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Are we talking about the same race? I quickly glanced over the article in the BMW magazine where they talked about an issue with the suspension.
Per the poster "The Alcan 5000 is billed as the longest most grueling winter race in the world."
http://europeancarweb.com/news/0408ec_aican/
read about the smashing results of the X3. very impressive ......
Maybe livnbwm got his wires crossed or just believed too much of the BMW marketing blarney he must have to put up with. This event was a tsd rally over 5000 miles of Canada. Race? NO! Grueling? Depends on how much beer and how late the teams stayed out.
If the martinis where $18 a pop at night, the aspirin were probably $3 each in the morning.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/06/business/worldbusiness/06merced- - es.html?oref=login
It has absolutely nothing to do with the type of rallying that Subaru and Mitsubishi have been cleaning up on for years..
That isn't a knock on the X3. I think it is a great value, and with the 3.0 prices being dropped by $3K for the '05 models, it is even better.
regards,
kyfdx
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Man the new RL is some car. According to John Davis it has a new kind of all wheel drive system that Acura calls “Super-Handling All-Wheel Drive”, or SH-AWD. It has active headlights that steer light around corners and the hi-tech 3.5-liter V-6 five-speed automatic (with manual mode) puts out an even 300-horsepower, 75 more than before.
They are great cars but UNTIL they throw a V8 in the thing they will never capture the high end lux market.
It is sad but true...Even with the Horse Power I would not buy it...A highend LUX needs a V8 in my mind no matter how dumb that may be.
Why don't they just throw a V-8 in the darn thing people have told them this for years.
The Acura line has an almost 20 year history of incredibly long life with owners getting cars to routinely go 200,000 miles, er uh the way Mercedes used to before they fell in the tank.
Now they add to that one of the most high tech AWD systems on the planet (excuse us Mercedes, you didn't invent this one) and very, very nice styling.
Why in the world would anyone drop 55K and up on a gimpy E320 or even more on an E500 when you could get something as stylish, great handling, high performance and long lived as the new RL.
No matter how stupid, or irrational it may be...It is not a true Luxury car (In the American mind) without a V-8 even if the 6 delivers as much HP.
Why spend $60,000 plus and NOT get what We conceder a TRUE Luxury car....
It is Acura that is even more crazy ...If they want to jump into the high end luxury market in America they need to throw an 8 into the darn thing.
It is too bad they are so silly, it can't be that complicated to develop or buy a V-8 and engineer it into their car.
I don't quite agree with your assessment that in order for the RL to be a true luxury sedan it MUST have a V-8 engine. To the contrary, the V-8 is a throw-back to when auto manufacturers’ answer to increase horsepower was through a bigger and brutish engine. They did this by putting two 4-cylinder engines together without regard to efficiency and weight balance.
By far, the V-6 is a better designed engine, taking into consideration performance, efficiency and weight distribution. This new RL will generate 300 bhp and I believe do 0-60 in 6.5 seconds. Maybe it is time to look at the V-6 as a different kind of high performance engine, and in turn the RL, as a contemporary luxury sedan. Out with the old staid standard of luxury.
I fail to see why you are so hung up on V8s and luxury cars, especially when you admit your argument is irrational. If someone can produce more power out of a smaller engine, this is good engineering.
Furthermore, Honda is considered one of the best engine manufacturers in the world. And the RL promises to offer, once again, more bang for the buck in the luxury segment. If you ask me, I think many people enjoy squandering money on badges and image in the luxury segment. Well, the RL is a luxury car for mortals. A better way of looking at it may be to say it is a luxury car for people who would rather put an extra 25 grand toward something else. And if you want to push it, you could call it a luxury car for the savvier buyer who doesn’t need a 3-pointed star or... drum roll please... big L on his trunk.
Funny, I can't help but think now of that big L that Laverne (Penny Marshall) used to wear.
;-)
I think that the mainstream MB crowd woudl throw up to hear that the E320 isn't a 'true luxury' car. And the 530i? The one the Consumer Reports called the best car they'd ever tested? I guess it wasn't 'true luxury'.
V8's aren't the sign of luxury any more, they are more likely the tools of the "leave rubber" crowd - 300 Hemi's and that bunch.
