"Most hybrids I've seen have *terrible* resale. Like Insights for only $8000. HCH's for onyl $12,000"
There's plenty of conventional cars that dramatically loose value. "Insights" is a plural.
How many, and where can I pick up a used Insight for $8,000? I know of one for around $9K but that's pretty good, seeing it's driven almost 100K miles. My 'ol Dodge with 160K miles sold for $350 to a needing family. I paid $28K for my Grand Caravan 2 years ago, under 50Kmiles and blue book now shows a value of about $15K.
BTW, Civics are known for holding good resale value.
"If you can get great 44 mpg fuel economy without a battery, then hybrids should NOT be encouraged"
You're right. Since some might get 44MPG in an old technology car then we should abandon any new technology because it has a (Recycleable) battery.
We should not encourage R&D.
"Edmund's? Big whoop!"
Many people check out Edmunds as part of their buying research.
"44 mpg is AWESOME"
If you can possibly get 44MPG in an LX that is good MPG, but pales in the shadows of the 60, 80, 100MPG hybrid cars. (HCH, Prius, Insight)
You keep on comparing HCH to an LX.
How many times do we need to beat this into the ground?
Automakers sell cars at different trim levels DX isn't an LX which isn't an EX which isn't an HCH. We've explained in great detail how HCH has many important features not available on other Civic models and even listed them. We've also explained that HCH isn't as thrifty as a $10K econo car. I've even researced a list of models to choose from.
Apparently there will always be someone who doesn't understand this, and always point out that a 2-classed down model is cheaper.
"If you can get great 44 mpg fuel economy without a battery, then hybrids should NOT be encouraged"
.
"You're right. Since some might get 44MPG in an old technology car then we should abandon any new technology because it has a (Recycleable) battery. "
.
My POINT, which you conveniently ignored, is this:
- If you can have an 85hp Civic Hybrid *minus the battery* and still get 50 mpg highway..... why should Honda and/or the consumer spend an extra $2000 for a battery/motor/etcetera?
"C&D mag tested a Honda Civic hybrid in one mountain range, and exhausted the battery pack after a mile's upward driving."
.
That is called "stupidity". It's obvious what they did: Drove the car without shifting to lower gears, until they emptied the battery. S-t-u-p-i-d
In contrast, I drove my Insight over the Colorado Rockies on U.S. 40 (steeeeeeep grades), in 3rd gear, and my battery was still near-full at the top! When you drive a hybrid, you have to use that thing in your head called a "brain". If you're climbing a mountain, and you're emptying the battery, shift to a lower gear.
If you can have an 85hp Civic Hybrid *minus the battery* and still get 50 mpg highway..... why should Honda and/or the consumer spend an extra $2000 for a battery/motor/etcetera?
First issue: "IF"
Second issue: There is more to driving than just highway.
If you're poor and have to save $2000 choosing a non-hybrid 85hp 50mpg Civic, you won't care about the 15 second 0-60 time. You have more important things to worry about.
If one cannot spend as much, the current option from Honda lineup would be Civic DX with manual transmission. Perhaps in the future when Fit/Jazz is available.
Even if an average HCH gets 50 MPG and Civic-EX gets 35 MPG. Thats 3,000 gallons for HCH and 4,300 gallons for Civic-EX over 150,000 miles and @ 1.8 / gallon, its $ 2,340 for that extra
1300 gallons.
Your spread is a little optimistic. Lets say the Civic EX averages 34mpg (which is pessimistic, I avg 38mpg with my 03 Civic EX, and can get as high as 42mpg if I drive gently and at the speed limit), and the Civic Hybrid 40mpg.
Not to mention the labor costs for any hybrid-related diagnosis and repair.
I'm sure prices are similar for the Civic.
You definitely get the Return on Investment + the 550 mile range means there is no need to pull over to the gas station frequently and waste a few miles.
After all there are so many people who buy an SUV without ever carrying 2-3 tons (for which SUV's are built) and they spend an extra $ 2000 - 3000 for the fuel. And all these critics never talk a word against them.
