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As for the M/L sound system; its nice but I am not an audiophile. I suspect the regular system would sound just as good to me.
You can feel the cold air from the climate controlled seats (and certainly hear the fans). I don't know that the comfort level difference is dramatic. I also can't comment on the seat heaters.
As I have tight quarters in the garage, I use the parking assist everyday. It works as advertized and mostly what it does is give you the confidence to park six inches from the wall. I do wish it were a bit more sensitive, though.
The laser cruise control is the neatest gadget on the car, but you have to use it in the right situation. It works very well on rural freeways with moderate to little traffic. Turn it off in cities and in heavy traffic. Be aware that there can be two problems on tight curves: it will break lock with the car in front of you (and then run up on it); and occasionally it will lock-on to cars in the adjacent lane (very unpleasant if he's going 20mph slower than you).
I can't believe we brought jurors into this mix. Jurors are always fair. Just ask OJ.
Does anyone know why?
And my apologies, I was speaking of my 01 RX300 Nav that BLANKS all of the ancillary information and the driver must take some otherwise useless action if s/he wants to see those displays.
Absent some way to assure that its not the driver manipulating the Nav, I'll take sides with Lexus on this one.
As for Lexus assuring it's not the driver, I guess we can just agree to disagree. There's no way I can imagine that being accomplished with current technology. And, at some point, we all finally have to take responsibility for our own actions, right or wrong (barring design flaw). How far down the road of engineering for the stupid do we have to go and deprive the intelligent and careful of enhanced benefits and features. I guess we'll have to equip all cars with ignition-restricting breathalyzers, etc. to protect against the idiots who are going to do what they want regardless our efforts to stop them.
And I agree with ljflx (how you doing buddy?) on the McDonald's analogy and the surgeon general analogy.
By the way, the Garmin Street Pilot III Deluxe unit I just bought for use in my new Avalanche and the wife's car, also shows a disclaimer page that you must agree to, then allows all inputs if you turn off "safe" mode. I think we use it safely, but I'm sure many don't. I pray none of us run into those goofballs in either a Lexus or other car who are driving and inputting nav addresses while dialing their phone. But do we really want to physically limit the rest of us, due to them? Maybe we should, but right now I'm on the other side and choose not to ski down clearly marked black diamond slopes.
I can't believe we are coming up on the 9/11 anniversary already. All these TV news tories are making me/us re-live it. BTW - I long ago thought bin Laden is dead - what do you think? Several stories I heard on am drive were squelched and on CNN there is a story today about one of his high level operatives talking of him in past tense.
Maybe you missed an earlier post but going back and forth to Myrtle i never saw a Md. trooper on I-95. Needless to say i was amazed.
As for the troopers, they have been less active lately it seems. Haven't seen a good "jump out in the fast lane" move in a while. Take care.
Coming up by default makes Lexus liable IMMHO!
wwest's complaint is based on his RX, but this is an LS forum so why the constant moan about the NAV being "useless" on the LS. The RX and LS are as similar as grapes are to apples (NOT) !
And the "I agree" button that I touch everytime I use the Nav can only be there for a single reason - legal issue. That is the only logical reason ! I have no problem "agreeing" since it is MY choice to use the Nav, and I should accept responsibility for any eventuality afterwards. If only many people accept responsibility for their actions we would not have Lexus put a disclaimer before using a gadget in any vehicle.
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Lastly, on the Nav and other screens - I believe you can turn the automatic return to the map on and off. I'm off on a trip and will play with the system. If I find the right menu sequence I'll post it when I get back Thurs.
In that case IMMHO the distraction legalities would be covered.
The way it operates now:
"I'm about to start playing an "animated cartoon" but you must assure me that you will not be distracted by it before I begin playing".
Surgeon General's cigarette pak warning..
I have yet to have a cigarette take itself out of the pack, light itself, and then insert itself into my mouth, let alone force me to inhale.
It's likely my long experience that makes the flaws in these system so obvious to me. Needless flaws I might add.
As an example: What is the need for the map display except for initial setup?
I don't use it very often but when I do I find the voice prompting is perfectly adequate. The moving map display ONLY serves as an additional driver distraction.
I would much rather have the system informational displays up continually by default and only have the moving map up if I need it.
The dynamic laser control seems somewhat scary to me. Does it ever brake hard if someone cuts you off? Do you not feel uneasy/tense "waiting" for your car to slow down behind a slower moving vehicle you can see in the distance but the laser hasn't "seen" yet? Maybe I'm a control freak and need to loosen up...
Are the A/C seat fans annoyingly noisy? The concept of a/c for leather seats seems like a great idea. What color are your seats? If the color is dark, black or bourdeaux, maybe that has overcome the a/c's ability to counter the sun. This year you don't have to buy the fancier leather for front climate control seats; they poke holes in the regular leather I guess.
