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I guess my point is this. All the cars in this discussion are so damn good that they can bring tears to your eyes. I love them all and would never back myself into a corner by swearing by just one. They are all different and that is good thing.
The Lexus LS460 may resemble the BMW 7 series, but that does not mean they will drive like a BMW.
Maybe external styling is a deal maker or breaker for many car buyers. For me its the drivetrain and chassis that is the deal maker or breaker.
grandaddy,
I agree! My wife still drives a 83 MB300D and she will get angry whenever I suggest a new car. I would prefer it if her car had a stick.
I thought new every two was extravagant. 50 cars in fewer years! We should all be so lucky.
I agree with you that some are fairly dogmatic in their statements and preferences, but we all carry our biases. For instance, I actually do like the looks of "some" Buicks, but I would never buy one simply because of my personal stereotype (and I am not talking age, here. It has been my personal experience that whenever I find someone driving erratically or timidly, in an inordinate number of cases, they are driving Buicks. Many of them are much younger than me).
Welcome to the board!
Speaking for myself only, I am partly here "for the sake of arguement"...I enjoy debate for its own sake (back in high school 25 years ago, we didn't have a debate club...so I started one) and in fact don't care quite so much about these issues as it might appear from my posts.
As the old saying goes, I spent a lot of money over the years on cars, women, and liquor. The rest of it I just pissed away!!
1)My laptop crashed on me over the holidays and though I had just about everything backed up the one thing I didn't was my address book.
2)Concerning the movies in the lexus.jp, i want to see the movies without interuption and becoz my DSL keeps lagging i cant, please anyone can help me if their is a way to download the movies so i can watch them offline??
Please wait while BMWindows is starting up...
(picture a moving blue bar here)
Audi was a nobody in the 80's in the US. I already addressed the issue about why the press thought the original LS looked like a Mercedes: Mercedes was by far the biggest luxury car seller back then, the most frequently-seen bearer of traits associated with luxury cars that had been in place since circa 1906: slab side, broad shoulder and high belt lines. Frankly, the original LS400 had more commonality in the front with Audi V8 than with Mercedes 420SE, but hey as far as the press and public was concerned, what the heck was Audi V8. It's a common phenomenom: most people call generic big trucks Mack Trucks when it bears down on them in the rear window, regardless whether the truck is actually Volvo, Mitsubishi or Daimler; it's not necessarily Volvo, Mitsu and Daimler-Benz are copying Mack.
Sorry but I cant help you without a "Lexus Assistance Writer" .
"I will make a prediction now: In two years the Lexus LS 460 will be considered the finest luxury car available.... Toyota will usurp Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Cadillac and Audi in one fell swoop...the luxury market will be turned upside down.."
http://www.autoextremist.com/page2.shtml (near the bottom of the page)
And I'd prefer Lexian over Lexican.
He surely is opinionated, though!
ljflx,
I would expect the LS to succeed as well, but I do NOT think it will be at the sacrifice of Mercedes Benz as much as it will hurt BMW. IMO, BMW relies too heavily on the 3-series. The LS will hurt the 5 and the 7 due to the price advantage, and the 3, while the bread and butter for BMW, is going to get nibbled at (I said just nibbled at) by the IS 250 and the IS 350. How can BMW rely so heavily on one model and sustain itself? I think it is dangerous.
Lurking around the corner will be Lexus's new SUV's as well, and you can bet that they will also be a threat. Lexus can do even better with their beautiful SUV's by fixing those horrible flip-flop third row seats, and replacing them with Acura-style fold-flat seats. Also, the rear hatch on the GX 470 is dysfunctional when parked close to another vehicle in the back. And it opens to the wrong side for curb-side convenience. The point here is not to criticize the GX version of the 4-Runner or the LX version of the Land Cruiser, but to be on the lookout for newer and BETTER things to come from Lexus in the SUV arena.
I think we should ask oac what he thinks those Lexus dealers will do with all those old Beetles coming in for trade-ins soon? Of course that can't happen, since he believes a German car fan could never appreciate a Lexus, anyway.
Watch out BMW, Lexus is going to bite you. Darn . . . I said it AGAIN. Too much Starbucks.
TagMan
Again - I see MB prices dropping in the future.
I do not think that the new S-Class will be hurt as much as you seem to think. The E has lost itself and is slated for a major update. The sooner the better on that, because the E has historically represented a great value in the MB lineup. The new one should help unless the styling comes out wrong (like the C-Coupe or the current R). I would expect it to be beautiful, though. Even a new C is coming soon and from what little I am able to gather, these three models will NOT just be downsized versions of the same basic theme (which we have all discussed here at length), and may be a bit more unique unto themselves. But we will see about that.
Your GX is very nice IMO, but I couldn't deal with those third-row seats, nor could my wife, and I know you are willing to be honest about them. They need to be improved with the next generation, and likely will be. For now at least, I think that makes the Acura MDX the better choice.
