CR-V vs Escape

scape2 · July 2003

You forget to add what your vehicle comes with in each trim level. Accessories cost $$ money it comes to the CRV EX. In the past I have posted prices for both the CRV and the Escape directly from the paper. I even offered VIN#'s and dealership names. In my region CRV's cost more, discounts or no discounts. Once again I will post these advertised prices this weekend. Another thing is Honda dealerships will advertise 1 or 2 only at this price. While Ford dealerships will offer more colors choices to the consumer. "Both paid the same price"?? what? I understand your logic of incentives and how they drag my resale value down. But, you don't seem to understand that now, a person shopping the CRV and the Escape will get more for the hard earned money. I had once shown an Escape limited could be had for $23,888. Look up what you get on the limited. The CRV EX doesn't even offer many of the accessories the Escape does. The same dealership was selling CRV-EX for $23,499. For a mere $300 you get a whole lot more.
The other side to my Escape purchase is I received .9% financing for 3 years from Ford. I saved thousands over a the regular Honda owner at the time. Now, in my region Honda dealerships are offering low financing, as low as 2.9%..

varmint · July 2003

Scape2 - What can I say? You must live in area that really loves their Hondas.

1. You are looking at ads in the paper. Before testing the RDV, I checked the papers. The dealership listed it at $2K higher than the salesperson's first offer. Ad prices are not selling prices.

2. MSRP + Destination comes to $22,860. Your price for a CR-V is about a grand higher. TMV in my area is $21,556 for an automatic EX. I could buy one here, drive it to your neighborhood, and make a profit reselling it.

3. Those dealers are only selling one or two models in specific colors because that unit has been loaded with dealer-installed accessories. Which would also explain the high prices you are posting.

4. TMV for an Escape XLT in my area is $23,654 minus incentives (about $500). That vehicle does include a few things not included on the CR-V EX, like power seats, 16" rims, and a roof rack. However, it is also missing a sunroof, stereo and speaker upgrades, side airbags, a headrest and shoulder belt for the center rear seat, and a full-size matching alloy spare tire. (Do you want to count the picnic table and sliding rear seats?)

Granted, I think anyone with half a brain can do better than the TMV Edmunds has posted, but I doubt very much they are going to get lower than the CR-V unless they use employee discounts or a Ford loyalty program.

varmint · July 2003

Here's an article with more on the rebates and resale discussion.

http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-hy-wheel- s30jul30,0,2233146.story?coll=la-class-autos-highway1

scape2 · August 2003

I'll pipe up here... Anyone hear about the recall notice on all 2002 and 2003 CRV's??? Trasmission corrosion and lock-up?? I thought all Honda's were perfect right from the start?
I now have over 30,000 trouble free miles on my Ford Escape XLT v6 AWD. Purrs like a kitten, reliable as can be.. Still waiting for all those problems, massive failures and the like to pop up...

valuch · August 2003

For those of you who have no problems with your Ford escape - you are very lucky. I was driving on 7/30 doing 40 mph down an incline and my Escape stalled. I had no pwer steering and the breaks needed to be pumped. I was lucky no one was in front of me at the time. Because I have 45,000 miles on it - my warrenty did not cover it and I got stuck paying $380. It has been in the shop 2 times before and I have only owned it for a year.
Hopefully Ford will wake up and have a recall before someone dies.

I will be getting rid of my first and last Ford.

bess · August 2003

Varmit,
Now your just making up numbers and forumla's at a whim.

You state:
"Your resale value is the current purchase price minus depreciation. "

Resale value can be affected by 'current' purchase price, but not in the linear fashion that you suggest. Depreciation is not a set number, in fact how much a vehichle depreciated is a function of its resale value.

If you buy both vehichles at 21k, and they they both sell for 19K then each depreciated 2k.

If you buy a Ford at 20K and sell it for 18K, it depreciated 2K. If you buy a Honda at 21K and sell it for 19K, it also had the same 2K depreciation. It IS that simple.

