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Comments
To average Joe citizen the Prius is
"vaporware". Have you tried to find one to test drive? I have in 3 states over the last one and a half years. None available for test drives. Two of those dealers told me I would be better off with a Camry. Until Toyota loosens the production strings the Prius will be a Hollywood novelty car.
All talk and no cars!
Jetta even outsold Prius in November. Not sure how many were TDI. I do know they are gouging the TDIs just like the Prius and HCH.
My friend just bought the new Jetta and the big selling point was the Corolla rear on the car. I guess VW has ran out of design ideas.
Once again
C & D got 52 in city driving with their Prius
they got low 30's with their TDI. I drive mixed. Need I say more??? Oh the Prius also finished ahead of the TDI. The Honda won!!
As you stand clear, I would buy!! Interesting that the environmental wackos want to ban diesel!!
Once again
C & D got 52 in city driving with their Prius
they got low 30's with their TDI. I drive mixed. Need I say more??? Oh the Prius also finished ahead of the TDI. The Honda won!!
But I do think you might want to hold off on those predictions until we are able to take a good look at what ULSD will do for us here in the states, ESPECIALLY when ULSD-hybrids start hitting the shelves. We'll see what the truth will be, but I have high hopes for 70mpg, SULEV, and ground-scorching torque, all in one package. Maybe i'm being too optimistic ... maybe not.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The one pollutant that biodiesel does increase is NOx. That is easily remedied with an additive or minor modifications to the diesel engine.
When USLD comes into being in the U.S. this coming year, then far more effective emissions control will come to fruition for diesels. A RAV-4 with the 2.0L four pollutes more than my CRD in terms of CO2, HC and CO than my 2.8L CRD.
Easy yes, but expensive.
That's why there simply isn't any talk about rolling out SULEV diesels to the market. The extra cost makes it impractical in comparison to a gas hybrid. Cleansing technology isn't cheap.
JOHN
Edit: Looked back to check out TDI. It does well with CO2 (scored an 8) but did HORRIBLE with the air pollution score (it scored a 1!!!). That to me is more important because this contributes to smog and other sorts of problems. I can't believe intelligent people here would sanction driving such filthy vehicles. I keep learning stuff every day on this forum. Thanks Winter2 for having me delve into that research.
Once this action is fully implemented, 2.6 million tons of smog-causing nitrogen oxide emissions will be reduced each year. Soot or particulate matter will be reduced by 110,000 tons a year. An estimated 8,300 premature deaths, 5,500 cases of chronic bronchitis and 17,600 cases of acute bronchitis in children will also be prevented annually. It is also estimated to help avoid more than 360,000 asthma attacks and 386,000 cases of respiratory symptoms in asthmatic children every year. In addition, 1.5 million lost work days, 7,100 hospital visits and 2,400 emergency room visits for asthma will be prevented.
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/diesel.htm
EPA mandates that by 2005 the nation's largest oil refiners must reduce the sulfur content of gasoline by 90%, from an average of 300 parts per million (ppm) to 30 ppm.
http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/v33_3_00/emissions.htm
falconone #1560 We're talking US. Please try and follow the thread. TIA. Try to be polite!!!
Todays economy is a global one. Technology used in the EU is may easily show up in North America. Diesel in EU vs. Hybrid in North America is a relevant and contructive comparison.
FYI, your statement regarding price advantage of diesel in Europe is incorrect. (per todays prices)Diesel is more expensive than petrol in UK, diesel and gas are same price in France, diesel is more expensive in Switzerland, diesel are equal price in Spain. Diesels have higher cost than gas vehicles in UK, there is no tax break for them in UK as there are tax breaks for hybrids in US, and popularity of diesels continue to increase market share. Majority of all passenger cars sold in Europe are now diesel.
Bottom line is that acceptance of hybrids will likely increase in Europe and diesel acceptance will increase in North America.
If someone would have driven a Prius for the last 5 years using only high-sulfur gas, they would indeed have a less effective catalytic-converter due to sulfur build up.
