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You don't have to work at a particular dealreship, or for a particular company, or even talk to the GM to realize some crystal clear business strategies. I mean, last time I showed a Toyota sales how to open the trunk from the inside of a Celica .... I guess I didn't talk to the GM neither and still knew more than the sales. Anyways - why isn't Maxima in the same class as an Avalon - I can give you the 3 big reasons:
1/ Different classes. Mid- vs Full size. Maxima is a big mid-sized sedan, but still a mid-sized only. Avalon is a full size. In case you forgot, Toyota has a mid-sized called Camry that is in the same class as the Maxima.
2/ Completely different market focus - in case you've missed all the Maxima commercials, it features a car sliding across the watery surface, and emphasizes on the car's sportiness, bragging rights, 222hp, 5sp MT .... it is going for the sporty sedan market. Its targeted customers belong to the working family men with preference on sportiness.
Avalon, OTOH, is marketed as a refined, luxury, safe, comfortable BOAT! Its predominant customers are retired folks looking for a safe, reliable car that they'll never take beyond 100.
Hint- you see car mags comparing Maxima to Accord and Camry and Passat only, never the Avalon ...
3/ Do I still need a #3? oh well, what the hell. Price. Maxima's MSRP range from Cdm$30k - $35k. Avalon's MSRP starts from Cdn$37k and goes well into $40k. They are in completely different price brackets.
I hope that is clear as to why Maxima and Avalon belong to different classes ..... if you feel that I made you look like you have no idea what you're talking about, my apologies .... but I think you're the one who actually did that, but comparing 3-series with the Avalon .... I only responded to what you said.
btw, Nissan didn't change the class of the Pathfinder in 2001 model.... I wouldn't even call it a complete model-revision. The 2001 is still very much based on the old Pathfinder platform. To get the Maxima from a mid-sized to a full size platform, you are talking about a new platform from scratch.....
#17
If you've even read my post, I said Maxima's range from *CDN*$30-35k. There's more than 1 currency in this world.
"and not a model revision for the pathfinder, are you crazy, new lines, new options, new engine, may i say more"
Before you start verbally attacking others, maybe you should at least take the time to read their posts.
And new options and new engines defines a '*complete* model revision' (Again, read my post)?! A few more options, even engine options, would define a 'minor model revision', as a '*COMPLETE* model revision' includes revised body shape, revised interior, and most of the times strengthened chassis, suspension improvement ....
Geez I can't believe I am explaining what a 'COMPLETE model revision' is to a car salesman .... but then maybe I shouldn't be surprised = )
All the points I've listed are FACTS, not BELIEFS. If anyone is basing the discussion on unfounded information, that is the one who started the rumor of "Maxima moving to the bigger Avalon AND smaller 3-series class", and "Altima is going up-class". The fact you've repeated failed to respond to any of my major points raised is a pretty good indication who is basing the discussion on facts, who is just full of crap.
I am not trying to get into a heated discussion, but either start to base your discussion on some substantial facts, or be ready to relax and not be so thin-skinned about it when others point out the flaws in your information presented.
#17
Taurus and aggressive driving. I could never do that. Good luck. FYI, the new Taurus is softer riding than it used to be!
Adg44:
So, 2002 Altima will compete with 2000/2001 Accord and Camry. Is this what you want to say? Remember, 2002 is a redesign year for Camry (five year cycle), and Accord will get some minor tweaks and facelift for 2001 (fourth year of current design) and redesign in 2003 (five year cycle).
"the Maxima's multi-link rear beam suspension is an excellent design" Compared to what?
Now you come to a point of comparing GTI and Accord/Camry. Do you really want to start that debate? Or should it belong to a different topic altogether?
BTW, since you started on Nissan rumors, Altima goes mid-size (comparable to Accord, Camry, Passat), Maxima goes full size (comparable to Toyota Avalon, Buick LeSabre, Chrysler LH cars), what happens to I30? Also full size? Basically, I30 and Maxima are identical cars with minimal cosmetic changes, and I doubt that would change in 2002.
1salesman1:
I wouldn't say that they could not completely redo Maxima (and obviously, I30) in couple of years. Rapid redesigns seem to be the reason for Nissan's $37B in debt in just a few years. If Nissan really followed the same, I'd call the current design to be another short-sighted decision from them.
I also remember and have quoted this incident before. Back in October '97, I was looking for a family sedan, and with the homework done, I was at a Nissan dealership to test drive Maxima ($5K cash back rebate was available). A sales person was sent to me. He asked me which other cars did I test drive. I mentioned Camry, Passat, Accord (all four bangers), and that I was here to check out the Maxima. He pulled out a sheet of paper and started reading,
- '98 Altima has more power than Accord and Camry.
