quote ruking1-"The other point is if they increase the supply of Prius'(magic wand scenario here) they will not be able to sell it for the prices they are now. (relatively)"-end quote
The "price they are selling for now" has ZERO to do with profit for Toyota Corporation.
Any markups people are paying go to the DEALERS, not to Toyota. Toyota sells EVERY Prius for EXACTLY the same price to EVERY dealer, as do ALL the car companies. Every Avalanche configured with Options X sells for the same price to all the dealers.
Toyota is also in the process of engineering 50% less cost into the hybrids, so when that happens, they start making more money per Prius sold.
I was wondering... you do have a TDI... do you feel happy that your car scores a "1" according to the EPA? What are your thoughts on the matter? Forget the Prius even exists for a moment. Concentrate on the matter at hand. As Johnny Cochran would have said it.... " If diesels pollute, I won't commute!!!"
For those who might care, and especially for those who say they do not care:
From August 8th 2005 through December 19th 2005, my Civic Hybrid has achieved this:
3,070 total miles driven (99% city driving) $134.66 spent on fuel 135 days total about $1 per day in fuel costs about 4.4 cents per mile in fuel costs about 49.3 miles per gallon average fuel price paid was $2.579 per gallon
I could expect no better than this from anything this side of a Honda Insight. Hooray for Hybrids !! :shades:
I 'stated the obvious" because your post made it sound like "toyota corporate" is making extra money from dealers charging over MSRP for Priuses, which is completely incorrect.
Thrilled actually. In CA, the TDI does not require "for FEE" smog tests and certifications as gassers do. The 10 year "SMOG ONLY Station" tests are usually app 100 dollars and the test is administered specifically to try to take that vehicle off the road. This is disingenuous in that FED regulations MANDATE up to 15 years and 150,000 miles. The other disingenuous thing is we are charged a yearly "smog" fee for (not going to a biannual smog test) going to a 4 year smog test.
I took a 10 year old Toyota LANDCRUISER to the "SMOG ONLY" test station (much more disingenuous, if you wish to hear the full tale) that in my (humble) opinion BADLY needed a tune up, and it past with absolutely FLYING colors!!!! I compared the original smog certs and the 10 year SMOG ONLY test station. The later results were almost better than the originals!! Keep in mind I have been doing 15,000 mile oil change intervals, etc, etc. So the whole process is totally disingenuous, given the fed regulations, manufacturing standards and the results of those tests.
I NEVER said what you wrote! SOOOOOO....... if it is NOT clear to you, reread my post and substitue/add in "wholesale price to dealers" (will have to go down) etc., I know you can figure out the rest.
So let me get this straight... you'd rather drive a TDI with a pollution rating of 1 verses a Ford Focus with a pollution rating of 8. I guess you don't care about the future of our planet. Sorry to hear that.
My new sig: If diesels pollute, I won't commute!! Hey.. I like that!!
quote ruking1-"The other point is if they increase the supply of Prius'(magic wand scenario here) they will not be able to sell it for the prices they are now. (relatively)"-end quote
Did you mean to say that Toyota would LOWER the price it sold Priuses to the dealers if the supply went up? Or did you mean to say that if Priuses were in higher supply that dealers would not be marking them up? Which one?
Re read the post, it follows from that on a MACRO level. Put it another way the Toyota Corolla sells for close to invoice (or under invoice if you catch it right) and they sell a large volume and make a fair (to fat) profit....
It is more challenging than amusing. Trying to figure out where all the misinformation is coming from. It has to be those phoney Toyota ads about saving the environment with a few sparsely sold hybrids.
You never answered a question on Prius production. How can Ford in less than a year double the output of their brand new Ford Mustang? When after almost 3 years the car company with all the money cannot catch up with the Prius. And the Mustang did outsell the Prius by a very sizable margin. If Toyota was at all interested in the environment they would flood the market with the Prius. I think they know they have just about reached the peak of sales potential. Why build a car that they cannot make a pile of cash on?
