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I'm sorry, but that has to be one of the most brainless statements I've seen on this forum. Just so you know, BMW, Porsche, M-B, Jaguar, Ferrari, Audi, Lotus, Maserati, Honda, Toyota, and Nissan have long and prestigious racing histories. They also take lessons learned from say the M3-GTR and apply it directly to street cars like the M3 CSL. Or the 911 GT2. An Audi R8 would mop up any Nascar class Taurus or Monte Carlo.
Merc, Maserati has continually refined its SMG. Drive an '01 Coupe Cambiocorsa and the US spec Quattroporte and you'll see what i mean. Its not perfect yet, but give them another few years to work on it, and it should be on the level of a conventional automatic. Also, the US spec suspension is supposed to be tweaked for our roads as well. The blown M-B 5.5L in the E had better be waxing the Ferrari 4.2L, or M-B would be doing something seriously wrong. However, the Ferrari powerplant has got SOUL. The Benz, with its plastic engine cover, is just an appliance, handbuilt or not.
Compared to Italian cars...gulp(!) yep! Being a fan of Italian cars I have no rebuttle. Defense rests...lol.
What I'm waiting for is Maserati to adapt VW's DSG to their next generation Sypder and Coupe, and possibly to the Quattroporte. I've driven the TT 3.2 V6 DSG and it really is this close to being the perfect gearbox. I'm reading that the 2005 911 may have this gearbox as on option. Have you driven the DSG?
M
Yeah, NASCAR's are purpose built race cars... don't have a single thing to do with production cars. Sounds like Toyota's getting in around '06.
"An Audi R8 would mop up any Nascar class Taurus or Monte Carlo."
Naw... the 'ol boys'll put 'em in the fence. :-)
I disagree with your reasoning on a couple of levels.
1. You are pretending that a wider model/price range hurts sales rather than helps sales. If we used your reasoning, then if Lexus were to introduce a 100k or even 200k super-LS, it would hurt overall LS unit sales. So I guess they'll never introduce higher-end models than the LS430, because it would hurt overall unit sales? Come on, merc1, you should know better than that! Put another way, if the wider price/model range is hindering S-Class sales, why doesn't MB just discontinue the higher-end models, and market just the S430? By your reasoning, S-Class sales would increase.
2. You are talking about the price-sensitive buyer, but seem to fail to recognize that such a buyer need not buy a S500, S55/65, or S600. If he wants an S he can buy the S430. S-Class sales are NOT limited by the existence of the higher-trim lines, as long as the S430 is still marketed.
What are the median incomes of the LS and S430 'buyers'. How many buy vs. lease. How many find that $1250 a month lease is a hardship, while $1000 isn't? What is their trade-off - $200 or $300 a month a very small amount.
What % of these cars are paid for by these drivers' businesses? For example, how many VP's are there in the Fortune 2500 on car plans - maybe 25,000 to 50,000? How many people in similar sized private businesses. Another 50,000?
I find it unlikely that the CEO of $100 million/yr up companies tells his Veeps that they can't spend more than $1200 on a car unless it comes right off the top of their $200K comp package. And they all go 'ouch'.
Many of the people driving these cars aren't buying them or paying for them. They don't bail to a Lexus because the can't afford an S55. They drive it because of the way it looks, drives and how reliable it is. These days it looks like a very, very good decision amongst their peers. Maybe they look at an S55 and wonder how silly that would look in the lot - worrying about a "Feeling your oats, Charlie?" comment as if they were 23 again and dumping their paychecks into NOx upgrades for your Civic.
So the real issue here is to put some facts and figures out there that talk about the 'buyers' financial profiles and where the money comes from that actually pays for them. Last time I checked with my MB/BMW friends, more than 75% here in New England were leasing.
Small money from $65K to $80K in a lease.
If having multiple models in one product range doesn't help sales then what is the point?
