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The difference between Lexus and MB on the technology front is that Lexus pours its' money into things you enjoy all the time. A radio may be something un-important to some people on this board but to Lexus buyers its more important than ABC.
A Lexus buyer wants a supreme luxury ride with a royalty like cabin. A BMW buyer doesn't. They prefer a hard riding car. That is called carving out your customer base and has nothing to do with which car is better. The fact that the 7 has never sold more than 18k cars in a year is an indication of where the preferences lie in this niche.
Does anyone in his right mind think that Toyota, who has a financial position MB and BMW can only dream of, couldn't match MB innovations if it thought it was prudent? They take a more common sense American approach while MB and BMW duke it out to be king of Europe.
Quiet is not a Lexus only option. I tested a new LS430 and my '98 750 back to back one day. The BMW was noticably more quiet and rode smoother than the Lexus. To be fair, I suspect the dual pane windows unique to the 750(in BMWs line) made this possible. None of these cars is going to make your ears bleed, you are splitting hairs on this subject.
ljflx, you make a very important point. These cars all have sublte niches in the high lux arena. Lexus offers value and excellent customer care. They cover most of the bases and provide a price leader in the segment. BMW used to be the home of the sporty driver. I am sadly dissappointed by the new 7, a column shifter in a drivers car??? Yet they raise the bar again with the latest design. MB seems to have several irons in the fire. They are providing technological innovation with ABC and brake by wire systems. They are trying to take a bite out of BMWs niche with the AMG cars, every line has one now. They are admittedly playing catch-up to Lexus in customer service and initial quality. All of this and still trying to foster its long heritage.
"innovative climate control" on a '95 LS400?? You mean the one they plagarized from the new in '92 S-Class? Actually they didn't have four zone until the LS430 did they?
To deny that Lexus takes others ideas and implements them after the competition brings them to market would be to deny the facts.
ljflx,
What are you talking about? ABC is used anytime you manuver the car. It keeps the driver and
passengers from being tossed around and keeps the body level. I find it ironic that the features that get knocked are NOT on Lexus cars. People don't buy 60K cars based on their stereos, if any do that's saddening. Oh Toyota will try to match these features, once they've had time to study them.
M
The biggest stumbling block in this discussion is different priorities when buying a car. I think the Lexus guys are correct, many people would prefer a better stereo system over a better suspension system. Many lux car buyers are most concerned about the quiet smooth ride, not the cars handling. Many lux car buyers have absolutely no need for the "extras" MB provides, thus the extra money would be spent foolishly.
I personally have a different set of priorities. After several driving schools and tons of track time in my Porsche, I have developed an affinity for the way a car drives. The BMW and MB products cater to this more than the Lexus. I also greatly prefer the styling on the Germans, just a personal preferance again.
I am not alone in these preferances. I have many friends in the P-car club that choose luxo sedans on the same criteria. I have yet to see a Lexus in one of these guys garages. Nothing wrong with the car, it just appeals to people for different reasons. I don't think being a snob is one of them, not in my experience anyway.
I also believe the Germans are better engineered cars. The premium price is relfected in areas you do not see. This is convienient for Lexus, the less demanding (performance wise) Lexus owners will never notice, or care. I do, I pay the premium, I enjoy the superior feel of my cars. I think they are worth every extra penny. I certainly don't blame you for feeling otherwise.
nealm1,
And you're reasoning is why Lexus cars are looked up as great cars, but no fun to drive, basically a yawning coffin. This whole thing got started with one word innovations. Neither of you can point to a true innovation like ABC or SBC from Lexus. Yeah and I guess anyone of these cars here has an exhaust that will wake up the neighbors right. Your ridiculous statement about exhuasts fits. Yawn.
