Karl's Daily Log Book

kevm14 · October 2005

I agree on your position. The effects for most people I think are more psychological than actual. "Boy I better stay off the throttle." "No, we can't drive there this weekend, gas is too expensive." "I better trade in my car on something super efficient before I go broke!"
I hate hearing all of these and, like you said, the reality is, the cost per month probably goes up LESS than the cost of dinner for two at a decent restaurant. ONE dinner. Sheesh. How is that budget breaking?
Now for people who were already barely scraping by.....well, hopefully they're not wasting money with an internet connection and reading Edmunds forums and looking for a better job. Or a job.

ateixeira · October 2005

Nice article, Karl.

I kinda liked the point you almost tried to make.

Here's what I think - if you didn't care much about gas mileage before, odds are you don't care much now. Maybe slightly more, for some people.

The people are are fuel mising now were already concerned about fuel economy before. The people that guzzled gas before aren't gonna change.

-juice

docnukem · October 2005

Domestics may control 60% of the market, but show me one magazine or web-based company that does not cater to its "clientele". If a company did not give its consumers what they wanted, they would go elsewhere and the company would go out of business.

While there are many people here complaining to Karl about what they don't see and what they would like to see, the ones who are using the site for research would seem to be the silent majority (based on Karl's figures). I am not trying to be an apologist for Edmunds, but why would they alienate the majority of their users? If the usage changes significantly and the numbers Karl uses change, you would likely see the change that some are asking for.

imidazol97 · October 2005

Using the logic of most researched being the only cars worth knowing about...
does that mean the companies shouldn't sell the others which aren't in the group of cars being tested? Just quit making them since MOST of the researching isn't being done on those cars?

I used to research cars just because they piqued my interest. They weren't cars I'm going to buy. In some cases I wouldn't want to feed and care for a Corvette, but I researched it. I also researched Mustangs. A friend of my wife's bought one--55 year old female teacher. I'm not buying the ones I'm researching. I probably have been counted as researching Prius. I ain't buying one with my science background. I have not researched Lucerne or LeSabre for couple of years, but I am likely to buy a Lucerne when they come out.

Researching isn't the final word on what cars people should be long term testing.

rorr · October 2005

"I used to research cars just because they piqued my interest."

The point is, why should Edmunds devote their funds to long-term tests of cars which are NOT being researched for WHATEVER reasons? Why should Edmunds pay the money to purchase XYZ vehicle for a long-term test when they KNOW few people are researching it and therefore few people will read the test results?

Have you read long-term tests of cars which you have absolutely no interest in buying? I'll bet you have. I know I have, many times. Why? Because even though you aren't in the market for that vehicle, you are curious about how it held up for an extended period of time. Curiousity is why many of us read these articles. And from Edmunds viewpoint, they don't care WHY the articles are read, they just want to publish articles which will interest the largest number of potential readers.

"I have not researched Lucerne or LeSabre for couple of years, but I am likely to buy a Lucerne when they come out."

Precisely the point. You are likely to buy this vehicle even though you haven't researched it. So why should Edmunds devote money and energy into long-term testing of a vehicle which the majority of potential buyers of this vehicle will never read? How many GM buyers operate purely on inertia, buying GM vehicles for years simply because they are a 'GM Family'? The only 'research' these people are doing is looking for reviews to support their preconceived notions that their favorite car is a 'world beater'.

nwng · October 2005

I think this might be interesting for a lot of people.

maybe a 2-3 year old used car with 30k mi, see how well it hold up for another 20-25k and whether or not it justifies buying a used car (upfront savings on depreciation versus repairs).

carlisimo · October 2005

That's one of the things I like about Canadian Driver (the other is their photos). They review used cars as used cars, which is a whole lot more helpful than reading a 5-year old new car review.

I doubt there'd be enough readership to justify it though.

1487 · October 2005

The logic being put forth here is absolutely insane. Who cares about the overall test fleet for Edmunds entire history? I specifically asked about the current test fleet which is currently domintated by imports to the point where I have to believe there is no interest in really testing new american models. Almost everything Karl said is ridiculous, but I suppose it speaks to the logic behind Edmunds view of the automotive world. Your job is review and rate new vehicles objectively as they come out, not to tailor your website or reviews to "intelligent, well educated, higher income import lovers". Basically what you are saying is that it is Edmunds' job to preach to the choir and give readers what they presumably want......more great reviews of imports and more bashing of unpopular domestics. As I said before, the whole notion of long term testing vehicles with great reputations and great sales is pointless. Why long term test a civic if the average buyer has no questions about the long term durability of a civic? Do you really think someone is going to make a buying decision on a civic based on an edmunds long term test?

