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Ford Focus Hatchback ZX3 - Part XI

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    zx3beastzx3beast Member Posts: 661
    did you replace stock wheels with same exact wheels?
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    silver_bulletsilver_bullet Member Posts: 1,339
    Yes, I located some new car take-off wheels without tires and bought them, then shipped them to the Tire Rack to have the new tires mounted and balanced. They returned the package ready to bolt on the car. The wheels that come on our Zs are well made, acceptably lightweight, and fit properly. Since I like the way they look, I didn't see any reason to replace them with aftermarket wheels. The P6000s I got are not available from just any tire shop - they are V speed rated summer tires, and quite an improvement over the all-season tires Ford selected. Just my opinion, but I think 15" wheels with 60 series tires are a great combination for street-driven cars that have to deal with real world road hazards; the trick is to fit a more performance oriented tire.
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    zx3beastzx3beast Member Posts: 661
    very clever! can you believe firestone has tire
    problems again? remember the infamous firestone 500
    in the past? i also like stock wheels as well.any
    trade-offs between stock tire and the pirellis?
    i tend to like whats on now,but i believe it has
    more to do with the z suspension then the goodyears.as with anything else,i am trying to adapt and make sense out of all the terms and ratings on the tires.i know it is supposed to be simpler.but hey man,im stick in the sixties,and im
    not talking tires.
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    whyfordwhyford Member Posts: 50
    I'm not going to go reading all the posts but i have a few questions and a possible reason for your rotors warping etal...

    When you first bought your car were the brakes fine for awhile?

    Did the brakes squeal after about 5-10 minutes of driving?

    Did you have a problem with your brakes after an oil change/fluid top up?

    The reason i ask these questions is that IF your brake fluid had some other type of fluid put in or was contaminated what happens is that the inside of your brake line will swell up(heat) causing the calipers (brakes) to close. This would cause squealing and if driven over a long distance or time frame (and this may happen in as little as ten to twenty minutes) the friction caused by the brake pads being in effect 'braked' onto the rotors would warp them.

    I think you mentioned you were a woman so here's what i would do (or else bring this scenario up with your Mechanic) get a turkey baster bulb thingy...and slowly draw off the fluid from your brake reservoir and squeeze it out into a small cup.

    If i am correct the fluid will look like oil/vinegar mixture with your brake fluid at the bottom and little pools of a 'different' liquid floating at the top.

    IF this is the case then new brake lines/Master Cylinder(NOT REBUILT or you will be in trouble soon) New brake pads and rotors $$$$$$ Warranty?

    I have not read all of your posts so maybe i missed something.

    Anyone else have an opinion on my thoughts?

    And while i'm here (Carlady did not say that we moved at the end of the last part X...)

    Figured out why the dealer did not find a problem with my A/C! I had it on high all the way there and when i brought it in to be tested, being the first customer that morning...well that was silly on my part wasn't it? The A/C was cold by then!

    Inched the seat recline position forward one notch and i reach the steering wheel now. Guess i had to slowly acclimatise myself to the li'l hatchback:)


    Great Forum going here and i'm sorry if i sound negative about my ZX-3 but there is only so much Rah-Rah that i can take.

    You know that DIESEL sound someone keeps meantioning? Yep it's there! It's the overhead valves doing what they do sounding like they should! Not loud but sounding well....kinda funky.

    To the person with the engine that ran without oil due to a Mechanics error (Ouch) ask for the extended warranty for no cost to yourself and call it even. Fair?

    Nuff said?

    W :)
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    whyfordwhyford Member Posts: 50
    I concur,

    Said it in an earlier post but these rims are VERY GOOD.

    Bridgestone/Firestone recalled 20,000,000 tires today that were installed on SUVs! Watch the stock drop even more today! A good Short? Not that i follow stocks but...

    What tires are you putting on and why? Just give me a post # and i will try to find it.