Icvi now claims that "Up until recently a comparably equipped Escape cost more than a CR-V "

You and the other Honda folks here have been saying for several years now that the only reason Escape sales are so high is because of the price of the Escape is driven even lower than its MSRP(via discounts/rebates). Now you claim its only a 'recent' event.

icvci · August 2003

You and the other Honda folks here have been saying for several years now..."

I haven't even been here for one year let alone several.

"...the only reason Escape sales are so high is because of the price of the Escape is driven even lower than its MSRP(via discounts/rebates). Now you claim its only a 'recent' event.

Incentives on the Escape were just recently added for the general public. I brought up incentives to refute the argument that sales are an reliable indicator of a better vehicle. Sales are effected by employee, supplier and fleet sales.

varmint · August 2003

Bess - Yes, I did simplify things a bit, but that was for the sake of discussion. I think it was pretty clear that the numbers I used were pulled out of the air.

As for the point of that post, look at the link I provided above. Edmund's Prez spells it out.

"If a manufacturer puts a $2,000 rebate on a new car, you get a $1,700 drop on the same model in the used market," said Jeremy Anwyl, president of Edmunds.com, an automotive information and valuation service based in Santa Monica. "The effect is almost immediate."

In short, if Ford gives a rebate to new car buyers. You have to pass it on to the used car buyer who is looking at yours.

scape2 · August 2003

What? no comment on the huge recall of 02 and 03 CRV's?? especially from varmit or icvi??? Thats ok, I'm making sure it makes its way around the internet.

varmit, we understand your logic about how rebates hurt resale. But, If a person can buy an Escape/Tribute with more options for, lets say 1,500 less than a CRV. AND get better financing than Honda offers. They can save thousands over the life of a car loan.
Also, resale only really matter for those who trade vehicles within the first 3 years or so of owning a new car. Besides, don't get me started on Honda resale.
Once again took my wifes 2000 LX to a new Honda dealership to see what they would give me for a trade... $10,000 tops!!!! resale.. don't think so... I know they would try to turn this car around and sell if for 14K - 15K....

icvci · August 2003

What? no comment on the huge recall of 02 and 03 CRV's?? especially from varmit or icvi??? Thats ok, I'm making sure it makes its way around the internet.

I care? It's in the papers and on the news. I know you like to fancy yourself the Geraldo of Honda reliabilty. And, just like Geraldo and the infamous Al Capone vault, you're finding nothing but what already has been found.

Besides why would we comment on an Escape/CR-V board?

icvci · August 2003

But, If a person can buy an Escape/Tribute with more options for, lets say 1,500 less than a CRV. AND get better financing than Honda offers. They can save thousands over the life of a car loan.

I'm sorry does any of that apply to you? Seems to me you bought BEFORE the rebates and financing offers kicked in. So, your resale is poop.

Also, resale only really matter for those who trade vehicles within the first 3 years or so of owning a new car.

According to whom? Honda's generally hold much more value whenever you sell them.

Once again took my wifes 2000 LX to a new Honda dealership to see what they would give me for a trade... $10,000 tops!!!! resale.. don't think so... I know they would try to turn this car around and sell if for 14K - 15K....

Uhhh yeah? Your point is? A dealer trying to make money? Say it isn't so! If you sold it yourself the money goes in your pocket. Get it? You pay for the convenience of dropping it off and not having to sell it out right.

varmint · August 2003

"Also, resale only really matter for those who trade vehicles within the first 3 years or so of owning a new car."

Wrong. It matters when people people have another baby and suddenly find they need to trade in for a minivan. It happens when your company promotes you to a position in that new office in Fresno. It happens when people divorce and have to split their assets. It happens when you get smacked by a pick-up truck and find that you now owe far more than the vehicle is worth (upside-down on the loan).

Ford raised incentives again this July. They now average $3,687 per vehicle. Honda is still the lowest of the major manufacturers with only $805 per vehcile.

icvci · August 2003

Those incentives include lease deals.

varmint · August 2003

Scape2 - Looking for your resale value? Try way down here...

http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/030805/autos_ford_incentives_1.html

odie6l · August 2003

Ok, my Check Fuel Cap light is now glowing nicely. Lucky for me I'm going tomorrow for my 35k service. Service rep told me it is probably nothing but the Service Reminder Light. I really wish the car makers would NOT put a service reminder light as something it's not. That would be like an idiot light for Check Washer Fluid when your getting Low Fuel. To quote Bill Engvall - "Here's your Sign!"

