Based on the inventory du jour, even greater discounts are possible. My Audi dealer still has a few '04's and the discounts on some of them are well above $7000, this would translate in theory to $3500 off of a Passat.
Ask VWGUILD, he speaks from experience. But, you know, every time is not identical to previous iterations (new model years, new cars, etc.)
Funny thing, tho, if you are NOT paying cash, there may be some merit to considering a lease on the newest model -- that is if monthly payment is an issue.
On other hand, if you ARE paying cash -- not financing, a big discount may make sense.
Well, the VW dealer I went to told me that leasing a '04 passat right now could actually cost more in terms of monthly payment than a '05, so it seems for leasing the lowest price always comes with the newest model.
That was my point -- when leasing, the new car almost always has a lower payment that the new car that is last year's model.
We priced a new S4 -- 2004 and an identical one 2005, the discount on the 2004 did not make up for the residual loss factor as it relates to the mo pmt.
"Wow what a great deal I got on this leftover 2003 De-Lux-S.U.X. 6000, almost $9,000 off sticker." I've heard that refrain so many times -- yea, sure -- unfortunately the value of the car because it is now used and two model years old has plummeted like the Coyote falling off the cliff in the Roadrunner cartoons. While the utility of the vehicle may not be in question, it is possible that the "good deal" the buyer thinks he/she received is not such a good deal from a financial perspective.
So, yea, last year's cars will be discounted -- but that is because they are worth less, a whole bunch less.
This does not make them a bad from a usability standpoint -- it just means that the owner gets "upside down" a whole bunch quicker than pehaps he/she imagined. That is why I say the only way to "buy" a car is to pay cash or get virtually zero financing. I have no desire to attempt to build up equity in something that sheds equity faster than a snowman melts in the hot summer sun.
The "deal" therefore may not really be all that good. Lease the newer car and be done with it. It isn't a house -- its a "durable" good. Keep it for 3 years (maybe 3.5 years) and move on.
Speaking of lease, my effective monthly payment comes to about $370 including tax per month for a 60 month lease on a VW GLX 4Motion. (Tax is 5% in state where I live. Effective payment includes cash due at inception, lease end fees etc. converted to monthly payment). My total payments will come to about $22,000 for a vehicle that can be purchased for cash at that time for $30,500 (29,000 + 5% tax). If this was financed at 5% then total cost would come to $35,000.
Let's say car is worth $12,000 (42% residual) after five years.
So, cash buy total cost would be 30,500 – 12,000 = $18,500
If financed buy then 35,000 – 12,000 = $23,000
If leased then $22,000
If car is worth $15,000 (52% residual) after five years.
So, cash buy total cost would be 30,500 – 15,000 = $15,500
If financed buy then 35,000 – 15,000 = $20,000
If leased then $22,000
Leasing is okay, as long as car depreciates 60% or more. Leasing is poor if car depreciates 50% or less. In both case, cash buy is the best, unless your cash is invested in such a way that after tax return is over 5%. Remember banks always make money by leasing or financing cars. Depending on net asset and money management skill, one may be better off lending money to him/herself.
Notes and Assumptions:
1. Lease is almost always better option when it is a business expense.
2. The only thing more expensive then a car is a boat.
3. There are many pros and cons of keeping a car longer due to higher maintenance but a good reliable car would always cost less when owned for a long term.
4. I may not have got the lowest lease quote but I did negotiate hard at many dealers.
5. There is no such thing as free lunch nor there is 0% finance.
A VW Passat after 60 months with a cash value of 52% of MSRP?
I tried a couple of cars on the used car web site of national prominence. After 30 months, most cars were DOWN ~ 50% -- try again at 60 months and you will shudder.
Moreover, I believe there is a valid argument that the additional potential costs (after warranty) must be at least considered.
And, there WAS for a while 0% financing and a 1% fed overnight rate -- heck for a while Uncle Alan was worried about deflation!
Never say never.
And with no ill will or criticism intended, I personally would not want a 5 year old car. Three years and "it's over," as far as I'm concerned.
It's not marriage -- its transportation. Heck some marriages don't last 60 months!
I do agree that if you must buy you should buy in cash -- moreover, if you must buy and can find a 1 year old low low low milage car that is as they say a cream puff with lots of warranty, go for that one and keep it until the wheels fall off (after paying cash, of course.)
I live and work in the Chicago area as well and have a FWD Passat wagon. In the last big snow event, the standard traction control (VW calls it "ESR" - Electronic Slip Regulation) was good enough to get me around and out of most snow patches. I submit a FWD with ESR will suffice, Passat or Jetta. One thing I would heartily recommend is a wagon. God bless you in your ministry!
I recently purchased a 05 Passat GLS w/tiptronic. I drove a stick for quite a while, however my fiancee preferred an automatic, so thats what we bought :-(
Well....I seek advice on the tiptronic. How do I drive it since I don't have a clutch...
I'm about to buy a 2005 passat GLS 1.8T. There is a ticking sound coming from then engine when the engine is cold and goes away when engine is warmed up. Normal? or not?
If you are leasing you should be fine. I am worried about repair costs in the long run, but short term it should be covered under warranty.
The two worst cars I have ever owned were Camrys, including an '04 that I kept for only two months. They are overrated junk. If you decide to go with one, drive it for a long time to be sure. The ride was bumpy, there was a thunking noise in the rear that is "normal", and the dash started squeeking at 200 miles and got worse, plus other annoying problems. Check their board-I didn't have a lemon. I can't think of one thing I liked about the cars.
We have had several Accords. They are nice cars, but very bland. The styling isn't as nice as the Passat. The ride isn't as smooth as the Passat.
I find the reliability of Honda and Toyota to be worse than their reputation, and VW to be better. We have an '03 and '04 Passat, and no major problems so far.
I have never noticed any visibility problems, but both of ours are wagons.
One negative I have about the Passats is that for me I find the seats very uncomfortable. However, my wife has no complaints.
My 2004 Passat 1.8t also has the ticking sound when the engine is cold. I believe it is normal. I have 8200 miles and the Passat has been troublefree!!!!!
The ticking sound may be coming from the hydraulic valve lifters which use the engine oil to adjust the opening and closing of the valves. Once the engine warms up and the oil flows more freely through the lifters, the ticking sound usually goes away.
