They have sold 1 WRX already (sight unseen), to a 35-year old accountant, who is a woman. That surprised me a little, because its bringing in a different market than I expected.
They are expecting delivery of the WRXs in April.
Other news: Outback Sedan (in Canada) will only come with a H6 for the coming model year.
Not surprised about the H-6 Outback sedan. I was wondering if they will still offer the H-4 Outback sedan here in the States. I hope not. It would seem rather frivolous to have two Outback sedans. I'm also wondering if the '02 Outback H-6 sedan will get the VDC?? I also hope they drop the word "Limited" from the name.
The exchange rate is around 1.45, however the prices are obviously fixed to some rate. My 2000 base 5sp Outback MSRP was 31,395. I don't know what the American equivalent was (21?).
Maybe I should also note that the Canadian OB models also came with the winter package standard.
You guys could just buy a WRX, and move the motor over to your current legacy GTs Or better yet, get in good with your dealer and buy the whole motor and associated parts and put it into your legacy Then you'd have a legacy w/ the turbo. Personally I'd go for the H6, much easier logistically.
Or better yet turbo the 2.5l, that would yield more power than a turbo 2.0l
Go with Paisan's suggestion. A 2.5l with a turbo kit ($2k on the group buy) will have more torque down low than the 2 liter. You could have a GT turbo for under $25k.
Cut Forester production? Bad idea. They still sell every one, and I imagine the profit margin on the Forester is higher than on the WRX (given it's got to be an expensive engine to manufacture).
Instead, just boost production of the WRX engine and put it in the Forester! Then send me one! :-)
I don't like that yellow. If I'm buying yellow, I want it to be loud, and fit the car's character. That pastel does not.
Cool. This is the site of my salesguy, Joe Spitz. He works for Carter Subaru in Seattle, about 5-miles from my house. Carter has been selling Soobs and only Soobs since 1976. In fact, they have the first Soob they ever sold in the showroom. It's a torquoise DL wagon (God, they were ugly then!). Anyhow, Carter has the second largest parts inventory in the Nation and their svc dept is open 7-days a week w/free loaners (like I'm ever going to need this). :-)
I'm surprised that Carter is selling the Rex at MSRP though. In Flemington NJ you can get it for $600 over invoice. There's a dealer in upstate NY selling them at $400 over invoice.
The OBS is up $500, but you get the 2.5l engine and more space.
The TS didn't have an equivalent model. It's $1100 more than the old L model, but it'll have a bigger engine and probably a lot more equipment.
You guys check out the Chicago Auto Show coverage?
New Ram: headlights ripped off BMW. HCD6: put that engine and tranny in the Santa Fe! Toyota RSC: by Pontiac? SVT Focus: 170hp, 17" rims, 6sp for $18K!
I am actually a little disappointed that the cheapest Impreza is so highly priced. Once upon-a-time it could actually compete with Civics...
The other issue is that the 2.5 TS is so closely priced to the OBS ($1000 diff), why would anyone get the TS? (You get significantly more options with the OBS).
They tried to compete with Civics, but I disagree that there should be a cheaper Impreza to be directly in that market. They can't beat the Civic, Focus, Corolla, etc. at their game so why waste money trying?
hmmm....maybe Q will like the TS wagon. It is cheaper than a WRX.... she still wants to see the Mini.
She chopped off all her hair yesterday. Zowie, musta been almost 18 inches. I guess that's what turning 30 does to some people!
TURBO a 2.5 for 2K?! Yer dreamin, dude. The 2.5 is a finicky plant for such things, as it is a bored out 2.2. Plus you have to uprate the clutch, fuel delivery, exhaust, and such. According to Rallispec, the real world cost of turbo-ing the 2.5 is around 5K on the low site, 7K on the WAY outside (tranny mounts, flywheel, cold air intake, driveshafts, etc)
Lana always "threatens" to do that. I tell her I'm like Sampson and she's my Dalila.
Depends on the level of boost you want. You can run 5psi with just the group buy kit. The thing is, people want 12psi, and they you're talking an entire new vehicle, basically.
Rallispec does things right. I'm sure they over-engineer their mods, and their customers are the type that want lots of boost (that's why they go to them).
-juice
PS PiperCub is installing his group buy kit very soon. Parts are in. Let's keep our eyes out and pay a visit one of these days.