Odie

scape2 · August 2003

a reaction and some comments...
But you forget varmit.. my Escape is going to be paid for in 1.5 years.. while a typical Honda owner pays 5-8% in interest for 5 years!! So, my Escape will be worth more than the unpaid for 2001 CRV...
icvi.. I thought all Honda dealers were fantastic? can do no wrong... just like Honda vehicles... I know he was trying to steal my LX Accord...."Geraldo Rivera of Honda"??? Thats good.. lol! I just like to pop the bubbles of folks like yourself that think Honda Motor Company can do no wrong and any vehicle they make is perfect.. Sure do love the crashtest results of the Element... I thought the CRV was perfect icvi?? Honda can't have a rusty cable?? what is up with that??

icvci · August 2003

I never said Honda or it's dealers are infallible. Actually, find a post where I had anything positive to say about Honda dealers collectively and I'll buy a Ford.

I like Honda vehicles more than Ford vehicles. I really like the fact that the odds are with me in a Honda. Better odds to not break down. Better odds for resale. Better odds in a crash. Better odds for squeaks and rattles.

Odds are, your jingoish behavior turns more people off of the Escape than on to it. You can easily be discounted as the guy who has nothing but blind patriotism to back up his words.

I've owned the perfect Honda. 1990 CRX Si.

odie6l · August 2003

My Check Fuel Cap light was on because of a Carbon Filter in the exhaust system was clogged. Go figure. Anyway all is good now.

Odie

baggs32 · August 2003

varmint,
That article you posted from biz.yahoo.com a few messages back has some invalid information.

First, the Escape's incentives are still exactly the same. $1500 rebate or the special financing. It's been that way for months.

Second, the Focus SVT has 2.9%/3.9%/4.9% financing for 36/48/60 months. That's it. No cash to customer or dealer.

Both Ford's and Edmunds' sites verify this. Could be that they have not posted the new info yet though.

I don't know why they would increase the rebate on the Escape seeing as how it has surpassed the Liberty in sales and has been waxing the CR-V. Ford has even been enjoying record sales with it for the past couple of months.

Maybe the fact that 2004's are on the lots right now has something to do with it. That article doesn't say which MY the rebates are for. I'm betting it only covers the 2003's if what they say is in fact true.

On another note, I do hope the SVT's incentives match that of the regular Focus at some point because it is one of the vehicles on my short list right now.

scape2 · August 2003

name calling.. icvi, I thought you were above that..
In your mind you have better resale, better chance at reliability. Hope your transmission doesn't lock up on ya! in your perfect CRV....
No, I don't approach it in a, I hate Honda fashion. I inform people about recalls and other chat rooms where people are having problems with Honda products. Honda hides issues and with the internet and the ability to share information between consumers the hiding stuff isn't going to fly for much longer.

icvci · August 2003

In your mind you have better resale, better chance at reliability.....

In my mind. In CR's mind. In Edmunds mind. In just about every review I've ever read. As I've said before, it's news when Honda has a problem. It's just another day at the office when a Ford fails.

Hope your transmission doesn't lock up on ya! in your perfect CRV

Me too. I guess we'll get it fixed : )

No, I don't approach it in a, I hate Honda fashion. I inform people about recalls and other chat rooms where people are having problems with Honda products.

Well, no one here is having a problem with a Honda. And no one on the Liberty/CR-V board is having a problem. So, it appears you aren't playing the role as casual observer quite the way you claim you are. And, on other boards you have infact, approached it as a I won't support the foreign take over of America. Which, comes off as a little anti-Honda (believe it or not).

Honda hides issues and with the internet and the ability to share information between consumers the hiding stuff isn't going to fly for much longer.