    Thanks.
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    brettzx3brettzx3 Member Posts: 28
    YO! The Monte is a great car. It's what they call "dark carmine metallic red." Looks like a deep burgundy if you ask me. I don't know much about the engine. It's an SS, so I'm guessing that it's faster than the non-SS. Fully loaded - black leather interior, sun-roof, power everything, cruise, tilt, great stereo w/ controls on the steering wheel (CD/tape, etc.) and lots of other nice, but practically useless, bells and whistles. We traded in our loaded 97 Cougar XR7 for the Monte. The Cougar started having major transmission problems immediately after the warranty ended, so we dumped it. Not paying for work like that while still paying for the car - no way. But, I gotta say, I still like driving my ZX3 best. It's not as fast as the Monte, but it is a lot more fun to drive. We went on vacation a week and a half ago to Ocean City, NJ for a week and took the Monte. I missed my car! I couldn't wait to drive it. I was volunteering to drive everywhere when we got home!
    Listening to everyone here, I think I really want to tint my windows. I've been looking at my car thinking how much better it would look that way. Where do you go to get something like that done?
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    gogogophergogogopher Member Posts: 11
    Hi All,
    Ordered a Yellow 2001 ZX3 last friday and am warned that this may take 8-10 weeks for delivery. I don't distrust the dealer, but www.ford.com shows a 1.5% rebate to the dealer for 2001 models ordered after Sept 1. How can I make sure the car was ordered friday and I'm not being put off till Sept 1?? Is 8-10 weeks a standard delivery time?
    PS anyone have pics of the optional 16" wheels that come w/ the 2001?
    Thanks,
    Wilson
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    gabegarwickgabegarwick Member Posts: 127
    Welcome!!

    8-10 weeks is certainly what most of us found to be an accurate wait for our ZX3s. From what I've heard the assembly plant isn't even starting production of the 2001 models until mid-August.

    Ah found the rebate thingy...
    "3% of the Total MSRP + additional 1.25% rebate of Total Invoice to Blue Oval Dealers for 2001 models invoiced after September 1, 2000"

    Don't forget though, the dealer is already getting 3% of the MSRP, that's right. MSRP.
    Heck, that 1.25% only amounts to around $200...
    Of course, if it makes you feel better, you could always offer to make up the 1.25% out of your pocket.... (thought so) :)
    As for making sure the order is in the system, you could ask for a printout of your order. Or get the salesperson to show you your order on the computer.

    So how much over/under invoice are you getting yours for?
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    gogogophergogogopher Member Posts: 11
    Well, maybe the dealer is telling me all they know. They said they didn't even know when the 2001 would start production. I'll just call them biweekly to inquire like I would for any long lead time product.

    As for cost, it was nearly "no-haggle" they had a deal; invoice - dealer holdback. Not bad, there we're a couple of near-bogus fees like "advertising" and "handling" (plus I'm paying $5 for gas!?) But these add up to less than $300, so total cost still something below invoice. I can live with that....
    -Wilson
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    jamers85jamers85 Member Posts: 100
    like they said my car was ready to be picked up after replacing the faulty alternator. just crossing my fingers that the new one will last for up to 60,000 miles.
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    zgrrrlzgrrrl Member Posts: 147

    Whyford, thanks for the advice (although I am not sure what "I think you said you were a woman, so what I would do is get a turkey baster......" means... Assuming I OWN one which I don't, but it's besides the point I need my problem fixed!)

    :)

    So, this is what the short version is. Brakes has SQUEALED since day one, they finally said they'd replace the pads to see if it would helped. They changed the oil and replaced the pads the weekend before last. Then this past weekend I went on a road trip and that's when the shaking started (about 4 days later). I brought it in Mon, and they didn't get to it, then resurfaced the pads yesterday. There is no shaking but now you guys have me all freaked out. contamination? ask for new ones? they already think of me as the crazy lady and run when they see my silver Z.

    SB, is this true that this contamination could happen?

    And if I were to check it with the baster, do I just fill it on my own again, I mean - just take a portion of it, or try to get as much out as I can then top it off?

    Oy.
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    vadpvadp Member Posts: 1,025
    whyford,
    yes that valve noise IS normal.
    What I mention is a transaxle noise, TRANSAXLE.
    In fact my yesterday visit to the dealership havn't cleared anything.
    Yes, they can hear the TRANNY diesel noise.
    Ford is aware of the problem-tnanks to you who complain. And Ford still maintain its position that it's normal. Normal my a%#!!!
    I don't want to sound like a broken record.
    It's just another thing to look for for those of you who still waiting for delivery of your brand new Focus. I'm not aware of any other car including the lowly Hyndai's and Kia's experiencing this kind of a trouble.
    This is the only issue I have with my car.
    I finally got used to the slight hesitation on light throttle at 2000 RPM.
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    jamers85jamers85 Member Posts: 100
    how do you know if your rotors are warped? i've having this weird braking experience every time i break over rough surfaces. First time i experienced it was over some small hardened rock like snow. when press the brake it was find until i went over them. It felt like something was caught between my break pads and the rotors. It also felt like the breaking was weakend. After that i thought some snow rock got into my calipers so i didn't think about it much. But later on everytime i apply my brakes and go over a pothole cover or not smoothly paved road i get that same experience. rough breaking and it almost like your not stoping...it feels like it's
    slipping. Anybody else having the same problem?
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    zgrrrlzgrrrl Member Posts: 147