I mean if Mercedes sells only a S430 and sells, for example, 20K units annually, or sells a S430, S500, S600, S55, and still sells only 20K units annually, why would they spend the millions of additional dollars in development, manufacturing, engineering, marketing, legalizing(engines & names) if they end up selling no additional units of the product? Mercedes would essentially end up making less money per car(a lot less) by having multiple engines in the same body style car for no reason.
It's quite obvious Mercedes having a S430, S500, S55, S600 helps it reach a larger potential buying audience. Such as the S55 helps the S-class reach a buyer who wants a the room of a S-class but wants a much sportier car, without the S55, Mercedes would probably lose that sale to BMW, or now Maserati.
Maxhonda99 - The S55 and S600 are halo cars as far as I'm concerned. The S600 only sells about 1,000 units a year in the US. Only 15,000 AMG cars are sold annually worldwide and the S55 probably is a small percentage of those cars. But sometimes when you read these boards those AMG's are represented as if they are mainstream MB's rather than cars that represent 1.5% of their worldwide sales. Though the S55 and S600 represent miniscule sales numbers by themselves their halo effect helps sell mainstream S-class cars. But again that is a gap Lexus - even more so than BMW - intends to close in the next few years. Right now there is no halo effect for the LS430.
Lease/buy ratio - read a statistic like that somewhere recently but I'm not sure where. In fact it may have been more weighted to the buy side. However in the larger, higher wealth zip codes I would think that leasing is a 60%+ factor in the ratio. But that's just my gut.
In this Luxury Car Class the S Series...The 700 series and the LS..The discussion to revolve around the price of the car seems silly to me..
Which is the best car, which handles best, which has the best ride is the most quiet, handles better, is safer, is most dependable..etc.
To say one of these cars is better or worse then the others because of price or even total sales (although total sales does indicate people voting with their pocketbook) does not tell the story of which is the BEST.
"
No, the Audi DSG is better -- not that the SMG is bad, but the DSG is another forward step in this kind of technology.
If your lack of interest in the TT is styling related or size related, so be it. If you have a spare couple of hours some day, however, take a nice long test drive in a 3.2L DSG equipped TT -- they're pretty sweet.
Too small for my tastes (our TT's have all been my wife's) -- but worth a shot to enjoy the marriage of the engine and transmission. Makes me long for a higher performance version perhaps in an S4 or an A6! Heck why not in an STS even!?!
:-)
Actually the tenor seems to me to be responding to Merc's little lexus digs in his messages. Rather then the other way around.
Likewise the problems Germans are having now might silence the Nay sayers two models down. Same for those saying that Cadillac is not probably up to the Challenge. Perhaps in 2006 when the next generation CTS hits the market, a more compact car, the mighty 3 might not be so mighty after all.
But its highly unlikely that other cultures could beat Kenyans on the Track. Highly unlikely.
“Actually the tenor seems to me to be responding to Merc's little lexus digs in his messages. Rather then the other way around.”
Listen, some people throw more than digs at him. Merc is doing what Merc does—defending the brand he loves. Some people take this stuff a little too personally. We’re talking about hunks of metal here, not human beings. Merc doesn’t seem to get personal, even when he’s painted into a corner (or sometimes appears to be).
Oac:
“Toyota is not alone in styling disasters are they ??? Methinks BMW ain't doing any better either! .”
They’re both pathetic. If you’ve read my posts in the BMW threads over the past year, you will know that NO ONE has denounced the new BMW styles more vociferously than me. Furthermore, I have owned four Toyotas and am a staunch fan of their reliability just as I am a fan of BMW’s superior drive qualities. Styling is another story. All I ask is that designs are tolerable. They both fail miserably on my scorecard. At least there are one or two I can pick out of the Toyota/Lexus mess. BMW? Zippo with the Bangle-era designs.
Ljflx:
“Styling disasters and 10.2bln of profits don't go together. If they do what will Toyota earn with great styling - $20bln. They already make more money than the rest of industry combined. Sales volume and profits speak at an astronimically louder volume than people's opinions. Money talks. Opinions are sometimes just wishful thinking or rejection of reality - on everyone's part.”