It shouldn't be a concern unless the ticking noise is still there after the engine warms up. If that is the case, it's just a matter of having that individual lifter replaced..
I have experienced problems with the locking mechanism on all 4 doors on my 97 GLX almost everytime the temperature drops below 10 degrees. The locks unlock, we open the door with the handle...then, the mechanism will not re-engage when trying to shut the door. Resulting in a very frustrating situation where there is NO way to close the door securely (ie can not drive, or leave alone because dome light would stay on unless tuen off dome light manually). Most importantly, this always happens on mornings when we are rushing to work and when this happens, we are stuck until the closing mechanism re-engages to allow the door to close. We have sprayed graphite, WD-40, and other lubricants to unfreeze and seems to work after waiting 10 - 30 min.
Has anyone had this problem? What is the fix, besides having to purchase 4 new VW part# 357837015G @ $63.65 each? To see the part I am referring to see the following link http://chris.quietlife.net/passat/doorfix
It is the top picture, the part beneath the black plactic housing. This is the locking mechanism of which I am referring.
I heard that WD40 isn't the best solution, it contains water and coutld contribute to some additional freezing...that is only what I heard. I am not a lube expert by anymeans. Sprayed graphite again last night, didn't work either...so, to the dealer I go to get the replacement part. Hope it's easy to replace.
In Feb. 2001, we bought a 2001.5 New Passat V6 GLX with the crappy 2 year warranty. It now has only 39,400 miles on it after almost 4 years. Our repair history:
1. oil sludge clogged pump and destroyed main bearing on crankshaft - replaced engine
2. rear brakes at 20,000 and again at 39,000
3. A/C compressor replaced
4. both trans axles replaced
5. front brakes and rotors replaced
6. battery replaced
7. glove box replaced 4 times (yes 4 times)
8. windshield washer fluid doesn't function
9. hood strut has failed
10. CD changer doesn't function
11. interior finish near shifter is peeling
12. ashtray doesn't open
13. power steering pump replaced
Thankfully the engine was repaired under the Powertrain warranty, but only after three weeks of negotiations and a threatened lawsuit (they wanted to charge me $12,500). Except a few items where VW split the repair cost (A/C and power steering), nothing was covered by the warranty (the first three glovebox repairs were covered, but the 4th they would only pay half).
I can't see myself ever buying another VW product and they don't seem to care one bit.
Well, that depends, is it a ticking noise like a Rolex, or a ticking noise like a timebomb? Mine is quiet at 78K mi. I use Mobil 1 here in Texas. It doesn't get real KOLD like in Minn or Mont. How long does the ticking go on? Does the engine need to be completely warmed or does it go away in a few seconds? You said "ticking" not "knocking", right? Could it be a belt? Is it "in" the engine? Does the sound only occur while idling, or does it continue while driving?
WD-40 sure doesn't contain water! It is a very light lubricant that displaces water. it can be used to lube light mechanisms, but doesn't stay put for long. It will get the water out of a distributor cap if it gets wet (try to find a car with a distributor cap).
When the check engine light is flashing, that normally indicates a misfire. You said the engine was shaking. I'm sure you have heard of the ignition coil problems these cars have had. Yours might be one of those cars.
My friend has a 2001 Passat with the 1.8 turbo engine. The oil pressure light came on and she brought it back to the dealer. Her lease is up this month, and she just wants to get out of this vehicle due to on-going problems.
1. They say they need her to authorize an engine diagnostic (at $75/hr x 4 hours) to find out what is wrong.
2. They say she exceeded one oil change interval by 1500 miles, essentially making any problem they find be outside of the warranty (and her expense).
3. They say it could be anything from a clogged oil pump to a totally sludged up engine that must be replaced (ouch).
4. The pressure reading in her car is 1.4 bars, while the normal pressure is 4.0 bars. Sounds like something is indeed clogged, but not sure what it could be.
Any advice is welcome and appreciated. Is there some fluid to run through the engine that could remove some gunk, drop the warning light and allow her to return the car without taking on great expense?
If, in fact, the engine has a sludge issue, it should be covered under VW extended engine warranty. Did your friend get a copy of the letter VW sent out explaining the sludge issue? Tell her to read the document VERY CAREFULLY on any verbiage about oil change intervals. Eventhough she went over 1500 miles once, that should not (in IMHO) void the warranty. Tell her to immediately contact VWoA and share her story. If her lease is up this month and she wants to get into another VW, then VW might be willing to work with her to get her into another Passat. if she chooses to just dump the car, then they might not be as interested in assisting her(eventhough though they should).
I read several Passat forums on the web - I've seen quite a few posts where the dealers are sticking to the letter of the warranty. This owner won't be the first (or last) to find that exceeding the recommended maintenance oil change interval can have dire consequences.
I don't know what the owner's manual said in 2001, but in the '03 manual, it says that the oil change interval is 5,000 miles. On another page, it suggests that the oil should be changed more frequently if driven under very hot conditions, very cold conditions, or if the vehicle is primarily driven in stop-and-go traffic. Personally, I believe that description covers just about everyone I know. I'm tightening up my own OCI's to around 4,000 miles.
I would really be complaining about that. You shouldn't have to pay anything....This is a bad start! Looks like they won't help you....even from the beginning! You need to do some more reading on the Web. Be creative and use your search engine with some good words. e.g. VW, Passat, "engine sludge", press release, extended warranty, happy customer, unhappy customer, oil sludge, etc.
Here are some additional thoughts on the engine sludge problem and ultimate responsibility.
Think about it for a minute and try to explain why a company would deliberately create a faulty engine and then sell it to the masses.”
They didn’t deliberately design and produce a faulty engine. (e.g. turbo that runs hot, wrong initial oil recommendations (“in print” in their new car manuals), and undersized pan?) Incidentally, if they had only done any 2 (of the 3) of these, we probably wouldn’t be talking here. Because of the failures they felt the pressure (from the tech’s, rep’s, dealerships, and “informed customers”) to “offer up” assistance to help offset the damages caused by this condition. Semi-goodwill?
You have to look at this entire issue in a “running change mode”. It is not uncommon for
an OEM auto manufacturer to correct problems on a “running basis” based on field feedback and customer pressure. “Tweaking” information is valuable. It is often passed from the tech’s, to sales, to management, to design, to production, and so on, throughout the organization. But what ever happened to testing? And approvals?
