Subaru Crew - Meet The Members II

jei · March 2002

Graham -

Interesting to read your comments on Subaru's market position outside of North America. My take on the US is that only recently is Subaru really starting to pull away from the long-standing generic Japanese car perception / price range here. Only in the last decade have Japanese cars been widely seen as both premium and relatively "mainstream". The mainstream American market is not that rational. Style and perception often reign, along by low (first cost) price. Even then, top selling (and most stolen) cars have included Toyota & Honda mid-size and compacts for years now.

Well - publicized rally fame, and steady success in the enthusiast press with decreasing use of the word "quirky" (So many Americans get very stuck on conventional thinking and not realize it) have helped. I think the Outback, Forester, and now WRX have been steadily moving Subaru beyond the "4 wheel drive utility car for counter culture types in the snowbelt" perception to a slightly broader appeal as a thoughtfully designed, higher performance alternative. In the Northeast, Subaru competes strongly below the value & price point perceptions of Volvo (almost as safe, cheaper to run & more fun to drive), and Audi (AWD and fun-to-drive for less money + better reliablity). I think that Subaru is working its way upmarket largely in this direction. For the practical-minded with lesser budgets, Subaru has been steadily differentiating itself from the Toyota, Nissan & Honda designs.

My experience: I replaced a mid-80s Toyota 4wd Tercel wagon with a Forester in '99 because the Forester was a more subtantial package than the RAV4, and MUCH more fun to drive. - Back in the '80s, Toyota won hands down for me over Subaru on design, handling, comfort and local price.

I posted a suggestion earlier this week that Subaru introduce a "field & utility" package with low range, skid plates, heated mirrors & unpainted cladding, to round out their increasingly "sport wagon" range. Sounds like a more Australian variant to me. I'm sure it would sell, particularly in the Forester range. I expect we'll see some selective "re-contenting" here in the next years, particularly if Subaru plays the niche markets well.

- John

rsholland · March 2002

And I agree with them too.

I particularly like the "field and utility" package concept John mentioned. I would also like to see a "towing group" to be included with the field & utility package.

Speaking of towing: we have all discussed/debated the trailer brake issue for some time here. Since brakes are the weak point, as far as Subaru is concerned, in terms of towing, wouldn't it make sense, if they were to offer a "towing group package," to also include beefier brakes as part of that package? That way, they could lift the unbraked towing restriction altogether.

Bob

jei · March 2002

would probably require the Tort Reform /Limit of Liability / Legal Aid Package. Not available in the USA. Sorry!

hondafriek · March 2002

Well guys you showed me your compassion when I had to have my beloved little friend Toby put to sleep.

Now share my joy meet Mac the newest member of the crew.

He is five weeks old here. he is a mini schnauzer for anyonre who is interested.

v

Cheers Pat. Ps he is the one on the left beside the shoe.

hammersley · March 2002

Actually put TMV to professional use today... had to estimate the value of a car before it caught on fire (for the report)... needless to say, a run-out 79 Celica didn't come back worth much, but at least it confirmed what I already knew!

Cheers!
Paul

rsholland · March 2002

Very cute... Glad you got another dog.

Bob

armac13 · March 2002

I think he's going to be a little sweetheart. Bet you can hardly wait. Having bred golden retrievers in the past, I know how hard in can be to wait after the pup has been chosen. Best of luck to both of you.

Ross

tincup47 · March 2002

Most states have a maximum weight for unbraked trailers, in California it's 1500lbs. Most manufacturers keep their recommendations at the this or less for liability reasons. Check Boat US for complete listing of state towing laws.

http://www.boatus.com/towing/towlaw.htm

grahampeters · March 2002

G'day

Very cute. I think they are a real character breed. Hop the puppy phase is not too awful.

Cheers

Graham

rsholland · March 2002

Thanks for the link. Some states (W. VA) have no trailer brake requirement at all.

If every state have a trailer brake requirement of anything over 1000 pounds required brakes, then this on-going discussion would be unnecessary. The problem, as you knowespecially here in Maryland, is finding any trailer under 3000 GVW, with brakes. They don't exist, and no dealer is going to them on (unless you request them), because the trailers would become too expensive to sell.

It's a "Catch 22." I've been to several trailer dealers, and every one of them I spoke to were unaware of trailer brake restrictions that car/truck manufacturers put on their vehicle. In fact, when I've mentioned it to them, several expressed complete surprise. Same with many car dealers. Many weren't aware that their vehicles had trailer brake restrictions.

