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Have you ever seen anyone claim a Lexus isn't sturdy?
Look at the safety statistics, the long term durability of the body and associated hardware. Wow! the Lexus family sure seems sturdy from everything I have read.
And the quietness part? Gimme a break. We all know who makes quieter cars.
"True, the RX does not have a 3rd rear seat, but it's a chick car and a clumsy handler. It's like a fancy livingroom on wheels."
Wow! It's amazing how many men I see driving a RX330! They must really be women putting on a costume while driving the RX.
"Chick car". Did you forget something? Last time I rememeber the 3-series is a pretty big chick car.
Conceding the handling point is a HUGE concession. Then, you're saying better braking, steering, control, acceleration..........I'd contend that this is what driving is all about. Vehicles are for driving and if the BMW was that unreliable than they wouldn't compete at all much less be the top selling luxury make in the world.
They may have less defects and maybe a boring car is what people want at the $70K price point, but the 7 series will trounce the LS, if BMW addresses the issues. People I talk to, don't fault the 7 series mechanically, they fault the i-drive.
Then what are you relating to?
-Body rigidity? Well, Lexus ranks right up there with Mercedes & BMW in safety ratings. Safety ratings are obviously a testement to body rigidity. Also, I have a uncle that owns both a ES300 with 130K miles and a 2000 LS400. The ES300 is still flex free and suspension soaks up bumps as well as day 1, not to mention steering & brakes operate flawlessly. Sure seems the body is still pretty tight to me after all these miles. The LS400, built like a tank, no flexing, even over the most potholed roads, can't hear any squeaks, rattles from anywhere. Is that sturdiness?
How about how the hardware holdsup? 130K miles & all windows are original, all still work. In fact, everything in the car is still original and everything still works as good as when new.
"Then, you're saying better braking, steering, control, acceleration.........."
Check the stats buddy. The GS brakes better than the 5-series. the LS430 brakes better than the 7-series. The IS300 brakes better than the 3-series. Acceleration? Isn't the GS430 on par with a 540i? Or the LS430 quicker than the 745i/IL?
"Vehicles are for driving". So than shouldn't everyone be driving a BMW? How is the RX330 squashing the X3&X5 combined? How is the ES330 outselling the 3-series sedan line-up? Or the LS430 outselling the 7-series by about a 2 to 1 margin? Huh...wait I can answer that. Not everyone has handling as their #1 priority!
And what would happen if Lexus addresses the few issues that they do have?
No according to recent comparisions, the 7 series is the better handler, better accelerator, better braker and gets better gas mileage.
but of course, comparos also vary greatly based on weather, track conditions. And of course you could test the same cars on different days and get different measurements.
Hmmmmmmmm....
Does it have superior Dependability?
Superior Ride
Superior comfort
Superior Price (in terms of a lower price not higher)
Superior sound system
Superior Nav system
Superior Emissions (in terms of Lower emissions)
Superior safty systems
Is it more quiet.
Does it have a superior dealer and service network
The above are all objective standards...More pleasing to the eye is a subjective standard....The 7 series does handle a little better if you like to drive very fast on twisty roads...
Talking of total hack job here. Livinbmw, you obviously need to re-check your facts on the 7 vs LS. Have you seen/heard/read of this comparo test back in Dec 2003 ?
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article- _id=7359
Guess who won ???
How about sales YTD ? Guess who is wayyyyyy ahead of the 7-series in sales ??? Well, guess again !!!
http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsedan.asp
Now back to my rocking chair....
Designman - I always get a kick out of the big Camry label. The guy defeats his integrity before he leaves the starting gate. Sorry - this is just someone trying to stir things up and it's not worth it.
Much more lucrative to go work on the german brands which are well below japan in quality especially lousy electrical systems. All kinds of problems with their new models and recalls already. What's the X5 up to now 20? Don't look at surveys just go ask your nearest technician about reliability problems and you'll get all the data you need from the horses mouth.
You have to read that post better. He means lucrative in a negative way. So I think he struck the guy out.
Now for fun - it should be interesting to see Clemens and Piazza tonight. I hope we get a conference on the mound.
"You have to read that post better. He means lucrative in a negative way. So I think he struck the guy out."
No, I meant Sapparo was batting!!
I think we’ll see the stoic Piazza as usual.