Sophistication, the hallmark of luxury in automobiles, has moved on far beyond such simplistic demarcations as number of cylinders.
I'll never forget when I was shopping MB in 2001. I wanted to drive the E and the S. The salesmen looked at me and said you have to drive the E first. I asked why mainly because the E was out and the S was available to test drive. He said simply - "if you drive the S first you'll never be interested in the E". So I did as he requested. He was dead right and the E in question at that time was the E430 and not the E320.
What you are saying makes a lot of sense...But...
Human nature what it is in the US...Acura will never take that step up without an 8.
I own a Luxury car and no matter how wonderful the Acura is It will never compete with the LS or S or 700 series...Without an 8....
I'll never buy one and I promise you 95% of the super Lux owners wouldn't either.
It is way past time that Acura realize that the Customer is ALWAYS right.
http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0410/11/a01-299659.htm
kirstie_h
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It seems that most growth in the luxury business, has been in SUV's and 'crossover' vehicles.
For example 2004 sales at BMW the 3, 5, 7, Z4, X5 are all substantially behind 2003. The new 6 has sold a few thousand cars. The new entry priced X3 is 23,000+ units YTD and the only reason why BMW is showing year over year growth.
Lexus on the other hand shows strong growth in the ES and LS car lines, as well as the GX and hot RX.
At Cadillac, the traditional Deville, Seville car lines fell sharply, while the newer CTS and Escalade/SRX's grew.
At Mercedes sales have fallen in the C and S class cars AND G and M SUV's. The E is up 6% along with some of the niche specialty cars.
Then again, performance is not the only luxury factor. If it was BMW would be king. If torque were the only factor, no one would come close to Mercedes. The fact is, luxury demands a balance of characteristics. I'm not saying the RL is threatening to own the holy grail of luxury, but when you look at the borders of these categories the lines are blurred and categorization is only a vague reference point.
According to the V8 argument, cars such as the 545, E500, M45, CTS-V, STS, GS430, M5, E55 belong in this thread but I don't see their names on the masthead. Are these cars high-end luxury marques? In my book they are but something tells me people on the V8 end of the luxury debate will give them the boot for other reasons. In a nutshell they're not the portly, executive, Cuban-cigar cruisers. High-end luxury needs a little fat.
We all know the RL is not going to go head-to-head against the big barges. Size alone precludes this. Cars like the 5 and GS are its competition. But I'll tell you one thing, there will be people who consider the big babies and walk away buying an RL saying it just doesn't make sense to spend a lot more to get a little more. Draw the lines as you would like, but remember, apples and oranges are both fruit and some people would rather pay 50 cents for an apple than a buck for an orange.
Ljflx, can these high-end luxury cars core a apple?
;-)
For the record I found the S430 to be underpowered when I drove it. The S500 was an entirely different story.
Shoppers did choose the LS400 and it's guiet smooth V8..It had styling, obvious quality, size, the gadgets and safty features that are required in a high end luxury car....It also had a fantastic price. Over the years as the car burned it's way into the market people also came to realize it's supernatural reliability.
If Acura wants to burn it's way into the high end Lux market...It first has to offer ALL the features a buyer would expect in a Lux car.
Designman - those that go "over the limit" may end up sharing a Plasma TV with their upstairs neighbor. Come to think of it - 3D TV in the form of hi-def has arrived. Ralph Kramden's wait is over.
Doesn't the s65 have lot of room up front in the seats it does have?
I was just looking at the SLR...Am I the only person here who thinks it is really ugly? both front and rear.
I am pretty much a Lexus guy when it is sedans but I don't think I am biased when it comes to sports cars.
;-)
:-)
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Its all in peoples minds. Why would someone pay more for a Base ES 330 than they would for a fully loaded Camry and its the same car anyways.... or more for a Lexus LX 470 than a Loaded Land Cruiser?
Its all in the mind, the letter L with a circle around it vs, the T with a circle around it....
GX470 is the 4-Runner..
I agree with the point of the post, though.
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See, this is the 3rd world's super SUV.
Is the .50-cal. mount a factory option or after-market?