But since LOW-SULFUR GAS IS NOW AVAILABLE NATIONWIDE due to the federal mandate beginning in just 12 days, this is totally completely a non-issue for recent & new Prius owners.
That dramatic reduction in sulfur makes your statement senseless spreading of obsolete information. In other words, intentional FUD.
The ethanol comment is too. All I've ever used is E10. And with a lifetime average above 49 MPG, there's certainly no reason to complain.
JOHN
Anyone have documents showing that the 2006 Prius gets better than an 8 for all but the 5 CARB States? If emissions and CO2 are both very important to you I guess the Civic GX is your choice.
As long as we are on the subject. How is it that Ford can build a PZEV Focus entry level car and Toyota fails with their entry level Corolla & Scions?
What about the people that have had to pay out of pocket $2000 to have the catalytic convertor replaced. You are assuming that all refineries will live up to the mandate. 30 PPM seems like a lot to leave in there when they want the diesel to be 15 PPM. The old double standard.
You want to go for real clean run E85 in your Prius. One of the regular posters here says it will run just fine on ethanol.
If what you say is true that the first of the year all gas will be 30 PPM sulfur and that it is a non issue. The same should hold true for diesel cars. ULSD is mandated for 2006. 90% of the refineries have said they will be on line with ULSD by June. So what's the gripe with owning a diesel? Is the 1 rating on the diesel any worse than the 1 rating on the Corolla Sport or any number of other Toyota models?
Do you have any test results of current diesel engines running on ULSD? Or is your diesel hyperbole just uninformed feelings?
First off it is only a non issue in CA. There to get the PZEV rating you have to warrant the emissions system for 15 years and 150k miles. It was not just a Prius issue. It was for any one that foolishly bought a SULEV rated vehicle and drove it where the gas was high in sulfur. You sound like you think the damage already done to the catalytic convertor will go away when the gas is cleaner. It will fail and the owner will have a big fat bill to replace it.
Which would really give the coal industry a shot in the arm. Additionally, there would be no need to import coal as the US has some of the world's largest reserves.
All you folks complaining about the pollution aspects better get it all out of your system now because, come next fall, everything changes.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=108445
Gotta love it!! Don't forget folks... it scores a 9.5 by the EPA and the TDI scores a 1. Think of your children and grandchildren before buying the current diesels.
Change is inevitable. Many think we have reached automotive Nirvana with the Prius. That is as far from reality as one can get.
More correct would be to say:
The Prius has come as close to "Auto Nirvana" as we in the USA have ever seen.
That's because the Prius is the cleanest, highest mileage midsize car the USA has ever seen.
From what many consider to be the best car company in the world.
With a 94% owner satisfaction rating.
Which has sold more that any other hybrid in the world.
Which won more worldwide vehicle excellence awards for the model year 2004 than any other car before or since.
Which will eventually be known as the car which put hybrids on the map.
That's not "Nirvana" but I challenge anyone to say any other car is closer to it.
Car companies are in business to make money.
The point is that Toyota has put more Hybrids on the road than any other company, by far.
And Toyota is also preparing a Tokyo City manufacturing plant to produce a Prius per minute. Once that is completed, they will have all the capacity they need/want to produce all the Priuses they can sell, based on component parts they can acquire.
Remember: Toyota has proclaimed many times that they will be selling a million hybrids a year sometime in the next decade. Only Ford, who has promised to sell 250,000 per year, has come anywhere close to that commitment.
What if the Prius batteries are charged at the factory by burning coal, old tires, and styrofoam cups? How does that figure into your calculations?
That is in CA. In most of the USA it only garners an 8 on the EPA charts. Several other cars including the Accord are available with a 9 rating in all 50 states. We know it is possible to get the same average mileage with the Accord 4 cylinder, with more room and comfort.
Maybe you should say it is the cleanest, decent mileage, midsize, hatchback, poor handling, sedan. There are a lot of PZEV options that don't cost an arm and a leg. The Prius has very questionable reliability. Oh, most of those quotes & accolades you rely on are from before the car was available to the general public. It was all media hype brought on by a few Hollywood types that probably were given the cars as a promotion.