They didn’t inform the customer at the time of purchase of the correct maintenance procedure for their new vehicle. This wrong information was “in print” and in the customers hands (via the new car manual). To make things worse, some of the cars were delivered with “standard oil” which was later superceded by the recommendation to use “synthetic oil”. Looks to be a running change. Oil pans enlarged? Another running change? Want to bet the filter recommendation will also be changed to a larger one?
But, back to the OEM manufacturer. Every company expects to pay claims on product.
These claims (expenses for recalls, extended warranties, legal suits, etc.) are often “forecasted”. (or incorporated into a business plan) Let’s “say” 1.5% of gross sales is forecasted for claim issues and the number rises to 3.0% in a given year. Bonuses are often based on profitability and broken down by territory, by plant, by sales center’s, by regional territories, nationally, etc. (even chemists and new product development)
It is really pretty easy. The more profitable your group is, the more money (you as a manager or individual) will make! If you or “your group” deny a slew of marginal claims your “profit center” or "region" you might benefit more than others.
The dealerships are just "brokers".
Notice that the dealerships are gathering “facts” and submitting to VWOA for evaluation. I have to laugh. People write in “here” with hope! There is no hope! This is the real world! The dealership meets the definition of a “Broker”. It is a “pass through” if the claim is approved, they get to do the work! If not, they may lose a customer. Oh well.
A lot of this has to do with the wording of the 1.8t sludge recall.
See! You read through that and it looked OK! But it isn’t a recall. It is a warranty extension ..big difference! With a warranty extension you have to meet certain criteria in order to be compensated. Make the criteria tough to limit your expenses. (?) The press blurb doesn’t go into detail, just now are customers finding out how they are excluded!
The blurb makes everyone feel warm “all over”. Exclusions will be very creative! I can’t wait to see them all.
So you have people reviewing details of a claim that will affect their companies profitability picture. (Maybe their specific group and even maybe them personally)
I knew of a case where a Regional Sales Manager (Bonus driven) personally had to approve claims that exceeded $100.00. (He insisted) That was really “petty” because he had “high dollar” District Sales Managers working for him. And the District Sales Managers each had up to 30 men reporting to them!
“Sure, if this is a one shot deal it might work.”
This isn’t a one time deal. But close! These Sales Managers live quarter by quarter. The pressure to meet financial objectives is fierce! The turn-over rate (like any business) is fairly high. Those that meet objectives stay. Those that don’t move on. In good years (increased sales) the pressure is a little less than in poor years. (lagging sales) Those that have the best “numbers” are rewarded! Forget about fairness to the customer or repeat sales. The best don’t always stay with the company. It works in reverse, the poorest are often rewarded the most! VW has had several years of declining sales. Are things tight yet?
There use to be a 2, 3, or 5 year plan. Now you have just under a year “to turn things around!”
“But this is a repeated game. Seems to me you'd kill the company by perpetrating such a fraud. Why would the officers of the company want to destroy their source of income? It just doesn't make sense as a fraud.”
Short term they can perpetrate fraud without killing the company. But you are right, long term is a different story. Bad press is costly. These “3 minute managers” that decline a claim ..could eventually ruin a company. When you make a bad product, you have to expect larger claims. Over time this will hurt any business. But they don't really care, they have millions of dollars in sales!
(I purchased a Toyota (1993) T100 truck several years ago. I purchased it from the second owner. He showed me where Toyota had a problem (recall) and the first owner had the engine rebuilt N/C at 80k. To this day I have a good feeling about Toyota, and I am the 3rd owner of the darn truck! They helped the first owner. Whoever he was! That is good press! )
“Even if you are correct, it is still not fraud. You can call it stupidity, bad business, or faulty engineering, but not fraud.”
You have to look a little deeper. Does the individual(s) making the decision profit directly from performance paid bonuses? Do the individuals participate in a 401k in which company “matching funds are used”. Do the individual(s) own company stock?
Would it meet your definition of fraud if one could prove “direct personal or corporate” monetary gain? Wouldn't they naturally try to protect the company from financial harm thus "helping themselves".
Less compensation in claims for customers, means more money for the company and it’s employee’s! If I cheated you out of $100 for a bad “used” washing machine, it wouldn’t be fraud. It would be more like unfair or unethical, but it wouldn’t be wholesale “fraud”. There also wouldn’t be much recourse.
If a company sells thousands of vehicles and routinely denies responsibility for claims of this nature, in my estimation, it moves up several notches from unfair or unethical, into the realm of fraud. Reneging on the new car warranty! Maybe you have a different opinion. Hundreds of thousands of dollars is not petty theft.
cool oil=cool engine=happy engine
hot oil=overheated engine=engine seizing=moving vehicle? Engine fire?
I can't be the first person to think that these engines won't catch fire when they let loose! Let's hope no one gets hurt if this does happen!
Think of it this way. If they approve a claim, the repairs will cost about $4,000 in labor and the rest in parts. (A retail consumer will pay about $11,400 for the entire job) If they deny a claim, and the dealer gets to do the job, they get to sell the parts to the dealership and it comes back to them as increased revenue. It is close to a $18,000 swing and the dealership is quietly hoping to do the work or at least sell the parts to the independent shop that does!
Wonder what 12 of my peers would say? A old truck driver looking at thousands of people that have been shortchanged for a variety of reasons. That would be the acid test!
If litigation and class actions has been brought (on the Jetta) concerning the front bumper ($1,000), oxygen sensors($150), and window regulators ($120), there will certainly be litigation brought on this engine sludge problem with the Passat. ($11,400 engine replacement cost!) This may surprise you, but people will get mad and persue the issue!
In recent years, each state attorney general has added depth to their office in the way of the “Consumer Affairs Division”. That is where some of the finer “sifting” will be done. They deal with fraud all the time and they are very good “readers”. They will ultimately decide the merits of the case.
I worked with a a former District Sales Manager, (bonus driven and greedy), that was sentenced to 30 months in a federal prison. He misappropriated funds, but he was never accused of fraud! But he cheated everyone! The company, the customers, his rep’s., the dealers, the government, his lawyers, his family, his ex-wife, and himself.