M
Merc, I think we found a lexus snob! nealm1 is throwing some stones here. Well buddy, take a look at my stable, and how I use them. You will see pics of my V12 cars, my Porsche on the racetrack and my Geleandewagen way off the road. I buy my vehicles with purposeful use in mind. I find the German vehicles are better at their targeted purpose, unlike Lexus which seems to take the "shotgun" approach. They make cars for people who just want you to think that they are conneseurs. They appeal to the masses, certainly not to auto enthusiasts. http://homepage.mac.com/bwinterholm
M
Please debate your thoughts and opinions WITHOUT the name-calling and personal insults. If you must include personal attacks in your messages, it sure looks like you don't have any facts or opinions worth stating.
Besides, you know the Membership Agreement requires civil and respectful discourse.
Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board
You act like I'm jealous that Lexus doesn't have it? Who cares. If they developed it and offered it I'd pass on it. My point is simple - Lexus is trying to appeal to the masses and makes strategic decisions based on things those masses will appreciate the most. That is always a smart business strategy. Besides do you really think a company like Lexus couldn't develop it?? They have virtually unlimited capital resources and they reside in a country where engineers have to construct buildings to withstand powerful earthquakes. You think thoses engineers couldn't do whatever they wanted with a car?
Could they do it? I think it is foolish to assume otherwise. You are correct, they have the resources to be a leader.
One notion that seems to lurk around here, and any discussion of premium autos, is the one that says people buy MB just for status. I think that is a bit insulting to the owners of any of these cars.You generally do not amass the wealth to buy one of these cars by being foolish or wasteful. I do not think I am a big minority among buyers of the S-Class or 7 series. There are tons of people that prefer the driving feel of the MB. They are willing to pay the premium for that largely intangible feature. Undoubtably the Lexus is a fine machine, and a superb value at that. There must be plenty of people that also value the German driving experience. I think you are kidding yourself when you assume MB or BMW buyers are only concerned with the badge on the hood. If you really did not like the car that much better, what is the reason for spending sooo much more. I just do not accept that it is because the owners are shallow badge snobs. Like I stated before, that has definately NOT been my experience.
I would be willing to bet that in many cases, speaking to the owner of a new MB or BMW would yeild a very different conversation than the one with a new Lexus owner. The MB and BMW guys I know could site all kinds of techno info about their cars. I think the Lexus owner is much less likely to be interested in the mechanical workings of their car. Different strokes for different folks. Just don't pass of MB and BMW owners a dupes because they could have had the Lexus for less. Accept that they may just really appreciate their cars for very different reasons than you love your Lexus.
A Lexus may be cheaper but it still is in the luxury car class(READ: Wasted money!). People buy luxury cars because they want luxury cars. They don't need luxury cars. That would make a Lexus driver just as snobby, under your own conditions, as a Mercedes driver.
Get over it...Mercedes owners drive their cars for their own reasons, which may or may not be what you think they are. To some it is worth the extra money, and for you it isnt. No big deal.
The bottom line is most people who own or lease these cars make 250-500k or more per year and have accumulated wealth or have equity positions that will give them future wealth. There are many who consider anyone in that bracket to either be a snob, be perceived as a snob or be eligible to be called a snob. What can you do?
ljflx,
Overengineering as you put it is part of the Mercedes way or tradition. How do you know that ABC is hardly ever ordered? For one it's standard on the S600/CL600, S55, CL500, CL55 and new SL500 so it's out there in decent numbers, and there people right here on Edmunds in the S-Class topic that have it on their S500's so some do think it's a legitimate option. I'm sure Lexus could come up with something like ABC, they've had 3 years to study it complements of MB. If they have all this engineering prowess why don't they ever come up with something first? Not everyone wants a car that appeals to everyone, some want something that stands out from the herd. ABC is one of the reasons MB cars do.
v12power,
Post # 1318, exactly!
M
Merc1 - you confuse business strategies with auto enthusiast desires. Lexus has executed their strategy spectacularly. They don't care about a few auto enthusiast opinions. Guaranteed though - that will change over time probably in the next couple of years.