I think the situation at Jaguar is a tragedy. The XJ and new XK are beautiful aluminum works of art, and simply ooze style, IMO. Reliability history is so hard to overcome, even though they have drastically improved. I am NOT referring to the S-type and X-type Jags, as I personally only consider the XJ to be the true Jaguar sedan of significance.
We differ on our outlook for BMW. I admire them for their engineering. As I remember back on my years of driving, I cannot help but remember that there was never a doubt about what kind of car that nasty maniac on the freeway was driving when he was zipping in and out of traffic going much faster then the rest of us. It was (and still is) so often a BMW. Not necessarily the best association to make with the Bimmer driver, but let's be realistic, that's what BMW's are about. But not to EVERYONE who looks at them, and that is where I think the Lexus will hurt BMW. Only time will tell, and I hope I am wrong on this one, because I do not want BMW to stumble.
Toyota/Lexus/Scion...and Jaguar you said?
TagMan
The GX is a great ride and real quiet and luxurious, and it's a beauty in white with ash interior - but I can see areas for improvement. A tad longer and wider would solve its main problems. The new 2006 feels a lot tighter than the 2004 to me and it's a lot more of the solid Lexus build feel I'm so used to. It's also far more powerful and yet gets slightly better gas mileage in my experience so far. I had no issues or problems at all with my 2004 but it was rushed to market - IMO. I can definitely feel the stronger Lexus build quaity in the 2006 and thought it was just me but independently my wife said the same thing the other day.
BTW - I think the S will do fine and I see the segment growing in size.
???????????????? can you elaborate on this when you get a chance? I've got to go for now and I'll definately check back on this later. Thanks!
The XJ and XK are 'third way' cars in this group. They offer a distinct alternative to vehicles from Germany and Japan.
The current cars seem to be very reliable. Poor dependability is an albatross Jaguar carried for years.
I hope the XJ and new XK meet with a better reception in 2006.
The BMW 7 series does stumble and will be discontinued! IMO the 7 series is an ostenatitious cruiser with sports pretensions. At least the Lexus LS and MB S is focused primarily on luxury cruising. The costs of maintaining the 7 series for 10 years would cause several reported "riches to rags stories".
BMW SUV sales takes a major hit and BMW withdraws from the SUV business. BMW SUVs are nothing more than a sell-out to appease the US market.
And last but not least I wish BMW would strictly focus on small to mid sized sports sedans since that is the segment they have perfected.(no need for them to relentlessly pursue perfection in this segment).
Ofcourse reality dictates the soon-to-be BMW minivans that will be called anything but minivans. Reality dictates more dumbed down technology for Bimmers. Reality dictates less BMWs with sticks. Reality dictates that future Bimmers become more luxurious at the cost of performance.
Reality sucks!
I agree. IMO the only aspects of the LS/Camry butts that are similar are the license nook, and there's a bumper cut/edge/shape that is similar too, but nothing worth dwelling on. However, I think the Camry design is clunky. In that realm the new Accord floats my boat a lot better and so does the Sonata.
I still haven't analyzed LF-Sh/LS differences. I'm too busy... so I'll leave y'all to your afternoon coffee klatch and crumpets... later...
;-)
link title
After four hours of such testing, the volunteers and the test staff were surprised how dependent on modern technologies everyone had become, losing skills such as “braking cadence” once taught to drivers. “This test also showed how far car design has come,” said Graham Griffiths of the Ultimate Car Control, an advanced driver training school. "Modern cars not only have stability and traction control, they also have better tires, better suspension and overall dynamics. Technology has moved on and drivers have been left behind.”
just give me the engine, the steering wheel, the steptronic transmission and the brakes.
With all of the very active and great conversation that has gone on here lately, this discussion is ending up on the Hot Topics list - sometimes that attracts some who wish to disrupt. They can't disrupt if you don't respond.
Feel free to drop me an email at any time. Thanks!
Quite a few posters on the BMW boards have purchased or leased their BMWs that way and have nothing but praise for it.
Just being able to drive unrestricted on the Autobahn should make it an experience one would never forget.
In the Tampa area?? Hpowders you'l be sayiny humina, humina, humina 100 times over when that angry group of BMW drivers corners you.
Ah, but did they elect to leave the A/C and stereo out? If they left those things in, are they still "real driving enthusiasts"?
Here are a few juicy parts:
On VW: "Best Reason to Skip a Display Altogether. The VW exhibit was so dull and uninspiring that it's no wonder they didn't schedule a press conference during the media days. The only thing they had to talk about was the new VW Passat Wagon (OMG!),..."
On MB: "Second-Best Reason to Skip a Display Altogether. We'd like to get a line on whatever it is the folks at Mercedes-Benz are smoking, because it must be truly special. The fact that this company would show up at the Detroit Auto Show with the monumentally embarrassing "GL" Class defies explanation - and it's one of the leading candidates in our annual Autoextremist "Answer to the Question that Absolutely No One is Asking" Sweepstakes. Combine that with the dreadfully overwrought R-Class, and you can't help but step back and say, "These guys are good." Not...."
