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Comments
About the theme of your post hybriddriver:
You are assuming that everyone here can tell the difference between a stripped, zero option Civic DX to an HCH.
I'm not referring to anyone lately,
But in the past there have been people who see little or no difference.
Civic EX EPA is 38MPG.
My lifetime average is 58MPG.
I've driven 30K miles.
Fuel saved is about 260 gallons.
Fuel is around $1.80/Gallon Nat'l price.
I've saved around $475 in less than a year's time.
Or look at it this way:
Similarly equipped EX costs about $17K.
My HCH cost about $18.5K.
That's about $1.5K premium paid for my HCH.
Tax incentive should return about $400 of that premium.
My battery warranty extends to 10 years or 150K Miles.
In 5 years I'll reach 150K miles.
If I've saved ~ $500 each year in fuel over a similarly equipped Civic EX I'll have saved about $2,500.
I keep my vehicles for 10 years, so I'll end up with about 300K miles on it.
I expect the battery pack life to end before the 10 years/300K Miles. What will I do then?
Perhaps I'll be able to find a used replacement but in worse case I'll just drive it with reduced MPG.
I think we can expect gas prices to rise over $2 / gallon in the future. How high will it go? $2.50?
Will there be more political trouble in the middle east? ...$3.00 or more?
Bet there will be lots of used SUV's on sale for CHEAP then.
I'd never claim that hybrids are the best mile -to-dollar car you can buy.
If you are in that situation then perhaps a nice econo-car like Toyota Echo might be a better choice.
However if you want the most technological advanced auto to date, potentially fantastic MPG not obtainable with conventional methods, or want to make each and every commute a fun & exciting experience then a hybrid might be for you.
Exactly.
I'm always amazed at how much fun the HCH is. And it seems like so much more intelligent a form of pleasure than quick 0-60 times.
The trip was from Phoenix, AZ to Clyde, TX, about 930 miles one way.
I packed clothes for ten days for myself and two kids under age 9, and all the Christmas presents I could haul. The trunk was packed full to the lid, the front passenger floor and seat were both full, and half of the backseat floor was full. My kids each have a booster seat and they have a little plastic console in between the seats. I have always prided myself on my ability to pack a car, and this one was "well packed."
We filled up at Sam's Club and left town about 1:00 pm on Wednesday Dec 22nd. Some of you might recall that there was an "arctic cold front" moving down into the South Central US about that time, and we were headed right into it. It was about 60 degrees when we left Phoenix and clear, but we would not end the night that way.
The first "leg" of the trip was from Phoenix to El Paso, about 445 miles, and we only stopped once at a Rest Area on that leg. The Interstate 10 speed limits in that leg ranged from 60-75 MPH, and were mostly 75. I drove the speed limit and with the cruise on at all times. I achieved 52.75 miles per gallon between the Phoenix Sam's Club and the El Paso Sam's Club, where I filled up on their $1.569 gas. By the time we got to El Paso at about 8:00 pm local time, the COLD WIND had arrived and I just about froze to death while I fueled the HCH. We averaged 75.77 miles per hour and 52.75 miles per gallon on that leg - pretty impressive I think, for a fully loaded car driving that fast.
We got to Van Horn TX at about 10:30 pm local time and got the last $45 room at a little Motel in town to spend the night before continuing to Clyde the next morning. It was about 30 degrees and cloudy in Van Horn, and the Trip A odometer read 557 miles and 46.5 MPG, and we averaged 65.5 mph for that first 8.5 hours of the drive.
The next morning, we had a light frost on the HCH at 4:45 a.m. when we left Van Horn. The HCH started without a hitch, and the defroster cleared the back window in about 10 minutes. We were in windy conditions the rest of the way, mostly cloudy but no ice or snow on the road until we hit Sweetwater TX, which is about an hour or so from Clyde. The roads were frozen but sanded, so we only had to slow a little. The HCH had no problems holding the road in the wind or the slightly icy roads.
The next morning, the temps got into the mid teens at night, but when I started the HCH up to go get a newspaper that morning, it was no problem and the car ignored the weather completely. The defroster worked fine in front and back.