- '98 Altima has better acceleration than Accord and Camry.
- '98 Altima has more room than Accord.
That was enough. I interrupted him, and asked for the printed comparisons. The small letters mentioned '98 Altima versus '97 Accord and Camry. Great idea, isn't it? I got up, and was glad to have a better sales person at another Nissan dealership.
So it is not always what one is told.
haven't driven the 2000 Taurus yet. Don't really know what to expect, just looking at specs, on paper it looks pretty impressive. Hope it lives up to my expectation when I get to D.C.
folks on the Maxima subject:
Well, again you are get into the territory of personal perspective. Nissan Altima is bigger than a typical compact like Civic/Corolla, but smaller than a typical midsize Camry/Accord. So is the glass half full or half empty?
Nissan Maxima, it's bigger than Camry/Accord, but smaller than the Avalon. In fact, it's almost exactly half way between these two catagory interm of size. Once again, is the cup half full or half empty?
I think the EPA's offical stance is that Maxima is a midsize, they have to make the cut off somewhere. Probably because the Maxima carrys 5 people like the Camry/Accord, rather than 6 people in the Avalon.
So what to think? Don't you just hate it when someone ask you a question that has no one right answer like that?
After a year of ownership the Accord has a couple of serious door dings. I know they are a part of life, but it stinks to have such a large investment looking bad so quickly.
The 4 yr old Camry has dings, but they are not as severe as the Accord's. When I tap on the metal on both cars, the Accord's is obviously thinner. I have also noticed other Accords on the road with some horrendous dents/dings. The Camrys don't seem to be as bad.
I like both cars but I just wish Honda would use thicker sheet metal. Just something else to consider on top of their different personalities.
I could never make out what causes dings. I could never make out why Accord and BMW 5/7 series seem to have more dings than their lesser cars (Civic and 3-series).
I've had four so far, fixed for $20 each, and over three years, the dings have occured inconsistently, first in about six months, two within two days, and the last was about a year ago. None since then. Not one in my Prelude, about 8 months.
Anyway, a couple of other observations to stay on topic. The interior materials on the Accord also seems to be cheaper than the Camry's. Both of my cars are 4cyl, but I enjoy the Accord with its extra power, better handling and 5 spd. It is actually half way fun to haul the kids in. My wife prefers the softer Camry. My kids probably do too. When they first rode in the Accord, my 3yr old said "This car is bumpy!"
The Accord has 25k miles and the Camry has 80k. I also had a 93 Altima w/75k. I have not had one problem with any of them and would not hesitate in buying another Honda/Toyota/Nissan.
Nuff said.
on a side note. Seems like both Toyota and Honda are having another great year in the U.S.
Toyota sales up year to date >12%, unit sales up by more than 100,500 vehcles.
Honda sales is up year to date >10%, unit sales up by more than 63,600 vehicles.
People just love these 2 brands.
Nissan sale is up year to date >17.2, unit sales up by more than 65,500 vehicles.
This should be pleasing to the Maxima fans here.
Liking the interior or not is entirely subjective. If you ask me, the interior 'feel' and 'ergonomics' is better in Accord than Camry. The controls are laid out in symmetry (well thought) and placed such that I can close my eyes and be able to tell you what each button does. Can't do it in a Camry, or for that matter, even in another Honda/Acura.
About a 3 year old finding the ride bumpy, I'd agree with him/her. Accord isn't a soft riding car, and that makes me want to drive it more than most other cars.
BTW, I noticed an off-white Lexus RX300 this morning. The license plate told me that the vehicle hasn't been on road for more than three months. It had three noticeable dents on the driver side rear door at a height that could only be caused by another SUV. I feel bad for these owners (and myself) when they become victims of carelessness by others in parking lots.
New fascia (body colored front grill and sharper nose), side sill, new tail lamps. Coupe get more aggressive front and rear bumpers as well. 20 refinements to improve ride quality (including road noise suppression!).
LX: 6-speaker AM/FM/CD audio system standard. New wheel covers. ABS equipped models will have 'LX' alloy wheels as standard item.
EX: 6-speaker AM/FM/Cassette audio system with 6-disc in-dash CD changer, floor mats, new alloy wheels and steering wheel mounted audio controls will be standard equipment in addition to whatever existed.
V6: In addition to above (LX and EX respectively), traction control will be standard. EXV6 gets 4-way power seat for passenger to, in addition to the existing list of features.
