Until it is actually available, it is only vaporware.
To average Joe citizen the Prius is "vaporware". Have you tried to find one to test drive? I have in 3 states over the last one and a half years. None available for test drives. Two of those dealers told me I would be better off with a Camry. Until Toyota loosens the production strings the Prius will be a Hollywood novelty car.
All talk and no cars!
Jetta even outsold Prius in November. Not sure how many were TDI. I do know they are gouging the TDIs just like the Prius and HCH.
So you do subscribe to 48.3 is MORE than 50 mpg? Ain't it terrible that your own mathematics work against you? I will judge your credibility accordingly. Next time I do that stretch, I will go 80 mph (to match the speed you say) Odds are I will get even better than 50 mpg. My swag is 52/53 mpg.
Of course not. But when diesel is $0.60 more per gallon I sure do!! Like I said... I stand clear of diesels until they're clean. Right now they're not.
Once again
C & D got 52 in city driving with their Prius they got low 30's with their TDI. I drive mixed. Need I say more??? Oh the Prius also finished ahead of the TDI. The Honda won!!
Of course not. But when diesel is $0.60 more per gallon I sure do!! Like I said... I stand clear of diesels until they're clean. Right now they're not.
Once again
C & D got 52 in city driving with their Prius they got low 30's with their TDI. I drive mixed. Need I say more??? Oh the Prius also finished ahead of the TDI. The Honda won!!
But I do think you might want to hold off on those predictions until we are able to take a good look at what ULSD will do for us here in the states, ESPECIALLY when ULSD-hybrids start hitting the shelves. We'll see what the truth will be, but I have high hopes for 70mpg, SULEV, and ground-scorching torque, all in one package. Maybe i'm being too optimistic ... maybe not.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Not anti-diesel at all. I think you realize that. I am against dirty diesel which is what we have now. I do NOT own a Prius nor do I intend to buy one. If I had to choose between a TDI and a Prius I believe you know my choice. Bring a clean fuel efficient diesel with low NVH and I will consider it. Until then, there are no choices. The VW TDI is too bland, boring, and it's a VW.
Is biodiesel a bad solution? No it is a better solution than gasolene. Gasolene is a one way fuel made from either coal or petroleum. Ethanol, an extender for gasolene degrades fuel economy in the vast majority of gassers including the Prius and Honda hybrid.
The one pollutant that biodiesel does increase is NOx. That is easily remedied with an additive or minor modifications to the diesel engine.
When USLD comes into being in the U.S. this coming year, then far more effective emissions control will come to fruition for diesels. A RAV-4 with the 2.0L four pollutes more than my CRD in terms of CO2, HC and CO than my 2.8L CRD.
If the automakers really want to push fuel economy, what about a diesel hybrid. While they are at it, they could make it biodiesel compatible. Super Green!
The RAV4 does not have a 2 liter four. I believe its base engine is a 2.4 liter SULV which is better than the CRD. If I am incorrect, please post some links. Surprising that the CRD would be cleaner than a PZEV or SULV. If so, why is it outlawed for sale as new in CA/NY etc???? I'm so confused now!!!!
> The one pollutant that biodiesel does increase is NOx. That is easily remedied with an additive or minor modifications to the diesel engine.
Easy yes, but expensive.
That's why there simply isn't any talk about rolling out SULEV diesels to the market. The extra cost makes it impractical in comparison to a gas hybrid. Cleansing technology isn't cheap.
Just went to the government's EPA site and the CRD is horrible!!! It has a score of 1 on the air pollution score out of a 1-10 scale. NOT GOOD!!!! For greenhouse gas it scored a 4 out of 10. The 2.4 liter engine in the RAV4 scored a 7 on both scales. Not great, but definitely better than the CRD. The Prius scored a 9.5 on both.
Edit: Looked back to check out TDI. It does well with CO2 (scored an 8) but did HORRIBLE with the air pollution score (it scored a 1!!!). That to me is more important because this contributes to smog and other sorts of problems. I can't believe intelligent people here would sanction driving such filthy vehicles. I keep learning stuff every day on this forum. Thanks Winter2 for having me delve into that research.
