic gearbox takes care of the high revving referred to in earlier posts. The auto version revs between only 3,000 and 3,500 rpm at 75/80 mph with the overdrive engaged. Hope this helps.

micweb · January 2004

... if the car weights are similar, in my experience. I have had way too many small cars over the past four years, and forget about the ratings, the mileage seems pretty consistent:

VW Golf 2001 2.0 5 speed: horrible EPA ratings, I actually got 30 mpg consistently, except when I drove 350 mile interstate runs at 80+ mph, when it dropped to 26 mpg.

Neon '99 2.0 5 speed: usually 30 mpg on my commute, after break in, hit 35 mpg consistently on the same interstate run at similar speeds.

Neon 2002 2.0 5 speed: usually 30-32 mpg on my commute, 30 on interstate (lower gearing than '99).

Echo 2002 1.5 auto: usually 30 mpg, though rated much higher of course.

Honda 2003 Civic LX 5 speed 1.7: started at 30-32, but by time up sale (10,000 miles) was consistently getting 35 mpg. I attribute this to a combination of the gearing and fine tolerances in the Honda. Also slightly smaller displacement.

Focus 2000 5 speed ZX3: 30 mpg, dropped 2 mpg on interstate runs.

Focus 2001 auto ZX3: 26 mpg, much lower than expected, but maintained mileage well on interstate runs.

Scion xA 5 speed: 32-33 mpg, much lower than the city rating would lead me to expect, but better than I would expect from the high rpms. Probably because of small engine and tight tolerances. Loses 2-3 mpg on sustained high speed interstate runs. Due to the nature of this car I keep speed down to 75-80 on the interstate.

Neon 2003 auto 2.0: 27-28 mpg, but too early in miles to be reliable as a measure.

Mustang 2002 3.8 5 speed V6: 20-22mpg first 3,000 miles, then picked up to 24-26 consistently, with no appreciable drop on interstate runs. Amazing gas mileage for an engine this strong large and a car this heavy. Considering what I got on my ZX3 auto.

My measuring methodology is to calculate mileage on each fill up; each fill up is done almost always on level ground; let the pump click off, wait, then jam nozzle way down neck and gingerly top off - sometimes takes up to three times of clicking before the additional gas going in is negligible. If I have to refill on a slope, always point nose down so no air bubbles. Usually with this fill up technique, I don't get a visible gauge drop during the first 30 miles, due to use of gas in the filler neck.

My conclusion is that modern cars, with average drivers, get pretty consistent mileage, the EPA tests are different with stick shifts because the test regime assumes a shift at certain speeds regardless of engine rpm (gearing), which may not be the most efficient shift points. To counter this, some manufacturers (Cavalier, 2.3 ZX3) put "upshift" lights in their cars and the EPA will use those indicated upshift points.

Still, with sticks, I get much closer to the highway mileage, even on a commute and interstate run, while with autos, I get closer to the city mileage with the same driving. Manuals tend to beat their stats, autos tend to underdeliver.

The EPA "highway mode" is pretty non-demanding, more of a short hop in the countryside with some street driving as well, than real freeway driving where air resistance becomes a factor. I recollect that the highway mode doesn't exceed 50 mph....

pulgo · January 2004

You obtained a very bad MPG with the Echo.

I have a 2001 (identical to the 2002) with AT and I have NEVER had less than 35 MPG, no matter how hard I try, not even in summer with the AC on all the time and mostly stop and go traffic.

My 80k mile average now stands at 41.7 MPG (all numbers for US gallons @ 3.785 litres per gal).

micweb · January 2004

The Japanese engines (and the Mustang!) see to require a little more break in time to hit good mileage. I only kept the Echo through 3,000 or so miles, the crosswind sensitivity was too much for me (which is why I am tickled pink that there is NO such sensitivity in the xA).