Well said!! I also agree they are pretty close to the market peak. But I think as the GE past CEO Jack Welch has conceptualized; they "do not want to commoditize " the hybrid drive train. As soon as it becomes the "cure all" they LOSE pricing power.
quote gagrice-"Why build a car that they cannot make a pile of cash on?"-end quote
My point exactly - they are building it because it's GREEN, and NOT because "it makes them a lot of green."
They are not "flooding the market with them" because even if they COULD (which they cant because of supply issues) or if they did, Hybrids would only sell a few more thousand than they do now because of the extra cost.
Just like the VW Beetle sells WAY fewer diesel Beetles because of the $4400 added cost for the diesel model.
Once Toyota cuts hybrid component costs by 50% as has been challenged to their engineers, then two things will happen:
Priuses will be cheaper to build Toyota will make more money on each hybrid
Then they can consider it more of a money maker for them.
Just wait until the Hybrid Camry hits the streets at $26K and a 40/33 rating.....That pup is going to FLY off the lots....
[quote]"For those who might care, and especially for those who say they do not care:
From August 8th 2005 through December 19th 2005, my Civic Hybrid has achieved this:
3,070 total miles driven (99% city driving) $134.66 spent on fuel 135 days total about $1 per day in fuel costs about 4.4 cents per mile in fuel costs about 49.3 miles per gallon average fuel price paid was $2.579 per gallon
I could expect no better than this from anything this side of a Honda Insight. Hooray for Hybrids !! :shades: "[unquote]
I think most folks would be glad for you!! However, tell the whole story.
Just substitue your numbers with mine on a Civic. My range is 37-41 to your 49.3
The difference at the time I was quoted $20,000 for the Civic Hybrid vs $12,500 for the Civic or $7,500 more for the hybrid. So at $2.579, that buys me 2,908 gals or (37-41 mpg)107,600-119,232 miles (@ 50 miles R/T per day)or 5.9 yrs - 6.53 years of commuting.
Well the other truth is VW is also bemoaning the fact they do not make nearly enough money selling TDI's. In fact they have posted yearly losses!! So how does that even up the "worthiness" factor?
Just like the VW Beetle sells WAY fewer diesel Beetles because of the $4400 added cost for the diesel model
You are listening to the uninformed way too much. The price difference in the Beetle with TDI is about $1200, that includes the very fine DSG transmission. Something the Toyota & Honda need to look into.
You are also dreaming if you think that the Camry hybrid will sell for $26k or that Toyota will cut hybrid costs by 50%. I will bet you any amount you would like that the MSRP of the Prius does not come down in the next 5 years. If they ever meet the demand the gouging may subside. That is all someone has to look forward to if they buy a hybrid. Even the lowly 2006 HCH has an asking price just under $27k on the lot closest to me. Only a FOOL would pay that much for one. I told the salesman if he finds a sucker that I would like his phone number. I got all kinds of ocean front property in AZ to sell him.
Sometimes I wonder why people are so narrowminded. No one has yet had the guts to say "Yeah... I drive a TDI with a pollutin rating of 1 and I don't care about the environment". Meanwhile Toyota is trying their hardest to get as many hybrids to market as they can. Their only limitation is their supplier. You have to have an IQ less than 80 NOT to realize that you just can't flip a switch and ramp up production. GM should be chastised for not coming through with the Solstice! Talk about a horrible PR fiasco!! Well... we all know GM is just a wannabe hybrid company anyway. They got 300 suckers to buy a hybrid pickup with a generator and autostop. Wonder how long it will take those folks to recover their premium!!
quote ruking1-"The difference at the time I was quoted $20,000 for the Civic Hybrid vs $12,500 for the Civic or $7,500 more for the hybrid. So at $2.579, that buys me 2,908 gals or (37-41 mpg)107,600-119,232 miles ( 50 miles R/T per day)or 5.9 yrs - 6.53 years of commuting."-end quote
First off and most importantly, that is not an "apples to apples" comparison.
The $12,500 Civic is FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR less of a car than the Civic Hybrid. That's like comparing a bare bones hibachi grill to a top of the line Weber Grillmaster.