I think a 2.5 turboed would totally kick a 2.0 turbo's butt. If you did it correctly, the extra cubes would yield far more torque and hp. But what would be real nice...
I suppose that you can argue that Civics might not the most logical competitor for Imprezas, but I'd certainly see the sportier versions of the Ford Focus as appealing to the same market as the Impreza, and I'd hope that Subaru would take that into account when calculating the Impreza pricing.
Focus is domestic. I think the Impy's main rivals will be other imports.
Civic went soft and gave up the wish bones. So Civic and Integra owners are targets. Former Esclipse turbo owners, too. Maybe Celica owners. Sentra SE-R, too.
stop at 3.0l? might as well go with a 5l....heck a turbo 7l! there comes a point where you want balance. a 2.0l is design for turbo and for most applications it works well. deliver good power reliably. For the 2.5l, you require alot of tuning to get it run properly. It will ultimately have more power if you do it properly by spending lots of cash and time into it. But not everyone can do that.
Also there is a 3.0l subaru engine already out there. It's a matter of time before it will have an aftermarket turbo. Heck a 3.3L H6 TT would be nice in an SVX...
The 2002 RS has no hood scoop, no alum hood, no spoiler, no moonroof, no foglights and no rear LSD... Personally, I see $1000+ worth of missing items there, not $500! But, aparently the RS will have the WRX's suspension, and thats what I want (I dont want, nor can afford a Turbo, and I care more about the handling than the speed)
The Impreza doesnt really have any compeditors... The new Jetta Wagon would be the TS and OBS main compeditor, along with the Focus wagon, but neither of them are as versitile or as powerful (Dont even mention the Jetta 4motion with v6, thats like $22k+). As for sedans, the RS is still the cheapest AWD car on the market. And the new "more normal" styling will attrack Jetta, Civic, Focus, etc. buyers who might want more power or versitility or just a plain old better car
Personally, not to offend anyone, but, I wouldnt touch an OBS with a 10 foot stick... I CANT STAND that [insert flagrant remark here] gold trimming! Plus, I dont want the extra height and weight, that screws up handling AND speed!!! I'd buy the TS if I cant get an RS.
The Focus DOES compete with the Import compact cars, thats what it was designed (and has done rather well mind you) to do. Too bad they had this whole reliability smear, or I would have gotten one already :P
I owned a 2000 ZX3 that recently went to my fiancee. All of the recall items have dealt with silly things that didn't seem to affect the car one way or the other - mostly it was the nuisance factor of dealing with them that made some people grumble, and of course the media has a field day with any problems related to Ford. I have an order in for a WRX, but I'm starting to cool slightly. I don't really need AWD where I live and the thought of owning a turbo-ed car is giving me second thoughts. I may wait and look at an RS sedan, or possibly wait until later in the fall when the SVT Focus arrives. 170HP and a Getrag six-speed would be big fun in that car - it has a terrific chassis. I'm very much from the school that feels "it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow"
It's not the looks of the OBS that sell it. In terms of specs, it adds a whole load of extras over the TS for just $1000 more. For example: 16" alloys compared to 15" steel rims on the TS. Heated seats. Extra power outlets. Roof rack with crossbars. [and there's more] Btw - the height difference is only 5 mm... not 2 inches, not exactly going to drastically change handling.
And I would disagree with the remark that Subaru does not need to compete with Civics / Proteges / Focii. The auto business is about market share and making $$$. And the entry-class is an absolutely HUGE market. Subaru doesn't have an affordable entry level vehicle.
I have an OBS for it's function, not it's handling or looks. I've taken it through beaches, forests and other places I know the slight height definately helped. Also make frequent use of the rear power outlet. Of course since my wife has an OB, I have my eye on something else for the future.:-)
I'm also surprised that the TS cost what it does. But how many sub-20K cars with full time AWD are out there?? I'm sure it would be successful even if they kept the 2.2L in there. Everyone is always screaming about horsepower though.
Silver bullet - once you drive AWD a few times in heavy rain, you will not want to drive anything else. :-) Dennis
and we almost run out of the country. They then decided on an all AWD strategy and going upscale and they doubled the number of cars they sold. If you are small you have to have something to distinguish you from the others, if not then the sheer number of TV ad's etc will wear you down. I am also worried that Subaru will get too carried away and go upscale too fast and have problems in case of a recession, but so far they have proven that they know more about auto marketing than I do.
the TS is not that a good buy if you look closely. No 16 forged alloys. Comes with 15 steelies, no heated seats (front), no extra gauges (males love gauges), no cargo cover, no tray ...no nothing! it's good for a base model. But evne so it is priced too high to compete with entry level sport wagons. It should be <16k IMHO. I'm not crazy about the OBS' goldish underside 2 tone either. They should've stayed with the platinum slate on the 99 OBS.
