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Sorry for the rant, but in short, with so much electronic equipment in auto plants today, there is so little human involvement that it makes the whole argument of "oh but my Camry is better than your Camry because it was built in Japan" sound a bit insignificant to me.
And don't get me started on Toyota cars as being not as good as they were 10 years ago.
Having personally worked as an executive in two US based Fortune 500 multinational corporations, I have first hand knowledge about how difficult it can be to maintain quality standards in a foreign environment where work ethics, culture and labor unions are of a different breed than the home country. Toyota has done an excellent job. But they aren't making Lexuses here, are they?
After this post, I'm basically done using any more keyboard time on this topic. Like Canc's post, above, I've got an AWFUL LOT of personal experience with Toyota products - we've owned 12 of them in the last 20 years - equally divided between imports and domestically produced cars. There simply isn't any difference worth talking about.
And I too have no special nostalgia for some previous generation Camrys - we've owned multiple examples of everything from the 2nd gen on, and each time they redesign the car, it gets better, not worse. All this pining for the '92 gen [the 3rd gen car] goes right by me. Our '92 was certainly not a better car than the '97 or the '02.
Finally, as a long-time Mercedes owner [14 of them since 1968], I can tell you that the fiasco with the ML at the Alabama plant illustrates PRECISELY the point some of us are making about Toyota and Honda. The problem was and is MANAGEMENT. This is why VW and BMW and MB cannot duplicate their quality in American plants, but the Japanese do so without batting an eye. Toyota and Honda have a MANAGEMENT SYSTEM that puts quality and consistency on the front burner from minute one, and is transportable to any place in the civilized world. One of the core values of that system is that they work intensively with their suppliers about quality and consistency. They jump on supplier problems quickly, and work WITH them to solve problems - the Germans stick with suppliers who are producing crap for subassemblies long after they should be fired. And the Germans are far too sloppy in picking their suppliers for their American plants in the first place.
I say again, believe whatever you want on this topic. One of these days, you will have to search long and hard to find any Toyota product under $50,000 that is made anywhere else but right here. And that includes the sacred Lexus brand...
Let's get back to the specific sedan known as a Toyota Camry.
Thanks.
The $175 was parts and labor to fix both left and right hood shocks. If you look at the 94 XLE, the shocks appear to be attached in a less-than-straightforward way. At least they explained that's why the labor was a good part of the $175 total, although I don't remember how much.
As far as the CV boots, again thanks for the explanation. On the written estimate it shows $55 each and 4 hours labor. Total parts & labor shows $476. So if that is a quantity of 4, that means $256 is labor. At 4 hours that is close to $65 per hour for labor. Is that a typical rate per hour at a Toyota dealership? Sure seems high to me. I think my GMC dealership charges about $45 per hour for labor.
TomGreen: From what you are saying, it sounds like I may be getting the split CV boots. Does that appear the same to you? 4 at $55 each? If so, I'll see what they want for the full boots.
The quote on the Power Steering Rack is $959 for parts, 4 hours labor, total is $1,215. That would also be close to $65 per hour for labor.
I know all of these posts should probably be over in Care and Maintenance, so before I get in trouble with our fine host, I'll make this the last post on the topic!
In California where I am, $80-90 per hour is more the going rate for labor at dealerships.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Camry 5 speed was peppy until hitting the speed block at 65 mph. Realize at times you do need to downshift to increase speed. Concern on the speed block at 65 if you are in hiway/interstate condition and needing to pass. Should you have to downshift to 4th to gain speed on a flat road? By the way, I did try this in this test drive - it only increased engine noise and still did not push needle above 65mph. Could there be a maintenance problem with this one car, or is this common... any ideas?
Overall, when Toyota first brought in power rack-and-pinion steering, it was not as heavy duty as it needed to be on some of the models, at least as it was explained to me.
They had this fixed by the mid-80's, and the '83 celica I just sold had only just begun to get sloppy in the rack, at 250K. The other post was the first I heard that this problem was particularly bad in camrys.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
4 CV boots/joints is correct. There is an inner and outer boot/joint on each side of the front suspension.
I am not sure what I said that made you think that I suspected you were being quoted a price for the split boots. I really am not sure what a good price quote would be. I was just commenting that if you need CV boots, make sure you are getting full boots and make sure they inspect the joints well.
Tom
Better go get your Camry
Consumer Reports measures sort of mid range acceleration times (I think it was something like 45-60 mph). I noticed that a V-6 Camry had a faster time than a Porsche Boxster. Someone on an Edmunds forum explained that the Porsche's time was slower probably because the tester simply did not downshift the manual transmission.
~alpha
~alpha
: )
Mackabee
The difference in Edmunds vs. Dealer number is usually the advertising fee. The ad feee varies by region. Sometimes a percentage of base price, sometimes a flat fee.
Car customers should be thankful there is so much information out there and that dealer will work on small percentages in relation to invoice. If consumers only knew what margins other business dealt in they would be scared at how much they make over cost.
I revisited a brief discussion on this back somewhere earlier on this thread. A dealer told someone this was normal. Someone else advised having a service manager check it out. Can't see anything exceptional about my car, so I'm thinking it really is normal. Bummer.
Has anyone had any experience at having this item fixed? Any Toyota people on this thread with an answer? Any estimates on how much damage this will cause to the drivetrain over the years?
Interestingly, the car does seem to have the ability to dampen this effect somewhat. I've experimented with moving it immediately back to neutral, then back into drive again, and the effect is lessened somewhat the second time. Both times, however, the RPMs are high to warm the engine up -- about 1600. So, if it can dampen it the second time, why not the first time.