    Jamers: there was terrible shaking this past when I braked and that's how I knew...but that slippin you're talking about happens too....always had.
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    silver_bulletsilver_bullet Member Posts: 1,339
    I understand the concern the other poster had about some idiot putting the incorrect fluid into the brake fluid reservoir, but that would be pretty far down on my list of suspects. If the fluid appears to be a nice clean amber color when you peek into the reservoir, I wouldn't sweat it for now. I do think it would be best to "start over" by having fresh pads installed with new rotors, but the dealer sounds like they are resisting that. Just keep your documentation if you have to appeal to a higher authority, like the zone representative. When I have problems like this, I just fix them - it is much easier than screwing around with an incompetent service dept. I realize this doesn't help you much, however.
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    zgrrrlzgrrrl Member Posts: 147

    I just called the service department and my "adivsor" wasn't there but the lady said if they can fix the problem with resurfacing that is what they do (unless they are defective). Wouldn't you say rotors that warp in a month and a half are defective? Even if I do brake hard everyonceinawhile that can't be right....errr...right?

    I guess that's the only way they'll give me new ones. Prove they are "defective" ...I guess next month when it happens again?

    I really hate this.
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    silver_bulletsilver_bullet Member Posts: 1,339
    Zgrrrl, if you lived close by, I'd say come on over and just let me fix it for you. Stuff like this makes owning a car a major pain. A rotor is a piece of machined cast iron - pretty hard for it to be "defective", unless it wasn't machined correctly (not likely), or it was cracked. Its what you do to it that makes it "defective". If you TRULY want to be happy and put all this behind you, write to the zone rep and request that they replace the rotors and pads together, and flush your brake hydraulic system (just in cast there is the remote possibility of system contamination). If some moron really did put a foreign fluid into the brake system, it would need to come into contact with all the seals and hoses before something bad happens, and that would take some time - I'd not worry about this scenario. If they refuse, I'd just bite the bullet and buy my own parts and fix it myself (do you have any friends who are capable of doing this very straightforward job?), and chalk it up to experience.
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    zgrrrlzgrrrl Member Posts: 147


    I'd be able to do this "straightforward" work myself. If I would I could, trust me. And if I lived anywhere near TX I'd be over in a heart beat. But the truth of the matter is it's not that straightforward of work for some. Trust me, I have no problems with cars that have errr...problems....I've owned many of them. But I've never owned a new car. I know it's a new model and all ... bugs and all ...but this seems just odd.

    My point is I've been braking the Z more carefully than any other car I've owned before and never have I had any problems with brakes other than general wear.

    For the record I do understand things happen especially with the Focus being a new car (at least my clutch spring and alternator aren't kaputz! :) )

    I just shouldn't bring all my frustration to the board.

    Sorry all!


    Happy driving! :)
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    silver_bulletsilver_bullet Member Posts: 1,339
    Zgrrrl, you should be satisfied with your purchase. Brake problems such as yours aren't normal - Ford needs to make it right. Take your concerns to the zone service rep, and file a complaint with the NHTSA if you think one is merited. Jac Nasser likes to run his mouth about how great Ford is - get some of his underlings to prove it to you! For the record, don't think the purchase of a high-end luxury car would have spared you from this treatment - I have a good friend who has a similar problem with his Lexus, and the service manager there basically told him to live with it...

    Am I the only one who thinks most of this "total quality assurance... our customers come first..." bluster we get force fed through the media is just so much BS?
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    zx3zx3 Member Posts: 167
    The Boston area is where you'd have to go. That's a long drive from Philly !
    So, I'll let you know how the custom seat-cover job turns out on my z.

