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So you're the one!
Honestly, my wife is embarrassed to go on test drives with me because I'm always correcting the sales people. The Mazda salesman we are currently dealing with has been the best I've seen so far. Probably because he's been there for a few years now. He was able to correctly answer about 95% of the "test" questions I threw at him. Most others hover around the 25%-50% range.
The thing I like about the Honda dealers I ended up using is their love of what they sell. They know you're getting a good product and they are happy to sell it. Actually, the good ones seemed proud to be Honda dealers.
Look at all of the posts on this board and not one from a Ford dealer.
I don't know what that says. All I know is it seems many Honda sales people are truely fans of what they sell.
I think this is one of those cases where anecdotal experience does not add up. According to an article published in the WSJ, the CR-V (along with 4 other Hondas) is in the top 10 for vehicles that spend the least amount of time on the lot.
If you came to my store and asked for me (or anyone else here).....yea, I am the "one" as you pointed out. It's my job to know the competition and what is out there. I didn't just answer an ad in the paper because I couldn't sell encyclopedias, this is my profession. A true salesman learns this ahead of time, so when you come in I am ready to sell you a quality product. I am sorry that you have had bad or not so knowledgeable sales people.....haven't gone to right store....for the right product.
Thanks varmint....If I say it, I am a salesman....it must be a lie.
Do you really expect a brand new model from a manufacturer to be perfect from the first day it's available? I don't. Not from Honda, Toyota, Ford, GM, Chrysler, or any other manufacturer.
Where did I say I had a bad experience?
This CRV vs. Escape forum is really a waste of resources, too much arguing.
Are you sure about that? It seems to me that if I entered your store I'd only find you sitting in front of a PC reading Edmunds threads only to have to deal with someone else.
"I am sorry that you have had bad or not so knowledgeable sales people.....haven't gone to right store....for the right product."
I'm referring to Honda sales people too. The last one we dealt with was one of the worst. He knew absolutely nothing about the 2003 Accord and only wanted to push a 2002 on us even though we specifically stated that we didn't want a 2002.
Then he tried to sell us a CR-V because it is derived from a car and has about the same amount of room as the Accord. Whatever.
To top things off, he told me that the Pilot (which I did ask to see) was a real truck because it is derived from one.
I of course corrected him, left, and am now not allowed to go back while my wife is at my side.
All this because I wanted to see a new Accord which they didn't have any of to begin with. I was about a month too early as it turns out.
I am sorry to mention you Mike...I wasn't trying to imply anything. The statement that Bess had made made it seem you had a problem before and she brought your name up. I am sorry, didn't mean to upset.
I'm not trying to argue hear. And in fact if anyone wanted to go back to any of my old posts I am in favor of trying help the relationship between consumers and sales people. The relationship was severed way before my time and there are still SOME shaddy guys out there, I don't deny it. All I say is that not all of us are liers and crooks. So when I make a point and it gets ignored and goes right to car salesman bashing, well I get a little excited....If I offended..I am sorry..
It goes back to the fact I sell a excellent product, and I am proud of it and I don't have to lie when I say it's better than most. If you don;t want to buy it,,,ok, get out of the way because there are two others behind you that does. But don't bash it with opinions or just because you heard that your neighbor knew someone that had a friend that knew someone that had a realitive that knew someone that had a bad experience with a Honda. It's the facts that speak loud, if you ignore them well no one can help that, but don't try to talk over them...
Now to 'stop the dancing', I did also agree with you that Fords incentives do affect sales. Why do they help? Because you can get an Escape which is as good as the CRV for less money than you pay for the Escape. For some folks, if you can get the same for less, that indicates a better value.
However, for many other buyers, they have a preference in the look and feel of the vehicle or for the dealer sales staff and service which will lean them in one direction or the other and a $1000 difference in price doesn't matter.
No one is 'ignoring facts'. You take offense to folks 'bashing salesmen'. Yet it is you who spread mis-information such as "I know they (Ford Owners) all hang out together.........at the closest Ford service station". Is this just salesman view, or just your personal opinion? The facts are that the Escape is not unreliable, or undependable. You can choose the ignore those facts, but don't try to talk over them.