BTW, last year the sales of nearly 30 SUV's have declined because of rising gas prices.
Meanwhile enjoy your HCH and count the faster ROI as gas prices increase
According to www.evworld.com, HCH gets 44 MPG and if EPA says 48 and average is 44, then for Civic-EX the average may be 30. So its still 14 MPG difference and you may almost get the ROI.
The website you posted says that Insight gets 45 MPG. I think they are driving these vehicle off-road for testing the mileage.
390,000 miles and the cumulative average fuel economy for the Insights HEVs is 45.1 miles per gallon. "
The whole concept of this program is to PROMOTE Hydrogen powered vehicles and DEMOTE Hybrid vehicles.
"As for $ 15,000 extra for Toyota Prius". I dont know where you got that figure. If it costs so much extra, then Toyota will not be selling that vehicle for $ 21 K and they are planning to sell 180,000 units this year.
Toyots is a Profit based company and not a Charity. Better correct your figures before posting.
Toyots is a Profit based company and not a Charity. Better correct your figures before posting
It is pretty common knowledge that all the parts in a car would cost you 2-3 times more than the car does originally. They make a gigantic profit on spare parts. That is probably Toyota and Honda's way of getting back the R&D they spent on the hybrids.
My average is 43.5, and I rarely drive below 70 on the freeway.
"For that extra $1400 you get a much better performing car."
I have the CVT. The difference in performance between my car and a co-worker's LX with auto is noticeable. Mine is faster in normal acceleration, and a lot smoother and quieter. He might be quicker 0-60, but I doubt it.
The CVT alone makes a lot of the difference, but the overall low RPM that the CVT runs, with the IMA available for seamless low end power, makes the HCH a much nicer car to drive around town.
The LX, like most little automatics, sounds like it is working way too hard accelerating from a stop.
Jetta TDI starts at $21K. If the person can't afford $20K Civic Hybrid, he/she couldn't afford the Jetta.
A better option from affordability point of view would be go used! Makes more sense to improve economics by reducing depreciation. Better yet, get a used Insight. Forget about 40 mpg, the poor person could certainly afford to have 50-60 mpg car.
I got my HCH "used" with 4,823 miles on it, and I saved about $2,564 off the original sticker price, and that's after you include my "upcharge" for getting the "Honda Certified" used car designation.
So if used is a good deal, that must mean that resale isn't that good. Right?
If you're cash challenged, the best use of your money is probably on a new $11k Hyundai Elantra. In about 20 years you'll have broke even with the $20k HCH. Or think of it this way: You can buy almost two Elantras for the the price of a HCH, admittedly without ABS, but you do get folding side mirrors and you don't have to spend $500 on a new timing belt/water pump at 100k miles like you do on the HCH. I'm glad the 06 Civics are following everyone else and finally switching to timing chains.
Used cars of ANY BRAND or type are better deals than new because ALL CARS depreciate VERY QUICKLY in the first year. (there is a thread for Hybrid resales, so I will not get into that here.)
Anyone who believes buying two $10K cars instead of one $20K car is a better deal should do the math. You will find that it is INDEED not a better deal, ESPECIALLY when you consider resale values of a Civic versus an Elantra ! (silly choice of comparisons, a brand that holds it's value as well as any versus a car which barely holds any value at all)
I wont get into all the math, but ask me if you want proof that the two cars/one car model is a bad financial idea.
quote misterme-"BTW, Has anyone heard any statistics on the new, redesigned HCH for 2006? I've heard both performance and MPG has been boosted. I know many people like sunroofs. Wonder if that will be offered?"-end quote
The Chicago Auto Show starting Feb 11th will be the first public showing of the new 2006 Civic line.
All the journalists and attendees will have all the scoop for us, all the specs, etc. Watch these boards for info after the end of next week !!
Those spy shots have been around for months; they depict the 5 door hatch, which I would love to see become available again in the USA, but which is most certainly not on the current menu.
