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Comments
Steve, Host
You may be surprised to learn that all high volume vehicles produced by Honda since the new Ody have earned near perfect scores on the NHTSA frontal and side impacts. They also score very highly on the IIHS frontal crash. The MDX, Pilot, Ody, CR-V, Civic are each near the top of their respective classes. The redesigned Accord, new TSX, and upcoming TL are all expected to score highly.
With respect to the CR-V, this latest test is the only one it has not aced. Yet the CR-V still earned the highest rating for a vehicle sans airbags.
Honda owns the largest indoor crash testing facility in the industry. This facility allows them to test vehicles all year round. It is also arguably the most technologically advanced facility in the industry, though Volvo also has a very advanced site that rivals Honda's on the tech front.
Honda vehicles are also designed for pedestrian impacts. Auto vs pedestrian impacts are a significant concern in the JDM and UK markets. While this is not tested in North America, the CR-V earned a much higher ranking than anything else in a UK test.
The torso bags used in most all Honda vehicles have an occupant positioning detection system, which prevents the bags from injuring small children or passengers who lean into the path of the airbag. While some other luxury brands offer devices similar to these, most passenger car companies do not.
The CR-V and Civic use dual-pretentioned belts, which are an industry first. The IIHS gives these belts credit for the Civic's best pick rating in their off-set impact.
Honda has also developed a crash avoidance system. This system uses local radar to detect to position of the vehicle in front of the Honda and proactively warns the driver of a crash. It starts with an audible warning, then takes the slack out of the seat belt and slows the car using the brakes. It is designed to assist in preventing accidents due to drowsy drivers. This is unlike other systems that wait for driver interaction before taking any action (like Toyota's design) and the radar is not fooled as easily by turning cars and such.
If you think that Honda hasn't been paying attetion to safety, you haven't been paying attention to Honda.
That would most certainly backfire. You would have people competing for their 5 minutes of fame.
tidester, host
Just a side note that I wanted to mention awhile back, did anyone see the recent Acura showcar? Instead of wipers, it used a blower system to keep the windshield clear. Pretty cool. Can't make wiper companies too happy.
But it might be back-firing on them when you look at how the newer SUV's have actually become more dangerous to vehicle occupants because of their more rigid construction. But hey, they're safer for the people inside them and they score well on the IIHS's tests so who cares right?
There once was a day when vehicles would "crumple" in a crash to save lives. Now they're just going to drive through another vehicle much like the tines on a forklift would.
All that because some people pay too much attention to crash tests. If you think about it, that's pretty scary too.
Was that for the sedan only though? I know our coupe wasn't deemed as safe as the sedan. Most aren't for that matter.
Yes, with side airbags. I don't think that diminishes the feat though. Ford could have tried it with the Escort. Or the ZX2. Or the Focus. Or the Tracer. Or the Aspire. Or any car under $40,000 in the last two years.
There once was a day when vehicles would "crumple" in a crash to save lives.
If the IIHS test is accurate, Hondas still do.
I don't expect much but, we shall see.
Without airbags the Focus received one less star overall than a comparable Civic. I don't know if the Focus even had side airbags when it was introduced. If it didn't they wouldn't have tested it.
It is also very uncommon.
Odie
Steve, Host
By the way.. with the 0 percent financing Ford is offering and with having under 4K left to pay on my 01 Escape.. I am in negotiations via internet sales office for a new 03 Escape! We will see what happens. I am going to get the Limited edition in Blue..
P.S. Buying a new Escape seems like a waste of money to me. If you're truely worried about towing, hauling and off road stuff why not get a Liberty? It offers 172lbs. more payload capacity so your 5 friends could weigh 170lbs. instead of 136.
--Price of the vehicle, plus gas mileage. I know it isn't great in the Escape/Tribute (I've got a Tribute), but I just couldn't justify the low mileage in the Liberty.
<<kidding!!>>
http://www.hwysafety.org/news_releases/2000/pr121400.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2003-02-25-crash-tests_x.htm
Granted these are older cars and such, but if there is a better was to spend a few hundred dollars on a car, I cannot think of it.
