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My impression is that about 90% of Forester/Outback owners are extremely happy with their cars, but about 10% have very bad experiences and hate them. It would be interesting for someone to do a study and determine why the same vehicles would be viewed so radically different for some.
Let me paraphrase:
My impression is that about yy% of pick your model owners are extremely happy with their cars, but about zz% have very bad experiences and hate them.
This applies to any car. Imagine those Toyota fans with the sludged up engine, or the Honda fans with their dead trannies.
Subaruscars on the road today, there is sure to be some oddball type of issue/problem in a percentage of cars. That is the way it is. Hopefully these issues/problems are not global design defects.But somebody is going to report them and when we hear about them, we are going to scratch or shake our heads.
Also, better selling cars will register more complaints. But that doesn't mean your odds are worse. There are more good ones, too.
CR at least gathers a big enough sample size to be meaningful. Plus they look at what % of cars have problems, so if you want to know what your odds are of getting a reliable car, the data is more meaningful.
I didn't say the Forester (one R, by the way) would be better off road. It has more clearance, but the Grand Vitara's low range and optional skid plates would make it the better choice if you do more than light duty off roading.
-juice
Unfortunately there are no standards for what "clearance" means. Subaru may have given the Forester a larger clearance number than Suzuki gave the GV, but I bet the approach and departure angles are inferior on the Forester. Breakover angle is another issue. The GV suffers from lower control arms on the rear wheels that are typical for independent rear suspension and are a problem in deep ruts. The Escape/Tribute has a good clearance number also, but next time you're behind one, take a look at the control arms. At least the GV's are tucked up a bit and look substantial. A raw "clearance" number ignores many critical issues.
Softer suspension, gearing to allow crawling, and underbody vulnerability can be even harder to evaluate, but are important factors related to clearance.
At least Subaru does offer a rear skid plate (aftermarket supplies front ones) and the front/rear struts are out of the way.
Here's a pic of mine, you get an idea how clean the underside is. The lowest point is the front cross member, that's what you see sticking down.
-juice
some off-roading. I admit, it needs some prep to do more but it could
be done fairly simply. Check out the pics in my post on my Carspace. The photos don't show it well but this trail was pretty steep. Low range is a must here! I'd be very curious to see the Subaru, Ford, Saturn or Rav4 make it up here. If you're game, I'll take you there.
Mild Idaho 4WD trail
I have a rear skid plate but I'd probably add a front one before going on that trail. At least they are readily available since a lot of Subaru owners do Rally Cross.
-juice
If low range was not an advantage in some conditions, no vehicle would be equipped with it. Subaru hasn't offered a low range since about 1980. The GV does. Case dismissed.
Check out this thread written by markcincinatti to see how a BMW X5 handles difficult trails.
markcincinnati, "BMW X3" #2854, 11 Sep 2006 12:51 pm
Subaru still sells a Forester with a low-range in places like Australia. Oddly enough, you can also get one in Puerto Rico, last I heard, and that's a US Territory. :shades:
We had a member from PR that was active on these boards, but he hasn't posted in a while.
-juice
i've gotten myselg in a couple of situations where i needed it. if i didn't have it, i wouldn't have gone there.
Last winter, the GV always effortlessly made it to the top on the stock tires, without chains. Believe me, we passed many vehicles parked, or mounting chains. One day when leaving, I picked up a couple on foot at the top parking lot. Several km's down the road, I dropped them off at their vehicle - an X5. I suspect they must have lost their nerve going up and parked, since I'm sure the X5 could have gone as far as I did, but still...
Fortunately for the X5 owners I picked up, they had the luck to experience being coddled in the GV's elegant cabin, surrounded by exquisite wood-grain trim and the finest leather surfaces.
Interesting that the Forester is made with a low range in some markets. I wonder if they beefed up the drivetrain on that one.
Unlike in the US, most owners do actually go wander off pavement, and Subarus are used by Park Rangers and the like to get to those places.
I got a set of snow tires for my Forester, so I'll get to try those for the first time in a few months. Can't wait. It was already great in snow...
Best of all they were a gift.
-juice
There are situations where even a Subaru, Rav4, CR-V and the like, without low range can tackle a steep hill as long as it's not too long so you don't exhaust your momentum and no rocks to stop you. I learned way back when my Jeep was still mostly stock that just because it had low range it didn't mean it could go anywhere. It is just one component of the total package. In case of the GV and like vehicles in stock form it could also get you into trouble since with it you can now attempt terrain others without low range can't even try but it doesn't mean you'll complete it. For that you'd need to add lift and taller more aggressive tires for clearance and traction and of course underside protection from the inevitable. You'd need to disconnect the front sway bar and might still hit places where a solid diff locker would be needed. At the end each trail is different and it's a fine line as to what works and what doesn't on a specific one.