We drove the HCH around town and a took few short highway trips the 10 days in Texas, and it got us about 44 mpg for the time there, which was OK to me because of the colder temps and the fact that the car was mostly full of passengers every trip out.
For the return trip to Phoenix, we left on Sunday morning about 6:45 am Jan 2nd, and drove straight thru. Stopped once for gas in El Paso again (gas only cost $1.519 this time) and we got about 50 mpg for the 14 hour drive back to Phoenix. The temps were in the 40s and 50s, and the car was just as loaded on the way back as it was on the way to TX.
As far as interior comfort, the one slight complaint I had is that the driver's seat got kind of HARD after about 250 miles. Other than that, everything worked great, the car ignored the cold, and I was very pleased with the overall mileage for the trip, which was about 47.3 mpg for the 2568 miles driven. I had expected less with a full load and the cold, so I am pleased.
Anyway, I hope this helps anyone planning a road trip to know what to expect from the HCH.
"new Civic Hybrid will feature enhancements to Honda's IMA hybrid technology to achieve significantly higher fuel economy and performance." --Honda President and CEO Takeo Fukui
http://www.hondanews.com/CatID1000?mid=2005011134476&mime=asc
What you get (Standard Equipment)
HX Model
• Mechanical: 1.7-liter/ 102-cu. in I4 with 117 hp at 6100rpm and 110lb-ft of torque at 4500rpm; front-wheel drive; 5-speed manual or continuously variable automatic transmission; 32/38 mpg (city/highway - manual), 36/44 mpg (city/highway – automatic); dual front airbags; power steering; emergency inside trunk release; tachometer
• Comfort and style: theft-deterrent system; wheel covers; tilt steering wheel; cloth upholstery; front bucket seats; cupholders; split folding rear seat; digital clock; rear defogger; remote fuel-door and decklid releases; intermittent wipers; visor mirrors; cruise control; power mirrors and door locks; AM/FM/CD player; alloy wheels
Hybrid Model
• Mechanical: 5-speed manual or continuously variable automatic transmission; 1.3-liter/ 80-cu. in gasoline/electric I4 with 93 hp at 5700rpm and 116lb-ft of torque at 1500rpm (105lb-ft of torque at 3000rpm with CVT); 46/51 mpg (city/highway - manual), 48/47 mpg (city/highway – automatic); antilock brakes; front side airbags
• Comfort and style: ALL THE HX OPTIONS PLUS: automatic climate control; trip computer; variable-intermittent wipers; rear spoiler
Also, most importantly, the HX is a 2-dr coupe or hatchback, while the Hybrid as you know is a 4-door sedan.
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&Pro- dID=1243
Read the specs, 12000 mAh = 12Ah. I wonder if it would fit?
You would have to drive your Hybrid ~400,000 miles before you made up that $2000 difference.
The HX with luxury added makes more sense from a finance point-of-view.
I have two kids who climb into and out of car seats - I don't want a two door. I know many Civic buyers are in the same boat.
The HX is NOT NOT NOT a comparable vehicle to the Hybrid - it's just made to serve a different demographic.
I would think the EX sedan would be a closer matchup. In San Diego there is about $3k difference with the HCH. If you drive a lot of miles every year the HCH may pay for itself. If you love the moonroof and bigger trunk go for the EX. If you drive 30k miles a year the HCH will save you about $350 per year. They can both be PZEV so emissions is not an issue.
You would have to drive your Hybrid ~300,000 miles before you made up that $2000 difference.
The LX with luxury added makes more sense from a finance point-of-view.
troy
Well, I'm waiting to hear about the next Civic Hybrid now. It will be interesting to see the direction Honda takes with the replacement due next year.
I keep seeing this posted without any figures.
Also,
HX isn't an LX, which isn't a DX which isn't an HCH. They are all different trim levels no matter what options you add on.
Auto makers understand this and so do many buyers.
I don't think anyone here has claimed that buying an HCH is a better mile-for-dollar value over a cheap econo car.
Why waste your money on a HX when the Toyota Echo MSRP is only about $10K and gets about the same MPG as the regular Civics? That would be more money in your pocket.
If you live in a warm climate then I beleive the best mile-for-dollar value would be a moped, scooter or a motorcycle.