"You want more domestics in the long-term fleet. Go tell the domestics how to produce cars that
A. Sell really well, and
B. Are popular with Internet users/shoppers (generally younger, more educated, higher income shoppers...) "

Have you ever heard of the Impala, explorer, malibu, focus, Silverado, F150, Colorado, escape, equinox, etc? These are all models near the top of charts, at least in the top 20. Based on your own twisted logic can you tell me why the '06 Impala can't be added to the fleet? It's new and sells well so it should in the fleet. Same goes for the Equniox, Lucerne (assuming it sells as well as Lesabre) and HHR. Regardless of what models people are researching you should do your best to expose new and improved vehicles that represent a good value. I would think that would be part of Edmunds mission in general even if some models aren't heavily researched on this site. If you are only concerned about cars heavily researched on this site, why would get the Ford GT, Solstice, a Ferrari or a 745? Getting a Solstice is completely pointless because the car is being sold in such small volumes and it totally contradicts the "justification" you posted earlier.

"See, the automakers are supposed to fix their problems and sell great product FIRST, then we take note and start alerting consumers to the change. "

Are you saying as long as the media (really just you because I'm sure that's the only opinion that counts) says that domestic cars are crap than it is to be taken as fact without any regards to reality?

There is no comparison between what happened with Nissan and what is happening to the Big 2.5. Nissan had serious financial problems but they had a great reputation amongst the press and the general public. While old Nissans were rather boring in terms of styling, (but not ugly like current models) they were always well loved by the press for their engines, quality and driving character. Your whole "NIssan is the same as GM and look what they did only five years!" theory makes no sense whatsoever. As far as i can tell Nissan has expanded sales by adding models, horsepower, odd, but not attractive, styling and cheap plastic interiors. Is that what you think GM should do? Doubt that will work.

I am not surprised, but very disappointed that Edmunds is determined to cater to a certain group of people and completely ignore non-import products. I guess part of the logic is that anyone who would consider buying a non-import is too uneducated to use the internet and the other part is that spending too much time writing about "loser" domestic companies would drive away loyal readers who love nothing more than being assured that the Big 3 make junk. I really wish you guys would leave your personal import obsessed, west coast biases aside and just give the readers as much information as possible instead of deciding in advance what brands or cars should be marginilized. I can see there really are no rules for governing what cars should be long term tested because the very rules you listed have been and continue to be ignored if we look at many of the cars in your fleet and the ones you plan to add in the future.

As long as the barometer for where the domestics stand is set by publications like Edmunds there is no chance for a comeback regardless of how good the vehicles are. We are corresponding with an editor at a major online magazine who is of the opinion that GM makes no acceptable models except the Solstice in spite of the fact that they have 60-70 models on the market. This we are told is not because of any personal bias or dislike of GM vehicles, it's because every GM vehicle (except one) is crap. Everything from the Aveo to the XLR is excacty the same and none of them can even be considered on par with the import competition.

"Believe it or not, if they build it, customers will come (even with all the "unfair bias that the mean old automotive press keeps heaping on them"

This is absolutely untrue. There are plenty of decent domestic car (500, GTO, G6, lacrosse, Freestyle to name a few) out there that represent decent alternatives to the same bread and butter imports but they dont stand a chance because a) they are handicapped because of their brand and b) they are generally slammed by the press when objectively speaking they are just as good as the majority of the competiton.

Bottom line is this the only way for GM or Ford to get props would be to build Toyota/Honda clones and even that is doubtful because they would then be crticized for lack of innovation.

bellamusica · October 2005

I'm not sure I understand. Why is it "ridiculous" for Edmunds to tailor its content to the documented needs of its users? As Karl pointed out, the majority of those using the Edmunds site for vehicle research are researching import vehicles. It seems more likely that Edmunds is responding to their user-base than participating in a media conspiracy against domestic vehicles.

It seems to me that understanding ones clientele is an important key to success.

rorr · October 2005

"It seems to me that understanding ones clientele is an important key to success."

Absolutely. Which is why I wanna know where the long-term tests are for the current generation Toyota Camry? Or Toyota Corolla? Or ANY Honda Civic? How about the new VW Passat? Or even the winner of Edmund's own small-car comparison, the Mazda3? Current generation Acura Integra?

navigator89 · October 2005

"Current generation Acura Integra?"