The trail in the pictures is in N. Virginia, in the George Washington National Forest. It's about 6 miles long with an average gradient of 20% and some places pegging 40%. Conditions can vary greatly depending on weather. When I was there it was rutted out with cross-flow washouts that were deep enough that I scraped the front plastic air dam and the rear license plate holder several times. It is also covered in several sections with rocks ranging from baseball size to basketball size requiring some spotting to get through unscaved. It's mostly used by dirt bikers and ATV riders who were looking at me when I was there like I was a fish out of water.
It's a legal OHV trail and if anybody want to try it out I'd be glad to organize a trail ride may it be a Subaru wagon or a pimped CR-V owner. :P I don't like to ride alone and there are great scenic trails leading to the trail with camping sites alongside. Fall is coming and I definitely want to get out there a few more times. So let me know...
You will see of course that it could always use more clearance and suspension articulation but it does very well as it is! I do whish that it had more sensors for the traction control so the wheel without traction wouldn't have to spin a full turn before the system engaged.
However, a 2" easy-to-bolt-on lift kit is already available and there is room for 2" oversized tires. Add some skid plates and it becomes a whole different animal!
Here's a video of Subaru dealers testing the Forester up against some competition. The on-demand AWD systems don't fare well...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4999142340359932162
-juice
I heard the Toyota 4Runner has multiple sensors for example but don't quote me on it. It would also be easy to install a proper differential locker into the legendary Toyota 8" rear axle but that's a whole different class of vehicle alltogether. For what the Suzuki is and for the money it seems to work well enough.
-juice
-juice
I mean it's certainly impressive but wonder how hard would a long steep trail be on the transmission... The other video posted shows the advantages of a mechanical type center differential vs. a clutch type. If I'm not mistaken the Subaru has a Torsen type, right? The Grand Vitara also has a mechanical center diff, plus it's rear wheel drive with up to 50% torque to the front and of course it has a low range. You could basically do a hill like that all day long without a worry.
It's actually more useful for a novice to learn stick.
-juice
-Frank
Among the discussions you'll find are:
New Subaru Forester Owners - Give Us Your Report!
Subaru Forester: MPG-Real World Numbers
Subaru Forester Tire/Wheel Questions
Subaru Forester Transmission Questions
Forester Body Work: Fixing Dents and Dings
Forester Interior & Passenger Comfort Questions
Subaru Forester Engine Issues
Subaru Forester Brake Questions
Subaru Forester Electrical/Lighting Issues
How Much Can The Forester Carry?
Please be sure to check the discussion list for an appropriate discussion whenyou are ready to post. If you have a question or issue that doesn't appear to fit one of the existing discussions on the list, please feel free to start up a new discussion.
Thanks for your understanding and assistance as we move through this reorganization of the forums.
Rather than try to create all the "logical" comparison discussions for "Forester vs ____", we'll let those evolve as users out there are shopping different vehicles.
Since we're here in the Forester Group, the only naming convention I'd ask you toremember would be to put the Forester in the title first, followed by the other vehicle, as in :
Subaru Forester vs Mazda CX-7
Time to link to my Outback off-roading pic again:
link
-mike
The tires on the Blazer are now an outdated design that would not have nearly the traction yours do in this circumstance. They have meaty tread blocks, but not much in the way of sipes. Probably they're also a harder compound. In addition, the flying snow in the photo of the struggling Blazer makes me think that it did not have a posi-traction rear axle, or a locked locker. It's pretty useless to have a 4x4 on snow without some form of traction control.
Our '06 Grand Vitara has vastly superior traction on snow compared to the '91 Pathfinder it replaced, even with the Pathfinder having a posi rear axle. This is due to an ideal weight distribution and a traction control system, certainly not because of the GV's oem tires.
Can you get a low range on the new Santa Fe? An automatic is a reasonable substitute for a low range, until you have to do very prolonged steep uphill or descents on very rough roads.
I bet that blazer would kick the Santa-Fe's butt if it were rock climbing or mudding.
-mike
Can't wait to do some mudding this summer. But for now I'm having to much fun in the snow. Which I prefer since it is easier to clean the underside afterwards.
Not sure if the Blazer has a posi-traction rear axle. I think so but definitely no locker. Seems like the back sliding action when it was going uphill was cause more by the tires trying to catch up to the front. Seems like the 4WD system is not distributing the power evenly back to front.
On the Santa Fe I have a 50/50 lock button. It's harder to tell if it's splitting the power evenly since it is normally front bias. But since I was able to stop and go on the hill and not him...
When you guys take your GF or Subaru out in the snow,mud. Do you leave the traction control on? I tried both and had a hard time telling a difference when I was doing stop and go on the hill. Apart with ESC and TC on I had a warning light in the dash blinking when I was spinning and going nowhere.
-mike
Did you click on the thumbnails? The pictures blow up and are quite easy for an old guy like met to see. :confuse:
-mike