You can't get jack for less that 16K. Ok, if they take out power windows, door locks, a/c, awd, 2.5l engine, disc brakes, etc you'll get an econobox, but then, people will still buy the hondas, etc.
Not everyone likes alloy 16" rims and guages. As someone said above, you need to make a niche market or else you will loose when you go head to head with the big guys.
It's kinda like warfare. You can't be the small guy and just go running into a field expecting to take out the opposing huge army. You need to stratigically place your people, and take pop shots very accurately. When you are a big guy you can go on a rampage in a field loose a few soldiers but win the battle.
I read a book "Marketing Warfare" that made the exact same points, if you are a smaller player out-flanking your opponent works, frontal assults don't. (They used Lite beer from Miller as an example)
Sometimes it works to run your own race, stay true to what you are, and stop trying to be all things to all people - look at Harley-Davidson. Porsche used to be a good automotive icon, but the upcoming Cayenne SUV has lots of diehards grumbling. I hope Subaru doesn't lose sight of what makes them special in a rush for market share.
For auto manufacturers that specialize in Niche vehicles is going to be maintaining market share. Isuzu stopped importing cars totally a few years ago to concentrate on trucks and SUV's. At the time there were probably 20-25 SUV's on the market, that number has doubled and is continuing to rise. Isuzu is having to offer large incentives to maintain sales. Other brands will be facing similar problems as more SUV's become available. Some of the new models will spur increased demand, but a lot of dilution of market share will also occur. Market saturation is a real problem. Subaru could face the same problems as more companies offer AWD vehicles.
Let's look at the N.A. Subaru MSRP numbers shall we?
Organized by price
Impreza TS - 17,495, compact Impreza OBS - 18,695, compact Impreza RS - 18,995, compact Legacy L Sedan - 19,295, midsize Legacy L WGN - 19,995, midsize Forester L - 20,295, small SUV Forester S - 22,895, small SUV Legacy GT - 23,795, midsize Outback - 22,885, midsize Legacy GT SDN - 22,895, midsize Legacy GT WGN - 23,795, midsize Impreza WRX WGN - 23,495, compact Impreza WRX SDN - 23,995, compact Legacy GT Ltd - 24,395, midsize Outback LTD SDN - 25,995, midsize Outback LTD WGN - 26,295, midsize Outback H6 LL-BEAN - 29,495, midsize Outback H6 VDC - 31,885, midsize
I can *clearly* see several problems here.
1. price differentiation between 1 model and the next is nearly meaningless 2. same model differentiation by feature throughout the lineup is minor, and mostly consists of "luxury" upgrades, exception: H6 and WRX 3. market coverage by model is negligible, with the exception of the H6 Outbacks and WRX [which break new ground]. Otherwise they are compacts & midsizes. 4. market coverage by price is pretty slim, with the exception of the H6 models priced in the stratosphere. 5. here's the kicker: all of them have a 2.5 L engine, with the exception of the 2 H6 models and the 2 WRX models.
Mostly, what I see here is alot of overlap and lack of differentation. I see 3 classes of vehicles here. 2.5 L, 2.0 turbos, and H6s, the latter 2 being extremely oriented toward niche markets.
Model placement (by price) seems to be have some anamolies, but to Subaru's credit is mostly consistent. ie. Imprezas at the low end, Outbacks at the high end.
Anyway, the point of this exercise: take a look at the lineup for Honda or Toyota. And if you consider Subaru a niche automaker, than compare it to VW's lineup.
Comments
The impreza line up in Canada for 2002:
3 wagons:
TS Wagon ~ 23000
Outback Sport ~ 27000
WRX Wagon ~ 35000
2 sedans:
RS Sedan ~ 29000
WRX ~ 34000
They have sold 1 WRX already (sight unseen), to a 35-year old accountant, who is a woman. That surprised me a little, because its bringing in a different market than I expected.
They are expecting delivery of the WRXs in April.