Don't you know that there is no current generation Acura Integra? All Acura has in the small car segment is the RSX coupe and the small TSX.

About the Honda Civic, Karl said that one would be added so just wait.....

There's no point in adding a Camry IMO. We all know that they are reliable, and I agree with 1487 somewhat that more domestic sedans should be added, even if they aren't class leaders. Examples, Montego, G6, Impala, STS.

Mazda 3 sounds like a good proposition but won't happen as they won't buy a 2004 model now.

bumpy · October 2005

"There are plenty of decent domestic car (500, GTO, G6, lacrosse, Freestyle to name a few) out there that represent decent alternatives to the same bread and butter imports..."

"Decent" is the absolute rock-bottom minimum effort required to exist in the US market. "Decent" is not good enough to counter a reputation for building vehicles that ranged from shoddy to should-have-been-scrapped-at-the-factory, within the living memory of just about the entire new-car-buying public. That kind of bad reputation can only be cured by a long period of building exemplary vehicles, in all facets of design and production and across all product lines. GM and Ford have made some steps in that direction, but not consistently and not for long enough. Frankly, Hyundai has made more progress in redeeming themselves than GM and Ford combined and with far fewer resources than those two have at their command.

rorr · October 2005

My last post was completely tongue-in-cheek; although I had forgotten that Acura isn't calling their smallest car the Integra anymore.

My point was, that their are PLENTY of other cars out their which Edmund's doesn't have in their fleet; cars which arguably have more Edmund's reader's interest than many in 1487's post.

Is GM under-represented? Well, that all depends on what criteria is used to chose long-term cars.

"There's no point in adding a Camry IMO. We all know that they are reliable, and I agree with 1487 somewhat that more domestic sedans should be added, even if they aren't class leaders. Examples, Montego, G6, Impala, STS."

Insinuating that the cars which SHOULD be long-term tested are middle of the pack, mediocre offerings which questionable build/reliability history? Hmmmm, perhaps GM IS under-represented......

210delray · October 2005

...to borrow Ronald Reagan's favorite phrase,

"There you go again!"

imidazol97 · October 2005

>There's no point in adding a Camry IMO.

>That kind of bad reputation can only be cured by a long period of building exemplary vehicles, in all facets of design and production and across all product lines.

How will you know when Ford and GM are building better cars if you aren't testing the normal typical driving cars? An LTZ Impala. A LaCrosse. There seem to be lots of SUVs in the list along with large vehicles that are gas guzzlers and are going to be less desirable in the market. Why not test more automobiles?

editor_karl · October 2005

How will you know when Ford and GM are building better cars if you aren't testing the normal typical driving cars?

I'll know by driving them on various press trips and vehicle loans. I assume others here will know by test driving them, or even by reading the press coverage. Contrary to some misconceptions, you can figure out 80 percent of a car's strengths and weaknesses in about 30 minutes of drive time. At least I can.

No need to waste time/editorial space on a one-year, long-term test if I can drive the car during a press event/loan and already tell it's nothing special (i.e. HHR, Impala, Five-Hundred, Dakota, etc).

Note I said NOTHING SPECIAL. As already suggested, a "fine" car from the domestics isn't going to change anyone's view of them. A class-leading, segment altering, benchmark establishing car, preferably one with some forward-thinking styling thrown in...well, that's something we'll want in the fleet no matter which continent the company's CEO lives on (i.e. Dodge Magnum, Ford Mustang, or Honda Civic).

BTW, do you consider the Insight, Accord Hybrid, Escape Hybrid, Prius and RX 400h gas guzzlers? How about the New Beetle 1.8 TDI?

bigdaddycoats · October 2005

"No need to waste time/editorial space on a one-year, long-term test if I can drive the car during a press event/loan and already tell it's nothing special (i.e. HHR, Impala, Five-Hundred, Dakota, etc)."

Most of the time, believe it or not, I do agree with you. However, in the case of the Impala, I must disagree. The new Impala will most likely sell around 250,000 units per year - maybe even more than the coveted 300/Charger/Magnum combined.

In terms of sales, the Impala is pretty high up on the list. You may not like it, but many do. Not all readers like what you do.