Comparison Rated Invalid !! "No Soup For You !!" :shades:
You are missing the repeated mention of dollar calculations and the purpose (plain Jane commute). You are entitled to even use a custom Bentley to commute if you would like. So according to your logic the Civic hybrid is FAR FAR FAR, etc, inferior.
Come on now stay with the relevance here. I am speaking of a "JOE AVERAGE" commute. If you conclude my commute is cheaper, hey you can still buy a Civic Hybrid (HCL) or even a $400,000 Bentley.
Well I am sure the Prius/HCL sell at a premium also! SO WHAT?? If you're ok with it: you buy. If you are not: don't buy. I didn't buy either the Prius or the HCL....
Both have 160 watt AM/FM CD. Both have ABS as standard Both have front and side airbags Both have cruise control Both have power windows Both have security system with remote entry Both have AC
Hybrid adds alloy wheels and automatic AC for the $4540 hybrid premium. What a DUD!
Then there is the issue of the diesel premium (an oxymoron if you ask me!!). I've read some people paying 5 grand over sticker. When you compare the content of a Prius (fully loaded) to the content of a TDI Jetta there is no comparison. More legroom in the Prius, NAV, Xenons, Bluetooth and the list goes on!!! Prius!!!
Gotta love it!!!
TDI= 1 on the pollution scale!! THe lowest score!! Think before you even try one!! Think of our planet!!
larsbThey were quoted $4400 higher than the gas version.
Don't know why, don't care why, but that actually happened. If it happened to them, it happened to others too.
There are two dealers selling TDI's for invoice right now.
How many dealers will sell a Prius or hybrid Civic at invoice?
The premium for diesel is reasonable, the premium for hybrid is outrageous. Don't care why, don't care that "sometime in the future of hybrid crystal balls the price premium will be reduced 50%".
Passions are starting to run high and we're on the edge of turning this thing personal (again), so let's take a breath and turn down the heat just a tad.
Thank you gagrice. If you want to see the diffrence between a gas Jetta/Bug and a diesel Jetta/Bug go to VW's web site www.vw.com and build one of each.
Have a co-worker who just bought a Beetle last month. Her husband is a certified diesel mechanic, and they wanted the diesel.
They were quoted $4400 higher than the gas version.
Being that you like to compare apples to apples. Was the Beetle they were quoted a PKG # 2. If so that adds $3145 to the price. Again, only a fool would pay MSRP or above for any car on the planet. A Beetle TDI with DSG auto will get as good mileage in real world driving as any Prius or HCH. If you are fortunate as I am to have access to ULSD, you can rest assured you are doing your part to save on oil and keep the air cleaner.
You really should do something about the air quality in Phoenix, yuck. You cannot blame that on the few VW TDIs on the road.
quote Gagrice-"You really should do something about the air quality in Phoenix, yuck. You cannot blame that on the few VW TDIs on the road."-end quote
I did - I bought an HCH !! I'm getting 48+ MPG !! :shades:
Actually, we get a lot of the dirty SoCal air arriving here in the Valley of the Sun. A study a few years ago said that even if we completely eliminated our own generated dirty air (which is of course impossible) that we would still have bad air days because of the jetstream bringing us SoCal air.
For those interested... the Beetle has the same engine as the Jetta. i.e. rated a ONE on a scale of 1-10. That means it is the WORSE polluter that the EPA can measure on that scale. Why would someone pay a premium to drive the most dirtiest car sold in the USA? Make you wanna go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I am so glad that a company like Honda and Toyota has given us alternatives. I am very glad we have Edmunds to expose the dirty tricks of the auto manufacturers touting mileage of the CRD/TDI but failing to tout their contribution to the air we breath.
Look, we can all (and most have) turn(ed) blue in the face arguing about this "hybrid premium" thing. I'm so, so very beyond TIRED of it.
The facts are that it varies "car deal by car deal." Me personally, I paid $1524 more for my hybrid than the next lowest available Civic I would buy, the EX. My "premium" will be made up in gas savings in less than 3 years.
For anyone who buys a hybrid and waits 14 years to recoup the costs, more power to you.
The wait for constructive feedback is a long one...