What kind of oil is being put in new Passat's coming from the factory. My '04.5 came with regular oil, not synthetic. After hearing about the warranty extension, I called my local VW dealer and they were still recommending and using non-synthetic. What's up with that? Shouldn't the dealer have some liability for not following the manufacturers recommendations????
MOST buyers trust their dealer to use the proper lubricants when getting their car serviced.....
This might be the way it went all hypothetical mind you!
They made the car and gave it to you with the wrong oil in it. They started getting complaints about “turbo’s” overheating and engine pumps failing. Some customers didn’t do the proper maintenance schedule, but some did. Some engines were failing at 30k. So they backtracked to the dealers and told them to start using synthetic oil (which is more resistant to heat break down).
They did some additional internal testing and found that a larger pan would help cool the oil down. They were forced to do some “good press” so they issued a “warranty extension” with very strict exclusions to minimize costs.
What kind of oil is being put in new Passat's coming from the factory. My '04.5 came with regular oil, not synthetic.
How do you know that the factory oil was not synthetic? I read a number of VW forums and many have tried to determine exactly what oil was the factory fill. My manual says that it's 5w-40 - I haven't seen any 5w-40 oils that are not synth (in North America).
After hearing about the warranty extension, I called my local VW dealer and they were still recommending and using non-synthetic. What's up with that? Shouldn't the dealer have some liability for not following the manufacturers recommendations????
Hard to fathom why they are doing this. I'd call VWoA and mention this and ask why. If nothing else, the answer should be entertaining. Personally, I'd do one of two things - either I'd consider moving on to another dealer, or I'd bring my own 5w-40 VW Spec 502.00 compliant oil and watch that they actually used it.
MOST buyers trust their dealer to use the proper lubricants when getting their car serviced.....
And it's this type of thing that will continue to give VW a black eye here in North America.
They made the car and gave it to you with the wrong oil in it. They started getting complaints about “turbo’s” overheating and engine pumps failing. Some customers didn’t do the proper maintenance schedule, but some did. Some engines were failing at 30k. So they backtracked to the dealers and told them to start using synthetic oil (which is more resistant to heat break down).
It depends on what model year you have, but the manual that came with my '03 recommended 5w-40 oil. I did a bit of research prior to my first oil change and found that the only 5w-40 oils sold in North America were all synth. So, I guess you could argue that VW DID say to use synth oil, but without saying it in such few words. As a result, I brought my own oil and the dealer gladly used it (I know they used it, because I watched the tech pour it in).
IMO, the VW owner's manual is poorly written in a number of areas, and the oil recommendation section is right near the top. And that fact that many cars use 7,500 miles for their normal usage maintenance benchmark versus 5,000 for VW's 1.8T doesn't help. On another page in my manual, there's a note that under certain conditions, the oil should be changed more frequently (driving in hot weather, driving in cold weather, driving in dusty conditions, driving in stop-and-go traffic, driving mostly short trips). However, there is no recommendation for what mileage you should use for oil changes under these conditions.
I've tightened up my OCI to 4,000 miles, use synth, and the larger oil filter. I'm hopin' for the best.
It's still unclear to me how fish8 knows that the wrong oil was used at the factory. Inquiring minds wanna know...!
I guess I just assumed (yeah I know the saying) that since the dealer was still using/recommending non-synthetic oil that VW filled their new cars with regular oil. I would be totally SHOCKED if VW did use synthetic from the factory. At my 5K mile service I did bring my own Mobile 1 0w40 oil. I will continue to bring my own oil for each of my services.
I would be totally SHOCKED if VW did use synthetic from the factory.
I'm not so sure that I would be shocked. Like I said, my '03 manual says that the OEM fill is 5w-40. Whether this was true for other model years, I don't know.
I did a "Germany-only" Yahoo search and found that all of the oil websites that I visited showed their 5w-40 oil as "Vollsynthetisches," which Babelfish translates to mean "full synthetic."
Seems to me that this underscores the difference in quality between what is on the European oil market versus the US market.
It also illustrates the problem that VWAG has with the VWoA dealership service network.
My friend called the dealer back and told them DO NOT TOUCH MY CAR. I will not authorize a $300 diagnostic, nor will i pay for any repairs. She was planning to take it to another dealer or repair center, since she had lost all faith in this dealer. She was hoping to invest the same or less money in multiple oil changes and flushes to have the warning light go out.
Amazingly, the dealer called back and told her that after consulting with VWoA, they decided that they WOULD cover the diagnostic and repairs under warranty! Although she was not interested in another VW, she had negotiated on a Mazda from the same dealer.
The lesson is to be patient and insistent and be willing to take your business elsewhere. It also shows that the oil change intervals are not carved into stone (besides the manual calls them "recommended service intervals", so a one time lapse of 1500 miles should not void a warranty).
Thanks to all who posted help (fish8, altair4 & yupoldbull)
I am glad to hear that it ended up working out for your friend. What Mazda did she end up purchasing? Just curious. I have heard the Mazda 3's are great cars.
I have always found the participants here to very helpful. I've searched the discussion for any information about alternatives for upgrading to a better brake rotor. I have an '03 1.8 with only 12K and I'm already starting to feel some pulsing in the brakes. DOesn't seem like the front - more likely some warping in the rear. Good thing I like the car as much as I do or this would be very disconcerting. It's not enough to make me do anything immediately but I'd like to know if anyone has some reccomendations for a higher quality rotor. Thanks for your input.
I experience this annoying lag problem on my 2002 VW GLS Wagon with automatic transmission and 4Motion. Don't know what triggers the occurance but my response is just what you said. Compensate with more acceleration and then hang on for the eventual reaction. Is this called tip lag? Is there a correction or repair? Is the problem solved on newer models?
The tiptronic transmission is quite able to shift smoothly and be responsive. It is programmed to be this way in several applications: the Audi S6 and RS6 leap to mind.
Whether we call it DBW lag or Tip lag, the outcome is the same -- "hesitation."
I am not a transmission engineer by any stretch. However the manual transmission versions of Audis and VW's are also DBW and they do not have this lag.
The issue in my mind is SOFTWARE -- the hardware when so programmed is up to the task of responsding in real time if it is given the appropriate commands from the computer.