The mileage you report is much more in line with what I had hoped for on the Echo.

lngtonge18 · January 2004

My god! Is it just you and your wife going through all these cars in such a short period of time?? How are you financially able to ditch an Echo after only 3k and switch cars so much? I would think you are loosing thousands of dollars on a yearly basis. I want to know your secret because I love buying lots of new cars too!! So how many cars do you own now? The 04 xA, 04 Focus ZX3 2.3, 03 Neon, and the Mustang?

micweb · January 2004

No, its probably costing me. The trade in's aren't so bad - - I buy really really cheap (easy to do these days) and negotiate hard on the trade-in. For example, I bought the V6 Mustang, stick, on an advertised special for $13,000 - much less than the $18,000 sticker. Two years later, I traded it in for $9700 on the Neon, which was discounted $3,800 (rebate plus dealer dough). I traded in after two years of driving (only $13,000 miles though) and "beat" the upcoming hit to trade-in value based on a totally new platform coming out for the Mustang. I also traded in right before DMV renewal.

My biggest hit is the sales tax. Also it is impossible to sell these things to private parties these days EVEN FOR the amount of the trade in - dealers are subsidizing trade-ins. I thought two cars was excessive at first, then three ridiculous, now I have four and my wife has drawn the line. I have promised to begin reducing my fledgling stable, but fortunately she hasn't set a time line and I am not yet in a 12 step program.

The 2004 Cav only cost $10,200 - $10,800 "special value package less $600 dealer discount, no rebate due to special value package.

My 2003 ZX3 is another advertised special - no air con (which I regret) but only $8995. Now you can get them with air for only $1,000 more.

I try to bottom feed the ads and look for overlooked cars, and especially stick shifts are always the ones advertised because no one can drive them anymore, although I did get the Civic for $2,000 off MSRP and they overallowed my trade in by about $1500.

You tend to get good at making deals when you flip cars this often, and the "finance person" stops trying to sell you junk. You also negotiate the finance rate - dealers make more money in the finance department on rate kickbacks and accesssory markup than they often do on cars. But, I make the buying experience fast and pleasant for them....

I'd like to get down to 2, or maybe 3, cars (wife and baby) when the used car market firms up and I can offload private party, without haveing to trade (and buy a replacement).

I like the Neon, it is very mature and solid, a great car for my wife and baby. Probably a keeper, since the possible replacements (the 2006 modely based on the Mitsubishi Lander, or a 2005 VW) really need a couple of years to "season" before I would trust them. I no longer trust any "first year" car, even from the Japanese...read the posts by other people. In fact, I think it takes about 2 years to debug Toyotas and Hondas, 3 years for every other make. It takes that long for feedback from consumers and service departments etc.

The other car I SHOULD keep is the Scion xA, which is built like a Lexus, but it is such a tiny mouse mobile with no luggage space, that it is hard to justify. I know it will hold its resale value, though.

The Cav is a piece of junk, NVH wise, but the engine hauls monkey butt and it reminds me of my first '56 Chevy. Since it's brand new, I can't offload it for at least two years.

The ZX3 is probably just masochism - the 2000 I bought originally was the first car I got after coming out of an "urban environment" where I bussed to work everyday, bussed on the weekends, and almost only used a car to move from one side of the street to the other on street cleaning days (no destination or return parking in urban environment). I liked th eZX3 so much, hey all the magazines did too, including Consumer Reports, that I kept wanting Ford to get it right and bought two more (finally got a good one). In fact, it has incredibly low NVH and great pep. But, Focus styling is getting long in the tooth and I have since learned to appreciate other cars, especially the grossly underrated Neon. I liked my former VW (grossly overrated), but the dealer service was horrible and, well, VW has the reputation but can't deliver the goods, quality wise.

Oh yeah. The big costs of ownership are insurance. When I had one car, I paid $1200 a year. Now I am up to $4,000. I resent that and consider paying off a car here and there and not paying for collision insurance (only liability insurance - most of our premium dollar goes to insuring the finance company will get repaid).

I probably know more about economy cars than most magazine writers - at least I drive them for more than a few weeks and couple of hundred miles. Also, let's face it, no one - hardly anyone - tests stick shift, V6 Mustangs, base model Cavaliers and Neons, etc.