Sulfur in diesel fuel must be lowered to enable modern pollution-control technology to be effective on these trucks and buses. The Agency will require a 97 percent reduction in the sulfur content of highway diesel fuel from its current level of 500 parts per million to 15 parts per million.
Once this action is fully implemented, 2.6 million tons of smog-causing nitrogen oxide emissions will be reduced each year. Soot or particulate matter will be reduced by 110,000 tons a year. An estimated 8,300 premature deaths, 5,500 cases of chronic bronchitis and 17,600 cases of acute bronchitis in children will also be prevented annually. It is also estimated to help avoid more than 360,000 asthma attacks and 386,000 cases of respiratory symptoms in asthmatic children every year. In addition, 1.5 million lost work days, 7,100 hospital visits and 2,400 emergency room visits for asthma will be prevented.
Ever wonder why some gas cars smell like rotten eggs. It is the sulfur in gasoline. There is still gas sold in this country that is causing pollution. The expensive ($2000 each) catalytic convertors in the SULEV cars are designed to cope with that sulfur. It does not always work and you have a big replacement cost. All is not rosy on the gasoline front. Some places like CA add ethanol as an oxygenator. That helps with the pollution and cuts your gas mileage. The fact of the matter is the Prius is not SULEV rated in most of the USA. The reason is it cannot clean the sulfur out of the gas. Honda has figured it out on the HCH, so it would seem. They are given a higher rating from the EPA than the Prius in the NON CARB states. So if being the absolute cleanest car is your goal, Honda is your only choice.
EPA mandates that by 2005 the nation's largest oil refiners must reduce the sulfur content of gasoline by 90%, from an average of 300 parts per million (ppm) to 30 ppm.
falconone #1589 Only reason diesels sell well in Europe is due to the price advantage that diesel has. Europeans would LOVE to have advantageous gas cars, but the price of fuel is very high.
falconone #1560 We're talking US. Please try and follow the thread. TIA. Try to be polite!!!
Todays economy is a global one. Technology used in the EU is may easily show up in North America. Diesel in EU vs. Hybrid in North America is a relevant and contructive comparison.
FYI, your statement regarding price advantage of diesel in Europe is incorrect. (per todays prices)Diesel is more expensive than petrol in UK, diesel and gas are same price in France, diesel is more expensive in Switzerland, diesel are equal price in Spain. Diesels have higher cost than gas vehicles in UK, there is no tax break for them in UK as there are tax breaks for hybrids in US, and popularity of diesels continue to increase market share. Majority of all passenger cars sold in Europe are now diesel.
Bottom line is that acceptance of hybrids will likely increase in Europe and diesel acceptance will increase in North America.
If someone would have driven a Prius for the last 5 years using only high-sulfur gas, they would indeed have a less effective catalytic-converter due to sulfur build up.
But since LOW-SULFUR GAS IS NOW AVAILABLE NATIONWIDE due to the federal mandate beginning in just 12 days, this is totally completely a non-issue for recent & new Prius owners.
That dramatic reduction in sulfur makes your statement senseless spreading of obsolete information. In other words, intentional FUD.
The ethanol comment is too. All I've ever used is E10. And with a lifetime average above 49 MPG, there's certainly no reason to complain.
While researching the EPA site I have found new higher ratings for the 2006 Volkswagen cars with the new 2.5 Liter engine. You can get the Golf, Beetle and Jetta with that engine rated a 9 for the NON CARB states with a 9.5 for the CARB States. That is higher than the Prius. Looking down through the Toyota lineup, they have many vehicles running on gas that are bigger polluters than the VW TDI.
Anyone have documents showing that the 2006 Prius gets better than an 8 for all but the 5 CARB States? If emissions and CO2 are both very important to you I guess the Civic GX is your choice.
As long as we are on the subject. How is it that Ford can build a PZEV Focus entry level car and Toyota fails with their entry level Corolla & Scions?
But since LOW-SULFUR GAS IS NOW AVAILABLE NATIONWIDE due to the federal mandate beginning in just 12 days, this is totally completely a non-issue for recent & new Prius owners.