The dynamic laser control seems somewhat scary to me. Does it ever brake hard if someone cuts you off? Do you not feel uneasy/tense "waiting" for your car to slow down behind a slower moving vehicle you can see in the distance but the laser hasn't "seen" yet? Maybe I'm a control freak and need to loosen up...
Are the A/C seat fans annoyingly noisy? The concept of a/c for leather seats seems like a great idea. What color are your seats? If the color is dark, black or bourdeaux, maybe that has overcome the a/c's ability to counter the sun. This year you don't have to buy the fancier leather for front climate control seats; they poke holes in the regular leather I guess.
"...the way it operates now...animated cartoon..." Not possible, off point and an improper analogy. Stick to nav/maps. If you want to use it, you must "agree". You can opt out of the visual display and use voice if you find glancing at the map impossible to resist or distracting. Or you can opt not to have/use it at all. It is only there for those who wish it and "agree" to it's limitations.
"...I have yet to have a cigarette take itself out of the pack, light itself,..." And I have yet to have the map turn itself on without my agreeing, stick it's display directly in my face, let alone force me to watch it. Sorry, while I respect your obviously extensive knowledge on systems in this car, I can't agree with you on this one based on your stated objections.
woppenhe: Your computer experience notwithstanding, your arguments are personal preferences - not design flaws. While you may prefer voice over display, many of us prefer the opposite or both at the same time. That is, use voice for turn guidance and command inputs, while GLANCING at the map when safe to do so. I, for one, often refer to the map display (when safe). Just bcz. you prefer it otherwise, doesn't make it a flaw.
And I'm not sure what "system informational displays" you are referring to that the nav system robs you of.
(gee, this is the best debate we've had around here for a while)
Now listen you pilots, I said DRIVE not fly!
And I mean YOU, the driver, not your navigator/companion.
I'm not saying the nav map isn't usefull, but referring to it while driving, especially for an (rapidly?)upcoming decision point, seems overly hazardous.
If I'm coming up on an intersection, directional decision point, and I don't quite understand what the voice prompting has said, I'm going to commit to one direction or the other, and then find a place to pull over and sort things out.
I also am I pilot and must admit, I cheat with the GPS all the time.
5.0L LS500 that is coming out soon?
(But I still disagree with him)
C'mon ww, you know you do. Everyone has their limits, of course, and should recognize them. I just don't like being forced to accept the limits of the lowest common denominator all the time. We can't always legislate for the incompetent.
What you suggest as hazardous can also be safely done. It's a decision. I salute yours to pull over and would do so also if there were any doubt or the circumstances warranted - but often this is not necessary. Simple as that. Of course, IMMHO.
That lowest common denominator...
Those are the people that kill the rest of us who got to be old codgers by being conservative drivers.
I'll accept the restrictions in favor of living longer.
wwest wrote: "If I'm coming up on an intersection, directional decision point, and I don't quite understand what the voice prompting has said, I'm going to commit to one direction or the other, and then find a place to pull over and sort things out"
The Nav's voice activated directions are very clear and concise. You get advance notice of an upcoming turn or freeway, could be up to 1 mile ahead. How could anyone be fuzzy on this ? And if you must glance at the screen, this should not take that much time, and still be a safe driver. I suppose many of us drive conservatively enough to maintain a safe driving distance from the cars ahead. It is all about driving habits, imo.
Given the choice with/without NAV, and based on my personal experience,I'd choose to have the NAV. I am just not good with "road maps" anyway you define it. For people like me, the Nav is just what the doctor ordered.
Good debate tho'
And when I do use it I can turn the display off (I do) and rely on the voice prompting (what idiot decided I needed a voice message to "continue on straight ahead on I205 at the next intersection"?).
Personally I won't buy another one with this intrusive mode of operation.
Where would we stop ? Only Amishes dont have to worry about many of these mechanical objects !
Ergonomics of the dashboard layout and access to controls can certainly be improved on every car out there. None is perfect ! Wheel-controls for some of these certainly help reduce distractive actions while driving. Like wwest, one can turn off the display and listen to the voice commands, annoying as it may be...
"Active" distractions, cell phones, pagers, etc.
"intrusive" distractions, being "forced" to activate a display in order to access a function integral to the vehicle's operation.
For example?
I have an 02 LS430 with Custom Lux Pkg (got it in Feb) and would be glad to share my experience with the options:
1. The NAV - if you live in a large city (I live in LA) the NAV works pretty well...it's not perfect, but it has been very useful when trying to find places that I was unfamiliar. At first I thought it would be just a wasted gimmick, (but being a guy who would never dream of asking for directions), I really found it useful and intuitive (providing you take the time to READ the instructions).
2. A/C Seats - work great in hot weather, you can really feel it. Very quiet operation. Yes, you can hear them working ever so slightly if you're not moving. You really have to listen carefully to hear them. I usually listen to music while driving (radio or CD) so I never hear the a/c seats.
