High End Luxury Cars

esf · February 2007

You took the words out of my mouth.

Four Audis. No reliability issues. Unless you count what I mentioned above (headlight washer cap flying off) as a reliability issue. Granted, these are 1998 models and newer- so it's possible that they were less reliable before that.

Two Lexi ('98 RX300 and '04 RX330). None either, unless you count the speedometer freezing in the RX300 in 2002 as a reliability issue. It could be called that. Our Lexus dealer apologized profusely for the car's behavior.

'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG  '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet  '04 Lexus RX330

esf · February 2007

When I was in New York last August, I somehow managed to get an LS430 to pick us up from the hotel and drive us to the airport. Although it had some wear-'n-tear, I wasn't impressed with the car's quality. It didn't scream "luxury" like the S-Class or A8.

'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG  '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet  '04 Lexus RX330

esf · February 2007

TagMan got an A8L? In addition to his Carrera S?

I'm jealous...

'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG  '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet  '04 Lexus RX330

tagman · February 2007

TagMan got an A8L? In addition to his Carrera S?

No esf... sorry. No such luck. Hpowders was talking about waiting for my impression of the A8L test drive.

Slight chance Thursday, depending upon schedule. Since the BMW and the Audi dealerships are next door to each other, I'd like to have enough time, if possible, to test drive both the Bimmer and the Audi.

TagMan

hpowders · February 2007

As Tagman says, he wants to test drive the A8L and the BMW 7 also.

I have given up on the BMW 7. BMW does not provide enough luxury to compete in the HELC price range. Its interior is not too dissimilar to that found in the 545.

My HELC interest is in the A8. I sat in one and I liked the seats and felt that I was engulfed by a luxurious interior. But, I haven't driven one yet.

jlbl · February 2007

European High Court Attorney has just proposed the Court to suspend the German Law that forbids Porsche to take executive control of VW, being Porsche as it is the major VW shareholder with 27% of the stock. The Attorney has proposed also to allow Porsche, confronting the German Law, to make a hostile offer in order to buy more VW shares.

It is thought that European High Court will very probably follow the advice of the Attorney for the shake of free concurrence within Europe. German Law actually protects the right of the German Federal Government and the State of Low Saxon, which are VW shareholders as well, to have executive control of VW.

May be VW will afterwards change for better its strange car model catergories!

Jose

reality2 · February 2007

Well, here is part two of the story from the Financial Times of London:

"Porsche gains de facto control of VW"

------------------------------------------------------------

The State of Lower Saxony under the stewardship of Christian Wulff has given up the battle to prevent Porsche acquiring a 29.9% stake in VW, chairmanship and a number of seats on the Board. This now leaves Porsche free to increase its shareholding in VW from 27.4%. Reported in today's Financial Times, Wendelin Wiedeking will assume executive control of the entire group with Ferdinand Piech as a kind of honorary chairman above him. Given this situation, Porsche does not need to acquire any more shares in VW, although it could if necessary.

-----------------------------------------------------------

It was obvious this was the goal of Porsche and to a certain degree Audi management.

designman · February 2007

Reported in today's Financial Times, Wendelin Wiedeking will assume executive control of the entire group with Ferdinand Piech as a kind of honorary chairman above him.

There's nothing "kind of" about it. If anyone is the Godfather of the German auto industry, it's Piech.

esf · February 2007

I drove the A8 SWB myself, when my wife was going to get one. As it turns out, we're buying a new house instead- new car is delayed until next year. Because of the hike in my house payments, she probably won't end up with a $75-80K HELC like the A8, unless she gets an S 4Matic or A8L that's one or two years old.

To get to the point... the A8 is fabulous. Nimble for its size, and yet it belies all the criticisms with its super-smooth ride. The interior, obviously, is beautiful, and the exterior is timeless. I highly recommend it. The BMW... well, I like it (I like every HELC), but there's no reason to buy it over an A8L. You have to want the badge. The ergonomics are terrible (not just the iDrive- check the seat controls!), and the interior execution, while clearly a step above its lower-priced cousins, is certainly not best-in-class. The driving dynamics are good, of course, but then again, so are the A8's.