By the way I saw two 745i's tonight, in black. They both looked good to me (this time). The look is sort of growing on me.
M
IJFX - You make some good points as well. Lexus has performed their business plan well. I know that for awhile Lexus offered a European sport ride for their LS430, but have discontinued it as their customers didn't perfer that ride on a Lexus. I know we perfer that type of ride on our BMW and P-car, not our Lexus.
The first to introduce a technical innovation or a safety innovation, I would have to give to MB and BMW. But not a day goes by that I wouldn't love to see MB, P-car and BMW have a stereo and a DVD nav system like Lexus.
All of these marques have their good and bad points but have you ever asked someone who owns both a BMW /Lexus or a MB/Lexus which one they would give up? I believe most will say, neither one. I know, we wouldn't.
By the way anyone reading the GS board where there is a discussion that just about all Lexus models are on the verge of redesign. My Lexus sales guy had told me the LS430 may get a complete redesign for 2004 but someone there is saying it will actually happen for 2003.
It's Ok with me because when it comes to the sport ride, BMW wins hands down. I use the Lexus when comfort in paramount and the BMW for a large sporty vehicle and the Porsche is the sports car of the bunch.
I haven't heard about the redsign for Lexus although I have heard about the new larger SUV. I have a feeling with the 745i taking the first major leap, MBZ, Audi and Lexus will be scrambling for something to compete with it.
The LS430 will NOT be redesigned for 2003. I think what's being confused here is the difference between a facelift and a redesign. The LS430 may get a facelift for 2003, more power, equipment, new front and rear ends, but no car of this class (or cars period) gets a total redesign in just 2 years, thats way too expensive even for Toyota.
M
I think shortening the time frames is a natural business phenomena as only the strongest capital rich companies survive so you weed out the weaker players. They either go away or get acquired. I also think that the time period to re-design is more tied to units sold in such an enviroment. Lexus did sell 8,000 cars (33%) over what they projected in that first year.
BTW, ABC is debuting on the next E-class, so tecnology does trickle down.
Merc1 - If the S8 will be 2 to 3 yrs away before a new body style, too bad. Audi's all wheel drive system, aluminum body/frame, and sport package with a new shell might finally give MB & BMW a run for there money in America. I know we are still considering one, but the 745i at this point is so far ahead, it's hard to wait for Audi to catch up.
Audi. They are taken very seriously in Europe, but you're right about the their U.S. situation. Part of this is Audi's own fault because they always hesitate when bringing their best cars here. The A8 didn't get here until 1997, though it came out in 1994. They wasted time with the A8L and S8. That may be changing because they're bringing the giant-killer RS6(!) here right after the Euro introduction.
Infiniti. They're just seemingly lost. The Q45 doesn't fit, it's bigger and more powerful than anyone's mid-level cars, but can't match most bigger luxury cars. They touted the Q45 as a sports sedan, but it's really too large for that, then it's styling is not right to me. Now they have another car coming that will slot in between the I35 and the Q45, more confusion. They make some good cars, but not "great" ones. The only Infiniti I see that will be truly "hot" will be the FX45 crossover.
bernard1,
Well there will be a new A8 soon. I predict it will be introduced at the Paris show this fall and go on sale in the U.S. next spring as a 2004 model, with a new S8 a year later. I say if you like the style of the 745i go for it, nothing in this segment (right now) is more advanced, and the 745i reeks of quality and still delivers that BMW driving feel.
M
Here is what they posted as a solution:
"just a few comments I would like to add! at just about 2/3 of the way to full trottle is max power.the last 1/3 is to tell the trans to down shift.(APP)also if you turn on the cruise and set it to well below your driveing speed like 35 on the high way and drive with your foot at 75 it will almost never downshift!"
Thanks to mark45678. Check out the topic "Allison shiftiness when towing" for the remainder of the discussion. However it seems that others have found this technique to work with success.
Good luck.