100% of the time the person would have been killed. With the number of trucks and large SUVs on the road, that is scary.
I am always disappointed that only the driver seems gets them in most cars. I would prefer for them to be in both the front and back.
Honda doesn't even offer a CRV that has options like a Limited Escape.. I only have about 1 more year to pay on my Escape and its all mine. Tempting both ways....
They don't need one, yet. The CR-V is selling pretty much at max capacity with the current trim levels. When sales dip lower near the end of the model's run, they'll probably bring back the SE trim.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2003-06-17-crash-tests_x.htm
Someone asked if cars will be tested. Read the last sentence of this article to find out.
This board died....
The 6 is awfully nice. Drive the 4 cylinder version before you choose. It really is a nice engine and the fuel economy and weight savings are a plus. Some have even suggested the 4 is a better fit and that the car handles better due to balance issues.
V6
Towing capacity
Leather
Temperature Gauge
Power Seats
Tailgate
4WD on command
Popular styling
Escape Cons
MPG
Early Reliability issues
Popular styling
Resale going to pot with current incentives
Typical Ford interior
CR-V Pros
MPG
4 cylinder that acts like a 6 in the city
Pass-through
Rear seat leg room
Rear seat configuration (slide and recline)
Rear seats are stepped up for a nice view out
Great value for the $
Excellent crash test scores
Excellent resale value
Typical Honda reliability
Clean engine
Tons of cargo room
Typical Honda interior
Unique look
Insurance rates
CR-V cons
4cyl won't compensate for physical short comings
Not made for towing
Rear gate swings toward curb
Intermitten wipers not variable
Rear mounted spare can cause major damage
Small rear bumper
Unique look
We bought our CR-V because it did everything we need it to do well. I know Honda isn't infallible but, if I had to put a bet on which vehicle wouldn't leave my family stranded, I'd chose Honda. It's an big story, when one does leave you high-and-dry. While the MPG difference isn't huge, it's a start. And the cleaner engine is a bonus, especially if you don't really need the 6.
The Escape is nice, and I may have considered it further if they offered a decent 4cyl and 4wd and an auto tranny. They don't so, it was ruled out quickly. Power seats, leather and a temperature gauge are nice but, not deal makers/breakers for me. If you need to tow, the Escape is the best choice. While current incentives are killing resale, they are also making the Escape quite affordable.
You can't go wrong either way. Take a test drive, or two.
Odie
And: on my Civic I have a wiper control that has 3 or 4 speed settings. Does the CRV have this?
Damage Repair Costs in Four Low-Speed Crash Tests at 5 MPH (Insurance Institute for Highway Safety)
Steve, Host
If you back into something with the CR-V or, if you are rear-ended you could incur major damage if the spare tire is involved. It's just more to fix. And, it could shatter the rear window. It's nothing I lose sleep over, we have insurance.
"Safety and Security
Ford Escape has been designed with safety as a top priority. Front fender reinforcement helps direct the energy load of a frontal crash between the lower frame rail and an upper path that goes through the roof, away from occupants.
An energy-absorbing steering column works with energy-absorbing knee bolsters, located below the instrument panel, to reduce the risk of injuries for front seat occupants. Standard high-tensile-steel side-intrusion door beams help to protect passengers in side impacts.
Driver and front passenger air bags are standard. Pretensioners combined with load limiting retractors are standard on front-seat belts. In a crash, these pretensioners automatically tighten the belts, while the load limiters are designed to reduce the risk of chest injuries in severe collisions. Escape Limited models have side air bags for the driver and front passenger as standard equipment.
The Ford SecuriLock™ engine immobilizer is standard on all Escapes. The system uses a key containing an electronically encrypted transponder that communicates with a transceiver unit in the ignition system. Without the proper key, the vehicle cannot be started."
It may explain why the roof buckles a little in the IIHS test which doesn't seem like such a bad thing after all.
My bias opinion is... The V6 in the Escape is a blast to drive. It pulls the vehicle around and has the feel of confidence when you need that extra torque/HP. I use my Escape to tow my 2 watercraft and gear and its never had any problems.. CRV can't do this... Come on back and let us know what you buy!