No word on price increase.
In the US, as a "family car", honda accord is praised for its:
(1)low gas cost
(2)less body roll at corners and handeling.
But in the UK, honda accord is accused of:
(1)being a gas-drinking camel
(2)too much body roll and very bad handeling.
kind of make me wonder how much people in different places differ in opinion concering the same product. Weird feeling.
1.8 liter SOHC VTEC 140 HP (Japan/Europe)
2.0 liter DOHC 150 HP (Japan/Europe, Accord ES)
2.0 liter DOHC VTEC 180 HP (Japan, Accord Si-R)
2.2 liter DOHC VTEC 210 HP (Europe, Accord Type-R)
2.2 liter DOHC VTEC 220 HP (Japan, Accord Euro-R)
2.3 liter SOHC 135 HP (America, Accord DX)
2.3 liter SOHC VTEC 150 HP (America, Accord LX/EX; Japan, Accord wagon;
Japan, Avancier)
2.3 liter DOHC VTEC 200 HP (Japan, Accord wagon Si-R)
3.0 liter SOHC VTEC 200 HP (America/Europe, Accord V6)
3.0 liter SOHC VTEC 215 HP (Japan, Avancier)
Going down by this list several things come up. First, look at what is offered in America versus that in Japan and Europe. This alone showcases the gap between the American and the other two). Secondly, most of Accord's competition in Europe offer smaller four bangers as well as turbo-diesels. Example Passat is available with a 1.6 liter, 100 HP gasoline engine, as well as TDI engines. Part of this explains why some reviews will forget to compensate for those differences.
It also depends on which magazines those reviews come from. A few British magazines, and German magazines that I have read speak highly of Accord. According to AutoCar, "Accord Type-R is the best family saloon available in UK"! Now explain that in context with America, where a car has air-conditioning as 'free option', and is not offered with automatic tranny, only low profile 17" wheels and a suspension set up that not even Prelude gets. I wouldn't call 32 mpg a bad mileage for Accord Type-R either, unless the statement smokingbear read were lopsided in favor of others.
BTW, Accord LS and ES in Europe are the base models and do handle better than the American Accord (being smaller in dimensions and lighter as well), but not like their 'sports sedan' version, Type-R. To top it off, the rental Accord ES I had for a while in UK was equipped with EBD (Electronic Brake Distribution), a 6-speaker Bose audio system what a difference.
2) Altima IS going upmarket. Altima and Maxima will share the same platform. Maxima will become more performance oriented. This is according to automotive press. But as you say, seeing is believing.
silvercoupe: check the JD Power survey for "most appealing" category. You'll see that VWs now top Hondas and Toyotas.
wenyue: 1) you will NOT like the Taurus, even if you like the comfy ride. Camry is a controlled comfort. Taurus is not. And the build quality is pathetic, IMO. 2) I think Honda's sales are up mostly helped by the new Odyssey.
Build quality is one thing I will definitly document. Many are saying that American car's quality has improved, I will see just how "improved" they have become.
Yes, I agree that Honda's sales is mostly bolstered by Odyssey sales. Accord sale is actually down by 9,000 so far this year, but Civic is up by roughly the same number, so it cancles out. But the Odyssey sale is up by over 44,300 vans. And that accounts for 70% of Honda's 10.3% sales increase.
Consumer Reports recently (July 2000) rated the
VW Passat higher than the Accord, Camry and Maxima. Reliability ratings for the Passat were average and for the Accord outstanding. Draw your own conclusions.
Regarding the Altima/Maxima, I think that will be a good move if Nissan move the Altima to be a direct competitor to Camry/Accord and moved Maxima to the Avalon class, as long they don't taken out from the Maxima its strength (handling,engine,etc) by enlarging it. Nissan seems out of sync with the rest of the industry when it comes to the target market of their 2 mid-size car (Altima & Maxima).
Speaking of Taurus, its even bigger than the Avalon, yet priced cheaper than the Camry and comes with standard V6. Ford could've a real winner in it if they market it right and stop selling it to fleet to protect its resale value.
As far as Nissan sales being up 17%, they still have a long way to go from their sales numbers of the 80's. Nissan has the backing of Renault now and dollars to prop up their R&D.
Korean automakers have also come a long, long way in quality. I had posted in a Hyundia room and article showing impressive numbers on, quality, customer satisfaction, reliability from an independent agency. Korean sales numbers are also up into the double digit percentage range. Both the Japanese and U.S. automakers better watch their backs, the Koreans are not messing around.. God, I love competition!! We live in the best country in the world for choosing an auto.