On BMW: "We are BMW and we have a cool display, thank you very much. BMW had more vehicles crammed in their display than just about anybody. The highlights for most people were the M6 and the M5, but we liked the bikes best...."
On Audi: "Well, it's better than "Q7." The Audi Roadjet concept made its debut in Detroit and it was another car that had designers buzzing. With clearly the most elegant and emotional version of Audi's new "face" its main calling card, the Roadjet had the usual number of lame show car features that defy logic, like four individual entertainment centers (is anybody actually driving these days?) and a built-in espresso maker, but it also has Audi's new 7-speed Direct Shift Gearbox too. The name?..."
On Toyota: "If you hovered quietly near the all-new Lexus LS460, you could observe the steady parade of German-speaking executives gathering for a good long look at their future nightmare. They weren't smiling or joking. It was like watching athletes watching game film of a competitor that displayed no weaknesses whatsoever - and they didn't have a clue as to what they were going to do to stop them on game day. With the new Lexus LS460, Toyota has made it clear that the often-heard refrain of, "Yeah, it's pretty good and they have a great customer service program, but it's no Mercedes and it's certainly no BMW" will be a thing of the past. Toyota is shedding its "humble competitor" persona with their new luxury flagship, and they're going right for the Germans' jugular - and on paper at least, they have an excellent shot at dethroning the status quo..."
Wow... Interesting read, indeed !!!!
On paper at least the Lexus GS had an excellent shot at dethroning the 5 series.
On paper at least the Lexus IS had an excellent shot at dethroning the 3 series.
On paper at least LS460 has an excellent shot at dethroning the the MB S Class or the BMW 7 series.
What is on paper is not necessarily true in the form of metal. Despite this I agree it is a hilarious article. But more hilarious than true!
He is very perceptive and seems to have a (fairly) unbiased viewpoint. His 'on the table' summaries are usually great as well as his 'rant' column.
It comes out every Wednesday.
You all know I love German cars, but I'll pick on the German cars for a second here. I am reminded of the simple down-to-earth simplicity of a cup holder, for example. We all know that for years this feature commonly known to every American man, women, and child as the "cupholder" was basically banned from German cars. Little was it known to the Germans that Americans were born with the constitutional right to a cupholder. They just plain didn't get it! How ridiculous and out-of-touch. The excuses went on for years as to how "unecessary" and "anti-driving" it was, and then . . . suddenly . . . the Germans not only offered a cupholder, but they MASTERED the cupholder, and it then appeared as a "contraption" that would zip out of the dash or console with little plastic fingers and a spring loaded support, and basically spill your coffee all over the place just before snapping into a bunch of plastic pieces and springs.
OK enough of my rambling . . . my point is to use this very simple example of how sometimes the corporate level is just plain out-of-touch and they just don't "get it".
And then there's Lexus.
Know what I mean?
TagMan
The LS does NOT need any paper listing of features to dethrone the 7 and S. It already did, 15 of the last 17 years.... Get it ?
I notice you missed the part about all the German brands, or that part about Audi with an espresso machine, and 4 entertainment centers in the car ?? Convenient oversight, eh ??? Talk about gadgets, gimmicks, and no-shows.....The Germans fit all the bills...
Theory is interesting, but would Jaguar be the one to fit the bill successfully?
oac - when you say "dethrone", what exactly are you referring to?
When I first saw the pics of the LS, I immediately thought "BMW 7 series". Except (to me) it looks a little better than a 7. But the styling IS derivative, and if my first reaction is the same as many others, it can't be just a "coincidence".
The thing is, I don't get why it's that big of an issue on this board. Lexus will sell a ton of them. And they'll do it because the Lexus is at least as good as the BMW and MB, and $15k-$20k cheaper (probably). But you know what? Hyundai is doing the same thing at the bottom end of the market to the Japanese. The Sonata has been getting better and better, to basically equal the Japanese competition in quality & reliability, while maintaining a significant price advantage.
Face it, not everyone (or even most people) that buy a BMW 7 series do it because it is a driver's (or "performance") vehicle. They do so because it is big and luxurious and has a good name. And guess what? That's the same reason a lot of people will buy a Lexus. Add "less expensive" and "more reliable" into the mix, and you can see why the LS is a compelling option, not just for S-Class buyers, but for 7-series buyers as well.
Fair disclosure: I drive an Audi (an A3, mind you, not an A8, which my budget will not yet allow for), before anyone accuses me of being a "Lexus-lover" or something like that.
Yes I get it. Lower priced luxury items usually sell at greater volume.
It will be interesting to see how Hyundai's new RWD H.E.L.M. will sell? A luxury Hyundai may be ridiculed at first but may end up selling at the highest volume because of its price. Does that not sound familiar to the Lexus LS, especially 16 years ago?
This is all the more true when they are equal or better and are more reliable after five years than a brand new one from the competition.
The LS is more reliable. Equal or better? Is that so? Supply and demand dictates otherwise! If the LS was equal or better than all the offerings from German marques then they would be faced with the same situation Jaguar is faced with today.
Everybody here can have an opinion which car is better. But in the end markets dictate the truth.