On another note - your favorite of all time - the HHR is selling pretty well;)

explorerx4 · October 2005

haha! fell for post 2044 hook, line, and sinker. i guess if people will let their first impressions make the long term go/no go decision, then the vehicle probably isn't worth testing, since it will just sit around.

editor_karl · October 2005

Most of the time, believe it or not, I do agree with you. However, in the case of the Impala, I must disagree. The new Impala will most likely sell around 250,000 units per year - maybe even more than the coveted 300/Charger/Magnum combined.

True...but what makes it special? Before the 300/Charger/Magnum how many sub-$25,000 sedans could you buy that were:
Rear-wheel drive
Very large inside and out, like classic American sedans
Styled like nothing else on the market (in a good way according to most consumers)
Availabe with various V8 engines, all the way up a 400-horsepower-plus version (though obviously you blast through the $25,000 price at that point)
Designed in the 21st century (meaing the Crown Vic doesn't count 'cause it's ancient)

The Impala is a large, front-wheel drive sedan. You can say you do or don't like the styling, but it ain't exactly "inspired" no matter how you slice it. Yes, you can now get a V8 in it, but that's AFTER Chrysler broke the mold by offering one in their sub-$30,000 sedan first. Once again, GM playing "catch up" not "trailblazer" (ironic since they make one of those :P ). And in the end, it's a revision for 2006, not a redesign. The Ford Explorer got as many or more updates than the Impala this year, but we won't be getting one of those for the long-term fleet either.

BTW, we're getting the Mercedes C350 not because it's all new, but because we've never had a Mercedes vehicle in the fleet, and the C-class is their volume seller, and the engine is new (and important because it's offered in practically every model in their line-up).

By our own rules we should have gotten a Mazda 3, but we didn't. Mazda was talking about giving us one, so we didn't buy our own. Then they never came through and it was suddenly 2005 and really too late to do it.

Also, the Chevrolet Cobalt long-term car introduction is posting this week.

bigdaddycoats · October 2005

So, what makes the Cobalt special?????

I am not saying the Impala is a spectacular vehicle. But, it does sell in great volumes. A lot more readers may have an interest in a long term Impala than that of a Magnum.

Interesting that the vehicles that Edmunds and other publications seem to prefer do not usually lead in sales in their respective categories.

Case in point - the Mazda3 has been picked by numerous reviewers as the best in class, yet it is not even close to being a segment sales leader. Just because the press loves a car does not mean the masses will.

210delray · October 2005

...the whiners are back in full force! Way to go, Karl!

BTW, I've seen two '06 Impalas up close, one parked so I could look inside. Nice-looking instrument panel. Wonder if it's padded (oops, I mean "soft touch").

From the rear, I can't believe how narrow it appears, no wider-looking than a Malibu. Why oh why didn't they put triple round taillights on each side and make it look like a real Impala?

editor_karl · October 2005

So, what makes the Cobalt special?????

The Cobalt isn't special...but it is the first redesign of GM's car for that segment since...well, I don't remember exactly how long the Cavalier went without a redesign. I know Bob Lutz admitted to me that the Cavalier, "...is old enough to vote" when I talked to him a couple years ago.

But the Cobalt will sell in relatively large numbers and it was an all-new design for that segment.

The Impala isn't all new, it's numbers are greatly assisted by rental/fleet sales, and it just won't have much of an impact on that segment -- certainly not like the 300/Charger have had/will have. While the gains are not huge, Chrysler is the only domestic to report sales increases for the past year. And the sales decreases by Ford and GM aren't small, they're massive.

Plus, it's not just total sales for a model. It's sales, plus market impact, plus design innovation, plus what we know our readers -- our readers -- want to read about. The Mazda 3 is selling extremely well. It was actually leading the Civic in Canadian sales, and the Mazda folks told me the biggest limiting factor to the 3's sales is their capacity to build it. I think it has been far more successful then they planned.

bigdaddycoats · October 2005

"plus what we know our readers -- our readers -- want to read about"

Apparently not all of them:)

imidazol97 · October 2005

I wonder how the widths actually do compare?
Is the new Impala the same width as last year's Impala?

I really agree with you that keeping the round taillights would have kept the cue with last year's Impala. The Camry/Mercedes whatever shaped foreign taillight shape helps with the foreign styling cues. BUT if they had kept the round taillights, there would be whining about NOT having made any changes and about KEEPING the old that didn't work before, etc., ad nauseum. Darned if they do, darned if they don't.

Lots of Impalas are around the greater neighborhood. More than Camrys or Accords. Somebody is buying them. If anything the Accord types are learning and are buying Kias and Hyundii.