'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG  '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet  '04 Lexus RX330

reality2 · February 2007

You are right, there is no "kind of" about it. Piech is in control of the VW-Audi-Porsche empire. Let's call it what it is now - an empire.

lexusguy · February 2007

Let's call it what it is now - an empire.

Which would be fine if Piech wasn't a megalomaniac who believes that the entire VWAG is under his personal control and only he knows how to run the show. His ego is bigger than "Dr.Z" and Mr. Ghosn's combined.

tagman · February 2007

esf - I look forward to driving more of these HELCs in the near future as my schedule will permit, but I am only doing so for the enjoyment and experience... no additional ownership is planned at this time.

TagMan

designman · February 2007

Will be interesting to watch. I'm wondering how the Piech/Wiedeking relationship will play out because with Porsche the family members have a hands-off management agreement, I think. However, Wiedeking is thought of highly.

Just as an FYI, there are some 50 members of the Porsche/Piech family and the average net worth of each member is somewhere around $150 mil.

VW and Porsche. This was in the stars.

dhamilton · February 2007

I agree Tag, For many reasons.

I hope it doesn't jack Audi.

BTW, loved your LS review, very fair, and balanced like Fox news [maybe that's a bad example]

Can't wait to see what you think of the A8. I don't think there is a better looking HELC sedan. Do you?

tagman · February 2007

VW and Porsche. This was in the stars.

I, for one, like the potential I see here.

TagMan

tagman · February 2007

Another blurb on the Chrysler and Mercedes marriage... after a decade, will it lead to an inevitable divorce?

link title

TagMan

houdini1 · February 2007

I think I hear Tami Wynette warming up in the background.

tagman · February 2007

jlbl · February 2007

And I, for two, too.

Jose

designman · February 2007

I'm not sure what to think. I'm thinking it will be fairly uneventful at least for a while in terms of the products but VW stands to benefit by being associated with the Porsche brand. Ditto for Audi. For one thing it's all German unlike the Daimler venture, and there is a familiarity and relationship that goes back a long time. I would think this counts for something.

Another thing is that this protects Porsche Holding which has been the distributor for Porsches, VWs and Audis. This would have been totally threatened if another suitor entered the game. It could be that this was everything behind it to begin with. I believe it was a major part of it. What grows from here is anyone's guess, I guess.

;-)

lexusguy · February 2007

Another blurb on the Chrysler and Mercedes marriage... after a decade, will it lead to an inevitable divorce?

One thing is for sure, a lot of people at Mercedes are definitely not behind "project X" aka "that Mercedes is just a gussied up Chrysler". I'm sure the guys at Lexus NA would love to hear that one.

It will take many more years to even try and undo all of the damage done to Daimler AG by Mr. Schrempp, who presided not just over the Chrysler\Benz "merger", but the failures at Smart, the enormous quality slide at Mercedes, and also all of those bailouts sent to Mitsubishi on an ultimately failed partnership. For as much Criticism as GM and Ford get, they are far better at managing global auto operations than DB.

tagman · February 2007

It will take many more years to even try and undo all of the damage done to Daimler AG by Mr. Schrempp

The sooner, the better.

The domestic manufacturers are in serious trouble. The only hope I see for them is to leapfrog the competition into the future. Will it happen? There is a chance... if survival instincts kick in... soon.

Japanese, European, Korean, and even Chinese players are going to be relentless.

In the end, better products will emerge for buyers regardless of which corporations win or lose.

TagMan

lexusguy · February 2007

Japanese, European, Korean, and even Chinese players are going to be relentless.