One trailer dealer came out and said we will sell you any trailer, but it's up to the customer to equip the trailer as they see fit. That's true, but many "new" trailer customers are unaware of what they should have. It's not so much a matter of owner responsibility, but more a matter of ignorance on their part.

Bob

cptplt · March 2002

Just got my first coupons, did I read correctly on the back that I can't use them for a purchase of a new car till I have had the card for 37 months!! Sounds daft to me!

hondafriek · March 2002

Bob Ross and Graham, thanks for the good wishs, and yes Ross the wait is hard, especially after spending some time with him on Thursday.

Cheers Pat.

kens · March 2002

Very cute! I'm hoping for some good times between you and Mac.

Ken

paisan · March 2002

Again, I have to agree with Tincup (this is becoming an often occurance) that the manufactueres are going to go with the least common denomenator which is 1500lbs apparently in CA for un-breaked trailers. Like I said, my Trooper has VERY VERY beefy brakes and it has the same 1000lb limit on un-breaked trailers. You need to use common sense when towing, most trailers up to 3000lbs can be towed safely w/o trailer brakes. If you plan on towing, you should get out there and test it out, compare your std braking power to the trailer power etc. It's not something a manufacturer is going to tell you to go out and do, but I'd guess that up to 2K lbs (the towing capacity of the subarus) you will be fine w/o brakes.

-mike

ateixeira · March 2002

Cute pup, Pat, and best of all he doesn't look like a cat! ;-)

On towing: I was surprised to find out that Subaru puts an engine oil cooler on Foresters with automatic, but not 5 speeds. Perhaps they expect more auto owners will tow?

But they already have it in the parts bin, and it's an easy install. Maybe they could add a tranny oil cooler, and vented rear disc brakes (for better cooling). That plus I'd like to see a harness with 9 points instead of just 4 like I have now. In fact I don't think mine will even plug into a trailer with brakes, ironically.

The harness coupled with Bob's observation that Class I trailers don't come with brakes essentially means Subaru is limiting towing to 1000 lbs, at least legally. All this even after UK publications are giving Subies awards for being great tow vehicles, it doesn't make sense.

-juice

rsholland · March 2002

in a sense. "Yes," it can tow 2000 pounds if you have trailer brakes. Catch is you won't find a Class I trailer with brakes, and/or to add brakes, you'll probably double your expense when you consider you also have to wire your car and add a trailer brake control to the interior.

So, if you're rich, it may not be a problem; but for mere mortals like myself, it's a different matter...

I'm sure SOA knows this. So, yes, you "can" tow 2000 pounds, but the reality (if you don't want to worry about any possible warranty and/or legal issues) you'll limit your load to under 1000 pounds.

Bob

ateixeira · March 2002

What I'm asking is this - can you have trailer brakes with the 4-point harness Subaru provides? I'm not sure, but I don't think you can.

-juice

tincup47 · March 2002

Unfortunately, it is impracticle at present for the vehicle manufacturer to have reasonable towing recommendations due to the different state standards and liability concerns. It is also not cost effective to supply all the different trailer wiring plugs, hence they offer the most popular (flat 4 pin) for the towing the vehicle is most likely to do.

rsholland · March 2002

At least not electric brakes. Every trailer dealer that I've spoken to say they use electric brakes, as opposed to surge brakes. Not one trailer dealer that I've spoken to thinks much of surge brakes. They're all in agreement on that issue.

Bob

rsholland · March 2002

if brakes are the weak point, that offering HD brakes as an option would eliminate the need for trailer brakes, at least up to 2000 pounds.

Bob

ateixeira · March 2002

The 2002 has bigger front rotors, right? That's why they made the 16" rims standard even on the L model.

It's odd to me that the Forester S has rear disc brakes but doesn't have a different tow rating than the L. I'd like to see rear disc brakes standard across the entire lineup, so maybe then they could rate them 1500/2000 instead of 1000/2000.

CR-V has 4 discs now (albeit sans ABS on the LX), and it's the main competition. Outback Sport had them at first but they fell victim to cost cutting. Since Subaru is re-contenting now, that would be a good place to start.

Not to mention, good brakes benefit every owner, not just those who tow.

-juice

rsholland · March 2002

in having this on-going trailer brake discussion is for Subie owners to fully be able to make use of their "so-called" 2000 pound towing capacity, without worry of possible future warranty or legal issues. If something should happen, something breaks or you have an accident, because the trailer weighed over 1000 pounds (without brakes), you would be on the short end of the stick from a claims standpoint.