I'd like to drive an Impala. I'll stop and see the retired policeman/salesman at the next village Chev dealer someday. I guess in 30 minutes I can tell a lot about it.

210delray · October 2005

My guess is that the overall width of the new Impala is unchanged, or essentially so. It just looks narrower than the 2000-05 model to me, from the rear at least.

IMO, what they should have done is gone to triple round tailights, smaller than the Bel Air-like double units on the older model, and ditched the red panel that stretched across the rear. (Of course, they did do the latter, but added the now cliched (sp?) triangular taillights that so many cars including Fords now have.)

And I have a Camry, but that doesn't mean I'm particularly fond of the taillights or the obligatory fake-chrome strip over the license plate recess.

imidazol97 · October 2005

I liked the Impala with the painted rear panel and the two round taillights showing through on each side. Nice.

carlisimo · October 2005

Import fans love the outgoing Impala's rear lights. From far away at night, they make us think "omg is that an R34 Skyline?" The front was pretty aggressive for its segment too. But now... it's just a big American Accord.

American manufacturers are too quick to kill names and successful parts of a car. Sure, some cars have little worth keeping, but there's always something. Instead, they start over (like with the G6 name). But it takes years and years for a name to become so ingrained in people's minds that it automatically enters their heads when they think "I need a new car."

If Toyota renamed the Camry for 2008... hundreds of thousands of people would think "hey... there's no Camry anymore. I'll just have to go with whatever other safe name there is, like the Accord. I don't trust Toyota's new midsized car."

With taillights the effect is smaller, but they were great advertising for the Impala and I'll miss them.

imidazol97 · October 2005

>...is that an R34 Skyline?"

I had to look up an R34 Skyline. Looks like something I would have driven in my youthful oblivion years.

It's amusing that the front Chevrolet bar was bad, and some criticized it. And when it's gone the replacement is bland (it is indeed). But the motor options and t he car is vastly more like we'd want.

The name continuity is criticized and stigma added by constant repetition of criticisms, e.g., Buicks are for old people. But you know, there are more people in their 60's every year. And they buy cars. Next year there will be a new crop. But somehow the number of people over 60 is decreasing because they die off.

I don't see the Impala as a direct competition to Camry Accord. If they had tried to do that, they would have been criticized roundly for not being innovation and they just aren't as good as the competitors. They are hitting areas not covered by the two imports.

carlisimo · October 2005

The Skyline is basically the previous-generation Infiniti G35, but it was only sold in Japan. (R34 is previous generation; V35 is the new one.) It was midsized, entry-lux, and it came in rwd sedan, rwd coupe, and awd GT-R coupe versions (the GT-R is the one in the movies). It has had four round taillights since the '60s... and the ended the tradition for the current Skyline / G35.
I mentioned the R34 version specifically because it was the only one with larger outboard lights (it also had littler circles inside). Like the Impala, they all used to be the same size.

And I think it's the Camry and Accord that are becoming competition to the Impala, especially the Camry. By the time the next Camry rolls around, I think they will be direct competition.

levyrob · October 2005

I just got back from Vancouver, and there Mazda 3's all over the place, so your point is well taken about them being popular up north.

I can understand people wanting their favorite car or brand to be long-term tested. For those whose favorite cars are NOT on the long-term list (like the Impala fans), what do you hope to find out or have folks learn that they don't know about the car?

It seems like a "full test" or a family sedan comparo would tell you how the car compares with the Accord/Camry/Altima/500/Galant, etc. But it seems like the book is probably already written on this car as a long-term prospect - reasonably reliable, probably prone to rattles later in life, seen in every major city hovering around airport rental lots, and apt to depreciate like a rock.

Except for the prospect of a V8 model, which will probably be tested by every car magazine, the new base Impala hasn't gotten much press in any publication that I've come across. Is this car such an improvement over its previous model, or is it now truly class-competitive that it deserves more coverage? (Please no discussions of journalistic bias).

Maybe a positive road test of the V8 will rub off on the lesser models.

bigdaddycoats · October 2005

No long term Impala, very well. It may be an old platform, but it is a pretty extensive refresh - new sheetmetal, new interior and 3 new engines.