I would like to get in touch with Big Al.
I am calling you a troll because it is inpolite to go around to every single forum, even those that do not bring up mercedes, just so you can spout your drivel and meaningless opinion.
Alfa Romeo, while making cars that are extremely fun to drive, have hardly been known for quality. In fact, I wouldnt be suprised if I saw Alfa Romeo down with Ford on JD Power surveys. I found it odd that you go and downplay Mercedes Benz for having "bad" quality(which is still in the top ten), yet you drive an Alfa.
P.S. Do you know anything about Audi's dealer network or customer service, or is it just an assumption? In the Chicagoland area at least, Audi has some of the most beautiful dealers I have ever seen. Much better than some of the local Acura, BMW, MB dealers
Can't speak to their dealerships because my BMW dealer is also the Porsche and Audi Dealer.
It's all about your local dealers. If you don't like them, don't patronize them.
Dealerships: They really do vary from place to place. The Audi dealers here (Chicago area), Continental, Shaumburg, Laurel are all brand new state of the art facilities, with true professionals at work. Lexus dealers are the same, except for their people. They act like they're doing YOU a favor by showing you a car. I swear you'd think they were selling Bentleys.
M
M
And on the value of a "tuned" A6, your response is internally inconsistent: "It's not about "sales" it's about . . . rub-off sales on "lesser" A6 models." Unless Audi is less of a player than I imagined, everything they DO should be "about sales." Otherwise, I pity its shareholders. And I suspect that you are correct that the *perceived* value in such a car is what you call "rub-off"sales on "lesser" models. But that was my point: My perhaps uninformed intuition is that Audi doesn't need these cars to compete with MB or Lexus (as much as perceived value, dealer commitment and luxury), since 99 44/100% of the target customers don't know about or car about "tuned" cars and the relative handful that do won't generate enough PROFITS to make the exercise worthwhile. As for BMW, I just don't know if Audi sees BMW as the real bogie.
Because I think that competition makes all the products of these companies better, I hope Audi begins making irresistable cars and that I end up buying one some day. Because I couldn't care less about "bragging rights [and] image," the fact that they produce a smallish car with unusable horsepower (at least in my urban environment) doesn't make that eventuality any more likely.
IMO this is a realm Lexus will never enter. Maybe this is based on special models not being as profitable. This would keep prices down on mainstream models, as they do not subsidise the specials. I just don't think they can turn out leading edge performance models. Japan has never been successful in that niche. Good value for the masses, not much for real car enthusiasts.
My guess is that v12power is right about BMW, i.e., that the percentage of BMW buyers that know and care about M cars is much higher than for the others, and that M accounts for a higher percentage of BMW sales than do "S" and AMG for Audi and MB respectively. I bet the answer for MB is that AMG amounts to no more than decimal dust. I also believe that he is right that it makes business sense for BMW, even if the number of M sales is low since it reinforces BMW's image as a performance leader. I bet v12 is wrong about the margins on the S and AMG cars; my guess is that they are sold at MUCH higher margins that the regular cars - but perhaps not high enough to justify the cap costs.
As for whether Lexus will compete in this category at some point, I suppose we will have to wait and see. The "L" tuned GS and the IS suggest that they are at least taking a hard look at it. But if they think it doesn't make sense from an ECONOMIC perspective, they won't do it, since being an "image" leader for that sake alone is bad business.
The Audi S4 uses the same powerplant as the A6 2.7T and All Road Quattro. The S6 avant and S8 share the V8. I think these cars are mis-characterized as unique, one-of, type vehicles.
Audi has been late to bring over their best cars which have left them out of the loop to compete with BMW's 540 and M5. Now they are stepping to the plate but must continue to push they perfomance autos including the S8.
Audi has been late to bring over their best cars which have left them out of the loop to compete with BMW's 540 and M5. Now they are stepping to the plate but must continue to push their perfomance autos including the S8.