Ford and GM have very competitive mainstream products in Europe, but like Lexus, they only have a miniscule slice of the luxury market. Audi probably moves more A4s than European sales of Jaguar and Cadillac combined. Neither the X-type or the BLS changed any of that. Chrysler I don't think has anything. I saw a couple of Jeeps the last time I was over there, but that was it, and there were at least 20 Cayennes to every JGC, if not more.

tagman · February 2007

Ford and GM have very competitive mainstream products in Europe

Unless they are banking on "Europeanizing" the U.S. market, they'll need future-thinking technology and styling to survive here. Fuel economy ratings must also improve as well as reliability. It's time for them to get people excited at the idea of buying a domestic vehicle... or else.

TagMan

blkhemi · February 2007

"...they are far better at managing global auto operations that DB."

I don't think I could've said it any better.

For all of the sub-brands that GM and Ford preside over, they sure know how to make them work, seemingly better than the NA operation.

Ford has finally gotten the bug and has tapped Ford Austrailia to help with the Ford Interceptor and Lincoln MKR concept cars, two cool looking cars that they better put into production, no matter what.

And GM is really about to strike with the Cadillac brand being elevated even further upmarket with the next-gen CTS, DTS, and STS variants. Saturn is really looking good now. And Chevy and Pontiac can now sit next to the Toyota dealership without embarrasment as both brands have great product, even better next year with both brands going RWD.

Chrysler on the other hand, well... When you have brand new '06 Rams and Durango's sitting on the lot for 9 months to this very day, there is a problem. The new Sebring want shake up anything. The Charger/300/Magnum can't survive with great sales forever. The P.T. Cruiser is long in the tooth now. So there are many things Chrysler has to do to even attempt to stay and/or become competitive.

However, I have not lost faith in the domestic sector yet. They've been down before and bounced back. They all depend on us, so I'm not turning away now.

tagman · February 2007

Hemi - I totally agree about Cadillac. IMO, it's a very bright star for GM, and will likely get even brighter next model year with exciting new product updates. Now, if they can trickle enough of that Cadillac magic down the line to Chevrolet, they might just start to pull it off.

TagMan

tagman · February 2007

As a follow up, here's a peak into STS's 2008 interior.

And a short blurb.

link title

TagMan

lexusguy · February 2007

Unless they are banking on "Europeanizing" the U.S. market

It seems like that's exactly what is happening. The top brass at both companies have finally realized that their Euro divisions make great cars. Saturn's got both the Opel Astra and Vectra. From what I've read the Saturn Astra will even make it through with its Euro-quality interior unscathed. The Mondeo is also supposed to make a comeback, and there are plans to sell their award winning S-max van here as well.

I definitely agree that the excitement factor has to go up about 10 notches. Building second-rate Camry and Accord clones is what got them into the mess they are in. As the saying goes, go where the big guys aren't (the big guys in this case being Honda and Toyota). They don't have aggressively styled, RWD sedans with V8s pushing well over 300hp. That's where Detroit needs to be. The "new" Taurus is going to continue to be a dud, but the Interceptor has hit written all over it. Now they just have to actually build the thing, instead of letting it die like the Ford 427 and Lincoln Continental concepts, both of which could've been saving Ford's behind right about now.

lexusguy · February 2007

Chrysler on the other hand, well... When you have brand new '06 Rams and Durango's sitting on the lot for 9 months to this very day, there is a problem. The new Sebring want shake up anything. The Charger/300/Magnum can't survive with great sales forever. The P.T. Cruiser is long in the tooth now. So there are many things Chrysler has to do to even attempt to stay and/or become competitive.

Don't forget about the Chrysler Pacifica, Crossfire, and the Aspen SUV, and the Jeep Commander and Compass, all big fat duds.

drfill · February 2007

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070215/AUTO01/702150397/1148-

But vehicles like the Dakota, Sebring, and Compass don't inspire confidence.

Ford is in worse trouble. I liked the Ford Oasis concept from a couple of years ago. They need to get there with their designs.