Livinbmw... I have a BMW also so I know exactly where you’re coming from. What these Lexus guys may not understand is that some BMW lovers will do anything for the ride, even if it means sacrificing reliability. Doesn’t bother me though when someone says my cars suck because my purchases are well-calculated and my wife and I know exactly what we want. Can’t tell you how much sass I put up with people in other forums who say Boxsters (another one of my cars) aren’t real Porsches etc. No matter. These forums are funny, fun and often informative. Enjoy your car, but as I said before, this Lexus crowd is tough to debate, but good guys.
Perhaps you've ignored the SUV craze that has all manufacturers running to take advantage of..Even Porsche of all nameplates has a SUV..Lexus would have to be stupid not to capitalize on the market. I still own a 1992 LS400 and have experienced few issues with the car..
As for calling the LS an overpriced Camry..The LS was designed specifically for the US market and released later in Japan..It took 6 yrs and $1 Billion to develop that car. (Did any other Lexus owner get that email?) That car singlehandedly changed the dynamics of the whole Luxury car industry.
As for Handling, I'd agree the BMW turns better, but I haven't driven a new 18" LS..But the braking stats and acceleration stats are comparable if not better. I know Lexus cars offer a quieter and more comfortable ride. If Lexus cars are so boring, then why would anyone buy them? You ought to consider this before you make such blanket judgements.
What exactly is a driving car? IMO an ideal driving car is one that caters to the consumer's need. A Lexus does that nearly perfectly..The majority of buyers aren't going to race them on the autobahn..For practical daily driving, it doesn't get better than Lexus.
(Designman, it doesn't help the pitcher when they're facing guys like Manny Ramirez.Lol)
SV
The Boxster is every bit a Porsche to me and a great looking car. If I was 20 years younger I'd buy it.
SV7887 - perfectly stated.
https://usalexus.programhq.com/lxprn/main.asp
I think the IS in that same e-mail looks real good.
I'm reading this debate and it is even more pointless than the Lexus vs. Mercedes debate. Why you ask? Because BMWs aren't about what Lexus are about and vice versa.
A BMW person mentions sturdiness, which I define as solidity and the way the car feels driving down a bumpy road and/or lack of body/chassis flex when you pull out of the driveway that has the extreme slant or dip.....the Lexi respond with "a 1996 LS400 was found to be more reliable than a new 7-Series". Do you all not see where these two statments or points aren't even close to being related. A car can be "sturdy" or sturdily built physically, doesn't mean it is reliable. BMW and Lexus two polar opposites. No need for debate.
Audis have a spectacular "build" but they are the least reliable of the German luxury brands.
I read above the 7-Series sales are "drying up" in its second year of product. Wrong and mostly hype. The actual numbers:
June 2004/YTD 2004/June 2003/YTD 2003 - 1628/8776/1577/9935
While they are down 1159 units YTD 2004 compared to 2003, they did sell more in June of 2004 than they did in June 2003, I'd hardly call this "drying up" and the 7-Series is in its third year of product, not its second.
Big difference between a "driving car" and a "driver's car", a Lexus can be whatever you want to call it like former, but the latter it isn't.
M
I don't give a hoot about the Nav, that has nothing to do with 0-60, braking, or road feel. I did say that with i-drive, perception seems to be reality, but I personally don't have a problem with it.
I'm not sure what the point of your post is. To me the 7-series is the better vehicle in it's class. I like the looks better, I like the ride better, I like the interior better. Maybe the Ultra has more supple leather, but so what? The 7 sure isn't perfect, but neither is the LS. A number of different factors go into picking a car, but they are different for each of us. But I for one, don't want an Avalon on steriods, but I recognize some do.
"the seven series is superior inside and out to lexus"
Lexus owner ask the following in their rebuttal regarding the 7-Series vs the LS430:
Does it have superior Dependability?
No the 7-Series doesn't, but I don't think anyone said it did. The comment about "inside and out" as most people would read it relates to design, not the always talked about reliability surveys.
Superior Ride
Nope. What about handling though? See how one group prioritizes the opposite quality in their luxury mount? BMW folk regard Lexi as riding like their not even touching the road with a corresponding lack of handling. Apples to Oranges.
Superior comfort
Highly debatable, and this depends on what the person looks at when judging comfort. Ride, quietness, seats etc. etc. all come into play here. For some the BMW will be a hard-riding noisy car, and the Lexus like riding in an Amana, Apples to Oranges here.
Superior Price (in terms of a lower price not higher)
Superior sound system
Superior Nav system
I'm yawning at these three sorry.
Superior Emissions (in terms of Lower emissions)
What? This is noticeable to a buyer in what way? Does anyone really care either way? Neither car is a smoger.