Other news:
Outback Sedan (in Canada) will only come with a H6 for the coming model year.
Bob
the models though, are exact. there will be 5 imprezas
amish: What does that RS sedan and TS wagon convert to in US dollars? target=_blank
Maybe I should also note that the Canadian OB models also came with the winter package standard.
Bob
http://www.autonews.com/html/main/nada/subaru206.htm
>"There is only a finite number of WRXs," Hicks said. "We got them to take some production away from the Forester and put it into the WRX."
Re-allocate production from Forester to WRX? Cool.
..Mike
..Mike
Or better yet turbo the 2.5l, that would yield more power than a turbo 2.0l
-mike
Cut Forester production? Bad idea. They still sell every one, and I imagine the profit margin on the Forester is higher than on the WRX (given it's got to be an expensive engine to manufacture).
Instead, just boost production of the WRX engine and put it in the Forester! Then send me one! :-)
I don't like that yellow. If I'm buying yellow, I want it to be loud, and fit the car's character. That pastel does not.
-juice
http://www.cars101.com/impreza.html#2002%20Impreza
Scroll down a bit and the prices are at the top of the table that compares the models.
As many of you know, this site is run by a car salesman, so hopefully its pretty accurate.
Kris
hutch
Stephen
We'll soon find out, anyway.
-juice
Dennis
-juice
2002MY MANUFACTURER'S SUGGESTED RETAIL PRICES
(Current as of February 1, 2001)
WRX Sedan 2002MY MSRP*
-- 5-Speed Manual Transmission $23,995
-- 4-Speed Automatic Transmission $24,995
WRX Sport Wagon
-- 5-Speed Manual Transmission $23,495
-- 4-Speed Automatic Transmission $24,495
2.5 RS Sedan
-- 5-Speed Manual Transmission $18,995
-- 4-Speed Automatic Transmission $19,795
2.5 TS Sport Wagon
-- 5-Speed Manual Transmission $17,495
-- 4-Speed Automatic Transmission $18,295
Outback Sport
-- 5-Speed Manual Transmission $18,695
-- 4-Speed Automatic Transmission $19,495
The RS sedan is actually DOWN $500.
The OBS is up $500, but you get the 2.5l engine and more space.
The TS didn't have an equivalent model. It's $1100 more than the old L model, but it'll have a bigger engine and probably a lot more equipment.
You guys check out the Chicago Auto Show coverage?
New Ram: headlights ripped off BMW.
HCD6: put that engine and tranny in the Santa Fe!
Toyota RSC: by Pontiac?
SVT Focus: 170hp, 17" rims, 6sp for $18K!
-juice
I like the new Ram—a lot, especially the new Quad-Cab. It's the only 1/2 ton crew cab that's available with both a short and long bed.
Bob
-mike
Bob
http://us.media.daimlerchrysler.com/index_e.htm
-juice
-mike
Ross
Caroline
The other issue is that the 2.5 TS is so closely priced to the OBS ($1000 diff), why would anyone get the TS? (You get significantly more options with the OBS).
I'm sure they have the TS because not everyone wants that wagon-on-steroids look of the Outback line.
-juice
-Colin
She chopped off all her hair yesterday. Zowie, musta been almost 18 inches. I guess that's what turning 30 does to some people!
TURBO a 2.5 for 2K?! Yer dreamin, dude. The 2.5 is a finicky plant for such things, as it is a bored out 2.2. Plus you have to uprate the clutch, fuel delivery, exhaust, and such. According to Rallispec, the real world cost of turbo-ing the 2.5 is around 5K on the low site, 7K on the WAY outside (tranny mounts, flywheel, cold air intake, driveshafts, etc)
Lana always "threatens" to do that. I tell her I'm like Sampson and she's my Dalila.
Depends on the level of boost you want. You can run 5psi with just the group buy kit. The thing is, people want 12psi, and they you're talking an entire new vehicle, basically.
Rallispec does things right. I'm sure they over-engineer their mods, and their customers are the type that want lots of boost (that's why they go to them).
-juice
PS PiperCub is installing his group buy kit very soon. Parts are in. Let's keep our eyes out and pay a visit one of these days.
3.0L H6 Turbo
-mike
Civic went soft and gave up the wish bones. So Civic and Integra owners are targets. Former Esclipse turbo owners, too. Maybe Celica owners. Sentra SE-R, too.