DrFill

jlbl · February 2007

"It seems like that's exactly what is happening. The top brass at both companies have finally realized that their Euro divisions make great cars. Saturn's got both the Opel Astra and Vectra. (lexusgay)"

Right. Opel Astra is very popular. Opel Vectra is a well-seller in the Entry LPS niche, as it is Ford Mondeo. The concurrence there is real tight, not only with Series 3 BMW, Series 4 Audi and Series C MB but also with PSA-owned Peugeot and VW-owned Skoda. Both Opel and Ford models have the advantage of being cheaper than the German Gentry. However, they have a variety of good engines, both gasser and diesel, with power and little consume. In particular, Opel Vectra is felt as having a high standard of quality.

So, American corporations are making cars than are successful in Europe. But I do not see all these cars succeeding in the American market. To start with, all are manuals. May be they are too much rough-riders for the fancy of many American drivers, IMO.

On the other hand, Fiat and Citroen (PSA owned as it is Peugeot) have lost a lot of ground in recent times. Fiat has almost disappeared. Citroen gave up the LPS and HELC segments to become best seller of cheaper cars. Now has announced its intention to come back to build more sophisticated cars such as a new C-something model that they say it will be the Tiburon of the XXI Century.

Regards,
Jose

lexusguy · February 2007

Things like spring rates for American roads and making ATs standard equipment are very easy to implement. Moving a lousy car off the lot is not, just ask Chrysler. All of the top entries in the HELC class are world cars, including the Lexus LS. The two developed just for the US market and only sold here, the DTS and Towncar, are considered jokes.

I think the idea that Americans won't like European cars is largely invented. Just look at the 3 series or the E class. Americans generally are not nearly as big on hatches and mini-wagons, but we like well designed vehicles as much as anybody.

mariner7 · February 2007

The trio of Lexus and Acura V10's and Nissan GTR share the MT cover. This is what I think will happen to them.

The Lexus GT will be a viable competitor to the formidable German BMW M6, MB C43 and Bentley Continental. Because Toyota is the most resource-rich car company in the world, and Lexus already proves its luxury worth.

The Acura will fall flat on its not so pretty face. Because Acura has never proven anything in the luxury market, and Honda has a proven record of quitting on its sporty cars after the initial models (NSX, S2000, CRX). Honda might be making this GT just to compete with Toyota!

Nissan makes no secret it wants GTR to beat the Nurburgring record of 7'40 now belonging to 911T. It better hits it to get some street cred, or else it'll be a huge disappointment, one the GTR might never live down. Remember the previous GTR was the first production car ever to round the Ring in less than 8 minutes, so Nissan got a shot! Even if the GTR manages to get the record, Porsche will do anything to get it back, and obviously Porsche can afford to dump a lot more resources in developing its most popular model, the 911, than Nissan will care to develop what will be its least selling model, the GTR.

tagman · February 2007

I think the idea that Americans won't like European cars is largely invented.

While it is true that there are cars that are accepted on both sides of the Atlantic, there are also a great many cars and styles that are sold in Europe that are simply untested here... some that might even be considered bizarre in their appearance, and yet others that are quite interesting.

TagMan

ctsang · February 2007

"Automotive News reported today the Toyotas European auto sales overtook Mercedes Benz in January with 82,404 new Toyotas being registered. Toyota saw a 20.5% increase in sales for January, and premium are Lexus trailed only slightly behind with a 19.8% increase for the month. While Mercedes Sales rose 2.3% the gains were offset by a almost 50% drop in Smart Brand sales as the brand awaits a second generation two-seat car. "

reality2 · February 2007

Here is the latest from Automotive News:

Sources: GM in talks about buying Chrysler group

Jamie LaReau, Jason Stein and Bradford Wernle | | Automotive News / February 16, 2007 - 9:26 am

General Motors is in negotiations to buy the struggling Chrysler group in its entirety, say sources in Germany and the United States.

High-level talks are taking place between DaimlerChrysler AG and GM executives.

Although the two companies have discussed cooperation on a large SUV, say sources at both companies, the potential deal would go beyond limited product development alliances.