    I've selected a 2-color combination. Black, with pumpkin-color seats and seatback. The shop had on display, a Recaro seat with that color-combo.
    Man was that smashing! Knock yer eyes out!!
    You'd have to see it to believe, how it was both refined and tasteful, as well as an absolutely brilliant color-combo.
    By brilliant, I mean that orange pumpkin color is Bright! And yet, it blends subtly with the black areas that surround it on all sides.
    Boy, Recaro really knows how to pick "jaw-dropping" colors that are NOT loud or cheap looking. Let those durn coffee spills (I'm a slob) do their worst! I'll be able keep those vinyl seats clean, quite easily. "Nuff said.....
    zx3
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    pcleveland2pcleveland2 Member Posts: 516
    zgrrl,
    Please, please, please, brake normally, not carefully. If you brake carefully, you may not stop quick enough! Don't know what you call carefully, but if your on the brakes longer at lighter pressure, they will get just as hot, maybe hotter. Drive the way you would normally drive and brake the way you would normally brake.

    If somethings gonna break, you want it to happen while it's under warranty.

    Pat
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    zgrrrlzgrrrl Member Posts: 147


    Pat,

    I guess when *I* say carefully it's what is NORMAL for most people. I have been pretty rough on the brakes in the past, but not with the new car. So, you see my "carefully" is what most people do "normally".

    Make sense ? hehehe sorry guys! I promise no more posts today!
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    vadpvadp Member Posts: 1,025
    Light effort longer stops create more heat?
    That's something new to me.
    Sorry for the interruption. ;)
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    zx3borizx3bori Member Posts: 3
    Does anybody notice that when you step on the brakes in the Focus with no key in the ignition, the brakes light do NOT come on????
    I tried this on A Honda and a Dodge and they brake lights turn on. This morning I took my ZX3 to get the brake switch replaced (they broke it when they change the clutch master cyn.) and tried 2 more focus's to see what happen and the brake lights did not turn on either.
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    tognetertogneter Member Posts: 245
    Just thought I'd interject with my periodic "6000-miles-and-nary-a-single-problem" post, just in case someone gets in here and thinks we all have problems.

    zgrrrl, I think SB's right. Raise some fuss. They'll take care of you.
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    powerslidepowerslide Member Posts: 48
    Whenever I take my cars in for brake work, I always tell the service manager (insist) to hand torque the lug nuts to proper specs. They usually grumble something like 'our impact wrenches are preset to give the proper torque'. BULL. Improper torque on the lugs can cause rotor warpage. And I tell them I will watch to make sure they do it. Is that unreasonable? No, for my car it isn't.
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    zx3zx3 Member Posts: 167
    Vadp, your quotes from Royal Purple synthetic oil Co. say not to switch to synthetic till "first scheduled oil change" in order to "give rings time to seat properly".
    Ford says the first scheduled oil change for the z is "3000-5000 miles" (Ford Motor Co "Scheduled Services" brochure, available at Ford dealer).
    I switched at 1300 miles. Obviously, way too early. I will rectify this immediately.
    Thanks Vadp, for the heads-up.
    zx3
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    vadpvadp Member Posts: 1,025
    zx3

    I'm planning to switch to synth. around 8-10K.
    Frankly I don't see any reason for the early change.
    At 3800 I'm still running on original 'break in' oil. At 5K RPM my engine still feels very tight.
    The whole purpose of switching to synth. oil as I see it is to keep the engine sludge free and well protected during extreme heat/cold conditions.
    The initial break-in miles will not create any sygnificant amount of deposits. And I don't believe that the engine will create enough of 'metal shavings' to clog up the filter.
    Actually it tends to filter better the dirtier it gets. The oil flow suffers though.
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    mattozzi_ajmattozzi_aj Member Posts: 24
    I had a similar problem with my brakes on a dodge dakota a few years back-you might want them to check your emergency brakes cable. The one on my truck was too tight and I went thru rotors like crazy til i had to set my emergency brakes and the cable snapped. When I took the truck in to have the cable replaced at the dealer-they put it on too tight again. I stopped at a brake shop on the way home because I could smell the brakes as I drove. Within a matter of minutes the problem was discovered. I hope this might help. By the way- I have a big red g-shock if anyone is interested in a trade! aj
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    radnorzradnorz Member Posts: 3
    hi all - relatively new owner (5300 mi., 2 mos.) - phenomenal car; two concerns: i)engine bogs/hesitates slightly but noticably when accelerating slowly in 3rd - 5th (particularly w/AC on); and ii) honk when engaging alarm is incredibly loud!! - is there any way to silence this? It's waking up my entire street every night when I get home!