You are better off worshiping Exxon than Toyota. Without the oil companies your hybrids are stuck in the driveway. At least I can go to McDonalds and get old french fry oil to run my car. Try that in a Prius.
As for soot, diesels don't put much out any more. Step out of your acid washed jeans, fold your collar back down and step into the current decade.
Actually I was being kind using the 7500 figure (no good turn goes unpunished eh?) . When I was considering the 2004/2005 Prius at 25,000 for a plain Jane 50 mile R/T commute, I actually bought a 12,500 Honda Civic. So as you can deduce, 12,500 is the real figure. Now I have to tell you I was sorely tempted to buy the Prius. Due to a 19 year longstanding relationship, the local dealer offered me less than MSRP (closer to invoice). The 2004/2005 Corolla was on the table also, but I digress. But even at that price I subscribe to Gagrice's take on not paying MSRP.
Now I am not asking YOU to use the same criteria for selection, as you are advocating people following YOUR methods, but I did ask (myself) what would 12,500 buy me MORE OF; to do this daily plain Jane commute. Coincidently, I could have bought another Civic/Corolla. But more to the point, the 12,500 will buy @$2.00 per gal-6,250 gals of gas x 37-41 mpg that I do get on the Civic =231,250-256,250 miles/50=4625/5125 days/365= 12.67-14.04 YEARS of commuting.
My relative gets 70 mpg cruising on interstate based on digital readout.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
When was the last time you smelled a modern diesel? I just moved back from Canada, which has a higher proportion of diesel cars, and I NEVER knew when I was following a diesel by the smell, except the occasional poorly maintained late 70's or early 80's Mercedes.
Just yesterday I was following a smoking, stinking GAS truck. It was old and obviously poorly maintained. Does this prove gassers are stinky and smelly polluters? Of course not!
All I'm saying is keep it in perspective. Both hybrids and diesels are good ways to reduce our consumption of oil.
Who knows that? Accord 4 cyl can consistently achieve 48 MPG combined driving?
The only person I know who can get 48 MPG in an Accord got 109 MPG in a Prius.
No it won't.
All ULSD does is catch up diesel to the level gas was at in 2005. It still will not reach SULEV, which is the baseline we are striving for.
60,000,000 new vehicles per year worldwide adds up to quite a problem, even with SULEV. But since the diesels don't deliver that, they are below par... not good enough.
JOHN
Especially the diesel buses in NYC. What's with that? The cabbies must be loving it. Not a chance I would live under those conditions. The CO2 from the concentration of people breathing is probably a big share of Global Warming.
You are right about modern diesel engines. No one on this board has come up with any factual document to refute that a modern diesel engine running on ULSD is any more harmful than a gasoline engine. It is all opinion based on 25 year old experience & hearsay.
The EU has embraced ULSD as the best way to save on fossil fuel & cut GHG. The NOx can be handled with a Urea filter that does not cost as much as the catalytic convertor in a Prius.
The current hybrid technology is an overly complex high cost solution, that will not be embraced by the general public. Until someone offers a simple series hybrid it is going to be a niche market.
It is also funny how they TOTALLY leave out the fact that at that time also 99.9% of the vehicles ran on LEADED REGULAR FUEL. AS IF THOSE VEHICLES AND THAT LEADED GAS CAUSED NO POLLUTION.
Do you have any EPA documents to back up your assertion? Or is this more opinion? Both Ford and Mercedes have demonstrated PZEV diesels to the EPA. I would imagine that Toyota and Honda could catch up in a few years if they set out to do that.
This "we" that is striving have not come up with many alternatives to the Prius. I would say that if Toyota were to dump all their fat profit vehicles and just build the Prius they could not make enough for all of us to have a car. They are already hedging on additional hybrids, claiming PARTS shortages. Without the additional 33% of parts in the Prius you got NO car to sell. I can guarantee Toyota will not cut off their nose to spite their face. They will only build enough hybrids to keep that GREEN glow they are feeling right now.