Talk of an alliance was first reported last week in Germany's Manager-Magazin.

GM spokesman Tony Cervone declined to comment on the speculation, saying, "We have always said that conversations (between GM and many other parties) have happened all the time, and many times they don't come to fruition."

A Chrysler spokesperson declined to comment. Other sources have reacted skeptically.

Asked about the possible deal, Klaus Franz, GM's top union official in Europe, said acquiring Chrysler would be a "disaster" for the automaker. Franz is vice chairman of the supervisory board at GM Europe's Opel division, based in Germany.

"This is only a step to remain the number-one automaker. The problem is that Chrysler is in the same situation as GM. They don't have the right product portfolio," Franz told Automotive News Europe.

"This would be comparable to GM's alliance with Fiat. And GM lost a lot of money with that decision. I hope GM learned its lesson."

Roman Mathyssek, an analyst for Global Insight in London, also is skeptical of a purchase: "At the end of the day, if they were really to do that, that would not be a cheap option for DaimlerChrysler at the moment. It would be a lot more effective for the DaimlerChrysler group to look at how they can continue their cooperation."

Last week, uncertainty over Chrysler's future increased as DaimlerChrysler CEO Dieter Zetsche said the company was open to all options for the Chrysler group, including a sale.

"All options are on the table," Zetsche said.

Chrysler unveiled a restructuring plan as it posted a $1.4 billion (1.1 billion euro) loss for 2006. That plan calls for cutting 13,000 jobs in North America by 2009.

According to media reports, DaimlerChrysler retained JPMorgan Chase & Co. to consider options for the Chrysler group.

DaimlerChrysler revealed its latest restructuring plan for Chrysler almost six years to the day after its first attempt at shoring up profits. Zetsche ran Chrysler until taking the top spot in Stuttgart last year.

Although growing ranks of shareholders would like to see Chrysler go, selling it is easier said than done. In Cologne, Germany, Bank Sal. Oppenheim analyst Michael Raab estimates it would cost $34 billion to separate the two businesses.

blkhemi · February 2007

A huge improvement.

rockylee · February 2007

Wow, a forum going back to 99' :surprise:

Well I do love that pic and yes that is what is suppose to be the 2008' STS interior.

Rocky

blkhemi · February 2007

for GM to even attempt to purchase anything right now, especially a fledgling automaker like Chrysler.

Chrysler brings absolutely nothing to the table that would help GM, maybe except gaining Chrysler's slice of the pie, which isn't much to began with.

Without Daimler's help, Chrysler isn't much. Sure they have the 300's and Chargers, but where are the bread and butter Camry and Accord models? And if that's the Sebring, then they don't need to play in the class at all as the current Malibu is more competitive than the Sebring.

That leads me to my point. How can a company that is just off life-support itself even have the gall to buy another car company that is one m/y from being mothballed it's self?

GM, on the other hand, has good product. The Impala is as stale as it gets, but they sell them by the boatload. The new Silverado had Toyota rethinking the Tundra's(of all things from GM) interior, and it still bests it in many categories. The Kappa-chassis cars are doing very well, despite the criticism of the cumbersome top and not-a-MX-5 build quality. And of course the GMT-900 SUV's are doing well, right along with the newly released crossovers. So while many of you were praising the chant of Death to GM last year, many of you shall recall that I stood pat and mentioned that they'll be back sooner than we know. Well it's happening, witnessed by Toyota's recant of the number of vehicles to be sold this year, which was supposed to out-do GM and become the #1 automaker. Well GM is not budging off of it's market share piece of pie, and is in fact gaining ground. See, that's what I like about the old farts up at GM. They never mentioned anything like a "New Way Foward" like Ford did, instead they finally fired the old beancounters and got some fresh faces in and fixed the situation.

Chrysler, I don't think no one will touch it with a 10-foot pole. I have a friend in the private equity firm sector who said that they've even been tapping the likes of Goldman Sach and Bear Stearn to see if they're interested. I don't think anyone is listening....

tagman · February 2007

Hummer/Jeep?