Superior safety systems
Nope, the Lexus has a Mercedes style Pre-Safe system so Lexus would appear to be more advanced here. Not sure if that makes the LS superior overall in safety though, haven't seen the crash stuff on either. There are a lot of other factors here.
Is it more quiet.
Nope the 7 isn't, but it isn't a noise box either like some Lexus fans would lead you to believe it is.
Does it have a superior dealer and service network
What the heck does this have to do with someone saying the 7-Series is superior inside and out. This is a classic Lexi response, only the charts, graphs and customer service stuff is truly important.
My point is that a BMW and Lexus debate at the 7-Series/LS level is pointless because the two cars practically bracket the segment in philosophy.
M
It's not just that. i-drive has also contributed to making the 7 series interior an ergonomic mess, mainly because the shifter is right next to the window wiper shaft.
Why is the shifter in such an awkward position? Because they had to make room for the i-drive.
Aside from i-drive, weird interior ergonomics and the nasty Bangle butt, I prefer the 7-series to the LS.
IMO the key to Lexus's success is that they do a few boring things really well (reliability, interior luxury and ergonomics) and don't screw anything up badly. The LS430 is the greatest boring car ever made, no doubt.
Meanwhile, BMW makes what should be a superior car but then cripples it with odd engineering and design decisions.
Mercedes and Mercedes and Lexus is that Mercedes isn't an outdated, poorly engineered car like
Rollers were back then. Rollers lacked basic luxury car equipment like stability control, side airbags
and HID lights...the list goes on. They didn't even get these things until 1998, when Mercedes had
them at least 8-10 years prior. Mercedes might have a reliability problem, but they haven't
compromised their other core strengths in the least, but you make a valid obeservation. The
perception has changed in the minds of people who own Lexuses, but overall in this country and
worldwide Mercedes is far from finished and they still have the prestige and clout to go with that
position. Secondly, unlike Rolls-Royces up until 1998 or so, Mercedes still builds at lease some segment
leading cars and no amount of reliability praise will overcome that when it comes to the SL, CL and
upper S-Class models. Rolls didn't have anything but their rep, Mercedes still has the tech, engineering, and performance to back up the rep, only their reliability and early build on certain models faultered. Big difference from Rolls whose whole lineup was completely outdated.
And nobody sighted would even think Lexus has even begun to overtake Mercedes in style, that is completely nuts. There isn't a truly stylish Lexus made, and just about everything Mercedes is dripping style, if nothing else in the typical Lexi's mind. Lexus has the dullest, most boringly styled group of cars in the industry!
M
You are kidding right? Same reason why people buy every other boring car you see on the road. Reliability, comfort, practicality, room, etc. etc. the list goes on and on........none of this means that the car isn't boring or that it is particularly exciting. SUVs are the most non-fun things you can drive and people love them. Please don't try to imply that great sales mean that Lexi aren't boring.
"BMW wasn't considered a top tier brand until the 7 Series arrived.
Huh? You'll have to explain that one. FYI, the "7-Series" has been around since 1977.
Please tell me when BMW as considered a 2nd tier brand, or not up to Lexus. The 5-Series alone put them, product/price/perception wise, higher than any of the Japanese brands until the LS430 went upmarket for 2001, only to meet the 7-Series which has been there for years.
M
What does that have to do with durability, which you say is soo superior in a BMW?
I think when sv7887 said "BMW wasn't considered a top tier brand until the 7 Series arrived." he meant when the redesigned 7-series came out in the late 80s. The 7-series before that was no competition to the S-class, which always had V8 offerings alongside 6-cylinders. The 7-series until the 90s only had a 6 and the 7-series of the early 80's was not playing in anywhere near the same ballpark as the Benz S-class.
As for livinbmw, I believe as someone else pointed out before, he is just simply here to light a fire! Maybe he's unemployed and has nothing better to do.
I have to disagree slightly with the notion that the differences aren't that much between these cars. On driving feel alone the BMW 7-Series is way different from the LS430. You're right, all the cars at this level do stop, go, ride and handle pretty well and some are better than others in certain areas here, but it is the way they go about doing these things combined with those slight differences in ride, handling etc. etc. that make a BMW a BMW and a Lexus a Lexus.
In my personal experience with both, there are things I did while driving a 745i Sport I wouldn't dare attempt with a 2001-2003 LS430, not that the average buyer drives like I drove those cars on that particular day.