3. Auto Door closers - A nice gimmick. You never have to worry about a door being ajar.
4. Sound System - Amazing. Love it. Lots has been written in previous posts. Also, I've read lots of professional reviews and everyone seems to agree that it is one of the best car sound system out there (if not THE best). But check it out for yourself. Take a test drive and bring a CD with you.
5. Park Assist - Excellent for parking. Use it all the time. You never have to worry about "kissing" the car in front/behind you.
6. Radar Cruise Control - Takes some getting used to. As others pointed out, I don't use it in heavy traffic. If someone cuts in front of you, don't wait for the cruise to take over, hit the break yourself. The cruise will usually downshift or apply some breaking action, but it may not be enough. After you use it a few times, you'll get used to it and get to know it's capabilities. One of the nice features it has is that you can modify the sensitivity (low/med/high) to detecting the car in front of you. A few posts back someone did a nice job detailing some of the things to watch for...it was consistent with my observations as well.
7. Headlight washers - useless. I live in LA, what can I say...It's always nice here. Decide for yourself.
8. Rear sun shade - A nice feature to keep the car cool. I also bought a front sun shade.
9. Upgraded leather seats - I thought the regular seats were nice. These are even nicer.
I think there are a few other little features that the Custom has, but I think I hit on the major ones.
Bottom line: I thought the Custom Lux had a nice pkg. of options for what I needed. The Utra has a few extra dodads (variable suspension and back seat comfort controls), but I never sit in the back, so all those extras do me no good. The custom had all the nice extras that I found to be useful. Hope this helps add some perspective. Good luck!! Write back and let us know what you decided and why. Might be helpful to someone else who is looking. Regards...Jeff
Also, if you push "Option", "Display", and then "Off", the Nav display goes off and stays off, even after you turn the car off and back on again. In other words, this totally disables the Nav, including the disclaimer screen (analogous to your opening the DVD door, but much easier).
In the other situation, when you are simply approaching a slower moving car from the rear, the system gently backs off and assumes it's set distance. The effect is almost un-noticeable.
As for the seat A/C fans, remember that this is a very quite car. So quite that you cannot hear your own engine. When you start the car, the only way you know when to let loose of the starter is when you see the tachometer wand come off of zero. But you can hear a background whir. Actually, they are most noticeable when you turn them down and the whir goes away. They aren't annoyingly noisey, but at idle with the audio system off, they are the most significant sound in the car.
Since you asked: my car is black, inside and out. With the gold trim, Detata chromes and sunshades, it looks like a Japanese Mafia Staff Car.
No earthshaking news, although I was pleasantly surprised to find that the "intuitive parking assist" is now included in the ML/Nav package. I don't believe the Lexus web site shows this inclusion.
My light charcoal seats do have perforated leather (because of the climate control seats now being part of the package).
Nav DVD is version "02.1" (I think) and included "points of interest" info that the salesman had not seen included before, so he felt it must be a very recent version.
Liked the feel of the Euro suspension--easily noticeable differences and a good choice for my tastes.
Options (Hard button on dash)
Information
System transition
Select On of Off
Keep your audio, climate or other screens as long as you like by selecting off.
I'm a fast and maybe an agressive driver. I'm not adversed to cornering hard. My wive's 98 LS400 with the Bridgestone 16 inch Turanza LS-H tires allow me to do all of that because of their UTGQ 400 AA A rating. Now if I was to enter the racing circuit, the 17 inch wheels with Michein Pilot Sport A/S (W rating & UTQG AA A) or the summer tire from Bridgestone (Potenza S-03)would be the tires of choice and if I'm unable to trade my wheels by the time the E33's wear out I will probably go with the Pilot Sport.
I had anticipated that my ultra with the air suspension would give an even more comfortable and softer ride than my 11 year old 90 LS400. It didn't happen and primarily because of the 17 inch wheels.
I am in the "thinking process" of going with a 2004 Ls430 when my 2001 S500 lease is over. I have only driven the Ls430 a couple of times at a dealership, and each time I had been impressed on how much more isolation the Ls was over the S. I am not an aggressive driver and have a young child with me most of the time, so the sporty features of my S500 with adaptive body control never gets any use. After 2 years, I really hate the noise from interior panels of my S500, and frankly I don't like the idea of covering the noise with loud music.
Any thoughts is appreciated!
Paul
the most meaningful figure is the aspect ratio-usually between 40 and 55 on modern sedans. A shorter sidewall(40 or so)will give more responsive steering(less squirm in the tire)but it will also give a rockier ride and increase the chance of various rattles intruding.
But an all weather tire can be composed in a way to decrease wear and noise and harshness. This same modification will also decrease the sporty responsiveness(a good trade off,IMO)of the car.
So a larger all weather tire is a fine choice in a luxury car,but stiffer sport suspensions and sport tires can often be a mistake.