Oh yeah. What I'd like to have as the second car, is a Dodge Magnum with Hemi, if I felt lucky enough to afford the gas consumption, and if Dodge has their act together. Otherwise the boring but safe bet is an eventual Honda Accord 5 speed manual, 4 cylinder. Quite frankly my total car payment is about equivalent to most people's payment on their overpriced Ford Expedition, so I don't feel so bad, it's just my insurance that stinks.

lngtonge18 · January 2004

Wow, I think I've found my car trading match! LOL I thought I was bad with all the trading I've done. My parents thought I was absolutely crazy or flat rich (a social worker is far from rich..). Where we differ is I consistently traded in order to move up to nicer better equipped cars. It has now gotten to a point where I'm stuck with the new cars I have for at least 5 years, which is a little disheartening. How you do things is a little more doable since you stay with stripped cars.

I started with a used 84 VW Rabbit GTI (my first car; bought when I was 15) and a used 85 Audi 5000. The Audi was a rust bucket and was replaced after 2 months with an 85 Civic Wagon. The Civic was a piece of junk and was replaced with an 87 VW Fox after 6 months. The Fox was replaced with a 93 Diamante after 5 months simply because the Fox didn't have AC. Halfway through my year with the Diamante, I bought an 84 Mazda RX7 dirt cheap, which I also kept for a year. The RX7 took over as the main hauler after selling the Diamante. The RX7 was then replaced with a used 91 Stanza, which was replaced 6 months later with a used 97 Altima, which was then replaced 6 months later with a new 02 Mitsubishi Lancer OZ. A few months after buying the Lancer, I bought a 92 Miata. I just traded the Lancer after 2 years for a new 03 Diamante LS (quite a big jump in price and luxury). I kept the 84 Rabbit GTI but bought a new 00 Hyundai Accent L to take over its daily duties. After 2.5 years, I sold it to a friend and bought a new 03 Suzuki Aerio SX. After 9 months, I traded the Aerio in for a new 03 Hyundai Tiburon GT V6. So now I own an 84 GTI, 92 Miata, 03 Tiburon, and 03 Diamante. And yes, I feel your pain as far as insurance goes.

As you can see, my mind boggling constant trading was all in the quest to afford the more nicely equipped cars I couldn't afford early on. However, having so many different cars over a period of 6 years has really spoiled me. It's going to be real hard to stick with the 2 new cars I have now. But negative equity from the Lancer and the Aerio will keep me where I'm at. Taking your approach actually seems fun and more my style. But now that I've tasted luxury and speed, I can't go back to the stripper cars

I do have one thing to say about first year cars. VW and American cars do 1st year cars bad, but some companies manage to avoid huge problems. My 02 Lancer was bought in the first 2 months the car was released, but it was absolutely flawless in 2 years and 31k. No recalls and no dealer repairs. My only issue was a clogged AC drain hose that was fixed by a TSB. My 00 Accent was also a first year car. No recalls and only 2 dealer repairs in 2.5 years and 26k. Now, I own an 03 Tiburon, also a first year car. I have 1 recall and 1 voluntary service campaign that needs to be done, but no dealer repairs in 10 months and 10k. Maybe I have just been lucky, but Mitsu and Hyundai have proven to me they can design a good car from the getgo. Now, Ford, GM, and VW are a whole other story....

Anyway, it was cool to exchange stories with someone that is a crazy car nut like me. Good luck on your future car trading!

micweb · January 2004

To cars. For example, I liked the Lancer, great crash test results, and I would have gotten one...but Mitsubishi dealers are scarce enough that I couldn't get a "deal." They were willing to offer weird finance deals - no payments for a year - but not dicker on the price. But if I'd gotten one, I would now be feeling "Ralliart" deprived - the 2.4 Mitec, the Ralliart handling package in the Lancer - significant upgrades.

Now we have side curtain air bags gradually being phased in to provide protection from SUV's in side impacts (side impact bags - for the trunk - don't help much, what are needed are head protection bags).