Maxima, ummm, maybe, but the styling will be tired in one year, if not already.
Wow, the new Civic is really sharp looking.
VW Passant was ok kind of small. Comparing Accords/Camry’s to Ferrari’s? (I realize you really were not.)
Just to stir the forum up with another choice.
I stuck with the Accord/Camry 4 cylinders for cost and gas mileage. Basically, a commuter car driven 5,000-7,000 miles a year.
Want controversy. There is absolutely no way I would spend $26,000 on a midsize car Accord/Camry/VW Passant/Maxima. I would purchase a second HO or Toyota Sienna.
For what you get none of the midsize sedans come close to competing.
Simply put from a strict value perspective I believe that these two vans provide the best value in the automotive industry today.
Ready to Race!!!!!! lol
Another difference is the way the options are managed. Honda is DX, LX, or EX. Simple. Toyota, CE, LE XLE and then you can get so and so package with LE and CE and make it almost as full as XLE. To me, this makes the pricing advantageous to the dealer. I'm not saying it's impossible, but a buyer needs to additionally know the invoice price and msrp of all the options. Again, this falls into preference thing. Me personally, I like the pre-designated options for Hondas. But some may want to customize and only pick out the options they want. Now the Toytoa dealer may not have the color and the specific options requested at the dealer and have to special order it.
V-6 manual can make a difference too, but in U.S., I think the percentage of people wanting a manual V-6 family sedans are low.
Bottom line, they are #1, and close #2. In which order, it's a preference. To me, Accord by hair. And basically same for Civic (by hair) over Corolla.
I'm 6'3 weight 230lbs. Looks like more leg room in the camry. Don't know of that's a factor.
There is OFCOURSE rrom to negotiate, U can get it close to invoice, (below if u don't take Honda Finanace).....
There are many good deals going on at this time.
Don't go directly to the dealership...go thru internet...Every delaer now a days has an Internet-Manager....
~Milind
There are 5 major Honda dealers at my neck of the woods. The two closest ones has a bad reputation. I experienced one of them myself (agreed on price but keep adding things on at the finance table, such as tax on top of tax, floor mats twice etc. I got them to take them off but I lost faith on this sleazy treatment. After all $20 grand is a lot of money).
Don't give up on an Accord if you really like it. I ended up driving additional 20 miles to another Honda dealer and they are wonderful. Price I have to admit was couple hundred more but the courteous service made it right for me. I guess it turned out to be great because whenever I go there for an oil change (first visit was free), they give free car wash. Couple times they filled my gas tank too.
See if you can find a good dealer. Lot of good deals on the '00 Accords to make room for the '01s. I hope that sleaze bucket you had to dealt with gets what he deserves. Good luck.
Accord has slightly 'tight' ride i.e road feel & tight streering than Camry. There is more wind noise than Camry which has better aerodynamic design than Accord. Other side to this is
"Outward Visibility from Accord" It has simply the BEST visibility in the class...rather in any class....Blind spot virtualy non-extistant.
2.3VTEC engine is much better than Camry's 2.2 NON: VVT-i.
Accord has more road-noise than camry but other side is, accord tyres last for 50-60K. Camry tyres better for 30K.
Get what you prefer: Silent, NoFeedbackwhatsoever ride of Camry or slightly better ride of Camry.
IMHO: Toyota is doing a LOT of fleet sales which is driving resale downwards. Camry costs MORE than comparably equipped Accord but it's less worth after 3 years....
Intellichoice has come up with some interesting figures from actual market. which cays Accord's residual is 63%(rediculous) after 5 years. Whereas Camry is 54%. Also Accord costs much less to maintain for 5 years which costs less to start with.
Consumer are paying premium for Camry as Toyota is doing non-profit fleet sales. Toyota is a very BIG company than Honda with more resources. They can produce more Camrys than what actual demand is
Honda on the other hand produce what actaul market demand is. 340K Accords is USA & rest are imported. (My Accord is built in Japan)
It's impossible to go wrong with these two cars.
Bulletproof relaibility, Build quality & resale.
Get what YOU need.
IMHO : Current Accord 4-cyl is much better than Camry, which will undergo major redesign for MY2002.
That's All your honour. Defense rests now !!
Also Accord is very good on highways even with 4-cyl engine. It has very good 60-80MPH time.
Rides like on rail-tracks on the highway.
Camry looses breath around 70MPH.....
Drive both om HighWays & the diff will be evident
fit in Accord. As far as I can see from the stats
Camry's leg room is at least 1.5" more than Accord.
Any other tall Accord drivers out there with
comments?