As for the Mazda3 - still my favorite in this class. But -

"Plus, it's not just total sales for a model. It's sales, plus market impact, plus design innovation, plus what we know our readers -- our readers -- want to read about. The Mazda 3 is selling extremely well. It was actually leading the Civic in Canadian sales, and the Mazda folks told me the biggest limiting factor to the 3's sales is their capacity to build it. I think it has been far more successful then they planned. "

I do not see how this vehicle meets the above criteria of - "sales, plus market impact, plus design innovation" I like the 3 a lot, but it has not yet improved Mazdas' bottom line. At least in the U.S., the 3 has not reached sales levels achieved by its' predecessor the Protege. So, how has the 3 had a significant impact on the market?

nwng · October 2005

you would have to work all 3 shifts at mickyds everyday to afford a r34 in your youthful oblivion years if it were available in the states.

nothing beats a used camaro or mustang in my youthful oblivion years. My dream car in HS: a white monte carlo ss. Some kids drive brand new ones in HS, didn't know where they get their money from.

editor_karl · October 2005

I do not see how this vehicle meets the above criteria of - "sales, plus market impact, plus design innovation" I like the 3 a lot, but it has not yet improved Mazdas' bottom line.

Sales -- It has much higher sales than the Protege it replaced, so much that Mazda is having trouble meeting demand (similar to Chrysler 300/Ford Mustang).
Market Impact -- The Civic has essentially been the benchmark in this segment for a couple of decades. Now there's a car that most people (who take the time to drive everything in the segment) would probably take over a Civic. Major impact.
Design Innovation -- Few cars in this segment are truly exciting to drive -- though the Civic has been pretty good in this area. The Mazda 3 is undeniably fun to drive, plus it has very cool/unique exterior and interior styling.

bigdaddycoats · October 2005

Sales - I do not see a great impact on U.S. sales. Not higher than the Protege yet (they should be by end of 05).
Protege sales, 2001 - 78668
2002 - 83367
2003 - 68778
Mazda3 sales, 2003 - 2081
2004 - 76080
ytd 2005 - 75570

Market impact - not so. I would think most car companys measure market impact in terms of sales - the increase in sales this year will not have much of an impact in this segment. Heck, even the getting-old-Sentra is selling ahead of last years rate and better than the 3.

Design innovation - Yes, indeed the 3 is fun to drive and posses very cool design cues. Apparently though, the majority of the consumers look at other factors when spending their $$$.

As always, thanks for taking the time to communicate with us. I do enjoy debating with you, even when you are wrong;). Have a great weekend.

carlisimo · October 2005

It's not Mazda's fault people are boring!

editor_karl · October 2005

It's true I was referring to total sales, not just U.S. sales. I'll have to confirm with my Mazda connections, but as I said it surpassed Civic sales in Canada, which is kind of unprecedented. And Canadians aren't known for being particularly carefree with their money.

Market impact goes beyond sales. It has to do with awareness/consideration. If X amount of people had considered the Protege in 2003, and Y amount considered the 3 in 2005 -- regardless of how many actually bought one -- that's a big win for Mazda...assuming that number went up substantially (I'd argue it did). It's hard to track, but just Edmunds/Inside Line readers alone must be far more aware of the 3 then they were of the Protege. And I know plenty of other books that have given the car major kudos.

Again, think Chrysler 300. Is it outselling everything in the segment by a wide margin? No. Is it selling as well or better than the previous model to serve that role for the company? Yes. Is it a far more recognizable car to the average consumer out there? Is it causing that many more potential buyers to at least visit a Chrysler dealership (maybe they end up in a Town & Country or PT Cruiser, but those are still Chrysler sales). Definitely yes (probably a key component to why Chrysler is the only domestic manufacturer to have more sales this year than last).

1487 · October 2005

Sometimes I have to wonder if you are serious. Where do you get off saying the impala is a minor refresh and not a redesign? What criteria are you using. All new engines, all new interior, new features, new sheetmetal, etc. The Impala is just as all new as the Accord was in 2003 or the Camry in 2002. The only thing that carries over is the platform and the tranny and you say the car is basically a minor update of the 2005 model. As someone else said, it's obvious that you dont like the Impala (shocking) but that doesnt mean readers arent interested in the car. there is no justification for Edmunds not long term testing one of the three best selling midsize sedans when it gets redesigned. For all your talk about the 300 it wont even have half the sales of the Impala and 2006 and like the impala it gets sold to flee customers. Unless you have some information proving that the 300s % of fleet sales is signficantly lower I would stop suggesting that the 300s success isnt related to fleets and the Impala is only sold to fleets.