Anyway, last night I thought about my strange odyssey and decided the cars to keep are the Scion xA as a "sporty car" (my "Miata") and the Neon 4 door auto as the "family car." Then in three years, upgrade the Neon to the new Dodge/Mistubishi Stratus/Galant vehicle - the new Galant gets great reviews, has a great 3.8 engine, while the Stratus is still wheezing along on a 2.5 four or 2.7 V6. I think the blend of Mitsubishi and Dodge design and engineering in the DCX line is going to be very interesting. The other alternative is to go minivan.

On the xA front, my goal is to upgrade to the new VW Golf, but not until the next generation has been "seasoned" a few model years over here. The xA should have "long legs" I have heard nothing but great things about Toyota longevity and resale value. The Neon will be driven a lot less (my commute puts about 30,000 miles a year on my cars, plus another 10,000 of pleasure driving).

Well, stay in touch, and keep trading. :-)

mfblankenstein · February 2004

I have been evaluating the xA and initially noticed some vibration at a stop light (in Drive) through the pedals and seat.

After the test drive I opened the hood and in park at idle, the engine is really vibrating along with the main attachments on the right (facing the car). The salesman told me this was normal since the engine was mounted on "gel packs" to reduce vibration.

My concern with longevity is that the attaching components will eventually suffer damage from the continuous thrashing.

Has anyone else noticed this vibration?

Michael B.

micweb · February 2004

I drove my mom's Echo back home this weekend and it has a similar vibration problem - I assume you are talking about the automatic - sometimes the idle is very low and a knocking comes from the engine compartment as some engine piece knocks against the frame. I haven't been able to isolate the exact source. I noticed that in gear with the car stopped - either foot on the brake or parking brake on - the motor does thrash a lot in the mounts, although you don't notice it in the cabin (you can see it, in gear and in park, with the hood open). If you give the engine a tad more gas to smooth out the idle, the thrashing goes away, or of course if you put the auto in neutral.

I don't know why the idle is set so low....

tom_slick · February 2004

Gosh, you guys sure do know your stuff. Thanks for all the info... and the xA definitely remains on my 'short list', which looks like this:

Cars around $15K:

Scion xA
Corolla LE
Civic LX
Mazda 3 sedan

Cars around $20K:

Vibe
PT Cruiser
PT Convertible
Mazda 3 hatchback
Accord LX (4 cyl)
CR-V LX AWD
Prius

Which price class I go will depend on where I am financially in a year... hopin' for the $20ker, but will definitely be ok with a good $15ker.

If anyone has any comments to add on the above choices, feel free... you guys definitely know your cars.

backy · February 2004

If you are looking at the Civic LX, Corolla LE, and Mazda3, you should definitely look at the Elantra GT. You can get one with every option for under $15k, plus it offers a hatchback version which Civic and Corolla don't. And if your finances aren't as good as you'd like, check out the Elantra GLS, which comes well-equipped for under $13k after rebates and discounts. The Focus is also a good bet for a car under $15k--even Click and Clack have put their stamp of approval on it now, and the '05 model will have a mild redesign. If you are going to wait a year, you should also check out the '05 Spectra--yes, it's a Kia, but fully redesigned for '05 and all indications are it will be a very good small car, with a VVT engine, standard side curtains, and slick styling.

tom_slick · February 2004

Thanks for the advice, but I'm a bit leery of Ford and the Koreans right now. Yes, Hyundai and Kia have fixed much of their past poor reliability, but their resale values are still lagging and I don't want to take a bath if I have to sell the car.