Offering HD brakes as an option, just seems to me to be the most cost-effective way to address this problem.

Bob

tincup47 · March 2002

Disc brakes offer no additional braking power over drum systems. The only advantages they have are fade resistance and possibly less sensitivity.

ateixeira · March 2002

My concern wouldn't be braking power, because I have drums and they are very effective. With a heavy trailer behind me, I'd be worried about heat build-up and the resulting brake fade.

Bob: I'm curious, what exactly would you like to see? The front rotors are already bigger for 2003, and that's with 90 fewer pounds to halt. So my thinking went straight to the rear brakes. Put discs in back, maybe even vented (overkill?).

The old Forester led the class in braking, so the new one should be even better.

-juice

locke2c · March 2002

Tincup, I nearly spit on my monitor over that comment.

It's completely ridiculous. Are you trying to justify the existence of drum brakes being due to anything besides cost?

Drums fade badly enough that simple consecutive 60-0 tests will show a massive difference in performance, to say nothing of driving through hills / mountains, heavy traffic, etc.

-Colin

subaru_team · March 2002

Mac is a little sweetie! How wonderful for him to get such a great family!

Patti

tincup47 · March 2002

I was just referring to stopping power. For rear wheel applications (except performance vehicles), drum brakes are more than adequate. Most (if not all) Trucks that have large towing capacities have drum rear brakes. As 70% of braking is from the fronts, in most cases rear drum brakes are fine.

ateixeira · March 2002

GM went to 4 wheel discs. Before that, they were known for their awful braking. Remember the Volvo ad with the kids throwing snow balls at the Suburban?

I think Dodge now uses 4 discs as well.

-juice

rsholland · March 2002

In terms of HD brakes, I don't know. Whatever it takes to handle another 1000 pounds safely.

Bob

paisan · March 2002

The major advantage of Discs over drums I thought was water evacuation/resistance to fade after hitting standing water?

Towing: Bob et-al: You can't just slap on bigger brakes and allow people to tow 2000lbs when in CA and other states they require brakes on 1000lb or 1500lb trailers. Also it's totally impracticle for manufacturers to include all the different wiring harnesses (there are sever different styles). There are very few if ANY vehicles on the market in the US you will find that doesn't put in the disclaimer that "over 1000lbs requires trailer brakes" its there to CYA. As for being rich, if you are rich enough to buy a trailer, you'll just have to spring for the brakes to go with it.:) I think the reson for the lack of surge brakes out there is federal safety stds for commercial vehicles require electric brakes. At least that is what 2 dealers told me when I was recently shopping for automobile-transports for the XT6.

-mike

rsholland · March 2002

<< Towing: Bob et-al: You can't just slap on bigger brakes and allow people to tow 2000lbs when in CA and other states they require brakes on 1000lb or 1500lb trailers. >>

California is one of the few states, perhaps only(?) state, that has trailer brake restrictions that low. So for there, you would still need trailer brakes. I bet in CA finding Class I trailers with brakes is no problem at all. In fact I bet, because of the state law, virtually every trailer sold in CA has brakes.

Bob

tincup47 · March 2002

I doubt it. In most states trailers are not subject to any inspection procedure to register them. Those regulations are for the operation of the vehicle, not the sale or manufacture of them. I doubt if people from out of state that move there add brakes either.

paisan · March 2002

Bob manufacturers build cars to the lowest common denominator (hence CA emissions cars sold in nearly all 50 states) so as long as CA want's to be different you are going to have manufacturers selling CA-certified vehicles. Also as Tincup said I bet most trailers sold in CA do not have brakes, it's an "upgrade" package that the trailer place will sell you. Welcome to the RV/Boat world, everything is an option, and you pay through the nose for it. Gots to pay to play!

-mike

hypov · March 2002

ateixeira · March 2002

I agree, but if we use the lowest common denominator, Subaru should at least match it. I think if they changed the ratings to 1500/2000 that it would please lots of folks. There seem to be lots of trailers that are just over the 1000 pound limit. Many campers, for example.

-juice

paisan · March 2002

What are other manufacturers/vehicles that we know of with >1000lb un-breaked towing capacity *STOCK* just curious.

-mike

rsholland · March 2002

Chevy Blazer, TrailBlazer & other GM varaitions.

Nissan Pathfinder & Xterra (probably Frontier too?).

Isuzu Trooper, and I would assume Rodeo and Axiom too.

Land Rover Freelander(?).

Dodge Dakota and Durango (not sure)

Mitsubishi Montero & Montero Sport (not sure, but I think they have this limit too).