    thanks for the help...
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    vadpvadp Member Posts: 1,025
    Hey togneter (I'm still lurking around here just to contradict you) :)
    So you are saying that your car doesn't have any bog/hesitation, your transaxle doesn't make any funny/diesel/clicking noises, your fuel gauge always worked perfectly, there are no rattles in the dashboard and your breaks don't give you a heart attack??
    Man, lucky you.
    I wonder if we can find someone else with the same perfect 100% defect free Focus.
    Please let us know.
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    tognetertogneter Member Posts: 245
    I have a slight transaxle noise that I can hear when I'm in a tunnel. I've listened to this, and I think it's normal. Unless what you and rgarner are getting is much louder, I think yours might be normal too.

    My gas gauge did that thing exactly once.

    I have tried over and over to detect the hesitation you all speak of...to no avail. Now, I admit a lack of power at 1800-2000 RPM, but I attribute that to the fact that MY ENGINE IS AT 1800-2000 RPM--where there's no torque. No hesitation as far as I can tell. And I'm very sensitive to these things.

    Brakes are perfect. No rusty drums, and I get a mild squeal only first thing in the morning after it's rained. Stops after about a mile.


    That's it...really. My only issue is that I'm averaging about 24 MPG for 70/30 city/hwy driving. But that might have more to do with the weight of my foot =]
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    zx3beastzx3beast Member Posts: 661
    zgrrrl - i had a similar problem with a 1994 ford
    tempo.it was common knowledge within the factory
    and ford dealerships that they had installed rotors
    that warped pre-maturely.i had them replaced under
    warranty- free of charge.the car had approx.18,000
    miles on it.problem was prevalent with the escort
    and tempo.the best part is that i didnt even have
    to be my usual persistent pain in the a..they were
    replaced without a fuss.i wouldnt let them get a way with the re-surface band-aid.by the way, do you
    use a self-basting turkey?
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    zx3zx3 Member Posts: 167
    Vadp, you asked Togneter to point out someone who has no transaxle noises, dashboard noises, brake-troubles, etc.
    Look no further, here I am.
    2K miles, flawless so far. The svce dept has never seen me in with a problem.
    A flawless z. (Knock on wood).
    Thanks again for synth info.
    zx3
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    zx3beastzx3beast Member Posts: 661
    zx3- sounds like a fine choice. will you post pics?
    or is there a link? dont sweat that oil change.
    it will be just fine.enjoy!
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    zx3beastzx3beast Member Posts: 661
    good point, the fun factor.one cant really appreciate the little z till you get behind the
    wheel.i never get tired of driving it.its the only
    car i ever owned where the newness hasnt worn off
    after a month.i look forward to driving it everyday.its something thats not easy to explain
    but seems to be common among all z owners. chevy
    did a real nice job with the monte.i see many on the road here in bucks co.the deer are plentiful
    here.those that run and those that didnt run fast enough.nice weekend coming up,weather-wise.enjoy!
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    xgearheadxgearhead Member Posts: 2
    Despite what may have been posted so far, metal does indeed just warp. Without going into detail, this happens after cyclical heating and cooling. The geometry of the part is major influencer - thin planer surfaces warp the most. Today's lower mass rotors are far more prone to warping than the thick heavy rotors of our parents. The good news is that after repeated temperature cycling the condition stabilizes. (Veteran engine builders actually prefer to rebore seasoned (used) engines because they are stable.) Resurfacing the warped but stable rotors is better than buying new "unseasoned" rotors. Don't worry about the heat dissipation of resurfaced rotors because heat dissipation is related to surface area more so than thickness or mass. The only downside of resurfacing is that it reduces the thickness and therefore the remaining usable life of the rotor, but then again the alternative is discarding the rotor for a new unseasoned one that will probably warp too.