Do me a favor, take a ride in a Crown Vic with no brake lights during rush-hour. Hmmmm what could happen there? Nothing according to Ford. The only way a Ford guy slamming Honda for covering up or quality issues would be any more ironic is if you worked for Ford at their World Headquarters. Why? It's nicknamed "The Glass House".

CYA!

wheelz4 · August 2003

scape2, you must have horseshoes up your you-know-what. 28,000/26,000/30,000 whatever trouble-free miles in your Escape (or any Ford, for that matter).....man, the gods are smiling on ya. Better go out and buy a lottery ticket 'cause you're one lucky son-of-a-gun.
Yeah, the recall of a quarter million CR-V's is a black spot on Honda, but a transmission that may not shift into park is an inconvenience at most (you've still got neutral and the parking brake)
Compare that to 6+ recalls for the Escape, transmission, suspension problems, water and oil leaks, brake problems etc etc....
I'll take my chances in a Honda over a Ford any day.

baggs32 · August 2003

wheelz,
You might want to recount those recalls on the Escape again. The CR-V is almost all caught up now.

"Do me a favor, take a ride in a Crown Vic with no brake lights during rush-hour. Hmmmm what could happen there?"

I'm assuming you're referring to the unfortunate accidents involving police officers?

I don't know where you spend you're rush hours but those fires in the Crown Vics were sparked when they were rear ended by vehicles going more than 75 mph. Add to that the fact that the spare tires, which are engineered into crash structures, were removed so the cops could store other things in there (Jimmy Hoffa maybe?). They were pretty extreme cases.

Besides, they're fixing it.

icvci · August 2003

. Add to that the fact that the spare tires, which are engineered into crash structures,

Actually, that's incorrect. The punctures that caused the problems were attributed to the contents within the trunk.

http://www.cvpi.com/pdfs/SafetyMessage.pdf

I don't know where you spend you're rush hours but those fires in the Crown Vics were sparked when they were rear ended by vehicles going more than 75 mph.

Cars routinely get up to 75 around here at rush hour for awhile. Then they brake and drive 35 for 5 miles. Then 75 again for awhile. Brake...

Anyway, that wasn't my point.

Besides, they're fixing it.

After denying it for years. And that was/is the point.

baggs32 · August 2003

"Actually, that's incorrect. The punctures that caused the problems were attributed to the contents within the trunk."

That's exactly what I said. The spares weren't there to add that extra layer of crash protection. They had things like pry bars, guns, other tools, first aid kits, etc. back there in the well instead.

"After denying it for years. And that was/is the point."

They haven't been denying it for years. It's also not their fault if people are placing sharp objects in place of soft rubber! Most cars just aren't built to withstand that kind of accident.

The same damn thing would happen to an Accord given the same set of circumstances. I doubt if Honda's reaction would be any different too. No one's would.

hondaman02 · August 2003

I know I told you all I was not going to bother here anymore BUT this one was too good to let up. I have been keeping up with the posts and get a really good lauph from scape as usual. His blood pressure has got to be way up there by now! he is on every post concerning Honda's trying so hard to destroy the company!

Anyways, I wanted to respond about the Crown Vic thingy. Since some feel Fords are beter than Honda and that they (Ford) are fixing the problem with these cars, I figured I would post something I read this morning. In my opinion this is a strange way to fix a major problem:

Ford to Offer Fire Suppression for Crown Vic

With the controversy over its police cars safety still ongoing, Ford is expected to announce today that it will add fire-suppression technology to Crown Victoria police cruisers. Ford cop cars have been involved in several high-profile deaths of lawmakers, after rear-end collisions in their cruisers led to fuel-tank fires. The Detroit Free Press says Ford plans the announcement today, and the solution could involve fire-blocking foam systems. Ford also has offered plastic fuel-tanks shields for the vehicles, but the City of Dallas police department came forward with test results it says show the shields make fires even more likely. At least twelve officer deaths have been linked to the fire problem in Crown Vics.

icvci · August 2003

It's also not their fault if people are placing sharp objects in place of soft rubber! Most cars just aren't built to withstand that kind of accident.