I will not argue and even if I did could not prove my point pertaining to DBW or Tip lag. My only substantiation is that the manual trans equipped versions of both Audis and VW's do not "hesitate" before "engaging" the command to "accelerate normally and progressively concomitant with the pressing of the accelerator pedal."
You say Potato (or, Dan [Quayle], Potatoe) and I say Potaato. They're both spuds.
I call it tip lag -- that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
There is a chip that is rumored to alleviate this sympton. You can find it by googling. It is around $500.
This is quite a common "complaint" for us North American Tip users but I have not come across a VWOA-sanctioned Tip reflash as suggested. The only solutions I know of are:
1. Get a manual tranny (unfeasible)
2. Install the aforementioned Tip-chip (by GIAC) @ ~$500. This will improve your Tip's response especially in Tip-mode
3. There is a "Sportsmode" modification which involves recoding the Tip with a VAG-COM. This reporgrams the transmission computer to use another program already in the Tip and will make the Tip respond a little faster on kickdown and hold the gear a little longer. if you are interested, you can message me for more info.
1. turn the key to the on position (not the start position)
2. press the accelerator to the floor (to the point just beyond "resistance") and hold it for 2 seconds or so
3. release the pedal
4. start the car.
This is the equivalent of "alt-ctrl-delete" on a PC, in effect the car's engine management computer is rebooted.
The car is NOT programmed to lag from the get go -- this lag is a learned behavior. The transmission is NOT broken, not even programmed wrong (there is not bug per se). The lag comes in as the programming attempts to figure out how to upshift in D mode as quickly as possible and "hesitate" (to see if you really meant it) to downshift. These programming traits have been deliberately put into the tiptronic's brain in an attempt to keep the car at lower RPM's to improve fuel economy.
This "trick" simply wipes out some of the bad habits, perhaps you will allow me to use that word when dealing with the transmission, the car has learned from the driver. The shifting will be less "draconian" if you can teach yourself to "reset" every time you get behind the wheel.
I bought a brand new 2004 Passat GLS 1.8L Turbo from my dealership a month ago on a great deal ($17,995). This being my first experience with VW and the fact that I DO NOT trust the dealers, I am still not sure if he was telling me the truth on why my Passat looked a little different from the other 2004s. After all, he told me the VW comes with Michelin tires and after I went home, I realize mine has General Tires.
Form the superficial glance I recall that the other ones had side turn signals mounted on the front quarter panel, while mine is mounted around the edge of my rear view mirror. I don't remember anything else specific. But on the road, I just have not seen any other Passats that looked like mine. I looked on the door and the vehicle was assembled in Germany during April 2004. I actually like my design better, but it just irks me that the dealer did not offer me an explanation. Does anyone know why VW made that change last year? Was there something wrong with the earlier (my) version of the Passat? Thanks!
VW is always making slight changes and adjustments. It is an attempt to keep the car fresh and to add features that will help it to sell. My guess is that the mirror mounted turn signals were planned for '05, and they started to add them to the '04 once the previous supply was exhausted. I have an '05 that was built in June, so it was simply a shift in the assembly line that occurred at some point. They stopped punching holes in the quarter panels and putting the turn signals there, and started to put them in the new style mirrors.
As for the tires, it could be a matter of where the car was originally destined to arrive. I have the Michelins in the Northeast, and they may be better in our snow? I had a Jetta with Goodyear LS tires that were bald at 30K. The dealer told me that is was too bad I didn't get one with the Michelins as thay lasted much longer. Why I didn't get them is unknown.
Congrats on a great deal, and never trust the dealer!
Comments
Ask VWGUILD, he speaks from experience. But, you know, every time is not identical to previous iterations (new model years, new cars, etc.)
Funny thing, tho, if you are NOT paying cash, there may be some merit to considering a lease on the newest model -- that is if monthly payment is an issue.
On other hand, if you ARE paying cash -- not financing, a big discount may make sense.
Krzys
We priced a new S4 -- 2004 and an identical one 2005, the discount on the 2004 did not make up for the residual loss factor as it relates to the mo pmt.
"Wow what a great deal I got on this leftover 2003 De-Lux-S.U.X. 6000, almost $9,000 off sticker." I've heard that refrain so many times -- yea, sure -- unfortunately the value of the car because it is now used and two model years old has plummeted like the Coyote falling off the cliff in the Roadrunner cartoons. While the utility of the vehicle may not be in question, it is possible that the "good deal" the buyer thinks he/she received is not such a good deal from a financial perspective.
So, yea, last year's cars will be discounted -- but that is because they are worth less, a whole bunch less.
This does not make them a bad from a usability standpoint -- it just means that the owner gets "upside down" a whole bunch quicker than pehaps he/she imagined. That is why I say the only way to "buy" a car is to pay cash or get virtually zero financing. I have no desire to attempt to build up equity in something that sheds equity faster than a snowman melts in the hot summer sun.
The "deal" therefore may not really be all that good. Lease the newer car and be done with it. It isn't a house -- its a "durable" good. Keep it for 3 years (maybe 3.5 years) and move on.
Let's say car is worth $12,000 (42% residual) after five years.
So, cash buy total cost would be 30,500 – 12,000 = $18,500
If financed buy then 35,000 – 12,000 = $23,000
If leased then $22,000
If car is worth $15,000 (52% residual) after five years.
So, cash buy total cost would be 30,500 – 15,000 = $15,500
If financed buy then 35,000 – 15,000 = $20,000
If leased then $22,000
Leasing is okay, as long as car depreciates 60% or more. Leasing is poor if car depreciates 50% or less. In both case, cash buy is the best, unless your cash is invested in such a way that after tax return is over 5%. Remember banks always make money by leasing or financing cars. Depending on net asset and money management skill, one may be better off lending money to him/herself.
Notes and Assumptions:
1. Lease is almost always better option when it is a business expense.
2. The only thing more expensive then a car is a boat.
3. There are many pros and cons of keeping a car longer due to higher maintenance but a good reliable car would always cost less when owned for a long term.
4. I may not have got the lowest lease quote but I did negotiate hard at many dealers.
5. There is no such thing as free lunch nor there is 0% finance.
etc. etc. etc.
I tried a couple of cars on the used car web site of national prominence. After 30 months, most cars were DOWN ~ 50% -- try again at 60 months and you will shudder.