Not sure about Toyotas.

Ford nor Jeep have no trailer brake restriction on any of their SUVs or trucks.

CRV can tow 1500 pounds (don't think there is a brake restriction?).

Bob

paisan · March 2002

Isuzus are limited to 1000lbs un-braked according to my manuals.

-mike

paisan · March 2002

So you mean to tell me you can tow a 5000lb trailer behind a jeep w/o any brakes on it? I don't think so. It may be un-published except in the manual, but I'll bet it's in there.

-mike

rsholland · March 2002

I don't think there's a limitation. I could be wrong. There is a limitation of 2000 pounds on the Wrangler. I don't know if there is a brake restriction, however.

Bob

ateixeira · March 2002

My dad used to pull a 19' Aristocraft I/O with his Olds Custom Cruiser wagon. It had a big V8, but progress was slow and deliberate. Stopping was a little too dramatic if you ask me. I'm all for trailer brakes!

-juice

paisan · March 2002

Of course the Custom Cruiser had a V8 455ci engine, was 10-15" longer than a '97 suburban and had 3 rows of seats!

I had a 98 which was roughly the same car! The brakes barely stopped the car iteself hee hee.

-mike

ateixeira · March 2002

I would open the windows and put my arms out to create aerodynamic drag. It would actually significantly reduce stopping distances! ;-)

-juice

paisan · March 2002

Well after having driven the XT6 MT for about 100 miles on thurs night, I auto-xed yesterday co-driving my buddy's RS MT. Well talk about initiation by fire! Auto-x is difficult as it is, trying to figure out where the course is, where to turn etc. But learning how to drive a MT at the same time compounds it! I pulled out a respectable time for my last run of the day so I was happy about that. Waiting to see the actual results tonight though.

-mike

bsvoller · March 2002

I'm not sure what you some of you guys are talking about with the whole trailer brake thing, frankly. We bought a class I camper, used, had trailer brakes and controller installed for around $600 at the camper dealer - no questions asked, they do it all the time. Worth every penny. I wouldn't even consider towing more than 1000# with a 3000# vehicle through the mountains without an electric trailer braking package.

Considering that I bought a 5 year old used camper at something like 25% of its original purchase cost, $600 for brakes seems cheap - I paid $3000 for the camper. It would have been even cheaper as a percentage of the purchase price had we bought a new camper. It's absolutely a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned - part of the true cost of owning and using a trailer in the Rocky Mountain region.

As to surge brakes, I wouldn't recommend them in the mountains. I understand that surge brakes come on whenever the trailer rides into the hitch, so that not only will the brakes engage when the tow vehicle decelerates, but also for the entire time you drive downhill. That can be an extended period in these parts. I'd be concerned about the trailer brakes overheating and fading into uselessness or worse (fire risk, bearing failure come to mind).

What we did find hard to find were camper trailers rated for less than 2000#'s. Even 1500# campers are non-existent. So the CRV and similar rated to 1500#'s braked or unbraked are simply not useful in the real world. At the time we were looking, even the Grand Vitarra was rated to 1500# max, despite its frame, V-6 and low-range gearing.

The Forester does meet minimum requirements for practical towing, but barely. Better braking, tow package, etc, as discussed here would certainly be welcome, but I disagree with some of the posts that imply that the Forester is not for real. Indeed, as of MY '01, it was head and shoulders above anything else in the class (excluding makes that can't meet reasonable safety and reliability requirements, that is)

Just my .02...

rsholland · March 2002

<< but I disagree with some of the posts that imply that the Forester is not for real. >>

Nobody said or even implied that. What most of us are saying is that all Subarus, not just Foresters, should be able to tow 2000 pounds, with or without brakes.

$600 for electric brakes may not seem like much if you're talking about a camper trailer. However, I can buy a 2000 pound rated utility trailer for the same amount of money. Add brakes, and you've doubled the cost.

Bob

paisan · March 2002

I think you are whining here a bit. No offense but is there a price on safety? I don't think so.

You are never going to see any manufacturer rate a vehicle to tow above the state with the most restrictive brake laws, which someone said is CA at 1500lbs. Subaru always errs on the side of CYA, so they rate em at 1000lbs which is 500 less than the state with the most restrictive law.

-mike

bluesubie · March 2002

Just felt like saying that.
Thank you.

-Dennis

locke2c · March 2002

I thought one of your XTs was a manual?

-Colin

hypov · March 2002

Just felt like asking that.
:wide wide grin:
:-D

-Dave

Subaru Crew - Meet The Members II

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