There was a quote floating around from Honda USA to the effect that they were going to offer all of the body styles in the US this time around, including the 5 door. I'll believe when I see it. This is my favorite iteration of the car.
You should have a big grin on your face. That should make your year old Civic worth a lot more. That is about an ugly looking car. It has that "stink bug" look that so many asian cars are going to.
We recently purchased a 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid. As anybody considering that specific model car, our single most important consideration for the purchase was the published fuel efficiency of 47 to 48MPG. Our Hybrid has not turned out to be the almost 50MPG it is supposed to be, we average about 38 to 39MPG. I do not think any consumer or reasonable person would accept this as a reasonable variation. Please understand that I am reasonable and I never expect the published mileage – I had reasonable expectations in the range of 45MPG, which was what the dealer told me I could realistically expect. The dealer was Showcase Honda of Phoenix, Arizona. My experience with the dealer and Honda Corp. thus far has been entirely negative. In my opinion, both are less than honest and don’t care one bit about the customer once the sale has been made. Had the Honda dealer given accurate, complete and honest answers for our pre-sales questions, we never would have bought the Hybrid. We have repeatedly contacted the dealer and Honda Corp.
I didn't read that the 2006 Civic was actually going to be at the car show, just that it's going to be redesigned. Highly doubtful they would put a car on display many months before it's introduction. I sure hope someone posts here if it's for real.
Also, I learned long ago to take spy photos with a grain of salt. The finished product is usually much different.
You are absolutely right that there are much simpler ways to improve mileage. Electrical hybrid designs are way to complex, marginal and potentially very expensive in reliability and maintenance.
Replacement costs for electronic modules from Honda and Toyota are in the range of $1000-$3000. Their prices are ridiculous, even higher than military/avionics-grade electronics thanks to their monopoly and absence of any competition from after market MFR.
The battery will gradually wear down its charge holding capacity in 3 years. The Prius battery is now $5000. That's a very big item for a car.
Airlines are constantly swap in and out electronic modules everyday to keep their planes flying. Their modules are used in benign cockpit environment, unlike the extremely hot/cold, wet, with high vibration and shocks like under the hoods of cars.
Spares and replacement parts for aircraft MFRS, like Boeing and Airbus, bring in rough 50% of the revenue and about 75% in net profit. I think hybrid consumers are being screwed by hybrid MFRS for the high cost of future replacement parts.
I would love a diesel car that can deliver 70 +MPH. It would be reliable, maintenance-free and worry free for 200K miles.
"My commute is about 22 miles hill country road, 22 freeway and a couple of heavy Atlanta city traffic. I've had my HCH for 12 months now and I still get excited almost every time I drive.
Especially today because I just broke my single trip commute MPG record, set last October. My last record was 68.3MPG, and today I parked with 69.8MPG over 46 miles. The trip included a fuel stop, and later a Blimpie sandwitch stop. Just couldn't push it over the 70 hump. Please let me say that it was one of the most exciting driving experience I've had yet, and I'm no less exited as the day it rolled off the lot."
And this:
"My current tank is showing 67plus on the display with over a hundred miles driven. It is about to go in the toilet as there is a winter storm heading our way but I'm expecting entire tanks in the 70ies come summer."
This is not really a place for this - I can find 10 people who LOVE their MPG to every one person that will say they are not getting what they expected.
I really laughed at your post #1142 about HCH's high mileage. Good job. Keep it up.
I dont know where this guy 'gagrice' pickups
someone who gets a low mileage in a Hybrid.
According to him, a suburban gets 17 MPG and
HCH gets 33 MPG and he wants us to believe it. Huh.
Anyway The sales of Sub has crashed by more than
30 % last year. According to stats in www.autonews.com
1,064 Subs were produced so far this year against 5,437 in same period last year. I doubt whether it will be there for next year. 2 Years ago, one guy was bragging that Hummer outsold Hybrids. Now he has disappeared in an AVALANCHE of HYBRID SALES.