Moreover, I believe there is a valid argument that the additional potential costs (after warranty) must be at least considered.
And, there WAS for a while 0% financing and a 1% fed overnight rate -- heck for a while Uncle Alan was worried about deflation!
Never say never.
And with no ill will or criticism intended, I personally would not want a 5 year old car. Three years and "it's over," as far as I'm concerned.
It's not marriage -- its transportation. Heck some marriages don't last 60 months!
I do agree that if you must buy you should buy in cash -- moreover, if you must buy and can find a 1 year old low low low milage car that is as they say a cream puff with lots of warranty, go for that one and keep it until the wheels fall off (after paying cash, of course.)
Well....I seek advice on the tiptronic. How do I drive it since I don't have a clutch...
The two worst cars I have ever owned were Camrys, including an '04 that I kept for only two months. They are overrated junk. If you decide to go with one, drive it for a long time to be sure. The ride was bumpy, there was a thunking noise in the rear that is "normal", and the dash started squeeking at 200 miles and got worse, plus other annoying problems. Check their board-I didn't have a lemon. I can't think of one thing I liked about the cars.
We have had several Accords. They are nice cars, but very bland. The styling isn't as nice as the Passat. The ride isn't as smooth as the Passat.
I find the reliability of Honda and Toyota to be worse than their reputation, and VW to be better. We have an '03 and '04 Passat, and no major problems so far.
I have never noticed any visibility problems, but both of ours are wagons.
One negative I have about the Passats is that for me I find the seats very uncomfortable. However, my wife has no complaints.
It shouldn't be a concern unless the ticking noise is still there after the engine warms up. If that is the case, it's just a matter of having that individual lifter replaced..
Has anyone had this problem? What is the fix, besides having to purchase 4 new VW part# 357837015G @ $63.65 each? To see the part I am referring to see the following link http://chris.quietlife.net/passat/doorfix
It is the top picture, the part beneath the black plactic housing. This is the locking mechanism of which I am referring.
Krzys
In Feb. 2001, we bought a 2001.5 New Passat V6 GLX with the crappy 2 year warranty. It now has only 39,400 miles on it after almost 4 years. Our repair history:
1. oil sludge clogged pump and destroyed main bearing on crankshaft - replaced engine
2. rear brakes at 20,000 and again at 39,000
3. A/C compressor replaced
4. both trans axles replaced
5. front brakes and rotors replaced
6. battery replaced
7. glove box replaced 4 times (yes 4 times)
8. windshield washer fluid doesn't function
9. hood strut has failed
10. CD changer doesn't function
11. interior finish near shifter is peeling
12. ashtray doesn't open
13. power steering pump replaced
Thankfully the engine was repaired under the Powertrain warranty, but only after three weeks of negotiations and a threatened lawsuit (they wanted to charge me $12,500). Except a few items where VW split the repair cost (A/C and power steering), nothing was covered by the warranty (the first three glovebox repairs were covered, but the 4th they would only pay half).
I can't see myself ever buying another VW product and they don't seem to care one bit.
1. They say they need her to authorize an engine diagnostic (at $75/hr x 4 hours) to find out what is wrong.
2. They say she exceeded one oil change interval by 1500 miles, essentially making any problem they find be outside of the warranty (and her expense).
3. They say it could be anything from a clogged oil pump to a totally sludged up engine that must be replaced (ouch).
4. The pressure reading in her car is 1.4 bars, while the normal pressure is 4.0 bars. Sounds like something is indeed clogged, but not sure what it could be.
Any advice is welcome and appreciated. Is there some fluid to run through the engine that could remove some gunk, drop the warning light and allow her to return the car without taking on great expense?
Was she using regular oil or Synthetic?
Good luck!!!!!
I read several Passat forums on the web - I've seen quite a few posts where the dealers are sticking to the letter of the warranty. This owner won't be the first (or last) to find that exceeding the recommended maintenance oil change interval can have dire consequences.
I don't know what the owner's manual said in 2001, but in the '03 manual, it says that the oil change interval is 5,000 miles. On another page, it suggests that the oil should be changed more frequently if driven under very hot conditions, very cold conditions, or if the vehicle is primarily driven in stop-and-go traffic. Personally, I believe that description covers just about everyone I know. I'm tightening up my own OCI's to around 4,000 miles.
Here are some additional thoughts on the engine sludge problem and ultimate responsibility.
Think about it for a minute and try to explain why a company would deliberately create a faulty engine and then sell it to the masses.”
They didn’t deliberately design and produce a faulty engine. (e.g. turbo that runs hot, wrong initial oil recommendations (“in print” in their new car manuals), and undersized pan?) Incidentally, if they had only done any 2 (of the 3) of these, we probably wouldn’t be talking here. Because of the failures they felt the pressure (from the tech’s, rep’s, dealerships, and “informed customers”) to “offer up” assistance to help offset the damages caused by this condition. Semi-goodwill?
You have to look at this entire issue in a “running change mode”. It is not uncommon for
an OEM auto manufacturer to correct problems on a “running basis” based on field feedback and customer pressure. “Tweaking” information is valuable. It is often passed from the tech’s, to sales, to management, to design, to production, and so on, throughout the organization. But what ever happened to testing? And approvals?
They didn’t inform the customer at the time of purchase of the correct maintenance procedure for their new vehicle. This wrong information was “in print” and in the customers hands (via the new car manual). To make things worse, some of the cars were delivered with “standard oil” which was later superceded by the recommendation to use “synthetic oil”. Looks to be a running change. Oil pans enlarged? Another running change? Want to bet the filter recommendation will also be changed to a larger one?
But, back to the OEM manufacturer. Every company expects to pay claims on product.
These claims (expenses for recalls, extended warranties, legal suits, etc.) are often “forecasted”. (or incorporated into a business plan) Let’s “say” 1.5% of gross sales is forecasted for claim issues and the number rises to 3.0% in a given year. Bonuses are often based on profitability and broken down by territory, by plant, by sales center’s, by regional territories, nationally, etc. (even chemists and new product development)
It is really pretty easy. The more profitable your group is, the more money (you as a manager or individual) will make! If you or “your group” deny a slew of marginal claims your “profit center” or "region" you might benefit more than others.
The dealerships are just "brokers".