Few other points for the Escape..
Stops faster than the CRV..
Latest Crashtest shows Escape does just as well as CRV when equipped with side air bags also..
If you want a station wagon buy a CRV....
Latest Crash test shows Escape does just as well as CRV when equipped with side air bags also..
Is completely inaccurate. A CR-V with side air bags wasn't tested, so we don't know how it would compare. When the two vehicles are compared like model for like model, the CR-V comes out on top. I'd expect the same to be true if a CR-V with side air bags was test. I didn't say would, I said expect.
Resale is a moot point? The money that comes off the top now will come off the bottom later too. You can't just make it cheaper and say they're even, incentives will effect the selling price. The inital resale value difference wasn't there due to incentives.
Stopping distance for both is excellent. Depending on what publication you believe, they are very close. The Escape does do better though. And you'll rarely see one with clean wheels because of it. On the upside, you can write your name in the brake dust and pretend like you have customized wheels.
Here's the latest from CR -
Predicted reliability HALF BLACK HALF WHITE 9.3% to 14.8%
Key to trouble-spot Ratings
Percentage of owners reporting problems -
RED WITH WHITE DOT 2.0% or less
HALF RED HALF WHITE DOT 2.0% to 5.0%
WHITE DOT 5.0% to 9.3%
HALF BLACK HALF WHITE 9.3% to 14.8%
SOLID BLACK More than 14.8%
The CR-V is a tall wagon. A more comfortable ride, just like a car.
I've seen many a new Accord, BMW, MB, etc. with the same dilemma. It seems to be a growing trend because the softer pads do help stopping distances. Look around, you'll see what I'm talking about. I never paid much attention either until it was brought up on an Escape board somewhere (maybe this one).
You're a safety minded guy. Which would you rather have, clean wheels or shorter stopping distances? If an inch or two of extra foot well intrusion from a crash test mean so much then surely a few feet of stopping distance will too?
"Depending on what publication you believe, they are very close."
It also depends on how what you believe is close. The most I've seen was a difference of 8 feet which can be pretty considerable depending on the situation.
On average, they are very close though.
I think it's a pretty useless stat. I'd be more interested in fade and keeping the vehicle straight than actual distance needed to stop from 60. I can't remember which mag does the 0-100-0 test. It's a neat comparo but, what value does it have? If I'm not racing, who cares?
BTW my uncle has a 2003 Expedition and he HATES the fact he can't keep his polished wheels clean. There were a couple of weeks this past winter where it just wasn't practical to wash your vehicle, so he didn't. He said it took him forever to get the caked on, baked on dust off. I think he needs to get a really good wax for his wheels.
Then again, I had a friend in high school who's grandfather gave him a 1986 Ferrari GTS Turbo. His wheels were always super dirty after one day of driving. I guess you just have to be very diligent.
I hear wax is the way to go to keep the dust from sticking. Just don't use any spray on crap because you don't want that stuff on the rotors.
"I have never needed to stop from 60 using the full force of my brakes, can't imagine needing to either."
You've never been on the highway when everything in front of you just stops? It's especially fun when there's fog or rain. I actually had to run my old ZX2 off the road to avoid hitting the car in front of me one time because it wouldn't stop fast enough after the ABS (which isn't the best on an Escort mind you) kicked in. Luckily it was a highway with the big grassy area separating both directions.
I have not had to perform a major panic stop in the Escape yet, but I can tell that it is a much, much better stopper than most vehicles I've driven.
Yes, it was a controlled stop. Not a full force, pedal to the floor stop. I could see that traffic ahead was coming to a stand still so I began to slow down. Some times it's a little more urgent but, still not slamming on the brakes. I'm pretty sure braking tests are full force, pedal to the floor how fast can you stop. They'd have to be otherwise they'd be open to driver error or technique (much like 0-60 tests are). I just don't think that's realistic or very relevent.