I admit that I do prefer the Ford brand, and much of the preference comes from me and my familys satisfaction with the quality of Fords. We've owned many models from Escorts, Taurus, Rangers, Probe, Windstars, F150, SuperDuty, and Escape. All have either lasted well over 150K miles or were sold in response to changing family needs. None has left us stranded, or needed towed or required any extensive maintenance. One exception is my Ranger did have a manual tranny problem at 220K miles.
If I bought all Hondas, would they be just as good? According to what I've read, from experiences from friends, and my experience with other Honda products, probably so.
Someone mentioned "that there are millions of happy Honda owners, and that they receive many positive reviews and awards." The same can be said for the Escape.
When I hear Honda fanatics saying, 'all (or most) Fords are junk, or require alot of service, or are undependable, or are unreliable', simply are ignoring the facts.
There was no offense meant here, just the real facts state that you are a rare breed as far as being totally satistied over and over and over.
No offense taken sellinhonda. You seem to be one of the more knowledgeable sales persons and I'm sure you'll agree that in any profession there are bad apples. The car sales/service industry has had a black eye for some time, so it's not easy for an honest person to make it. I'm thinking about getting a dealer's license, small volume seller, part time. There's a huge auto auction close to me so I may be able to make a few bucks. Email me offline if you have any tips or comments.
Bess, I'm glad you and your family have had good experiences with Fords. I think some opinions are formed based on how good/bad the local dealership is. An honest sales and competent service depts. can greatly affect people's opinions.
Which "facts" led you to that conclusion? The only car-specific source we've seen thus far points to the Escape being below average. Is there a source you haven't shared with us?
Which aren't facts either. All of that info is based on reviewer opinion and/or owner surveys, not the real data.
To see the real data you'll have to pull it from the manufacturer's cold dead hands.
Honda's would be written in invisible ink.
Too bad you were such a rebel and broke the silence on your Civic. You could be enjoying the life of riley too.
Ahhhh the good life. Keep it coming Honda.
Invisible ink and the ability to brain wash. Looks like all Ford needs is the ink.
per 100 vehicles how many problems were ACTUALLY< THATS RIGHT< ACTUALLY reported for three year old vehicle. Number 1 - Acura. Number 4 - Honda behind Toyota and Lexus. Number 15 - Ford.
For 5 year old vehicle, BEST vehicle - number 1 - HONDA CRV with HONDA ODYSSEY right behind them.
....all typed in real ink, and I can read it so it must not be invisible.
They also have done tests (actual tests, not my dad likes his Taurus so it must be good kinda test) and used cars to avoid, guess who made it.....Escape 01-02.
Guess which one made it for every year it has been produced for being a reliable used car...CRV 97-02.
But hey, if your happy with it................
We only take scientific, formulated, cold, hard, irrefutable facts here. Stuff like, the CR-V is ugly. And, !*!*!EXPLODING GLASS!*!*!*!.
Please don't trivialize our discussion with a report from a respected consumer agency.
The nerve of some people.
It's all research. Research results are not facts. Crash tests are not facts either because they are trying to control something that is out of control.
CR is one of the worst because they ask the same people, who own the same vehicles, the same questions year in and year out.
Those people pay to read their rag and most likely own the vehicles which were rated highest.
How is that fact?
Fact would be the real numbers from the manufacturers.
However, I do believe Honda would still rate slightly higher even with the real data. I just don't think it would be by as wide a margin as CR reports.
CR's data is indeed fact. They send surveys. They gather data. They publish it. It's a fact. How anyone wishes to interpret that data is where things get fuzzy. It's the conclusion you draw from those facts that can be questioned. I think that is what you are getting at.
That said, my position seems pretty reasonable. I believe that the average CR-V has a greater chance of being reliable (above average) than the Escape. I base that conclusion on many things. One of which is the data collected by CR. It is a fact which I use to support my conclusion.
This appears to sum up your position: "However, I do believe Honda would still rate slightly higher even with the real data. I just don't think it would be by as wide a margin as CR reports." If CR is unreliable as a source, to what "facts" do you attribute this opinion? Seriously, if CR's methodology is as bogus as you claim, what evidence supports your conclusion? How can you measure the "margin" without seeing Ford and Honda's secret data?
Not true. Research results are facts. Also, they are done under controlled conditions. The problem is in attempting to relate those facts to situations where the control variables are not prescribed and other variables exist.