M
http://www.topgear.com/content/features/stories/tarnishing_act/01- /
Vcheng - that link is incredibly revealing. I know how serious JD Powers is in the industry because I once looked at acquiring it for my old company. It's results are the Bible to the auto mfrs. In fact many auto companies have bonus systems tied to improvement in CR and JDP survey results. It is very similar to bonus systems used in the Music industry with chart performance. When I looked at JDP I had a consulting firm interview auto execs. I know how seriously the data is taken and why it'snever refuted. That's why I laugh at the posts on this board that try to undermine the surveys.
merc1 - couldn't agree with you more on the MB and Rolls analogy. MB is a reliability issue and that's all. They are still in the lead or very near the top in advancing the industry, whereas Rolls went into a rip van winkle sleepfest. In fact the latter - trying to maintain that #1 position in development - is part of the cause of their reliability problems. Another part may simply be systematic to all of europe. I have seen some consulting reports that simply state the current group of European workers (in all industries) are simply not up to snuff with the people they are replacing.
Sturdiness does evoke questions about the construction about the car..I suppose it depends on how you define it.
"Boring" is a relative term. There are some of us who actually find our Lexi engaging. Just as some of you dismiss your car's technical issues as "Quirks" we do the same for the "boring" issue.
In both cases the apparent issues aren't enough to stop our enjoyment of the car. I've stated many times that Lexus builds the most customer friendly car out there. I don't think anyone can refute that. Personally, the LS's superior durability, dealer support, and features are enough to keep me a Lexus customer.
I suppose I could drone on about this and never convince a BMW/MB owner to try one..The opposite is probably true. We are all very passionate about or cars. Merc, I suppose you're right when you say buying a car isn't a totally rational decision.
If we all wanted the same things in a Luxury car then the market would require only one nameplate. I take issue with those who try to claim their car is "better" than Lexus. Of course we Lexus owners will fire back with every single objective data we have. This data would indicate that the Lexus will offer you a better ownership experience. That's the only way to refute the claim, with hard evidence.
The way I see it, the German MB/BMW owners cite subjective data. I haven't driven a BMW, but have driven S Class cars..The difference isn't as dramatic as the magazine may have you believe. If you prefer a more "engaging" driving experience, then by all means go buy a Mercedes or BMW. (Where does Jaguar fit in all of this?)
But don't criticize our beloved Lexi, otherwise we'll drown you will years of JDP and CR data!
SV
I guess the reliability issues might be a bit overblown by toyota/lexus owners. By the way my 5 series managed to make it in to work today.
I'm sure your 5 series made it to work today.
None of us have attempted to categorize the BMW has a German Pinto. But the data says a Lexus will have fewer issues than anything else.
Again you've claimed the BMW to be sturdier and better performing..Where is the data to back this up? The past few posts have cited data showing the LS at par with the competition.
Yet you cry foul when we point out that a Lexus will more reliable, ride more comfortably and offer a better ownership experience. Is it our fault a 6 yr old LS400 is more reliable than a new 7 Series? Do we even care that the 7 Series handles marginally better? No. We will all be laughing all the way to the bank.
As for residuals, it's been stated on this board in the past that the LS has a higher residual than the 7 Series. (And it would appear so based on my Non-Scientific look in the paper) Anyone know?
SV
For instance, the RX330 is a sloppy handler with extreme overhangs, short wheelbase and intrusive stability control while the X3 is nimble, precise and a sports car-like handler for less money than the fancy camry wagon chick car.
12.03.2003 - MSN
Automotive Lease Guide's Residual Value Winners
by the Editors of MSN Autos
Honda and Toyota lead the way for vehicles with the best residual value at lease end.
For the fifth year in a row, Honda Motor Co. is a leader among automakers, winning the Industry Brand Residual Value Award from Automotive Lease Guide (ALG). BMW also garnered top honors in the luxury segment, winning the Luxury Brand Residual Value Award. These awards are based on 2004 model-year vehicles.
Meaningless? Go to any dealer in the country and ask them if the current residuals have any meaning.
Meaningless? It's not meaningless to a consumer who is looking at lease payments when comparing different models.
By the way........Mercedes is dropping Full Maintenance and BMW has added the option of Full Maintenance for up to 100,000 miles.
Is that meaningless, too?
To see that the LS430 for example has higher resale value than the 745i, simply take a look at dealer ads for used cars(a few years old) and then do the math. You'll find the LS430 holds more of it's value in the real world. And not just the LS430, but also the RX330, LX470, GX470. And the other models have resale at or near the top of their respective classes also.
Keep inciting...