What about the people that have had to pay out of pocket $2000 to have the catalytic convertor replaced. You are assuming that all refineries will live up to the mandate. 30 PPM seems like a lot to leave in there when they want the diesel to be 15 PPM. The old double standard.
You want to go for real clean run E85 in your Prius. One of the regular posters here says it will run just fine on ethanol.
If what you say is true that the first of the year all gas will be 30 PPM sulfur and that it is a non issue. The same should hold true for diesel cars. ULSD is mandated for 2006. 90% of the refineries have said they will be on line with ULSD by June. So what's the gripe with owning a diesel? Is the 1 rating on the diesel any worse than the 1 rating on the Corolla Sport or any number of other Toyota models?
Do you have any test results of current diesel engines running on ULSD? Or is your diesel hyperbole just uninformed feelings?
this is totally completely a non-issue for recent & new Prius owners.
First off it is only a non issue in CA. There to get the PZEV rating you have to warrant the emissions system for 15 years and 150k miles. It was not just a Prius issue. It was for any one that foolishly bought a SULEV rated vehicle and drove it where the gas was high in sulfur. You sound like you think the damage already done to the catalytic convertor will go away when the gas is cleaner. It will fail and the owner will have a big fat bill to replace it.
For those that are interested. As of the end of November Prius had sold 98,870 cars. Complaints filed with the NHTSA Office of Defects on the 2005 Prius, was 87. To keep this in perspective a car many consider less than reliable the VW Jetta only had 6 complaints on 88,055 cars sold in the same period. You can draw your own conclusions. None of the 6 problems on the Jetta were towed to the dealer. None were diesels. All the accolades and awards don't make the person being towed to the dealer any less unhappy with their car.
Not to mention that diesel can easily be made from coal (coal gasification).
Which would really give the coal industry a shot in the arm. Additionally, there would be no need to import coal as the US has some of the world's largest reserves.
it is absolutely amazing the so called environmentalists who advocate the use of unleaded regular fuel, simultaneously want us to use far less of it and to be less dependent on "foreign oil" while knowing there are no currently viable domestic sources that can supply the need. They of course DO NOT want coal to be USED.
For now... we have the diesel advocates promoting cars that score a 1 (lowest score) for the CRD and the TDI. We have people right now in this country driving around in these vehicles polluting the air we breath. How nice!!! Finally, I'd like to make an informal wager that NO Japanese manufacturers are going to bring diesel cars to North America (within the next 3 years). They know they'll fail. Remember folks...if you're driving a CRD or a TDI you're driving a 1!! If you're driving a Prius... you're driving a 9.5!!! Sweeet.... Let's also not forget the wonderful VW network. You know.. the ones that are marking up the few TDIs out there by 5 grand!! Lastly... diesel is more expensive in the NE by nearly $0.60.
Well that's for sure. The new VW 2.5 engine is a 5 cylinder that barely is quicker than a Prius. Pathetic to say the least. Most automotive journalists do not like the new styles/performance either. Regardless, I'll never own another one. In the meantime Edmunds still claims the Prius is the reigning champ: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=108445
Gotta love it!! Don't forget folks... it scores a 9.5 by the EPA and the TDI scores a 1. Think of your children and grandchildren before buying the current diesels.
Between Honda and Toyota they will outsell by a great margin all the diesel cars sold in the US. There are very few choices for plain old passenger vehicles. You have the overpriced E class and the unreliable VW. Take your pick! As Edmunds stated, the Prius IS the standard by which other hybrids are judged. Regardless of the software issues which have been addressed it will ULTIMATELY be more reliable than ANY VW. Don't forget... VW has sites solely dedicated to LEMONS!!
The fact of the matter is cars sold are meet all current legal requirements. So if one wants to pay app 7500 more to operate a Prius, for sure I have nothing against it. But again for sure, if Toyota was so "GREEN" they would step up the volume and % of these vehicles This would include cutting the volume and % of some of the lines they do carry, and up to and including some lines themselves. This is NOT going to happen, for the Prius lets a whole lot more profitable cars in the Toyota line to be continued to be sold and at ever increasing prices. So even if one does not like VW, the fact of the matter is over the "LINE" they use less fuel than over the Toyota line. So it is interesting that you have bought into the smoke screen hook line and sinker.