If you have a better way of doing crash testing we won't stand in your way! :-)
tidester, host
But would they lie about their vehicles? Really? Then why wouldn't Ford start buying the rag for their employees and have the employees pump up their vehicles? Maybe they aren't as devious as me? (I doubt it.)
Anway, we could also go with
http://www.autopacific.com/sub.php?action=view&sub=§i- on=12&type=97&group=190&id=255
Or J.D. Power
Or Intellichoice
Or consumer reviews and rankings on edmunds.com and msn.com.
Or experts in the field that would gladly tell you it's not a bunch of hog wash or overstated.
As far as incentives go.. Once again. In my region Honda dealers are offering 0% financing along with 2.9, 3.9 ect.. No cash back however. AND CRV's cost more than comparable Escapes.
You also have to wonder, if the Escape is such a terrible, unreliable vehicle don't you think sales would be flat at best? or even go down? Trend is up folks, CRV sales are DOWN....
Scape, you're forgetting the all important fleet sales and incentives!
None of us really own Escapes, we just rent them.
"Not true. Research results are facts. Also, they are done under controlled conditions. The problem is in attempting to relate those facts to situations where the control variables are not prescribed and other variables exist."
The results of the studies are facts of the studies themselves. They aren't necessarily the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Use them as guides or starting points when making a decision.
Research results have been overturned before.
Do you really think incentives don't play a large part? Scape is all giddy that the Escape costs less than a CR-V. Of course the MSRP is much higher but, they couldn't sell them like the CR-V was selling so, they pumped them up with incentives. Don't you think it's a little more than coincidence that the Escape starts to sell better than the CR-V only after incentives are announced on it?
Here's an article about Michigan's fleet sales.
http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/michigan/index.ssf?/base/news-2/10- 54735166242160.xml
Michigan alone leases almost 10,000 vehicles. That's the state, not local municipalities. Just for arguments sake let's say it averages to 5,000 vehicles per state, that's 250,000 vehicles. And I guarantee you, none of them are Honda or Toyota. Then add corporate fleet sales to the mix.
Scape here's a little read on Honda's disdain for dealer blow out ads-
http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=5467
CR-V sales for May were up. Its market share is also being affected by the Element.
http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=15498&ma- ke_id=trust
Escape sales broke a May record for the model. Considering you can buy a larger more powerful SUV for about the same price off of the same lot, that's not bad either.
"Do you really think incentives don't play a large part?"
Not for the Escape and most other models. We know that it does for the Taurus and I'd go as far as to say it helps the Foucs' numbers too. Both of those models are quite abundant on rental lots. SUV's aren't. Why? Because people ARE buying them off of the lots. So why sell them to rental fleets?
Fleet sales probably fluctuate too. They don't replace the vehicles every year with a new one. For example, if you are one of the lucky Government employees who gets to drive the "company" car you're not going to get the keys to a brand new Stratus every year. They do maintain them and keep them for a few years.
So, to get to your example, if Dodge sells 10,000 Stratii to the state of Michigan this year, chances are they won't sell the same amount the next. It will then be some other state's turn to buy 10,000 and Michigan will hold steady with 10,000 one-year-olds.
That qualification was not contained in the original posting.
tidester, host
There is a reason Ford put up the incentives.
Here's a company that rates vehicles in a unique fashion. (better than J.D. Power in my opinion.)
http://www.vision-inc.com/
Check out their "Total Quality Awards". Goto - Research - Automotive - Top Quality - TQA Winners.
I like the fact they don't rate a cup holder on par with a bad tranny. I don't like the fact they let the consumer comment on safety. And I don't think "thoughtfulness" and "dealership experience" should mean much when it comes to quality as it relates to an automobile. But they do provide another tool to use when looking to buy.
You spout numbers like 10,000 and 5,000, but for sure those are not all Escapes. The report you cite doesn't indicate that any of the vehicles are Escapes or even Fords for that matter..
How do you know that fleet buyers don't buy Honda or Toyota. According to someone else here, they claim their company uses Honda's.
They rate the Honda CRV very high, but behind the Hyundai, However they did not rate the Escape as a bad or unreliable vehicle as it was also above the average.
btw, it appears that this TQI number also is affected by the owners 'emotions and perceptions' rather just facts normally associated with true product quality.