Ljflx: I have to agree with you on your criteria for "luxury" in a car or truck. Clearly, your analogy of a 3000-sf versus a 5/6,000-sf home drives home the point. Something doesn't add up wrt MBs. And here it is: Why is it that MBs have so many low end sherpa-like models (200, 220, 230, 240, 280, 300, 320, .... you get the point) littering all over Europe and they can be considered a pure luxury player in the N/A market ?? Hasn't any MB owner ever being to Europe to see their counterparts over the Atlantic ??? I was just in Munich and Frankfurt this past week, and the point continues to baffle me. I'll never consider MB a luxury car maker ever. They are simply a mass-market car producer, period. Lexus, Acura, Jaguar, and to a lesser extent, BMW, OTOH, are clearly luxury car/truck makers.
BTW, why not add another variable to the definition of a "Luxury car" ? How about COST ? I cann't imagine a V6-powered car selling for $100K ? Whereas, a car at this price point can definitely be considered a luxury vehicle.... whatever that means...
I'll continue my hibernation and pop in here-and-there when time, work and increased family responsibilities permits.
Where the heck is Merc1 ????????????
> ever. They are simply a mass-market car
> producer, period. Lexus, Acura, Jaguar, and to
> a lesser extent, BMW, OTOH, are clearly luxury
> car/truck makers.
That doesn't make any sense, you are using a blatant double standard there. You obviously have not checked the other manufacturer's offerings in Europe. Offering smaller displacement engines is key in models such as MB's C, BMW's 3, Lexus I and Jaguar X series. They all have <2000cc fuel engines and diesel engines in the line-up. Correction: Lexus doesn't have a diesel engine (but they do supposedly sell the IS200 according to www.lexus.de, even though I've never seen one in Europe), and they admit that's their huge Achilles heel in Europe. They're partnering with some French manufacturer for diesel engine design, I think.
In any case, didn't you see BMW's new 1 series driving around? Which competes against VW's Golff? And they're more legitimate than Mercedes? Makes no sense.
As to Accura and Lexus, they're irrelevant in Europe. Their success is US based, so based in global perception I truly don't think they even remotely have the brand cachee that MB, BMW or Jaguar have. They do build phenomenal cars, though, and it is just a matter of time until they get their apporach to the European market as "rigt" as they did in the US. But they'll need small engines and diesel to be successful there, and also a premium small car that builds brand desirability with young buyers by being cooler than other cars in the small segment, and is priced a good $4k over the average small car. Makes them quite profitable ventures.
MB is a luxury car makes, no doubt about that. Claiming otherwise is nonsensical. They do not build luxury cars exclusively, though. Nor do most other brands, exotics excluded.
As to the 6 vs 8 pot discussion, I absolutely disagree with the perception that a true luxury car needs to have a 8 pot engine. First of all, inline 6s are engines with a better balance than a V8 from an engineering point of view, and can be made to run smoother. Jaguar's inline 6, for one, was smoother than the criticially acclaimed V8 that replaced it due to the needs of the US market. A V8 sounds more hoarse and less turbine-like than a I6 when revved hard. Second of all, unbeknownst to most US buyers the MB S class, the BMW 7 series and the Jag XJ are sold with 6 pots and diesel engines in Europe. Identical spec otherwise. Doesn't make them entry level cars at all.
First, the price. At $50K MRSP it is knocking on the door of high priced luxury cars, (ie. LS430, E500, Q45).
Second, interior look and feel. The driver and passenger seats, fit like a Hong Kong tailored suit. The leather is soft and supple, and the dash is well laid out. Everything is in the right place just like when my grandmother would set the table for a big dinner.
Third, the handling is superb. On twisty roads the SH-AWD suspension system surpasses the hype. Go ahead push it around a sharp corner (even with your eyes closed) and the car remains composed. Ah....this is heaven. One down side though, the engine feels a little underpowered. But for the driving demographics for this car it has more power than most can handle. Reported 0-60 times is 6.5 seconds, but it felt more like 8 seconds.
Outside impressions, very Accord derivative and overall length is three inches shorter than the 04 RL. But inside, the space and comfort has a big car feel, certainly not as tight as the XJR or A6.
Value for the money? You decide. But at $50K I think it is overpriced, then again the car is in such great demand that many will pay that price without blinking an eye.
The LS430 costs 5,000 more and you get a lot more car with a V-8...The only production car that satisifies California Emissions standards without modification.
Give an LS a test drive and then let us know what you think