Don't put sharp things in your trunk unless the spare tire is in place. Is that line in the owners manual? Comon! It's ridiculous to say people should assume the spare tire is an important part of a vehicles safety structure.

The same damn thing would happen to an Accord given the same set of circumstances. I doubt if Honda's reaction would be any different too. No one's would.

Ahhh but Honda doesn't sell police cars do they?
Ford has denied a problem with the vehicles and they continue to do so. If there is a fix, there was a problem. No? Maybe I should have said...Pinto?

http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?did=492&scid=96

icvci · August 2003

A nice short quiz.

http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?did=736&scid=113

But don't search Honda on their site...or I may have to eat some crow. : )

wheelz4 · August 2003

....so that's why the new-car-scent has been replaced with a lemon-fresh-scent in the new Fords I've sat in!

wheelz4 · August 2003

Got the "6" number off the Edmund's Tribute/Escape problems forum(post #22) of 2163 total posts......funny, I don't even see a CR-V problems forum. Can only find 5 of them on the government "recall" site...wheels may fall off, fuel leakage/fire, wipers may fly off, cruise control may cause throttle to stick, steering wheel may come off. Still only see one for the current generation CR-V (the one scape2 keeps reminding us about), so can't see why you say CR-V is almost all caught up. Anyway, as icvi's quiz points out, Ford tops the Lemon list with the Escape being the most "lemony"!

odie6l · August 2003

I did not need to see this;

http://www.thewgalchannel.com/8onyourside/2273381/detail.html

and on a side note, My engine light is back on. (just as I was passing the dealer no less) Pulled in to the service department and had them hook up to the computer, turns out there is an emission's leak somewhere in the exhaust. I have to drop off on monday to have a Exploratory Diagnostic System Check (sounds like a Medical Procedure to me) Luckily I'm getting a 2003 for a loaner. I'll keep you posted with what happens.

Odie

baggs32 · August 2003

"funny, I don't even see a CR-V problems forum. Can only find 5 of them on the government "recall" site"

You must have searched incorrectly because at last count there were only 5 (I thought it was four when I posted that). Some of which were issued before any were even sold. All of which affect very small lots of early production copies.

What year is your CR-V? If it's a 2002 you are now on your third recall. My Escape is a 2002 which has no recalls at all.

I'm not going to say the Escape has been perfect, but it's not as bad as it looks.

There was a CR-V problem forum at one time. I don't know if it's still there though. Anyway, all CR-V problems were posted in the main CR-V forum. I used to follow along to keep tabs on the CR-V folks over here.

"Don't put sharp things in your trunk unless the spare tire is in place. Is that line in the owners manual?"

Don't get rear ended by a vehicle travelling at a high rate of speed. That's not there either. How do you expect them to fix that one? I think force fields are still under development.

They're not fixing a problem with the police cruisers. Extreme circumstances call for extreme measures. Seriously, what do you want them to do? Line the CV's with tank armor?

icvci · August 2003

Seriously, what do you want them to do? Line the CV's with tank armor?

If it's going to get hit with the force of a vehicle at 75mph perhaps that wouldn't be such a bad idea. From what I read on the links I posted, much of the problem isn't that the cars burst into flames, it's that the occupants couldn't get out. Whatever. Like I said, I'll remove Crown Vic and insert Pinto.

bess · August 2003

Your quote:
28,000/26,000/30,000 whatever trouble-free miles in your Escape (or any Ford, for that matter)..... your one lucky son-of-a-gun

30K+ trouble free miles on my 01' Escape.
60k+ trouble free miles on my 00' F250 SuperDuty.
200k+ trouble free miles on my 89' Ranger.
60k+ trouble free miles on a previous Windstar (before trading it in)

My family has had similar experience with their Fords as well (Escorts, Escapes, F150s, F350s, Probe, Contour etc).

This is not any more 'lucky' than your positive experiences with Honda.

hondaman02 · August 2003

Not all data leads to your lucky experiences:

Quote from car connection..........