See, that's the problem. Not all of them are. The situation I described above was a full force pedal to the floor stop. There was an accident about 10-15 cars in front of us (this was on a highway right after a concert so traffic was very heavy) and traffic just stopped dead. We had to go from about 70 MPH down to zero in a matter of seconds. If the ZX2 could have stopped 10-12 feet sooner I wouldn't have had to go off into the grass. I probably would have been rear-ended myself though.
Believe me, it was pretty scary. I've been paying more attention to stopping distances since that happened.
I had a similar experience one foggy Ohio morning while driving the Civic (on our way to the Rock & Roll HOF). Fortunately it was more controlled because the Civic doesn't have ABS. Still mighty scary though.
Anyway, 40-0 would be another reasonable test, but I don't think the numbers would change much. The gap might be even bigger at lower speeds due to brake fade and other factors. Could be smaller smaller for the same reasons too.
Yet another reason I don't really see 60-0 as a saftey issue. I guess it's much like your crash test argument. In real life there are so many variables. i.e. road surface, temperature, direction etc.
I think the CR-V would do better over time due to it's 4 wheel discs. Discs handle heat better than drums and heat would be the enemy.
I have been rear ended twice on the freeway. Once in the Fiero, by 2 cars that pushed me into 4 others. And once in my CRX, by a 911 that pushed me into a Ranger. Both times I had stopped completely. No injuries other than the vehicles. Fiero sustained $2,000 worth of damage, the CRX was totaled. ($7,600 to the Porsche.)
I'm not really looking at it as a safety issue as much as an insurance issue. I don't want to be the one doing the rear ending.
I can't control the driver behind me, but if I can stop faster and avoid hitting the person in front of me, then none of it is my fault. I don't want to be the cause. I'm not saying CR-V drivers do either, but those Hummer drivers are another story.
Is a Ford dealer the only place to order extra keys? If so, how much are they?
You would be correct. My dad had an extra one made for his 96 Sable back in 1996 and it was about $50 without the key fob.
I think you'll be looking at anywhere from $50-$100 for another one.
Resale value... You pay more upfront for a like optioned CRV, you better get more for it at resale.. You either get it coming or going. Resale and Honda.. Keep trying to play up the resale game. Fact is you pay more upfront for Honda products. Anyone who does thier homework will see this.
Up until recently a comparably equipped Escape cost more than a CR-V UNLESS, you got some sort of Ford discount. Even when the Escape cost MORE it's resale was lower than the CR-V. Now that it's inital cost is lower than the CR-V, it's resale is really going to tumble.
By the thousands.. oh yeah, I guess its the extra $500 dollar incentive
Actually here, it's $1500 BEFORE employee/supplier/family discount.
If we each bought our chosen vehicle last year (before the Ford incentives kicked in), then we both may have paid the same price. Call it $21K, just for the sake of argument. A year later, both vehicles will have depreciated about $2K. So, we both take the same $2K hit.
That's not the end of it. Because Ford now offers larger incentives on the Escape, the selling price of a new Escape is lower than it was when we both bought our vehicles. The same rig is now going for about $20K. Your resale value is the current purchase price minus depreciation. No one is going to buy your used vehicle when they can get a brand new one for only a little bit more. So the math is done by subtracting the $2K depreciation from the current sale price of $20K. You have a resale value of $18K and have lost a total of $3K.
Meanwhile, the Honda is not being discounted and the selling price of a new model is still around $21K. The market value of my CR-V is $21K minus $2K. The resale value is $19K with a loss of only $2K.
Now do you see how those incentives hurt resale? As the purchase price of a new Escape continues to drop, it kills the resale of any vehicle that has already been sold. And it's not likely that the Escape can avoid further discounting. GM continues to up their incentives and both Ford and DCX have little choice but to follow. If they do not, they will lose market share. Which means they will no longer be able to sell those Escapes that are piling up on the loading docks.
My brand loyalty is about as deep as the layer of bills in my wallet, and a 4 or 5 thousand dollar savings on a new ride can pay for a new tranny plus a trip to Disneyland (or an extended warranty).
Just tossing out numbers here, btw - I didn't review TMV for the Escape or CR-V.
Steve, Host