Ford Focus- man, that thing was a recall nightmare, wasn't it? Again... yeah, I know, they've improved since then, but still I feel more comfortable with a company that got it more or less right the first time. Ford is having a lot of problems lately, IMO. So is Chrysler, though suprisingly GM seems to be making something of a comeback.

backy · February 2004

I guess you don't want to consider the Mazda3, then, with all that Ford content. ;-) If you are concerned about resale value, Honda and Toyota are your best bets. Mazda doesn't fare much better than Ford or Hyundai in that area.

micweb · February 2004

2005 Vibe is on display for early release.

micweb · February 2004

I currently own a Scion xA with stick shift and 5,000 miles, but in 2002 had an Echo with automatic for 7,000 miles. It's been my mother's car for about 14 months and now has only 10,000 miles, but it needed some warranty work from Toyota, so I loaned her one of my cars and brought the Echo back north. While I have it, I can't resist upgrading the Echo, partly for the fun of it, and partly before I do anything to the Scion xA which I might regret, and some of the upgrades are pertinent to this discussion (I also posted this to the xB discussion, since this xA discussion doesn't have many enthusiast posts).

I am surprised how responsive the Echo is, even with an automatic. I guess that is the benefit of being about 400 pounds lighter than the Scion xA. I have to say the Echo automatic is about as perky as the xA with stick, although of corse the stick on the xA is more fun to drive.

Likewise, although I don't have a tachometer to confirm it, the engine on the Echo with the automatic seems a lot less "busy" than the engine on my Scion xA stickshift. One person posted an rpm calculator which indicated 75mph on the Echo automatic is about 3,000 rpm, which may be right and compares favorably to the 3,750 rpm at the same speed on the Scion xA.

The Echo automatic seems a tad - but only a touch - noiser than the stick shift Scion xA, which is surpising considering a good portion of the 400 pound weight differential on the Scion xA supposedly went into sound proofing. At highway cruise, the main difference in noise is some wind buffeting of the driver window on the Echo; this may be a factory defect and not a design weakness. Engine noise is low on both cars, noise up through the tires is similar. That having been said, the Scion feels much better than the Echo - solid, quite, deluxe. The Echo feels a little "tinny." But I can't put my finger on why, because the radio test - how loud I have to turn the radio on to hear it at highway speeds - indicates both cars are similar.

Anyway, I dropped in a K&N air filter on the Echo (also fits the Scion, so relevant to xA owners) to see if there was any performance increase, and swapped out the factory muffler for a Dynomax Super Turbo, the 17709 verions which is 7" round and 18" long (ditto - fits the Scion xA with same set up; well I think it does, the overhang on the xA is obviously much less than the Echo). This new muffler is claimed to breathe much better than factory stock, but is very, very quiet. Truth is, I don't notice much difference in pep after the changes, but the motor doesn't seem to "roar" as much when it throws a downshift on a freeway onramp. Before there was a fair amount of pep, but a lot of roar, now there is a fair amount of pep, and a little growl. In other words, the factory system is not "choking" this motor, but it isn't the best "aurally."

It does seem the Echo is stronger than I remembered. I attribute this to two things: Toyota engines are really tight, and once they break in will rev more freely and pull better; and now that I am long away from the break in period on the Echo, I use the throttle much more aggresively - I am not worried about hurting the car, and not worried about gas mileage - I just want to see what the car can do. Driven this way, the Echo is surprisingly sporty. I wish my Scion xA were 400 pounds lighter! But then, my Scion xA would probably "feel" more like a stripped down Corolla (which is how the Echo feels) and less like a miniature Lexus (which is how the xA feels).

One piece of curiosity when the Echo, muffler was removed, is that there was no electrical plug into the muffler. The Echo brochure and website indicate that there is supposed to be an electrically operated "cut out" in the muffler that opens and closes based on engine load and rpm, to allow better breathing when performance demands it. In fact, there is NO electrical lead to the muffler. Maybe it's in the resonator - the resonator before the muffler is about as big as some Civic sport compact mufflers, and almost as big as the stock muffler, and in fact the car wasn't that loud with the stock muffler off altogether (the muffler shop tried Flowmaster and Magnaflow mufflers before I settled on the Super Turbo).

So why am I reporting this? Because on my xA, I get a boom/resonating noise between 65 and 80. It's about the only thing I don't like about the xA (other than the laughable "trunk") and I'd like to get rid of the droning noise. My bet is a Super Turbo will do the job, at a lot less cost (and possibly less noise) than the TRD aftermarket muffler. The overall increase in exhaust noise will be less, and in fact the Super Turbo has a nice "sound" to it.