Your whole speech about cars being special makes no sense. Are you saying the base model Jetta is special? give me a break. What I am seeing is that most american cars are written off based on the first brief drive and then they stand no chance of being evaluated in the long term. Didnt you guys say the reason for long term testing an Eclipse is to see if your initial impressions are wrong? Why cant you do the same thing for an Impala or 500. BTW, if I remember correctly your first drive of the Impala is very positive so I am not sure where you are coming from with all this "Impala isnt redesigned, it's still crap" stuff. Do you people at Edmunds ever talk to each other. Some of the things I am reading here totally contradict the reviews posted on this site. does everyone at Edmunds hate the Impala or just you?

"While the gains are not huge, Chrysler is the only domestic to report sales increases for the past year. And the sales decreases by Ford and GM aren't small, they're massive. "

Actually, if you look at the numbers for the year DC's sales are up slightly and GM/Ford are down slightly. I think GM is down about 3% on the year, not quite massive. With gas prices going up it would only make sense for GM's market share to suffer. The whole concept of "they must suck becuase their sales are down this year" always seems to apply to GM, but never to anyone like VW. Since VW is suffering large sales declines this year (and a couple previous years), does that mean their vehicles stink? Apparently not based on the way Edmunds has continues to fawn over recent VW products. Sounds like a double standard to me.

Will the Fusion be added to the long term fleet or is that another "nothing special" vehicle like the rest of the domestics? Oh wait, I mean every domestic except the Ford GT and 300C.

1487 · October 2005

Great point, I agree. If you want to see if the domestics are making progress in terms of quality you need to test their vehicles and see. Testing camrys and civics is a waste of time. Why would you spend a year+ driving those vehicles just to say "well, it was just as reliable as we thought," Who cares? Cars that are selling well and have great name recognition really dont need to be tested unless they are new like the 300/Magnum.

jaserb · October 2005

"I like the 3 a lot, but it has not yet improved Mazdas' bottom line. At least in the U.S., the 3 has not reached sales levels achieved by its' predecessor the Protege. So, how has the 3 had a significant impact on the market?"

I'd betcha the transaction prices / profit per car levels for the 3 are well above the old Protege. I recall fire sale pricing for lower level Proteges in the $10-11k range all the time, and I don't think you can even get into a 3 for much under $15k.

-Jason

editor_karl · October 2005

I drove the new Miata home last night. Long story as to why we had another one...again, but we did and I wanted more seat time because I had more time in the Solstice than the Miata earlier (though plenty of time in both).

Not really anything new to report. The car is very fun and the drivetrain is far superior to the Solstice's (revs quicker and has more mid-range torque). Beyond the drivetrain there's not any obvious advantage (except that the head unit won't wash out in daylight like it does in the Solstice). The whole "raise/lower top from the driver's seat" is kind of overstated. I don't remember this from the previous test cars, but on the one I drove last night I had to really push down hard on the top to get it to move the last few inches and lock into place. In fact, I had to push hard enough that I could barely do it from the driver's seat. And, because of the weird angle, I could see someone pulling a muscle in their arm/shoulder if they are out of shape. I was definitely twisted all around trying to get the best angle. But the car only had 400 miles on it, so maybe it gets easier the more you use it. And it does have better interior storage than the Solstice.

You really can't go wrong either way. Call it another Odyssey/Sienna situation.

jaserb · October 2005

"The whole "raise/lower top from the driver's seat" is kind of overstated."

And once again, I disagree. Might I gently suggest that if you lived somewhere where they have ... you know ... weather? you might feel differently. I remember when I was back in high school my dad swapped his LeBaron convertible for a Trans Am with T-tops. He figured the T-tops were just as good as a convertible - right up until the first time he got caught in a sudden cloudburst and had to scramble in the rain to install the T-tops. I don't think he ever took them off again. :P

To me, having to get out of the car to raise / lower the top is a MUCH bigger deal than having the radio display wash out in bright sun. But, if I lived someplace where they have bright sun 363 days out of the year I might feel differently too...

-Jason

bigdaddycoats · October 2005

"Market impact goes beyond sales. It has to do with awareness/consideration. If X amount of people had considered the Protege in 2003, and Y amount considered the 3 in 2005 -- regardless of how many actually bought one -- that's a big win for Mazda...assuming that number went up substantially (I'd argue it did). "

I would agree that the number has gone up. However, if the consumer ultimately buys a non-Mazda vehicle the point becomes somewhat irrelevant.