I believe that CR reports are as much affected by these buyer 'perceptions/emotions', but CR does not seem to admit this is a factor in the numbers they gather..
I agree, and I agree with bess' comment on how the other groups allow owners to let emotions in too. I just found out the other day that some vehicles actually do worse on the CR and JD studies because they have fewer cup holders than a competing model. Why on earth would they list something like that as being a "problem"?
It's still not fact, but it seems to be a little closer. They seem to have found a way to fine tune the work of CR and JD in some ways. I didn't see their data collection methods anywhere. Do they have them on the site?
"Then why would they even offer incentives on it? If incentives aren't doing anything, drop them and make more cash."
Part of that reason is the CR-V, I don't think I've ever disagreed with that. But, an even bigger part of the reason is the Liberty. Both have very low incentives when compared to other models, but the Liberty has been putting all the others to shame in terms of sales.
The CR-V is definitely being watched closely by Ford. However, the Liberty is the real big bright dot on the radar right now and has been for the past year or so.
GM is also another reason. If Ford can't sell you an Explorer, they don't want you walking next door to the Chevy dealer to buy a TrailBlazer. They'd rather you looked at the Escape as an alternative. Lowering the price only helps that cause.
Besides, you can buy a CR-V for less than sticker (at least around here you can). They only advertise these prices in the Sunday paper so I can't show them to you, but they do exist. The Sunday before Memorial Day, which is a big day for vehicle sales, CR-V's were going for about $500 over invoice with 3.9%(might have been 4.9%) financing for 60 months. If you do the math, that's about $1000 off in addition to special financing.
I have not checked lately, but those deals may not be quite as sweet right now, but deals are still there to be had nonetheless.
Heck, Detroit doesn't even have street cars anyomore. GM started making busses and the city (in order to keep GM happy) got rid of our street cars. They can now be found (still running strong) in Mexico City.
I don't think there are many Escapes in fleets. (In comparison to say a Taurus.) Although I'm sure you can rent them in most cities. And I doubt you can rent a CR-V.
I'll give fleet sales a rest.
CR rates reliability based on fact. Owners are asked what (if anything) has failed on their vehicles. That's how they rate tranny, electrical, engine, braking system, and other problems. Those are facts. They then take those facts and make a prediction. That's why they call it predicted reliability. Not a guarantee. I doubt people take the survey and purposely deny problems to help a brand image. Seems to me if someone bought a Honda thinking it was great and it failed they'd be pretty annoyed and let it be known.
Each survey is based on a given time. Typically that means the last year. The survey I took covered any problems that happened between April, 2002 and April 2003. So if I had a problem in 2001, it was not reported on this most recent survey. Ergo, the Escape's early recalls would not count in the most recent publication.
JD Powers uses a different methodology asking for all problems (cosmetic, costly, or catastrophic). However, the survey is based only on the first 90 days of ownership.
Strategic Vision is not a quality or reliability award. Their methodology most closely matches the "initial happiness" award that Ivcvi was joking about. It takes the least scientific approach, but it's an interesting footnote.
And cupholders do fall under "ergonomics" so that's a valid "quality" survey item, imho. I'd be more likely to take points off for blocked radio or HVAC controls myself though.
Steve, Host
IMO, inital quality isn't about ergonomics. It's about quality. If you go to the store and buy a pair of shoes and they don't fit, the manufacturer isn't to blame. Ergonomics should be worked out in a test drive. If it doesn't fit, don't buy it.
The survey becomes a further joke when the Hummer comes in last place. Not because I like the Hummer (I don't). But, because the major reason it's on the bottom is fuel economy! What in the world made these people think it would get good fuel economy? Look! A rolling shoe box! I bet that's great on gas!
Hummer buyers apparently were disappointed because the Hummer doesn't get an EPA estimate and many assumed the mpg would be similar to an Explorer.
I agree with your test drive point, but sometimes stuff doesn't show up on your radar until after a few hours behind the wheel (or on your feet). GM's overnight test drive policy sounds like a good trend.
Steve, Host
I agree, the overnight test drive is a really cool idea. As long as you are producing a product people won't grow to hate.
I don't care how it's put, an owner of a Hummer complaining about fuel economy is just asinine.