If Civic-2006 comes in 5 door version and costs < 21K, then would give a tough competition to Prius. Then Toyota has to remove all those packages and sell at the base price. However with increasing gas prices, both will sell.
HCH gets 33 MPG and he wants us to believe it. Huh.
Not sure what would give you that idea. I have stated that my Suburban gets the EPA mileage 14/18. Many owners of hybrids including the HCH do not get EPA estimates. I also would consider the Suburban a niche vehicle that only sold 119k last year. Of course that was more than all 5 hybrids sold together. Of course when you add the GMC version of the Suburban it sold over 200k. I doubt you ever see 200k hybrids sold in one year.
If EPA says 48 - 51 MPG and if owners get 43-47, that is still good.
"Suburban a niche vehicle that only sold 119k last year"
Can you show me the link. According to www.autonews.com, they produced only 38,971 in 2004 against 65,945 in 2003. How come they were able to sell 119K. If you need I will send that pdf file to you.
As for hybrids they sold 140,000 Worldwide last year and you will see it hitting probably 300 K this year.
Well, having looked at the SI concept, and read the press release three times, it's evident that any hope for either the 5-door or 3-door hatchbacks in our market is now snuffed out. Sedans only for us, as usual...[they can call it a coupe if they want, but it's just a two-door sedan, exactly like the current "coupe"]. New drivetrains of course, and we can hope for more truly useful room in the interiors and trunk, but even the SI in our market is just a 2-door sedan with a big wing and a lot of hp. The hybrid will no doubt make some more tech advances, and it might actually recover some of the lost trunk space this time around, but holding out any hope for the hatchbacks is apparently wasted energy.
Your speculation on the sale of hybrids for 2005 is pretty optimistic. I doubt the manufacturers share your enthusiasm. Honda had a hard time unloading 20k HCH cars last year and are not getting off to a blazing start with the HAH. The Insight is not selling at all with the CVT and you have to order the MT Insight to get one. The Prius is a good seller while it is in big demand. There are parts of the country where they are on the lots waiting for buyers. If you notice Honda & Ford include their hybrids with the non hybrid models. Makes it a little harder to get the true sales figures.
Honda sold 25K HCH with a set target of 20K units. What are you talking about? As for Accord Hybrid, first of all, this is not a thread to discuss it, and if you insist, how many HAH do you think Honda produced versus sold (in short, the inventory turn around) in less than two months (that HAH has been offered in the market)? If you don’t have the numbers, don’t quote “struggle”. It doesn’t make sense.
Thought I'd just write this in in case someone else was wondering if they should change the oil themselves or not. It's a pretty straight forward procedure. I've got a 2005 CVT with 4800 mi.on it and changed the oil this A.M. The instructions in the manual that came with the car are clear. The only thing different for me was I had to buy ramps first because the car is too low to crawl under. No big deal 23 bucks at Walmart.There are 9 clips holding a cover onto the chassis easily removed by prying each plastic clip off with a screwdriver. Once this cover is off, the filter and drain bolt are easily visible. I removed the filter and let it drain, then the 17mm bolt from the pan. After it drained I installed the new filter and the bolt with a new metal washer which I bought OEM from dealer. I hand tightened the filter then an extra half turn. The bolt was supposed to be 29 ft. lbs. but I don't have a torque wrench and just put it on tight. I was very cautious this being the first time but both seemed to go on fine. I had read about stripping bolts etc. I used 0-20 oil (not synthetic)also purchased from dealer, 3.5 quarts including filter. Total cost of $29.00 not counting ramps. Dealer charge would have been $49.00. It seemed worth it just to save the time and knowing what exactly was done. the oil was very dark when drained, I wonder if I should have done it at 3000? Next time I'll probably put synthetic in. So thats it. I was looking for this kind of description before I did mine so I hope its useful.