    P.S. Rotor removal is really easy on most fwd cars and many local parts stores can resurface rotors for less than the cost of 30 minutes labor at your quality Ford/GM/Daimler Dealer.
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    zx3beastzx3beast Member Posts: 661
    very good explanation.i have always driven a stick-
    no rotor problems.the rest of the family drives auto- they go through a set of rotors earlier than
    they should.brakes wear much faster than they should as well.that is good point you made regarding todays lower mass rotors.thank you!
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    gabegarwickgabegarwick Member Posts: 127
    If you have the factory remote with the car, you should be able to just press the 'lock' button on the remote just once. The doors will lock, the "alarm" will arm, and the parking lights should flash. Only if you press the lock button again after arming the system, this is when the horn should sound, and yes, mine is loud also.

    I've got the power locks as I assume you do also? When getting out, I usually just lock the door and shut it. This is supposed to arm it as well...
    I'll look in the owner's manual...

    Gabe
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    gabegarwickgabegarwick Member Posts: 127
    Picked up mine the end of March. 2400 miles on it now. No problems yet! (unless you count the time I spend keeping the brake dust off the front rims) :)

    Gabe
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    stanky73stanky73 Member Posts: 14
    Thanks so much Christine for the brown baby G watch. This is so much cooler and believe it or not smaller than the pink full size G with rubber pink wristband I got in the mail! I have it on now at work. I am still trying to figure out the purpose of the PLAY button though.

    Thanks again,
    Joe
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    domingos34domingos34 Member Posts: 27
    hi guys.my Z has 1400 miles on the odo and so far no problems,not one.what a nice little car ,the faster u go the better morestable it gets. love it.the ZX3 R will be a turbo charged 2.0 zetec engine puttung out 220 horses.but it still just a concept car so far.will have big tires,all wheel drive,4 wheel antilock brakes etc... we will see what happens.
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    brettzx3brettzx3 Member Posts: 28
    Joe, Glad it got to you in one piece. Gotta love the "expensive" packaging I put it in. It's SMALLER than the one you received?? That pink one must be massive!!

    zx3beast - yup, it's supposed to be a nice weekend. It'll be nice when this H/H/H stuff comes to an end! I think I'll fill 'er up and go for a spin with NO a/c. I have relatives in Bucks ya know. Got some in Trevose, and some in/around Langhorne. It's nice out there. Was up that way for a b-day party last month.
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    zgrrrlzgrrrl Member Posts: 147

    Y'all have been talking about the placement of the brake lights...how people don't tend to see them. Well, I agree about the SUV's brake lights being as high, so that's not my biggest concern.

    My Z is silver and I know it's sometimes hard to see so I keep my lights on. But I cannot COUNT how many times I've had to honk and blare my horn to get some jerk (mainly in the SUV's) OUT of my lane. They are trying to do a lane change and I don't know if they don't see me, or they didn't even check. But it's happening A LOT. More so than in any other car I've driven.

    Just a shared thought.
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    fgaydosfgaydos Member Posts: 319
    The September issue tests the Focus and the result is;;


    "The best small sedan we tested"

    Hooray for us!

    I'm away for a week,
    CU, try not to talk too much while I'm gone.:>)
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    beanboybeanboy Member Posts: 442
    Drove my a ZTS sedan with manual (7500 miles on it), and I was expecting some more oomph, seemed rather timid. Any chance Ford will fiddle with the ratios a bit to improve acceleration performance? Doesn't the old ZX2 sport the same motor? Seemed at least a couple of seconds slower.

    -Beanboy
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    drebe73drebe73 Member Posts: 243
    Very cool, one of my favorite bands is Smashing Pumpkins, guess your color choice is ment to be. How do those vinyl seats feel after the car has been sitting in 98 degree weather all day?
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    silver_bulletsilver_bullet Member Posts: 1,339
    The manual sidesteps this figure, and just says the lugs should be "tight". Does anyone know the actual recommended torque spec?
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    lunaquestlunaquest Member Posts: 10
    Has anyone here test drove the Toyota Echo yet?
    yeah it's not attractive, but it sure as hell has one up on the focus when it comes to power and drivability IMHO. AND Toyota reliability. oh, yeah and price, the Echo is a little cheaper even with all the options. I'm torn between getting the Echo or 2001 Focus-the Focus just looks so good though!!
    Any opinions?
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    tickbittytickbitty Member Posts: 250
    vadp, 8000 on mine with not a rattle, noise or problem. Decent mileage too, 30-39 or so!

    I liked the echo at first but they don't make a hatchback here yet. Big trunk but I insist on the hatch! Also echo was actually pretty expensive and it is hard to find one without auto and all the options that drive up the price.
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