I didn't buy an Echo for the same reason I didn't get the HX or LX or a scooter.
Here we have to differ. According to Hondacars a nice luxury LX costs about $20,000
http://automobiles.honda.com/models/specifications_descriptions.a- - sp?ModelName=Civic+Sedan&Category=LX
Your luxury LX makes no financial sense over the MSRP for these cars:
Hyundai Accent $9,900
Toyota Echo $10,300
Chevrolet Cavalier $10,800
Saturn Ion $11,900
Pontiac Sunfire $11,460
Kia Riocinco $12,000
Nissan Sentra $12,700
Ford Focus $13,700
Dodge Neon $14,000
Knowing that you can save thousands of dollars on any one of these nice new cars, why would anyone ever buy a luxury LX? No doubt you could find a better price on your luxury LX but also on any of these listed cars.
So why do people buy an HCH over an LX? Simple. We don't want one.
I agree 100%. But there are some people on this board who continue insisting that a Civic Hybrid is a better choice, even if you are too poor to afford the $20,000 pricetag.
The concept of "I want something affordable" is not an acceptable reason to these persons.
troy
than Civic and the comparison is weird.
As for the prices, you have quoted is the lowest price of these models.
The actuals for the compact cars like Sentra, Focus, Neon will be
around 15 K.
Add the feature of Honda-EX model and they will hit between 17-18K.
And Hybrid-Civic sells for 21K. You may gain 2K in fuel savings.
So you are spending an extra 1K for a high MPG low polluting vehicle
which also reduces the trips to gas station with a 600 mile range.
And if Gasolene prices go above $ 2 / gallon, your payback will be
faster. Keep watching the gas prices.
Dont crib guys, those who have Hybrid-Civic are enjoying.
But it would be sensible if Honda introduces Hybrid version of Civic-LX and sells it for 18 K.
They just cannot make money doing that. If you add $3000 worth of technology to an Echo, then it's not competing with the low-end cars anymore.
What documentation do you have that sets the price of the IMA componentry. The last I saw the batteries alone cost $2k-$3k. Motors are not cheap. Light weight components are expensive. Larsb and I agree on this one. The car companies are trying to ease their pain by putting the technology into the highend models.
Where?
Civic EX is $2300 cheaper than Civic Hybrid. So, Honda must not be giving money away if batteries cost $3K with Civic Hybrid since at this time we’re not discussing additional frills (yes Civic EX has a cheap version of the moonroof but no automatic climate control, not as good noise insulation or as nice interior and does without improved underbody aerodynamics). There are additional things in the hybrid that cost some and are included in “the premium”.
So, why would $2K be impossible in a Jazz/Fit?
.
FUEL SAVINGS OF CIVIC HYBRID vs. A 40mpg CAR
100,000 miles = $1000
200,000 miles = $2000
300,000 miles = $3000 (engine dies; no battery replacement)
FUEL SAVINGS OF INSIGHT HYBRID vs. A 40mpg CAR
100,000 miles = $2100
200,000 miles = $4200
300,000 miles = $6300 (engine dies; no battery replacement)
Financially, I still think it makes more sense to buy the cheaper, non-hybrid car for $15-18,000. Unless you can "get around" the 2-seat limitation of the Insight.
troy
I would be willing to bet that they are not making a profit on their hybrid cars. If they were they would be ramping up production to get all they can get. Besides you made the statement they can do the IMA upgrade for $2000. So where do you get that figure. We won't even know what the batteries cost until the 8 years is up and some poor smuck has to buy a set from Honda.
I'm sure Honda is too, since their version is simpler/fewer parts/less expensive.
troy
Let us do it then. ;-)
Is that retail cost?
I've not heard of any car company selling parts for "cost".
I wonder how much Honda actually pays for the HCH pack?
$500-1500?
electrictroy #1047
Thanks for posting your figures but you didn't post any calculations, just results.
Again, why spend 15-18K when you can buy a nice base Echo or similar for around $10K and still get 35-40MPG? You could keep the 5-8K in your pocket.
The HCH targets another market, and is about twice the car as the Echo, and thus is about twice the price.
That comparo is indeed apples to naranjas.......
Yes, that is my point.