Congrat's on your first oil change. Next time, for the same money you can do Mobil 1. Pepboys has a calendar for a $1, inside is a coupon for "buy 3, get 3 free" for mobil 1. This way a 6 pack of Mobil 1 would cost you $10, plus the filter and washer at the dealer. I keep mobil 1 for 5000 miles.
Sign up at Mobil 1 rewards and for every 6 pack you buy, you get $5, which makes Mobil 1 oil as inexpensive as regular dyno oil, while giving you better protection at start up and better thermal breakdown resistivity.
Comments
There's plenty of conventional cars that dramatically loose value. "Insights" is a plural.
How many, and where can I pick up a used Insight for $8,000? I know of one for around $9K but that's pretty good, seeing it's driven almost 100K miles. My 'ol Dodge with 160K miles sold for $350 to a needing family. I paid $28K for my Grand Caravan 2 years ago, under 50Kmiles and blue book now shows a value of about $15K.
BTW, Civics are known for holding good resale value.
"If you can get great 44 mpg fuel economy without a battery, then hybrids should NOT be encouraged"
You're right. Since some might get 44MPG in an old technology car then we should abandon any new technology because it has a (Recycleable) battery.
We should not encourage R&D.
"Edmund's? Big whoop!"
Many people check out Edmunds as part of their buying research.
"44 mpg is AWESOME"
If you can possibly get 44MPG in an LX that is good MPG, but pales in the shadows of the 60, 80, 100MPG hybrid cars. (HCH, Prius, Insight)
You keep on comparing HCH to an LX.
How many times do we need to beat this into the ground?
Automakers sell cars at different trim levels DX isn't an LX which isn't an EX which isn't an HCH. We've explained in great detail how HCH has many important features not available on other Civic models and even listed them. We've also explained that HCH isn't as thrifty as a $10K econo car. I've even researced a list of models to choose from.
Apparently there will always be someone who doesn't understand this, and always point out that a 2-classed down model is cheaper.
.
"You're right. Since some might get 44MPG in an old technology car then we should abandon any new technology because it has a (Recycleable) battery. "
.
My POINT, which you conveniently ignored, is this:
- If you can have an 85hp Civic Hybrid *minus the battery* and still get 50 mpg highway..... why should Honda and/or the consumer spend an extra $2000 for a battery/motor/etcetera?
troy
.
That is called "stupidity". It's obvious what they did: Drove the car without shifting to lower gears, until they emptied the battery. S-t-u-p-i-d
In contrast, I drove my Insight over the Colorado Rockies on U.S. 40 (steeeeeeep grades), in 3rd gear, and my battery was still near-full at the top! When you drive a hybrid, you have to use that thing in your head called a "brain". If you're climbing a mountain, and you're emptying the battery, shift to a lower gear.
To Car & Driver - DUH.
troy
First issue: "IF"
Second issue: There is more to driving than just highway.
I don't think there is much of a market anymore for such an underpowered car.
Drop an 85hp engine in today's Civic or Corolla and we're back to about 18-25 on the zero - 60.
Yes you will get the MPG and no we're not running any races but people today want at least reasonable acceleration.
Now put that engine in a Yugo and you might have something. Problem is that the car is made so light that it's flimsy and can be dangerous.
You can't drop in your 85hp engine in today's fully loaded 5 passenger car and get the MPG and emissions.
troy
The Echo is not half the car of the Civic.
The Echo is a low end, low tide, barely hwy capable budget car.
The Civic is considered by most people the nicest compact in the class.
Wonderful piece of response.
Even if an average HCH gets 50 MPG and Civic-EX gets 35 MPG. Thats 3,000 gallons for HCH and 4,300 gallons for Civic-EX over 150,000 miles and @ 1.8 / gallon, its $ 2,340 for that extra
1300 gallons.
Your spread is a little optimistic. Lets say the Civic EX averages 34mpg (which is pessimistic, I avg 38mpg with my 03 Civic EX, and can get as high as 42mpg if I drive gently and at the speed limit), and the Civic Hybrid 40mpg.
http://avt.inel.gov/hcfart.html
The Dept. of Energy has been testing a fleet of Civic Hybrids, and they have achieved an average 38 mpg over a cumulative 350,000 miles.