"Getting It Right At The Beginning"

If automakers want to develop a long-term relationship with potential customers, they need to start paying attention to quality earlier in the development process, according to the guru of auto industry quality, J.D. Power and Associates. According to Joe Ivers, a partner in the firm that measures the pulse of vehicle buyers, too many times an automaker will wait until the first production vehicle is built before it begins to address quality issues that begin to surface.

Ivers, speaking at University of Michigan's industry management seminar in northern Michigan, told of trends from three of the companys customer satisfaction studies that measure initial satisfaction, vehicle dependability and customer satisfaction. At some OEMs, the quality vice presidents job begins at Job 1, when the first production vehicle rolls off the assembly line, said Ivers. More and more the differences in the quality of the vehicles should be determined before the start of production. Such quality is dependent on good choices in design and engineering, including at the supplier level when they are development partners, rather than through manufacturing fixes, so the opportunity to get it right is before the program is frozen, he said. Thats what really seems to differentiate those who do it best.

And getting it right to start with has a residual loyalty effect that can filter down to the used car market where potential new car customers are bred. Vehicle development decisions also need to determine which priorities among consumers are most important long-term. Someone buying a new Corvette who would only keep it a few years would likely view quality priorities differently than a used-car purchaser whose main need is long-term dependability. Companies that have built in quality earlier in the processs have tended to benefit, long-term, from such loyalty and wear a halo effect that translates into new car sales as those customers move up the system. Good examples of halo companies, with a few exceptions, would Toyota and also Honda, he said.

Actually warranty costs are going down, according to Ivers. But those savings are funding the warranties in some cases, especially where theres a perception of a vehicle manufacturer being quality challenged. For example, in terms of initial quality the Korean manufacturers now are where the bulk of Japanese vehicle makers were about five years ago. Long term, theyre not even in the same ballpark, he said.

And the way warranty work is handled can squeeze customer loyalty at the dealership level if the dealer has increasing sales but has not provided adequate service facilities. Those who dont will risk losing return customers permanently once the warranty expires. Some customers still have to wait for weeks to get into a dealers service bay for repair. Those customers could abandon the dealership for the major repair chains or, worse, find a neighborhood mechanic once theyre on their own. When they talk about having their own mechanic, theyre gone for good, he said. Martha Hindes

ccna · August 2003

08:30 Aug. 06, 2003)
Honda extends warranty on Odyssey, TL transmissions

By AUTOMOTIVE NEWS

TOKYO - Honda Motor Co. is extending the warranty on automatic transmissions installed on about 100,000 1999 model-year Acura TLs and Honda Odysseys.

The vehicles were sold in the United States.

Honda did not say how many of the transmissions have been repaired already.

Honda said the warranty will be extended to 7 years/100,000 miles from 3 years/36,000 miles for the Odyssey and from 4 years/50,000 miles for the Acura TL.

Last September, Honda announced extended coverage for 2000-2003 Honda Odysseys, Accords and Preludes, and Acura TLs and CLs.

**not to mention the latest recalls on 2002-03 cr-v.**

icvci · August 2003

Than all of the recalls Ford has had on the Focus alone.

wheelz4 · August 2003

maybe we should get back on track here....last time I checked, this was the CR-V vs Escape forum, not "Recall Wars".
CR-V has it over the Escape in best power/fuel economy combination, nicer, roomier interior, refinement, cargo space, reliability, resale.
Escape is more powerful (at the expense of fuel economy), better for towing, better (more sophisticated) AWD system, bigger wheels/tires,
nicer hatch arrangement (as opposed to CR-V's wrong swinging door/mounted-spare combo).
I'd be looking for more authoritative styling, bigger wheels 'n tires and a proper rear hatch before I'd buy a CR-V. The Escape would have to be quieter, have a more upscale, comfortable interior and get better mileage, not to mention have way better reliability before I'd part with my hard-earned cash.

varmint · August 2003

Baggs - The additional incentives on the Escape have been published recently by several sources. They were not in effect for July. This one doesn't list the specific dollar amounts, but it states, "On Tuesday, Ford sweetened its offers on five Ford models." That would have been Tuesday of this week.

http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/030806/autos_ford_costs_1.html

The first article states "rebates", which I would assume means rebates to the customer. However, it's possible that the money is going to the dealer so that they can deal below invoice without loosing money. That sort of incentive would not be published here at Edmunds.