What the diesel supports still have not provided is an explanation of how they will appeal to "joe consumer".
MPG, Emissions, and Acceleration are obvious selling features. All of which come up short with the automatic diesel. That's why hybrids are gaining attention.
"For anyone who buys a hybrid and waits 14 years to recoup the costs, more power to you.
But that's not my case."
Again, not to beat a dead horse, but it does NOT take 14 years to recoup the costs. Assuming the "NEED" for a commuter car, the cost recovery is IMMEDIATE vs your understanding/statement of the process taking 14 years!! Most folks ignore this to their own detriment or their own economic peril. So truly, to each their own.
So for example, if I take the extra step ( I will admit to you that the MAJORITY of folks DO NOT do this) of putting the 12,500 SAVED (by not buying the Prius, in my case) in a dividend bearing instrument say 3-22% I am actually MAKING $375. to $2,750 per year or $32.00- $229.00 per month. So you are wondering how much monthly gas this buys? This of course is not to mention that I still have the $12,500. But given that other old popular saying: YOU CAN LEAD A HORSE TO WATER, but you can NOT make him DRINK; I will let the matter drop.
While it's not as trendy as a Hybrid, my 2004 Civic LX 5-speed did pretty well, too. I lost $3,200 over the price of it NEW, in an 18 month time period and put 41,000 miles on it. I paid $15,100 and sold it for $11,900 without putting any money into it (other than scheduled maintenance). I'd like to hear from some Hybrid owners who purchased their vehicle NEW and put over 40,000 miles on it and lost less than the $3,200 that I lost. Also, I'd like to hear from some Hybrid owners who have more than 100,000 miles on their car to see how resellable they are after the battery pack is well out of warranty (unless you live in California).
Comments
The Church of Perpetual Denial?
I'm not in denial about anything.
HEHEHEHEHEHE !
The "price they are selling for now" has ZERO to do with profit for Toyota Corporation.
Any markups people are paying go to the DEALERS, not to Toyota. Toyota sells EVERY Prius for EXACTLY the same price to EVERY dealer, as do ALL the car companies. Every Avalanche configured with Options X sells for the same price to all the dealers.
Toyota is also in the process of engineering 50% less cost into the hybrids, so when that happens, they start making more money per Prius sold.
" If diesels pollute, I won't commute!!!"
But at the same time, there is an element of truth here. Not all Prius allocations are equal.
So as an example the higher volume dealerships are probably more likely "worthy" to get a higher % and volume of the cars they WANT to sell.
From August 8th 2005 through December 19th 2005, my Civic Hybrid has achieved this:
3,070 total miles driven (99% city driving)
$134.66 spent on fuel
135 days total
about $1 per day in fuel costs
about 4.4 cents per mile in fuel costs
about 49.3 miles per gallon
average fuel price paid was $2.579 per gallon
I could expect no better than this from anything this side of a Honda Insight. Hooray for Hybrids !! :shades:
I took a 10 year old Toyota LANDCRUISER to the "SMOG ONLY" test station (much more disingenuous, if you wish to hear the full tale) that in my (humble) opinion BADLY needed a tune up, and it past with absolutely FLYING colors!!!! I compared the original smog certs and the 10 year SMOG ONLY test station. The later results were almost better than the originals!! Keep in mind I have been doing 15,000 mile oil change intervals, etc, etc. So the whole process is totally disingenuous, given the fed regulations, manufacturing standards and the results of those tests.
My new sig:
If diesels pollute, I won't commute!! Hey.. I like that!!
quote ruking1-"The other point is if they increase the supply of Prius'(magic wand scenario here) they will not be able to sell it for the prices they are now. (relatively)"-end quote
Did you mean to say that Toyota would LOWER the price it sold Priuses to the dealers if the supply went up? Or did you mean to say that if Priuses were in higher supply that dealers would not be marking them up? Which one?
It is more challenging than amusing. Trying to figure out where all the misinformation is coming from. It has to be those phoney Toyota ads about saving the environment with a few sparsely sold hybrids.