Some here still want to compare a no frills Civic to the HCH...because it's cheaper...it appears that they can't tell any difference.
You're right. Different markets.
I have always compared the HCH to the EX which is at least $3k less than the HCH. The EX is not as stripped as the HCH is. It has a larger trunk & the power moonroof. Most of the time the moonroof adds $1000 to the price of a car. That means you are paying about $4k more for the HCH over the EX. What you get for that extra is about 8-10 mpg better mileage and ABS brakes. Can you think of anything else? If you drive a lot you can make up that difference in about 400k miles. You may be on your 3rd set of batteries by then, who knows. Both can be SULEV II rated if you live in CA or someplace that has low sulfur clean gas. Have I missed anything, or is the HCH a "gotta be the first to have one"?
Both cars are indeed very similar and both nice cars but there are differences.
http://automobiles.honda.com/models/model_overview.asp?ModelName=- - - - - - - - Civic+Sedan&bhcp=1&BrowserDetected=True
Honda cars shows the base MSRP at $17,660.
Base for the HCH is $19,500, about $2k difference. Since we are now comparing similar options, let's build an EX that includes:
MT with front/side bags $17,660
Splash guards $94
Rear spoiler $499
Fenderwell Trim $89
No carpeted mats are available for the EX, but
are available for the Accord for $79.
Total MSRP for that EX is $18,615...still about $1k more for the HCH.
I don't doubt that one can get a better deal on a new, same EX but you'll still be missing:
ABS
EBD
EX does not have the added sound dampening items built exclusively into the HCH body.
Trim package is similar but not the same, specifically the front clip and the rear area.
More things:
Automatic climate control
Special instrument panel
Heat rejecting glass
IMA system (And yes, this actually costs money)
LRR Tires
Exclusive alloy rims
CVT
Advanced cylinder management
What items don't you get on an HCH that you do get on an EX?
2 items: Moon roof and folding rear seat.
"The EX is not as stripped as the HCH is"
If you are always comparing then why claim HCH is a stripped model?
"What you get for that extra is about 8-10 mpg better mileage"
"You" implies me, misterme, and I've averaged about 60MPG over 12 months and 31K miles. EX can't average that.
If you mean people on average then you are right, about 10MPG better on the HCH.
How long do we expect fuel prices to remain stable and not exceed the $2.00 mark? $2.50 or higher?
"If you drive a lot you can make up that difference in about 400k miles"
In 12 months and 31K miles I've saved about $500 in fuel over the EX, calculating 60MPG over 38MPG based on $1.80/gallon fuel.
Another point:
HCH has taught me how to drive more efficiently and have fun doing it. It's an exclusive trait to this car.
If I would have bought an EX it would have been...well just another car...no driving for efficiency. What MPG would I actually get with an EX? low 20's? 30?
Comparing MPG with the car it replaced, I saved about $5,000 only last year.
"Have I missed anything, or is the HCH a "gotta be the first to have one"?
I'm not sure of your point.
Also, the HCH alloys are special lightweight alloys, to help get better gas mileage. Their look is functional, not gee-whiz junior high school.
It's interesting how troglodytes will spend $2,000 for alloy wheels, but the same (cash-strapped bottom-feeding subcompact buyers) can't imagine spending the same premium for hybrid technology.
Wonderful piece of response.
Even if an average HCH gets 50 MPG and Civic-EX gets 35 MPG. Thats 3,000 gallons for HCH and 4,300 gallons for Civic-EX over 150,000 miles and @ 1.8 / gallon, its $ 2,340 for that extra
1300 gallons.
You definitely get the Return on Investment + the 550 mile range means there is no need to pull over to the gas station frequently and waste a few miles.
After all there are so many people who buy an SUV without ever carrying 2-3 tons (for which SUV's are built) and they spend an extra $ 2000 - 3000 for the fuel. And all these critics never talk a word against them.
BTW, last year the sales of nearly 30 SUV's have declined because of rising gas prices.
Meanwhile enjoy your HCH and count the faster ROI as gas prices increase.
troy
You are only HALF right.