At 34 & 40 mpg figures, you are looking at a difference of about $1,400 in increased gas costs for the Civic EX.
For that extra $1400 you get a much better performing car. Also, you don't have the liability of all that hybrid stuff.
For the Prius, there are $15,000 worth of parts related to the hybrid system alone:
$5,153.24 for the hybrid electric motor/generator
$4,920.39 for replacement battery
$668 for "relay assy, hybrid vehicle"
$1,250 for "computer, battery
$970 for "computer, hybrid control"
Plus many more. Check out the parts price sheets for the Prius:
http://ozgrl.com/images/engine9.gif
http://ozgrl.com/images/rearbo1.gif
http://ozgrl.com/images/interi7.gif
Not to mention the labor costs for any hybrid-related diagnosis and repair.
I'm sure prices are similar for the Civic.
You definitely get the Return on Investment + the 550 mile range means there is no need to pull over to the gas station frequently and waste a few miles.
After all there are so many people who buy an SUV without ever carrying 2-3 tons (for which SUV's are built) and they spend an extra $ 2000 - 3000 for the fuel. And all these critics never talk a word against them.
BTW, last year the sales of nearly 30 SUV's have declined because of rising gas prices.
Meanwhile enjoy your HCH and count the faster ROI as gas prices increase
Hybrids will never pay for themselves.
Not really if you consider I average 29 mpg in my Civic EX.
Hybrids will never pay for themselves
What does?
As a famous man or woman or two has uttered, "Never Say Never" my friend. !!!
In my own case, I had a choice between a used, loaded 2004 EX and a used, loaded Hybrid.
The difference in cost ( which I negotiated for each car on the lot that night I bought the hybrid) between the two cars was a mere $1524.
I will recoup that $1524 before the third year is up, in combined fuel and tax savings.
No matter what, because I bought the 100K warranty.
The website you posted says that Insight gets 45 MPG. I think they are driving these vehicle off-road for testing the mileage.
"http://avt.inel.gov/hifart.html
The six Insight HEVs have been driven a total of
390,000 miles and the cumulative average fuel economy for the Insights HEVs is 45.1 miles per gallon. "
The whole concept of this program is to PROMOTE Hydrogen powered vehicles and DEMOTE Hybrid vehicles.
"As for $ 15,000 extra for Toyota Prius". I dont know where you got that figure. If it costs so much extra, then Toyota will not be selling that vehicle for $ 21 K and they are planning to sell 180,000 units this year.
Toyots is a Profit based company and not a Charity. Better correct your figures before posting.
"The Dept. of Energy has been testing a fleet of Civic Hybrids, and they have achieved an average 38 mpg over a cumulative 350,000 miles."
And since when has government employees driven anything like they would their own vehicles, let alone for efficiency?
I've driven fleet vehicles before with unlimited fuel too.
It was pointless to keep track of the MPG because I didn't care.
I'll bet my employer knew why all his vehicles got 40% less than thier EPA estimates.
greenhybrid has a database of all hybrid models with almost 3 million miles logged.
HCH averages 47 over 66 real, live owners who drive them. A couple are hypermilers like myself, most are not.
Funny you post that today because I've just beat my current record on my commute to work today.
Over 46 miles my HCH burned 69.8MPG.
It was one of the most exiting driving experience I've had yet.
Early December my tank averages have dropped from over 60 way, way down to about 58MPG.
The same database shows 24 Insight drivers are averaging 63MPG.
" For the Prius, there are $15,000 worth of parts related to the hybrid system alone"
Interesting. Isn't there $21-26K worth of parts related to the hybrid system?
Isn't the whole Prius reated to the hybrid system, from the body shape, to how you start it, to the motors, etc?
That pretty much proves my point that the hybrids do not hold their value as well as the non hybrid.