"Again, think Chrysler 300. Is it outselling everything in the segment by a wide margin? No. Is it selling as well or better than the previous model to serve that role for the company? Yes. Is it a far more recognizable car to the average consumer out there? Is it causing that many more potential buyers to at least visit a Chrysler dealership (maybe they end up in a Town & Country or PT Cruiser, but those are still Chrysler sales). Definitely yes (probably a key component to why Chrysler is the only domestic manufacturer to have more sales this year than last). "

Yes, very true. But, Mazda sales in the U.S. are actually down 1% from a year ago - therefore, I am not sure you could make the same case for the 3.

bigdaddycoats · October 2005

Even though we will not see it to Jan., what are your thoughts on the Volvo C30?

editor_karl · October 2005

Mini (BMW) has proven that a "premium small car" can work. The trick is it really has to feel "premium" inside, while also not upsetting an existing image (i.e. Mercedes C230 "coupe" and/or BMW 318ti).

Volvo is in that weird place where they want to be thought of in the same way as BMW and Mercedes, but they can probably get away with a small, hatch-type vehicle without people scoffing at it as a cheap marketing/badge engineering effort. This will be especially true if they can maintain their core value successfully (safety). I think a lot of people have liked the recent string of small Volvo concept cars (SCC, YCC, etc.). The styling has been compelling, so if they bring it all toegether properly (styling, safety, value-for-the-money), I see it working for them.

gee35coupe · October 2005

You really can't beat on the Mazda3 here. It has been a resounding success for Mazda. Karl is correct in that they can't build enough of them the meet demand. Mazda has made a ton of money off this car worldwide. They build them in one fcatory and it has been running at full tilt since this car was introduced.

The Mazda3 picture is much larger than the sales in the U.S. As far as Mazda sales being down....There are obviously other cars in the Mazda linup that aren't performing as well.

bigdaddycoats · October 2005

I actually really like the Mazda3 - if I was in the market for a compact, it would most likely be my first choice.

All I am saying is that the 3 has not had a significant impact on the U.S. market as a whole or for Mazda itself in the U.S..

It very well may be a resounding success for Mazda on a worldwide scope, just not on the U.S. market. It has not yet passed yearly sales marks set by the Protege and certainly has not caused a overall increase for Mazda sales in the way that the 300/Magnum/Charger may have for the Chrysler group.

gee35coupe · October 2005

Every publication has deemed it a worthy competitor to the Civic if not declaring it outright a better car. If you read Edmunds you would notice everyone at least goes on a test drive in the Mazda3 when they want a small car but many time they just can't find the one they want. This is a car where the sales numbers don't tell the whole story. But if you have been watching the this car since it's introduction, you would see that it has been quite an influence.

bigdaddycoats · October 2005

Yes, almost every publication has ranked it near the top.

It is definitely a sporty, fun to drive vehicle. And it is touted and marketed as such. Apparently though, the consumer places other attributes higher when purchasing a car. Qualities that others have - like the Civic and Corolla.

So how has the 3 made quite a splash? And what is the influence?

High rankings by the press are great, but, if it does not translate into increased sales then all the praise is irrelevant.

It seems to me that most automotive publications tend to prefer "sporty" vehicles. That however, does not mean that is what the market as a whole prefers. Even if Mazda could or would choose to produce the 3 in the same quantities as the Civic or Corolla, I do not think they could sell as many. Who knows, maybe I am wrong?

Of course I am speaking of the U.S. market.

This subject has probably run its course here so I will graciously let it go and admit to a difference of opinion.

gee35coupe · October 2005

The reason the sales don't show the increased demand is that there is simply no capacity to build more of them. The worldwide supply comes from one factory. I'll let someone else explain.
http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0407/18/a01-213605.htm
Check out the blurb on the 3. Not to mention they had a fire at that cut production short last year. The 3 wouldn't outsell the Civic/Corolla even if they sent every one they made to the U.S., but that doesn't mitigate it's significance.

The splash is that there was really no "really" sporty car in the segment other than the Civic. Now you have the Corolla XRS and a rumoured Civic SI sedan in the pipeline. Honda and Toyota took notice.

ateixeira · October 2005

Take it from someone who has installed two new tops in a Miata in the past two years (one worn out, one vandalized) - the vinyl top indeed breaks in and gets softer with age. 400 miles isn't enough, it's still not fully stretched out and broken in.

Make sure you put the top back *up* at night to stretch the vinyl. About 2-3 months and the top gets much easier to lower and raise.

-juice

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