Indeed, I firmly believe Toyota would jack up their sales even further if they had butt-kicking designs. Their profits may impress you, but I wouldn’t buy a car based on a company’s profits no more than I would choose a wife based on how much money she has. Kudos to Toyota and their profits, but said profits will not come from my check book until they can sculpt something that pleases me again. Could be the next LS, could be SportCross if they throw AWD into, or it could be a Toyota in the ilk of my 1988 Corolla All-Trac wagon (long gone). Doubt we’ll see the latter though. And if they do to the LS what they did to the ES and GS it’s not going to happen. Can’t believe some of you make ex cathedra acceptance of whatever is spit out by them. But hey, it’s your dough. Can’t argue with that.
:-)
I don't think manufacturer's profits should be used to decide what car to buy, but I do think that popularity, or unit sales, within a particular class, are indicative of something. If there were a model that I knew absolutely NOTHING about, other than the fact that it was selling well vs its direct competitors, then I would be motivated to at least look into it.
Does anyone know the specific 4 Lexus models to be launched in 2005 in Japan ? I'd assume the GS will be one, but which are the others since the new LS and IS are not due until 2006/2007, while there's been no mention of the redesigned LX or GX.
I disagree with you...Merc constantly throws in his little digs and eventually people like me (me specifically) get tired of it and respond (to those specific digs)....I don't believe any of the responses have been of the personal attack nature...If any of mine have please point them out and I will work harder at more proper responses.
Others have provided very factual responses to issues Merc has raised....I think their responses are especially helpfull to the discussion and keep the board lively.
Both their responses and mine have however almost universally been in response to merc...Not the other way around.
And for heaven's sake, doesn't ANYONE want to talk about ANYTHING but Lexus vs. Mercedes? I'm not really seeing the need for this discussion to continue under this pretense of a topic definition if no one has anything different to contribute.
Have at it!
Those of us that know the '89 Camaro they are refering to well will know that statement is a cleverly written slam. On BMW. From C&D. The mag's dont point the same "whats the point of this crap" finger at Lexus and Acura do they? Germany needs to do it right, or just stop.
That's because they make nice appliances. Hard to "slam" a middle of the road appliance.
I'd be more than happy to plunk down $78K for "the best damn Camaro". That car is a stunner as I've been in one and I'm sure drives every bit as good as it looks.
This talk about not being competitive without 500 HP cars is just plain silly...How many 4 or 500 HP cars are purchased?...FEW.
The car that will knock the industry dead in the Luxury Market is the new LS (Hopefully 06 release)from Lexus a Hybrid with big horse power getting 35 MPG....In a dependable Luxury car like only Lexus can build.
It was easy...I clicked on Reply and typed in what I know to be true.
Do you deny there will be a LS hybrid in 06?
You did not answer my question...Do you Deny that LS will build a Hybrid or are you stating you just don't know?
Also, I don't want to criticize C + D, but i read the full-size pickup comparision, and I wonder how the Nissan Titan, which had been out for barely 2 months at most, which is a magnificent truck, could beat out the legendary F150. Nissan didn't have one bit of experience with a full-sizer before the titan. also, in the luxury sedan, someone want to explain how the vw beat out the MB S500?
I believe the reviewers on Edmunds, for example, really liked it. I happen to really think it's a sleek looking vehicle as I like the Bangle designs, the old designs were stellar, but IMO this takes BMW forward one notch. I know not everybody agrees, but that's why they make vanilla and chocolate.
Has Lexus said they will build a hybrid LS? I haven't seen any specific information on a LS hybrid. So what's the point of hyping something you know basically nothing about?
Curious. What's the cut off point with age? Seems there are a lot of old goats around these threads in their twenties. I'm no spring chicken, but will never outgrow the sport ride and sports cars. The way that I see it there's only one vehicle that's custom-made for old age—the subterranean bobsled.
"I was older then, I'm much younger now."
- Bob Dylan