For the on-going reliability war...

A UK consumer magazine named WHICH? ranked several Honda models as the least likely to break down. They surveyed owners for failures resulting in a car that won't start. The CR-V scored a 99% and several other Hondas (built in the same Swindon plant) earned 100% scores. Swindon also supplies half of the CR-Vs shipped to North America.

hondaman02 · August 2003

It still amazes me to read that even after all the many years of consumer proof and magazine testing that people really want to believe that Ford outlasts Honda or Toyota or is at least as good. When I used to write up on this board I mentioned that with our company we rent approximately 50 cars and trucks each year and have done this for about 15 years. This is how I was introduced to Honda's in the first place. I can say from personal experience that American (especially Ford) cars don't even come close!

I now own a 02 CRV and a new Accord V6 6 speed! These add up to my 12th and 13th Honda with only one minor problem in all these years! I just had my CRV checked for the recall listed and when I was at the garage, the mechanic said there was no rust anywhere on the transmission piece and I have 66000km's of driving with Canadian winters! he said that Honda was not really sure what batch of parts were defective and decided to be cautious and check them all. Really big problem!! In my opinion the stalling problem of the Escape (witch is not resolved) is much more dangerous and bothersome as it did happen to me twice with a rental Mazda Tribute!

If you want American get a Liberty..........we have had 4 on long term and they have been great except for terrible millage and a little slow for a V6! You want a pick-up get the F-150...........you want a daily commuter SUV "GET A CRV"!

hondaman02 · August 2003

I guess no more needs to be said!

http://money.cnn.com/2003/08/08/pf/autos/ford.reut/index.htm?cnn=- yes

baggs32 · August 2003

hondaman,
Please tell me which garden hose I should buy as it seems you have all the answers.

Buy a CR-V. No thanks. I'd rather be happy and stalling than unhappy and trouble free.

varmint,
No new incentives here:
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2003/ford/focus/100205808/incentives.h- tml?tid=edmunds.n.prices.npt..7.Ford*

here:
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2003/ford/escape/100079613/incentives.- html?tid=edmunds.n.prices.npt..7.Ford*

or here:
http://www.fordvehicles.com/incentives/offers/

I don't know where they are getting that information from. In fact, not only did the Focus SVT and Escape incentives not get "sweeter", the Ranger's incentives dropped by $1000. That's not to say that other didn't get better, but I don't see any proof of what your sources state.

Ford's site is usually the most accurate and up to date while Edmunds provides us with a better break down. They also show dealer cash which Ford's site does not.

I also checked the Ford Partner site and there is no mention of "sweetened" incentives for the Escape or SVT Focus. They haven't budged.

Here's the 2004 Escape:
http://www.fordvehicles.com/incentives/offers/results/index.asp

You'll note that it is $500 lower than the 2003's. Maybe that's where they got the $500 increase. It's actually a $500 decrease for the 2004 model because the 2003's have been at $1500 for some time now. The 2004's financing deals aren't as good either.

hondaman02 · August 2003

"Buy a CR-V. No thanks. I'd rather be happy and stalling than unhappy and trouble free."

I am having a hard time finding the logic in that one!!!!!!!!!!!! I did not think that Ford puts in their brochures that you will be happy stalling compared to the Honda CRV being trouble free and extremely unhappy!
I am sooooo unhappy with my CRV that is why I bought another Honda! LOL!

By the way..........make sure that your garden hose is 100% rubber as they do tend to last longer...Just like the CRV I guess!

tidester · August 2003

Let's keep excerpts from copyrighted material short so we don't step on any toes!

tidester, host

baggs32 · August 2003

"I am having a hard time finding the logic in that one!!!!!!!"

It means I like the Escape loads more than the CR-V. What was so hard about that?