Is that really true?! The H2 is basically a Chevy Silverado in disguise. How would one think it could even come close to matching the MPG of an Explorer?
"The CR survey asks for "serious" problems. It spells out what "serious" means. Their definition goes something like, "Any problems that have caused significant monetary expense. Or anything that required significant time in the shop""
That's still too vague to be accurate. For example, a lot of Escapes (ours included) had a problem with the rear wiper not clearing all of the glass. It turns out that the spring in the wiper arm loses it's ability to apply pressure when it gets too dirty. Clearly a design flaw.
I know ours, and many others', weren't fixed the first time which would easily lower the Escape's rating in CR due to the extra time spent in the shop waiting for repair.
The point is, CR still includes stupid annoyances like what was described above when rating reliability. The rear wiper has nothing to do with reliability because you really don't need it. Sure it was a problem which required some time in the shop, but it wasn't anything which caused the truck not to start up in the morning.
I think things like this are reflected better in JD's study. CR (maybe they do) needs to define reliability for us.
If your windshield washer was over-shooting the windshield on your Honda, and it took the service dept. a couple of tries to fix it, would the vehicle then be unreliable?
h1vc "Hummer H2" May 9, 2003 3:05pm
Steve, Host
Anyway, CR doesn't say a vehicle will definately be unreliable, they predict it will be unreliable. And, even then, they judge the reliablity as compared to other vehicles within classes. They generally don't say it won't be a good car, they say it won't be the best choice if you are concerned with reliability.
Just because a vehicle starts and can get you to the office, doesn't mean it is reliable. I could run on three cylinders for years. I could drive a car for decades with peeling paint, no rear brakes, and a moonroof that never opened.
If you are willing to live with that sort of quality, and still consider the car reliable, then more power to you. I'm of the opinion that if I pay for a rear wiper, it had better work!
Sure it does. Especially when you rely on it to get you to the office every day.
If you rely on the wiper to clean the glass every day, then you have a problem.
I guess it depends on what you are relying on.
That's another reason why CR and JD aren't telling the whole story. People buy vehicles for different reasons and rely on different parts. I'm guessing that the people who subscribe to CR, and therefore fill out the surveys, aren't too tolerant of any kind of problems. Big or small. That's why they read that rag in the first place. JD is allowing people to complain about cup holders and maybe even carpet pile.
Who cares? Why don't they just ask if you like it and/or would you recommend it to someone else? Leave out all of the other crap.
"the Explorer wouldn't be deemed unreliable for that one occurance."
That was the Escape.
Why not? If 100 people were surveyed and all 100 of them had the wiper problem, that would add up to 100 problems per 100 copies. Add a rattle or two and a few complaints about cup holders and all of a sudden the Escape looks like an unreliable hunk of tin. For no good reason.
I'm sure there were other more serious things which factored into the Escape's lower rating, but those little unimportant things add up too.
"If you are willing to live with that sort of quality, and still consider the car reliable, then more power to you. I'm of the opinion that if I pay for a rear wiper, it had better work!"
That's what warranties are for.
When the driver's side power window stops going up and down on your 4 year old Civic, that's a bigger problem.
The data provided by CR and JDP compare the vehicles against each other and the industry average. They do not compare against any specific person's expectations.
"That's what warranties are for."
I like cars. I'm not a big fan of service centers. Problems with my car are an interruption to my regularly scheduled program whether I have to pay for them or not. This is one reason why I like the CR survey. Their criteria includes both time and money.
"Thats what warranties are for"
I had mentioned before, which would you be happy with. A car that has a history of not needing repairs over time, but does not have a larger warranty. Or a car that keeps needing repairs and keeps strading my wife and kids, but hey who cares, I can get it fixed for free on monday with my nice big warranty.
Why doesn't Ford just come out and say "please pay more for this one and we will see you soon because it will not all work".
Yes, absolutly, a car that starts in the morning and gets me to work is considered reliable. No question. But aren't they all supposed to do that anyway?.....You act as though you are happy or surprised it does it.
If a sales guy sells me on all the nice cushy extras, and I pay for them (rear wipers are not free) they better as hell work. That kills me. I have people all day and hear stories all day on here of how people wont a single 20.00 bill more than invoice or whatever, etc, etc. Then you get the car home and parts don't work but that OK ???????????? Are you kidding??????