-juice
Also there is a 3.0l subaru engine already out there. It's a matter of time before it will have an aftermarket turbo. Heck a 3.3L H6 TT would be nice in an SVX...
-mike
The Impreza doesnt really have any compeditors... The new Jetta Wagon would be the TS and OBS main compeditor, along with the Focus wagon, but neither of them are as versitile or as powerful (Dont even mention the Jetta 4motion with v6, thats like $22k+).
As for sedans, the RS is still the cheapest AWD car on the market. And the new "more normal" styling will attrack Jetta, Civic, Focus, etc. buyers who might want more power or versitility or just a plain old better car
Personally, not to offend anyone, but, I wouldnt touch an OBS with a 10 foot stick... I CANT STAND that [insert flagrant remark here] gold trimming! Plus, I dont want the extra height and weight, that screws up handling AND speed!!! I'd buy the TS if I cant get an RS.
The Focus DOES compete with the Import compact cars, thats what it was designed (and has done rather well mind you) to do. Too bad they had this whole reliability smear, or I would have gotten one already :P
And I would disagree with the remark that Subaru does not need to compete with Civics / Proteges / Focii. The auto business is about market share and making $$$. And the entry-class is an absolutely HUGE market. Subaru doesn't have an affordable entry level vehicle.
I'm also surprised that the TS cost what it does. But how many sub-20K cars with full time AWD are out there?? I'm sure it would be successful even if they kept the 2.2L in there. Everyone is always screaming about horsepower though.
Silver bullet - once you drive AWD a few times in heavy rain, you will not want to drive anything else. :-)
Dennis
2.5l engine
AWD
4wheel disc w/Anti-lock
Those items are either not available or at an extremely high premium on the Civic, Corolla, Focus, neon...
-mike
Frank
I'm not crazy about the OBS' goldish underside 2 tone either. They should've stayed with the platinum slate on the 99 OBS.
Not everyone likes alloy 16" rims and guages. As someone said above, you need to make a niche market or else you will loose when you go head to head with the big guys.
It's kinda like warfare. You can't be the small guy and just go running into a field expecting to take out the opposing huge army. You need to stratigically place your people, and take pop shots very accurately. When you are a big guy you can go on a rampage in a field loose a few soldiers but win the battle.
-mike
Frank
http://home.earthlink.net/~gndiamant/subaru.htm
that the OBS will have a raised suspension, roof "cross" rails, and an ambiant temp gauge, and few other goodies.
Bob
Organized by price
Impreza TS - 17,495, compact
Impreza OBS - 18,695, compact
Impreza RS - 18,995, compact
Legacy L Sedan - 19,295, midsize
Legacy L WGN - 19,995, midsize
Forester L - 20,295, small SUV
Forester S - 22,895, small SUV
Legacy GT - 23,795, midsize
Outback - 22,885, midsize
Legacy GT SDN - 22,895, midsize
Legacy GT WGN - 23,795, midsize
Impreza WRX WGN - 23,495, compact
Impreza WRX SDN - 23,995, compact
Legacy GT Ltd - 24,395, midsize
Outback LTD SDN - 25,995, midsize
Outback LTD WGN - 26,295, midsize
Outback H6 LL-BEAN - 29,495, midsize
Outback H6 VDC - 31,885, midsize
I can *clearly* see several problems here.
1. price differentiation between 1 model and the next is nearly meaningless
2. same model differentiation by feature throughout the lineup is minor, and mostly consists of "luxury" upgrades, exception: H6 and WRX
3. market coverage by model is negligible, with the exception of the H6 Outbacks and WRX [which break new ground]. Otherwise they are compacts & midsizes.
4. market coverage by price is pretty slim, with the exception of the H6 models priced in the stratosphere.
5. here's the kicker: all of them have a 2.5 L engine, with the exception of the 2 H6 models and the 2 WRX models.
Mostly, what I see here is alot of overlap and lack of differentation. I see 3 classes of vehicles here. 2.5 L, 2.0 turbos, and H6s, the latter 2 being extremely oriented toward niche markets.
Model placement (by price) seems to be have some anamolies, but to Subaru's credit is mostly consistent. ie. Imprezas at the low end, Outbacks at the high end.
Anyway, the point of this exercise: take a look at the lineup for Honda or Toyota. And if you consider Subaru a niche automaker, than compare it to VW's lineup.