You never answered a question on Prius production. How can Ford in less than a year double the output of their brand new Ford Mustang? When after almost 3 years the car company with all the money cannot catch up with the Prius. And the Mustang did outsell the Prius by a very sizable margin. If Toyota was at all interested in the environment they would flood the market with the Prius. I think they know they have just about reached the peak of sales potential. Why build a car that they cannot make a pile of cash on?
My point exactly - they are building it because it's GREEN, and NOT because "it makes them a lot of green."
They are not "flooding the market with them" because even if they COULD (which they cant because of supply issues) or if they did, Hybrids would only sell a few more thousand than they do now because of the extra cost.
Just like the VW Beetle sells WAY fewer diesel Beetles because of the $4400 added cost for the diesel model.
Once Toyota cuts hybrid component costs by 50% as has been challenged to their engineers, then two things will happen:
Priuses will be cheaper to build
Toyota will make more money on each hybrid
Then they can consider it more of a money maker for them.
Just wait until the Hybrid Camry hits the streets at $26K and a 40/33 rating.....That pup is going to FLY off the lots....
From August 8th 2005 through December 19th 2005, my Civic Hybrid has achieved this:
3,070 total miles driven (99% city driving)
$134.66 spent on fuel
135 days total
about $1 per day in fuel costs
about 4.4 cents per mile in fuel costs
about 49.3 miles per gallon
average fuel price paid was $2.579 per gallon
I could expect no better than this from anything this side of a Honda Insight. Hooray for Hybrids !! :shades: "[unquote]
I think most folks would be glad for you!! However, tell the whole story.
Just substitue your numbers with mine on a Civic. My range is 37-41 to your 49.3
The difference at the time I was quoted $20,000 for the Civic Hybrid vs $12,500 for the Civic or $7,500 more for the hybrid. So at $2.579, that buys me 2,908 gals or (37-41 mpg)107,600-119,232 miles (@ 50 miles R/T per day)or 5.9 yrs - 6.53 years of commuting.
You are listening to the uninformed way too much. The price difference in the Beetle with TDI is about $1200, that includes the very fine DSG transmission. Something the Toyota & Honda need to look into.
You are also dreaming if you think that the Camry hybrid will sell for $26k or that Toyota will cut hybrid costs by 50%. I will bet you any amount you would like that the MSRP of the Prius does not come down in the next 5 years. If they ever meet the demand the gouging may subside. That is all someone has to look forward to if they buy a hybrid. Even the lowly 2006 HCH has an asking price just under $27k on the lot closest to me. Only a FOOL would pay that much for one. I told the salesman if he finds a sucker that I would like his phone number. I got all kinds of ocean front property in AZ to sell him.
First off and most importantly, that is not an "apples to apples" comparison.
The $12,500 Civic is FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR less of a car than the Civic Hybrid. That's like comparing a bare bones hibachi grill to a top of the line Weber Grillmaster.
Comparison Rated Invalid !! "No Soup For You !!" :shades:
New Beetle 2.5 $17180
New Beetle TDI $18390
Difference is NOT $4400, not unless you are thinking of the cost difference of HYBRIDS!!! LOL!!
Come on now stay with the relevance here. I am speaking of a "JOE AVERAGE" commute. If you conclude my commute is cheaper, hey you can still buy a Civic Hybrid (HCL) or even a $400,000 Bentley.
They were quoted $4400 higher than the gas version.
Don't know why, don't care why, but that actually happened. If it happened to them, it happened to others too.
2006 Civic LX automatic $17310 MSRP
Difference $4540 Ouch!! That is a lot of soup!
Both have 160 watt AM/FM CD.
Both have ABS as standard
Both have front and side airbags
Both have cruise control
Both have power windows
Both have security system with remote entry
Both have AC
Hybrid adds alloy wheels and automatic AC for the $4540 hybrid premium. What a DUD!
Gotta love it!!!
TDI= 1 on the pollution scale!! THe lowest score!! Think before you even try one!! Think of our planet!!
larsbThey were quoted $4400 higher than the gas version.
Don't know why, don't care why, but that actually happened. If it happened to them, it happened to others too.
There are two dealers selling TDI's for invoice right now.