Next time just buy the stripped version with crank windows and no A/C. This way you wont be paying for anything extra right from the beginning.
"If 100 people were surveyed and all 100 of them had the wiper problem, that would add up to 100 problems per 100 copies. "
YOUR DAMN RIGHT....If I pay for something, especially if it's more than the better competition, it better as hell all work when I want it to.
If 100 people report something as little as that on a Escape and not as many reports at all on the CRV......what does that tell YOU. I sure know what it tells me.
No, they wouldn't say it's unreliable. They would say it is less reliable than others in it's class if they didn't suffer from the same number of problems.
If you look in a CR buying guide, it lists a large number of potential problems. If one of the things that consistently fails on a vehicle is the electrical system, and you deem this not much of a problem, then ignore it.
Anyway, its predicted reliability based upon actual occurrences.
Sorry about your Civic, it was obviously a bad one. I still bet you could sell it for alot more than any other car your wife may have considered (in the Civic's class).
SellinHonda:
Again you are implying that Fords are 'unreliable' by repeatedly leaving folks stranded on the side of the road etc.. The CR and JDP questions do not make this distinction.
I've also seen evidence where some Honda owners seem to 'overlook' problems as 'normal' whereas Ford owners will admit if they have a minor problem.
No one acted 'happy or suprised' that our Fords start up and get us to our jobs every day. It is you that continue to spread mis-information that implies that Fords constantly break down.
Everything you write has some extra 'spin' on it.
For example your quote:
"If I pay for something, especially if it's more than the better competition"
Wasn't it you that said the Escapes cost than the CRV and that this is the only reason they keep up in sales? But here your say they pay more.
You also mentioned the 'big fat' warranty. Both the Ford and Honda have the same warranty coverage (3/36).
And your last quote:
"If 100 people report something as little as that on a Escape and not as many reports at all on the CRV......what does that tell YOU. I sure know what it tells me."
Could it be that Honda owners don't report their minor flaws as 'problems'? Or are there other factors that could explain the reports or experiences.
The one fact is Honda has lost sales in this vehicle category due to the Escape/Tribute, Liberty and VUE.
The fact is Ford is on the mend and in the next 5-8 years is going to release some outstanding vehicles.
I am responding (if you would read everyones post) to Baggs posts saying that he apparently didn't care if parts on his beloved car broke or not, he could get it fixed for free with his warranty. My point is, I want a car that works....PERIOD. Not one that I know I can get fixed for free. REPEAT...I want one that works not one that I have to take to get fixed weather it is for free or not.....
I personaly don't know anyone that wants to pay 20k-25k on a vehicle and not care if the certain parts work or not. I believe (maybe it's my OPINION) but I thin most people want more out of a 25K car than just to start in the morning.
I am not speading "mis-information". I am just here responding. once again, if you don't like car salesman and you don't like us, too bad. But give up the "I hate car salesman crap" it's getting old.
NO,....It was not me that said Escapes cost more so thats why they keep up in sales....isn't that a contradiction anyway.....I said the only reason they may keep up is for the incentives placed on them such as low financing and rebates. But the Escape of course does not need any incentives like that to compete......right?
......then once again, the infamous question. So good???why the incentives?
And as reporting a problem. I kinda don't think that all Honda owners are all in this big conspiracy that any problems are not told out loud. I don't think that they all have decided together not to mention any problems while the other entire car world reports everything. I don't care if it is a Honda or a Ford. If it breaks....report it. If less people over the YEARS have reported more problems with a Ford than with a Honda....don't blame me.
If I buy a Honda myself and it breaks, trust me I will be the first to [non-permissible content removed]. But if it doesn't, don't blame me or anyone else. If the people that own your vehicle report problems as well as they should, don't blame them either....
There is no "spin" on anything. I just talk about reality.
You can't handle it....too bad.
Not because Mom had a good one. Because you know whats better. If it is a Ford...so be it. If it is a Toyota...so be it. If it is a Kia...so be it.
If I need a Truck, as I mentioned, I am buying A F-series Ford....no question. But If I have owned nothing but Ford trucks my whole life and I ned now need a car. I am going to broaden my horizon and look and whats best in that type.
maybe it's me....(as I shake my head)....maybe it's me