It is pretty common knowledge that all the parts in a car would cost you 2-3 times more than the car does originally. They make a gigantic profit on spare parts. That is probably Toyota and Honda's way of getting back the R&D they spent on the hybrids.
My average is 43.5, and I rarely drive below 70 on the freeway.
"For that extra $1400 you get a much better performing car."
I have the CVT. The difference in performance between my car and a co-worker's LX with auto is noticeable. Mine is faster in normal acceleration, and a lot smoother and quieter. He might be quicker 0-60, but I doubt it.
The CVT alone makes a lot of the difference, but the overall low RPM that the CVT runs, with the IMA available for seamless low end power, makes the HCH a much nicer car to drive around town.
The LX, like most little automatics, sounds like it is working way too hard accelerating from a stop.
What advice do you give this person?
I'd tell him/her to get:
Toyota Echo
Civic HX
or Volkswagen Golf tdi
troy
A better option from affordability point of view would be go used! Makes more sense to improve economics by reducing depreciation. Better yet, get a used Insight. Forget about 40 mpg, the poor person could certainly afford to have 50-60 mpg car.
If you're cash challenged, the best use of your money is probably on a new $11k Hyundai Elantra. In about 20 years you'll have broke even with the $20k HCH. Or think of it this way: You can buy almost two Elantras for the the price of a HCH, admittedly without ABS, but you do get folding side mirrors and you don't have to spend $500 on a new timing belt/water pump at 100k miles like you do on the HCH. I'm glad the 06 Civics are following everyone else and finally switching to timing chains.
Anyone who believes buying two $10K cars instead of one $20K car is a better deal should do the math. You will find that it is INDEED not a better deal, ESPECIALLY when you consider resale values of a Civic versus an Elantra ! (silly choice of comparisons, a brand that holds it's value as well as any versus a car which barely holds any value at all)
I wont get into all the math, but ask me if you want proof that the two cars/one car model is a bad financial idea.
All of K-series engines have timing chains. Civic Si had timing chain since 2002 :-)
I'll say!
My Grand Caravan cost $28,000 in 2002. Today and 45K miles later it lists at only $16,000.
Granted this is more than a year but it does illustrate.
Toyota Echo
Civic HX
or Volkswagen Golf tdi
troy
Maintenance on the Golf will be higher, and if they are scraping by only to fuel it then the expensive emission systems would likely be neglected.
The Chicago Auto Show starting Feb 11th will be the first public showing of the new 2006 Civic line.
All the journalists and attendees will have all the scoop for us, all the specs, etc. Watch these boards for info after the end of next week !!
http://www.suntimes.com/output/auto/car-news-small31.html
http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/hybrids27e_20050127.htm
http://www.channel4.com/4car/gallery/spy-shots-2004/H/honda-civic- _page_6.html
There was a quote floating around from Honda USA to the effect that they were going to offer all of the body styles in the US this time around, including the 5 door. I'll believe when I see it. This is my favorite iteration of the car.
Ironically, my previous car was a 2002 Honda Civic Si hatchback, and everybody used to ask me "Wow, is that a hybrid?"
Now I have the HCH. Nobody asks me if it's a hybrid. Phoooey.
You should have a big grin on your face. That should make your year old Civic worth a lot more. That is about an ugly looking car. It has that "stink bug" look that so many asian cars are going to.
Also, I learned long ago to take spy photos with a grain of salt. The finished product is usually much different.
Replacement costs for electronic modules from Honda and Toyota are in the range of $1000-$3000. Their prices are ridiculous, even higher than military/avionics-grade electronics thanks to their monopoly and absence of any competition from after market MFR.
The battery will gradually wear down its charge holding capacity in 3 years. The Prius battery is now $5000. That's a very big item for a car.
Airlines are constantly swap in and out electronic modules everyday to keep their planes flying. Their modules are used in benign cockpit environment, unlike the extremely hot/cold, wet, with high vibration and shocks like under the hoods of cars.