How many dealers will sell a Prius or hybrid Civic at invoice?
The premium for diesel is reasonable, the premium for hybrid is outrageous.
Don't care why, don't care that "sometime in the future of hybrid crystal balls the price premium will be reduced 50%".
Thanks
Automatic climate control.
SIDE AIRBAG CURTAINS.
Variable speed intermittent wipers.
Emergency braking assist.
Turn signal mirrors.
Electric power steering
Audio *AND* cruise controls on steering wheel
Rear cupholders
External temperature display
And lastly but most importantly:
30/40 City/Hwy rating on LX
50/50 City/Hwy rating on HCH
(combined, LX loses 15 MPG overall)
SULEV rating on LX
AT-PZEV rating on HCH
Even the DX Civic has SIDE CURTAIN AIRBAGS as STANDARD.
LX adds reclining seatback.
LX 2 spd intermittent wipers
Electronic Brake Distribution
Hydraulic Power steering
Body Color Mirrors
Most importantly, it adds $4540 to your bank account!
I don't care if the emissions are bin 1 tier 10 as long as it is legal to purchase.
They were quoted $4400 higher than the gas version.
Being that you like to compare apples to apples. Was the Beetle they were quoted a PKG # 2. If so that adds $3145 to the price. Again, only a fool would pay MSRP or above for any car on the planet. A Beetle TDI with DSG auto will get as good mileage in real world driving as any Prius or HCH. If you are fortunate as I am to have access to ULSD, you can rest assured you are doing your part to save on oil and keep the air cleaner.
You really should do something about the air quality in Phoenix, yuck. You cannot blame that on the few VW TDIs on the road.
I did - I bought an HCH !! I'm getting 48+ MPG !! :shades:
Actually, we get a lot of the dirty SoCal air arriving here in the Valley of the Sun. A study a few years ago said that even if we completely eliminated our own generated dirty air (which is of course impossible) that we would still have bad air days because of the jetstream bringing us SoCal air.
Which is completely eliminated in about 5 years because of gas you had to buy because you were dumb enough to pass on the hybrid !!!
I guess the savings of 14 years of commuting gas by NOT buying a hybrid was lost on you?
Another tenant at the worship services in the church of perpetual denial?
The facts are that it varies "car deal by car deal." Me personally, I paid $1524 more for my hybrid than the next lowest available Civic I would buy, the EX. My "premium" will be made up in gas savings in less than 3 years.
For anyone who buys a hybrid and waits 14 years to recoup the costs, more power to you.
But that's not my case.
What the diesel supports still have not provided is an explanation of how they will appeal to "joe consumer".
MPG, Emissions, and Acceleration are obvious selling features. All of which come up short with the automatic diesel. That's why hybrids are gaining attention.
JOHN
But that's not my case."
Again, not to beat a dead horse, but it does NOT take 14 years to recoup the costs. Assuming the "NEED" for a commuter car, the cost recovery is IMMEDIATE vs your understanding/statement of the process taking 14 years!! Most folks ignore this to their own detriment or their own economic peril. So truly, to each their own.
So for example, if I take the extra step ( I will admit to you that the MAJORITY of folks DO NOT do this) of putting the 12,500 SAVED (by not buying the Prius, in my case) in a dividend bearing instrument say 3-22% I am actually MAKING $375. to $2,750 per year or $32.00- $229.00 per month. So you are wondering how much monthly gas this buys?
I bought my *USED* 2004 Honda Civic Hybrid manual tranny for $19,324 on July 11th, 2004. It had 4822 miles on it.
Today, it has 27,000 miles on it.
I did an Edmunds Private Party TMV on it:
$18,366
I did a KBB Private Party Sale on it:
$19,205
Averaged, that comes to $18,785.50 as a price which I could most likely sell the car for.
That's only $538.50 of lost resale value in 17 months and 22,178 miles of driving.
Challenge to all the Hybrid Doubters:
Show me ANY NON-HYBRID NON-COLLECTIBLE vehicle which has held it's value that well in the last 17 months.
Hybrid break even
Warner
Warner
Warner