I paid $165 for parts and installation - $120 of that was a parts charge for the Dynomax 17709 muffler which is no longer current stock (the 17710 is the same size, slightly larger input and output, but easily adaptable to the Echo's tiny pipe size). I found out after the fact that you can mail order Dynomax's for considerably less - the 17710 mail order is only $67!

Any one else done intake or exhaust work yet?

muffin_man · February 2004

Great write up.

sambhar · February 2004

I am planning to buy a Scion xA. I have a couple of questions regarding the options. First of I have a comment about the options. I think they are pricey. Anyway, here are my questions:

1) What does the cold air induction system do? Is it worth getting this option?
2) Same question for the Front Strut Tie Bar.
3) Does one have to buy the entire security package priced at $ 499 to get a remote keyless entry?!!

Any other advice and comments are welcome.

Thanks,

Sam

fdanna · February 2004

Anyone have an inside scoop on cruise control? This is a major hurdle for me because of the amount of driving I do. I don't want aftermarket unless maybe you can have Toyota install it from the Echo parts bin.

carlisimo · February 2004

Cold air induction systems feed the engine 'cold' air from under the wheel fender (instead of air that's warmed up in the engine compartment). I haven't used one but they're known to make the throttle more responsive and have a nice sound. Some say they add power to an engine it's only a couple of hp, only noticeable at high rpm, and varies per car. Probably worth it if you like driving spiritedly (and drive stick... I suspect an automatic transmission would get rid of the responsiveness advantage and keep you away from the high rpms that CAIs are best in).

The front strut tie bar increases handling, but only near the limit. Farther from the limit, it won't be noticeable. For most people, it's a purely asthetic thing... there are more effective mods if you're trying to increase handling.

scootertrash · February 2004

I was told by a Scion staffer at the SEMA show that the strut tie bar stiffens up the whole body structure and is a good investment. THE CAI makes a loud sucking sound and that's about it.

Sylvia · February 2004

A writer for a national news publication is working on a story that seeks to find out what young people want in their cars. Any Scion owners out there? Anyone shop a Scion and decide against it? If neither, what do you like? If youre under 25 years old and recently bought a car or will do so very soon, the writer would like to talk to you. You must be willing to be quoted by name. Send an email with your phone number to carguy147@hotmail.com no later than Tuesday, February 2/24/04 and an interview time can be setup.

wale_bate1 · February 2004

I came across this body kit after seeing something similar in the parking lot at the local Safeway:

Now, I'm no fan of 2" drops and 19" wheels and 30-series rubber, but this looks really good to me otherwise. The grille is a huge improvement just on its own!

If they start offering a super or turbo and go disc at all four corners, I'm interested. Very hip little ride.

benevolence6gc · February 2004

looks so very cute, I just want to hug it.

backy · February 2004

That's what the photos look like to me.

wale_bate1 · March 2004

Well, it is pretty much a mini Matrix after all, isn't it?

Wait, are we saying Matrix is eee-vil?

:O

jlgolden · March 2004

I have contacted Scion twice regarding cruise control, specifically asking if the ECHO add-on system is compatible. They responnded that cruise should not be added to the XA or XB. This oversight makes thes cars useless to highway commuters!

tom_slick · March 2004

Couldn't agree more- cruise control is a useful (and relatively cheap) feature. This one of the cars' few glaring weaknesses. Hope they rectify it for '05.

fdanna · March 2004

I'm guessing that either 1) by the offical North East June Launch or 2) by Model Year 2005, there will be a cruise control option.

I wonder if you could get one from the Japanese version.

muffin_man · March 2004

It's interesting how some people like cruise control so much. I rarely use it. Maybe on very long stretches of open road, LA - Vegas or something.

a_l_hubcaps · March 2004

fdanna-

Just FYI, the Northeast launch already happened (2/1/04). Haven't seen one on the road here in PA yet though...

-Andrew L

Scion xA

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