Echos CANNOT be compared to a Civic hybrid in creature comfort levels. It's just not targeted to the same market. The Echo is this millenium's answer to the Geo Metro of the 1990s - the cheapest basic transport you can buy from a big company (excluding the Kia/Hyundais).
"What Edmunds.com says: Still the class of its class, the Civic is the most refined, solidly built economy car on the market."
"What Edmunds.com says: With its cheap interior and wobbly handling, the Echo doesn't seem like much of a bargain, especially when you consider the more capable, better-packaged offerings from Hyundai and Toyota's own Scion division."
In other words, "you can't polish a turd."
Dont risk credibility by arguing that a lowly Echo compares to a Civic - it just doesn't....
I believe the longest thread in Edmund's history was to bash SUV owners. "I don't like SUVs, why do you?" was cut off at 62,020 posts. All the hybrid threads added up have a ways to go to catch that one.
I am not as much against the HCH as the motivation for hybrids. I think it is a more complex way to solve the fuel usage problem than other types of drive trains.
You will never hear me say that. I don't think the Echo should be allowed on freeways. Only surface roads with a 45 mph limit. Geo Metro is a good comparison.
Even if you question the motivation behind Hybrids, anyone can see the success so far. The EPA rates the USA Hybrids as the cleanest, greenest cars in the USA right now.
That's a positive step for everyone who breathes.
Even if you disagree with the implementation, the benefits are clear and undeniable.
At some point, clean diesel might make inroads and help reduce overall fuel consumption, but for right now, the Hybrids are the best we got.
Just as an FYI, the 2006 HCH is a redesign and promises higher MPG, so if you are in the mood to wait a few months you can get a newer generation of the HCH....
I first went to my local dealer (very large), and they were unwilling to part with one for less than MSRP, so I went online to a dealer about 25 minutes away, got their fleet dealer, who told me their price. No haggling -- one of my 'gentler' new car purchase experiences. :-)
troy
Yes, and by doing so you will:
1. Pollute more
2. have a lower resale value
3. spend more money on fuel
4. emit exhaust while sitting stopped at red lights
5. lose a tax break from the Fed and maybe State govt
6. lower the number of hybrids sold, which hurts everyone who breathes and might discourage carmakers to build future hybrids
7. be as effective at reducing oil usage as a chocolate teapot is at making tea
8. not be able to participate as a hybrid owner in the fantabulous Edmunds Hybrid Forums
9. lose the fun of being able to see how high you can get your MPG by using the dashboard tools provided in hybrid cars
10. be unable to get 93.1 MPG over a 3 mile stretch like I did once in my HCH.
11. get the satisfaction of going 700 miles on a single tank.
So go ahead and lose all those bennies if you want to. I don't.
Get me one, and I will consider buying it. Remember to add ABS, EBD, automatic climate control, better interior trimming, better NVH by way of more insulation and underbody plates etc. In the end, you may end up with a car that is more expensive than Civic EX.
And remember to have 4-doors on the HX. I considered HX before bringing home the EX. But for two issues:
- spouse wanted 4-doors
- dealer didn't have any available on the lot for a test drive
So even as SOUPED up as you want to make it, the LX/DX is not comparable to the Hybrid.
True
.
2. have a lower resale value 6. lower the number of hybrids sold, which hurts everyone who breathes and might discourage carmakers to build future hybrids 8. not be able to participate as a hybrid owner in the fantabulous Edmunds Hybrid Forums
(2) Most hybrids I've seen have *terrible* resale. Like Insights for only $8000. HCH's for onyl $12,000.
(6) If you can get great 44 mpg fuel economy without a battery, then hybrids should NOT be encouraged.
(8) Edmund's? Big whoop! I'd rather take my $2000 savings! :-)
.
1. Pollute more 3. spend more money on fuel 7. be as effective at reducing oil usage as a chocolate teapot is at making tea 10. be unable to get 93.1 MPG over a 3 mile stretch like I did once in my HCH. 11. get the satisfaction of going 700 miles on a single tank.
(1)(3)(7) ULEV is still ultra-clean. 44 mpg is AWESOME fuel economy. And it DOES reduce oil usage dramatically.
(10)(11) No, but 80 peak mpg & 600 miles on a tank is still darn good. And it cost $2000 less on the pricetag.
Troy