Notice that the dealerships are gathering “facts” and submitting to VWOA for evaluation. I have to laugh. People write in “here” with hope! There is no hope! This is the real world! The dealership meets the definition of a “Broker”. It is a “pass through” if the claim is approved, they get to do the work! If not, they may lose a customer. Oh well.
Please reference this press release.
http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0408/31/autos-259707.htm
A lot of this has to do with the wording of the 1.8t sludge recall.
See! You read through that and it looked OK! But it isn’t a recall. It is a warranty extension ..big difference! With a warranty extension you have to meet certain criteria in order to be compensated. Make the criteria tough to limit your expenses. (?) The press blurb doesn’t go into detail, just now are customers finding out how they are excluded!
The blurb makes everyone feel warm “all over”. Exclusions will be very creative! I can’t wait to see them all.
So you have people reviewing details of a claim that will affect their companies profitability picture. (Maybe their specific group and even maybe them personally)
I knew of a case where a Regional Sales Manager (Bonus driven) personally had to approve claims that exceeded $100.00. (He insisted) That was really “petty” because he had “high dollar” District Sales Managers working for him. And the District Sales Managers each had up to 30 men reporting to them!
“Sure, if this is a one shot deal it might work.”
This isn’t a one time deal. But close! These Sales Managers live quarter by quarter. The pressure to meet financial objectives is fierce! The turn-over rate (like any business) is fairly high. Those that meet objectives stay. Those that don’t move on. In good years (increased sales) the pressure is a little less than in poor years. (lagging sales) Those that have the best “numbers” are rewarded! Forget about fairness to the customer or repeat sales. The best don’t always stay with the company. It works in reverse, the poorest are often rewarded the most! VW has had several years of declining sales. Are things tight yet?
There use to be a 2, 3, or 5 year plan. Now you have just under a year “to turn things around!”
“But this is a repeated game. Seems to me you'd kill the company by perpetrating such a fraud. Why would the officers of the company want to destroy their source of income? It just doesn't make sense as a fraud.”
Short term they can perpetrate fraud without killing the company. But you are right, long term is a different story. Bad press is costly. These “3 minute managers” that decline a claim ..could eventually ruin a company. When you make a bad product, you have to expect larger claims. Over time this will hurt any business. But they don't really care, they have millions of dollars in sales!
(I purchased a Toyota (1993) T100 truck several years ago. I purchased it from the second owner. He showed me where Toyota had a problem (recall) and the first owner had the engine rebuilt N/C at 80k. To this day I have a good feeling about Toyota, and I am the 3rd owner of the darn truck! They helped the first owner. Whoever he was! That is good press! )
You have to look a little deeper. Does the individual(s) making the decision profit directly from performance paid bonuses? Do the individuals participate in a 401k in which company “matching funds are used”. Do the individual(s) own company stock?
Would it meet your definition of fraud if one could prove “direct personal or corporate” monetary gain? Wouldn't they naturally try to protect the company from financial harm thus "helping themselves".
Less compensation in claims for customers, means more money for the company and it’s employee’s! If I cheated you out of $100 for a bad “used” washing machine, it wouldn’t be fraud. It would be more like unfair or unethical, but it wouldn’t be wholesale “fraud”. There also wouldn’t be much recourse.
If a company sells thousands of vehicles and routinely denies responsibility for claims of this nature, in my estimation, it moves up several notches from unfair or unethical, into the realm of fraud. Reneging on the new car warranty! Maybe you have a different opinion. Hundreds of thousands of dollars is not petty theft.
cool oil=cool engine=happy engine
hot oil=overheated engine=engine seizing=moving vehicle? Engine fire?
I can't be the first person to think that these engines won't catch fire when they let loose! Let's hope no one gets hurt if this does happen!
Think of it this way. If they approve a claim, the repairs will cost about $4,000 in labor and the rest in parts. (A retail consumer will pay about $11,400 for the entire job) If they deny a claim, and the dealer gets to do the job, they get to sell the parts to the dealership and it comes back to them as increased revenue. It is close to a $18,000 swing and the dealership is quietly hoping to do the work or at least sell the parts to the independent shop that does!
Wonder what 12 of my peers would say? A old truck driver looking at thousands of people that have been shortchanged for a variety of reasons. That would be the acid test!
If litigation and class actions has been brought (on the Jetta) concerning the front bumper ($1,000), oxygen sensors($150), and window regulators ($120), there will certainly be litigation brought on this engine sludge problem with the Passat. ($11,400 engine replacement cost!) This may surprise you, but people will get mad and persue the issue!
In recent years, each state attorney general has added depth to their office in the way of the “Consumer Affairs Division”. That is where some of the finer “sifting” will be done. They deal with fraud all the time and they are very good “readers”. They will ultimately decide the merits of the case.
I worked with a a former District Sales Manager, (bonus driven and greedy), that was sentenced to 30 months in a federal prison. He misappropriated funds, but he was never accused of fraud! But he cheated everyone! The company, the customers, his rep’s., the dealers, the government, his lawyers, his family, his ex-wife, and himself.
MOST buyers trust their dealer to use the proper lubricants when getting their car serviced.....
This might be the way it went all hypothetical mind you!
They made the car and gave it to you with the wrong oil in it. They started getting complaints about “turbo’s” overheating and engine pumps failing. Some customers didn’t do the proper maintenance schedule, but some did. Some engines were failing at 30k. So they backtracked to the dealers and told them to start using synthetic oil (which is more resistant to heat break down).
They did some additional internal testing and found that a larger pan would help cool the oil down. They were forced to do some “good press” so they issued a “warranty extension” with very strict exclusions to minimize costs.
I am beginning to see a pattern.
Pending litigation MAF sensor warranty extension
Pending litigation window regulator warranty extension
Pending litigation oxygen sensor warranty extension
How do you know that the factory oil was not synthetic? I read a number of VW forums and many have tried to determine exactly what oil was the factory fill. My manual says that it's 5w-40 - I haven't seen any 5w-40 oils that are not synth (in North America).
After hearing about the warranty extension, I called my local VW dealer and they were still recommending and using non-synthetic. What's up with that? Shouldn't the dealer have some liability for not following the manufacturers recommendations????