Spares and replacement parts for aircraft MFRS, like Boeing and Airbus, bring in rough 50% of the revenue and about 75% in net profit. I think hybrid consumers are being screwed by hybrid MFRS for the high cost of future replacement parts.
I would love a diesel car that can deliver 70 +MPH. It would be reliable, maintenance-free and worry free for 200K miles.
Especially today because I just broke my single trip commute MPG record, set last October. My last record was 68.3MPG, and today I parked with 69.8MPG over 46 miles. The trip included a fuel stop, and later a Blimpie sandwitch stop. Just couldn't push it over the 70 hump. Please let me say that it was one of the most exciting driving experience I've had yet, and I'm no less exited as the day it rolled off the lot."
And this:
"My current tank is showing 67plus on the display with over a hundred miles driven. It is about to go in the toilet as there is a winter storm heading our way but I'm expecting entire tanks in the 70ies come summer."
This is not really a place for this - I can find 10 people who LOVE their MPG to every one person that will say they are not getting what they expected.
.
I think it looks similar to a New Prius. Not surprising. As cars move towards that ideal teardrop shape, they will all look like that.
troy
I really laughed at your post #1142 about HCH's high mileage. Good job. Keep it up.
I dont know where this guy 'gagrice' pickups
someone who gets a low mileage in a Hybrid.
According to him, a suburban gets 17 MPG and
HCH gets 33 MPG and he wants us to believe it. Huh.
Anyway The sales of Sub has crashed by more than
30 % last year. According to stats in www.autonews.com
1,064 Subs were produced so far this year against 5,437 in same period last year. I doubt whether it will be there for next year. 2 Years ago, one guy was bragging that Hummer outsold Hybrids. Now he has disappeared in an AVALANCHE of HYBRID SALES.
If Civic-2006 comes with a teardrop (hatchback)
style, that would be wonderful. Even Hyundai
is showing a concept car with that design.
Its easy to load big things in a 5-door vehicle
and also the back-seat passenger can grab a
soda/chips from the trunk, which cannot be done
by a passenger in a sedan.
It will be better if HCH is offered in 2,3,4,5
door versions.
HCH gets 33 MPG and he wants us to believe it. Huh.
Not sure what would give you that idea. I have stated that my Suburban gets the EPA mileage 14/18. Many owners of hybrids including the HCH do not get EPA estimates. I also would consider the Suburban a niche vehicle that only sold 119k last year. Of course that was more than all 5 hybrids sold together. Of course when you add the GMC version of the Suburban it sold over 200k. I doubt you ever see 200k hybrids sold in one year.
"Suburban a niche vehicle that only sold 119k last year"
Can you show me the link. According to www.autonews.com, they produced only 38,971 in 2004 against 65,945 in 2003. How come they were able to sell 119K. If you need I will send that pdf file to you.
As for hybrids they sold 140,000 Worldwide last year and you will see it hitting probably 300 K this year.
Estimate
Prius (180 K)
RX400h / Highlander (40 K)
Civic (30 K)
Accord (20 K)
Escape (30 K)
Does it sound good.
Sounds like autonews is missing some figures. I show 119,545 which is down from 135k 2003. However the mid-size SUVs in the GM fleet made up for it.
http://www.aicautosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsuv.asp
Your speculation on the sale of hybrids for 2005 is pretty optimistic. I doubt the manufacturers share your enthusiasm. Honda had a hard time unloading 20k HCH cars last year and are not getting off to a blazing start with the HAH. The Insight is not selling at all with the CVT and you have to order the MT Insight to get one. The Prius is a good seller while it is in big demand. There are parts of the country where they are on the lots waiting for buyers. If you notice Honda & Ford include their hybrids with the non hybrid models. Makes it a little harder to get the true sales figures.
Sign up at Mobil 1 rewards and for every 6 pack you buy, you get $5, which makes Mobil 1 oil as inexpensive as regular dyno oil, while giving you better protection at start up and better thermal breakdown resistivity.