Major things I like about this car: Very reponsive engine and drivetrain (after you get by the "clunk.") Love the 6-disc CD changer. Overall sense of quality about the car.
A couple of dislikes: You can feel the bass from the audio in the armrests--that seems cheap. The bottom of the seat cushion could be an inch or two longer, for better thigh support.
But, overall, a sweet car to drive, solid feeling, nice to look at -- Aspen Green, with standard alloys. But can someone deliver me from this "clunk"?
-alpha
I appreciate your thought, but don't see where it leads. To eliminate most of the vibration in the armrest, you might dial it all the way down to -5. Then, of course, I don't enjoy the music as much, because I like bass. My solution would be for Toyota structual and audio engineers to get their heads together and try to isolate the speaker movement from the armrest, at least as much as possible. I routinely played more bass on the car I sold (Buick Regal) to get this Camry, with no noticable feel in the armrest.
This isn't a major deal with me, just something I think Toyota can improve on. The transmission clunk is a much bigger deal.
I haven't perceived the problems with the radio and audio system you mention. I'm happy with the reception and the sound of my CDs.
I have a 2003 LE 4 cyl that has the same noise. Some people expressed surprise that this noise was so apparent, because they could barely hear it on their previous vehicles. However, I find it annoyingly loud. Also it sounds "bad" - hard to think that it is normal and not causing any damage. Here is how I satisfied myself, that my noise was the ABS self test.
Park on level ground. Turn ignition off. Start car. Lock all doors. Put in reverse. I hear a small noise that sounds like a solenoid. I think this must be part of the automatic locking system. Put into drive. Move forward a few feet. I hear the "clunk". Stop the car. Put in park. Put in reverse. I hear the small solenoid like noise again. Put in drive. Drive forward. I don't hear the "clunk" this time.
Because the "clunk" only happens one time and only after the first forward movement when starting the car, I decided that it was highly likely to be the ABS self test. This seems reasonable to me, but I am still surprised by how loud this is.
Tom
Link: http://www.cars.com/news/stories/121702_storya_an.jhtml?aff=chitrib
They said most of the complaints were from the four-cycles engine. I think this is a typo error. In my opinion, it should only cover models 1997-2001 since 2002 is a different engine (more horses: 133 against 157HP). Unless 2002 model which is also the same as 2003 has the same problem.
What do you think?
~alpha
I also wonder if reading boards like this increases awareness to issues that some may never had otherwise- when I go back home for the holidays and drive my parents' 2002 Camry, I'll probably, on some level, be LOOKING FOR THIS CLUNK. Then I can join the bad wagon of people who b**ch and moan about things so inconsequential to the quality of life. Just frekin be happy!
Face it- by nature of this board, we are nitpickers because we love our cars. Nothing is ever perfect. Live with it. If you regret buying your Camry so much, get rid of it. (I'd buy it from you). If anyone can direct me to a website, or alternate boards here, that deal more with automotive news and insider info regarding mainstream cars, please do so.
~alpha
Tom
tomgreen1000 -- I'm getting the clunk at dead rest, with my foot on the brake, moving the shift lever into "Drive," so I don't really have a chance to let the car move forward a few feet--by then the clunk has already happened. You may have a different situation, but I appreciate the thought.
xbbuster -- Thanks for the referral to 4623-4626. Actually, I had already gone back and looked at those before my first post on this subject. They seemed to be inconclusive to me, so I don't know.
alpha01 -- Your remarks (post 4876)are laced with so much sarcastic and insulting language that I would ask that you not respond to any of my posts in the future. I think Edmunds should read that post and censure you for your completely inappropriate tone. Among the worst is your comment, "If you regret buying your Camry so much, get rid of it." I've said several times that I like the car a lot. I'm only trying to get some information on something the car is doing that doesn't sound right to me. Before that, you accused me of "bitching and moaning." You're just way out of line. My posts have been factual and accommodating to anyone who might want to discuss my thoughts on the car. So please leave me alone.
With regard to my last post, I dont see how it was overly sarcastic- I was just pointing to the fact that many classify their issues with their vehicles as "problems" when often, they are merely "annoyances".
Sorry man (or woman). Didnt mean to offend you.
~alpha
However, over the past few months, I've noticed a change in the tone and atmosphere here and it's pretty negative. I've seen a lot of rather hostile exchanges on other boards, esp the Mazda6, and Accord topics. I had pretty much figured that the rather heated discussions stemmed from the fact that both of these cars are new for 2003 (or newly revised rather).
The Camry forum has traditionally been a less volatile and more polite forum, albeit less traveled, IMHO. Now some of the aforementioned unpleasantness appears to have "leaked in" in here. It's not as bad, but I am finding these recent trends sad and disappointing and I felt like expressing them. These are my opinions only, but I think they have validity. These days one is almost afraid to post their opinions on the TH for fear of being set up in raging flames if their views are unpopular. If so, then so be it.
On topic, I am enjoying my 2000 Camry as much as I did the first day I drove it off the lot 3 years ago on Dec. 13th. I have had 34,000 trouble free miles on it and it still looks showroom new. Although I had considered trading it for something "flashier", I think I will stick with it for a few more years. People in general (at least here on Edmunds) like to criticize the Camry for various reasons, but I think it's a great car, smooth and reliable. It was a smart purchase for me and I intend to enjoy it a while longer. Down the road, I may trade it for a Toyota Highlander. I'm not an "SUV person" but I really like the Highlander. I guess I'm just a Toyota fan after all. :-)
: )
Mackabee
Happy Holidays to you and your family as well.
: )
Mackabee