Hard to fathom why they are doing this. I'd call VWoA and mention this and ask why. If nothing else, the answer should be entertaining. Personally, I'd do one of two things - either I'd consider moving on to another dealer, or I'd bring my own 5w-40 VW Spec 502.00 compliant oil and watch that they actually used it.
MOST buyers trust their dealer to use the proper lubricants when getting their car serviced.....
And it's this type of thing that will continue to give VW a black eye here in North America.
It depends on what model year you have, but the manual that came with my '03 recommended 5w-40 oil. I did a bit of research prior to my first oil change and found that the only 5w-40 oils sold in North America were all synth. So, I guess you could argue that VW DID say to use synth oil, but without saying it in such few words. As a result, I brought my own oil and the dealer gladly used it (I know they used it, because I watched the tech pour it in).
IMO, the VW owner's manual is poorly written in a number of areas, and the oil recommendation section is right near the top. And that fact that many cars use 7,500 miles for their normal usage maintenance benchmark versus 5,000 for VW's 1.8T doesn't help. On another page in my manual, there's a note that under certain conditions, the oil should be changed more frequently (driving in hot weather, driving in cold weather, driving in dusty conditions, driving in stop-and-go traffic, driving mostly short trips). However, there is no recommendation for what mileage you should use for oil changes under these conditions.
I've tightened up my OCI to 4,000 miles, use synth, and the larger oil filter. I'm hopin' for the best.
It's still unclear to me how fish8 knows that the wrong oil was used at the factory. Inquiring minds wanna know...!
I'm not so sure that I would be shocked. Like I said, my '03 manual says that the OEM fill is 5w-40. Whether this was true for other model years, I don't know.
I did a "Germany-only" Yahoo search and found that all of the oil websites that I visited showed their 5w-40 oil as "Vollsynthetisches," which Babelfish translates to mean "full synthetic."
Seems to me that this underscores the difference in quality between what is on the European oil market versus the US market.
It also illustrates the problem that VWAG has with the VWoA dealership service network.
Source on synthetic lubes. (including history!)
http://www.synlube.com/synthetic.htm
My friend called the dealer back and told them DO NOT TOUCH MY CAR. I will not authorize a $300 diagnostic, nor will i pay for any repairs. She was planning to take it to another dealer or repair center, since she had lost all faith in this dealer. She was hoping to invest the same or less money in multiple oil changes and flushes to have the warning light go out.
Amazingly, the dealer called back and told her that after consulting with VWoA, they decided that they WOULD cover the diagnostic and repairs under warranty! Although she was not interested in another VW, she had negotiated on a Mazda from the same dealer.
The lesson is to be patient and insistent and be willing to take your business elsewhere. It also shows that the oil change intervals are not carved into stone (besides the manual calls them "recommended service intervals", so a one time lapse of 1500 miles should not void a warranty).
Thanks to all who posted help (fish8, altair4 & yupoldbull)
Whether we call it DBW lag or Tip lag, the outcome is the same -- "hesitation."
I am not a transmission engineer by any stretch. However the manual transmission versions of Audis and VW's are also DBW and they do not have this lag.
The issue in my mind is SOFTWARE -- the hardware when so programmed is up to the task of responsding in real time if it is given the appropriate commands from the computer.
I will not argue and even if I did could not prove my point pertaining to DBW or Tip lag. My only substantiation is that the manual trans equipped versions of both Audis and VW's do not "hesitate" before "engaging" the command to "accelerate normally and progressively concomitant with the pressing of the accelerator pedal."
You say Potato (or, Dan [Quayle], Potatoe) and I say Potaato. They're both spuds.
I call it tip lag -- that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
There is a chip that is rumored to alleviate this sympton. You can find it by googling. It is around $500.
1. Get a manual tranny (unfeasible)
2. Install the aforementioned Tip-chip (by GIAC) @ ~$500. This will improve your Tip's response especially in Tip-mode
3. There is a "Sportsmode" modification which involves recoding the Tip with a VAG-COM. This reporgrams the transmission computer to use another program already in the Tip and will make the Tip respond a little faster on kickdown and hold the gear a little longer. if you are interested, you can message me for more info.
Food for thought ...
EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU GET BEHIND THE WHEEL:
1. turn the key to the on position (not the start position)
2. press the accelerator to the floor (to the point just beyond "resistance") and hold it for 2 seconds or so
3. release the pedal
4. start the car.
This is the equivalent of "alt-ctrl-delete" on a PC, in effect the car's engine management computer is rebooted.
The car is NOT programmed to lag from the get go -- this lag is a learned behavior. The transmission is NOT broken, not even programmed wrong (there is not bug per se). The lag comes in as the programming attempts to figure out how to upshift in D mode as quickly as possible and "hesitate" (to see if you really meant it) to downshift. These programming traits have been deliberately put into the tiptronic's brain in an attempt to keep the car at lower RPM's to improve fuel economy.
This "trick" simply wipes out some of the bad habits, perhaps you will allow me to use that word when dealing with the transmission, the car has learned from the driver. The shifting will be less "draconian" if you can teach yourself to "reset" every time you get behind the wheel.
Otherwise, just get a manual from now on.
Of course you can blow a shift. ; ^ )
I bought a brand new 2004 Passat GLS 1.8L Turbo from my dealership a month ago on a great deal ($17,995). This being my first experience with VW and the fact that I DO NOT trust the dealers, I am still not sure if he was telling me the truth on why my Passat looked a little different from the other 2004s. After all, he told me the VW comes with Michelin tires and after I went home, I realize mine has General Tires.
Form the superficial glance I recall that the other ones had side turn signals mounted on the front quarter panel, while mine is mounted around the edge of my rear view mirror. I don't remember anything else specific. But on the road, I just have not seen any other Passats that looked like mine. I looked on the door and the vehicle was assembled in Germany during April 2004. I actually like my design better, but it just irks me that the dealer did not offer me an explanation. Does anyone know why VW made that change last year? Was there something wrong with the earlier (my) version of the Passat? Thanks!
As for the tires, it could be a matter of where the car was originally destined to arrive. I have the Michelins in the Northeast, and they may be better in our snow? I had a Jetta with Goodyear LS tires that were bald at 30K. The dealer told me that is was too bad I didn't get one with the Michelins as thay lasted much longer. Why I didn't get them is unknown.
Congrats on a great deal, and never trust the dealer!