Haven't you ever seen the bumper stickers that say something to the effect of "I'd rather push my Dodge than drive a Ford"? It's kind of like that, only I liked the Liberty more than the CR-V too. I guess I'd rather push a Ford and a Jeep than drive a CR-V.

It's about like and dislike for a lot of people. Not what this mag said and that mag said. We all have different needs. You guys put too much emphasis on reliability ratings anyway. Who cares? Look at the Explorer and it's new recall. Ford will still sell ~500,000 of them even though you and CR and JD and etc. say it's a piece of junk.

I know icvci. Incentives, fleets, etc... If everyone cares so much about reliability ratings they why do they still buy what the same mag calls junk? Why are they even looking at the ratings at all? I know why I don't.

I and my wife are very happy with our choice. It didn't have to "grow on us" like the CR-V would have had to. I'm still trying to get the Civic to grow on me now that I drive it every day. It ain't workin'.

When's the Mazda3 coming out again?

"By the way..........make sure that your garden hose is 100% rubber as they do tend to last longer...Just like the CRV I guess!"

Are either of those guaranteed?

I didn't think so. In fact, I know so.

icvci · August 2003

I know icvci. Incentives, fleets, etc... If everyone cares so much about reliability ratings they why do they still buy what the same mag calls junk?

There is a very large portion of our country that won't even consider purchasing a foreign vehicle. Don't forget that.

Thanks for remembering fleets and incentives.

baggs32 · August 2003

"There is a very large portion of our country that won't even consider purchasing a foreign vehicle. Don't forget that."

Very true. Although I thought my Dad was one of them until he traded the old Escort in for a Hyundai of all things. I almost passed out!

He bought the Hyundai (Accent) for two reasons. One, it is for my Mom and she wanted something comparable in size to the Escort. The Focus was too big and I told him to stay away from those. Two, it was dirt cheap. It's perfect for what she's going to use it for. Hell, a scooter would be perfect for what she's going to use it for.

She thinks the Escape is gargantuan. Funny how that all works.

scape2 · August 2003

I am just a one man wrecking machine! Got this room started again with a bang!
Yep, icvi I am on a mission to destroy Honda.. Thats good. The recalls on the Ford Escape/Tribute are from 01, when are people going to get it?? But, with people like icvi and varmit, and hondaman around they will keep bringing up the recalls, but not tell anyone they are for 01 model year AND for a certain build lot on top of that!
Fact is the CRV sales are down and Escape sales are up. If the Escape was such a terrible, unreliable vehicle, plagued with massive problems they would not sell. Consumers are much smarter these days and do their homework.
The Odessy is Honda's nightmare and problems plague this van. Pilot also not doing so hot. Heck, check the Edmunds review, thiers broke down!! LOL!....

scape2 · August 2003

Tonight my wife and I were out and she wanted to test drive an 03 Accord LX. We are seriously thinking of buying a new car. (see I'm not all anti-Honda). She also likes the Mazda 6 and the Camry. We get in, car starts. We are driving along. Sales guy is going into his speal about the new features, then.. wammo! car dies right in the middle of a 4 lane road in the middle of rush hour traffic!! I am lucky as heck we were not on a freeway. Car won't start, plenty of gas. The only thing that comes on is the engine light. I'm laughing and thinking about how great Honda's are supposed to be, this board and people like icvi, varmit, hondaman who swear Honda's don't have problems or very few anyway. We are holding up traffic causing a mess. I also laughed because all these people are glaring at us and the Honda.... I know some may not believe me but this is a full true story. All I know is the 100's of people that were delayed sure remember the car was a Honda being towed away...

scape2 · August 2003

buying foreign goods. The fact is we have exported Billions of dollares of our wealth and it is never coming back. Fact is we have lost over 30million manufacturing jobs in the last 5-10 years. Fact is we are in a recession that can turn into deflaction because of cheap foreign goods and the export of U.S. labor to cheaper labor markets. Fact is we are all linked economicaly. I don't work, I don't buy your goods or services you provide = you don't work.
cheers...

CR-V vs Escape

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