Silverado/Ram?

Corvette/Viper?

:confuse:

TagMan

lexusguy · February 2007

Chrysler brings absolutely nothing to the table that would help GM, maybe except gaining Chrysler's slice of the pie, which isn't much to began with.

Not to even mention the enormous product overlap that would result from GM and Chrysler becoming one company. GM and Chrysler are already struggling with serious overlap problems (Compass, Patriot, Liberty anyone?). The last thing GM needs is more models similar to what it already has.

This makes even less sense than the Nissan partnership. Cadillac is strong, Chevy and Saturn are turning around, and even Pontiac is showing real signs of life. Chrysler has nothing but one flash-in-the-pan product from a flash-in-the-pan company. Wait and see what happens to the 300's already dwindling "cool factor" when thousands of them are retired from rental fleets.

rockylee · February 2007

What automakers aren't allowed to have more than one great car in each segment ?

Rocky

tagman · February 2007

Good post.
TM

lexusguy · February 2007

Besides, according to Automotive News, GM still has to merge with Ford before it can merge with Chrysler, after which it will be known as GemoFoChro.

GM is starting to get back on track, but they have to know that in order to stay that way they will need a relentless focus on product and marketing strategy the likes of which the company has never attempted before. They are going to have to claw their marketshare back one tenth of a point at a time. Nobody on the board, and certainly not "the Rick" is stupid enough to think now is the time to take their eye off the ball for the next 5 years while they try and hammer out a deal with Chrysler.

anthonyp · February 2007

Well it is cold here in south Florida, but I went to the art festival yesterday...They had a few Cadillac cars on display....Just looking from a color quality perspective, I thought the larger suv was quite attractive with a nice layout---just a quick look---I think they could put leather on part of the dash and break up the large amount of plastic, which wasn`t too bad anyway..A shame I had such a miserable experience with them many years ago, and that they sort of abandoned the luxury car...If they were to get their act together with the unions---which seems to me the unions should rellly desire to do---then I would seriously give the suv I saw consideration for my daughters next ride.I would rather support American workers, and corporations than foreign ones, but I guess in these times the product has to be right, and I don`t think I can support Cadillac again--but who knows...Tony

ctsang · February 2007

"By last years end, Toyota would record an annual net profit of $11.6 billion, and its market capitalization (the value of all its shares) would reach nearly $240 billion  greater than that of G.M., Ford, Daimler-Chrysler, Honda and Nissan combined."

lexusguy · February 2007

Noticed these shots up over at C&D. Good looking car. The interior seems to be a slight refinement of the A6\Q7. I assume this basic design is going to be in all future Audis.

anthonyp · February 2007

Hi

I had occasion to play with a gps on a large yacht--I think called-- map quest---I am telling you all that there is a huge amount of things in the future for this instrument, and the ease of use puts everything I have experienced with all cars to shame...The only problem I see is the size of the screen, and how it can be integrated into the car---gracefully...Tony

blkhemi · February 2007

Ah, that's more like it LG.

The car is simply gorgeous. I guess the A5 is worth the wait of a 2-door A5.

I do have one question tho. I wonder if this car is on the new MLP, as that front overhang still appears to be a bit long, or as the picture shows? Not so bad as the current Audi's, but it's out there, not flush like the 335i Coupe's front.

But other than that slight detraction, it's simply stunning. And the rear is, dare I say it, Aston-like.

lexusguy · February 2007

I do have one question tho. I wonder if this car is on the new MLP, as that front overhang still appears to be a bit long, or as the picture shows? Not so bad as the current Audi's, but it's out there, not flush like the 335i Coupe's front.

Good question. From the side view the front overhang doesn't seem to be too bad, especially compared to a car like the Passat, where the front end hangs about a mile over the front wheels. Unfortunately all they had was pictures, no info. I do like the angular C-pillar, it recalls the classic Audi coupes.

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