The Prius is not one of Toyota's most profitable cars.
Car companies are in business to make money.
The point is that Toyota has put more Hybrids on the road than any other company, by far.
And Toyota is also preparing a Tokyo City manufacturing plant to produce a Prius per minute. Once that is completed, they will have all the capacity they need/want to produce all the Priuses they can sell, based on component parts they can acquire.
Remember: Toyota has proclaimed many times that they will be selling a million hybrids a year sometime in the next decade. Only Ford, who has promised to sell 250,000 per year, has come anywhere close to that commitment.
Not sure where you got that 7500 figure from. A Prius base price is 21,xxx. Let me reiterate I do NOT own a Prius nor do I intend to purchase one at this time. I will however use the Ford/Volvo Mazda3 Volvo S40 as an example of what people should drive if the want to be green (PZEV). Also the Accord is another fine example. Take the Prius out of the equation all together. I will NOT condone buying a diesel car to achieve high mileage at the expense of OUR environment. Don't forget folks.... TDI/CRD scored a 1!!!!!!!! That is AS LOW AS YOU CAN GET!!! Think GARBAGE TRUCK!!!! Buy a PZEV and you're GREEN!!!!
Read my prior post...forget the Prius for the time being. How is your car battery charged at the factory? How about the batteries we buy for our electronic toys? Coal, cups? The Prius (if you wish to rehash) generates its own electric to charge the traction battery. I have no idea how it is initially charged. Who cares anyhow? You think it makes a big difference? I'd be more concerned with the soot you're breathing when you're behind a diesel in traffic!!!
That's because the Prius is the cleanest, highest mileage midsize car the USA has ever seen.
That is in CA. In most of the USA it only garners an 8 on the EPA charts. Several other cars including the Accord are available with a 9 rating in all 50 states. We know it is possible to get the same average mileage with the Accord 4 cylinder, with more room and comfort.
Maybe you should say it is the cleanest, decent mileage, midsize, hatchback, poor handling, sedan. There are a lot of PZEV options that don't cost an arm and a leg. The Prius has very questionable reliability. Oh, most of those quotes & accolades you rely on are from before the car was available to the general public. It was all media hype brought on by a few Hollywood types that probably were given the cars as a promotion.
You are better off worshiping Exxon than Toyota. Without the oil companies your hybrids are stuck in the driveway. At least I can go to McDonalds and get old french fry oil to run my car. Try that in a Prius.
I can appreciate your position, but you are in the minority and misguided.
Actually I was being kind using the 7500 figure (no good turn goes unpunished eh?) . When I was considering the 2004/2005 Prius at 25,000 for a plain Jane 50 mile R/T commute, I actually bought a 12,500 Honda Civic. So as you can deduce, 12,500 is the real figure. Now I have to tell you I was sorely tempted to buy the Prius. Due to a 19 year longstanding relationship, the local dealer offered me less than MSRP (closer to invoice). The 2004/2005 Corolla was on the table also, but I digress. But even at that price I subscribe to Gagrice's take on not paying MSRP.
Now I am not asking YOU to use the same criteria for selection, as you are advocating people following YOUR methods, but I did ask (myself) what would 12,500 buy me MORE OF; to do this daily plain Jane commute. Coincidently, I could have bought another Civic/Corolla. But more to the point, the 12,500 will buy @$2.00 per gal-6,250 gals of gas x 37-41 mpg that I do get on the Civic =231,250-256,250 miles/50=4625/5125 days/365= 12.67-14.04 YEARS of commuting.
Somehow I don't think a TDI using diesel fuel is going to put out a lot more soot in 40 miles than a few of the 1000 semi trucks rolling past one point on I-70 are going to put on in 0.1 miles (collectively) or a single middle pollution level semi puts out in 1 miles. The diesel auto is _saving_ fuel drasticlly.
My relative gets 70 mpg cruising on interstate based on digital readout.
Let's face it, any new car, diesel, pzev, whatever puts out very few emissions. Yes diesel currently puts out more pm & nox, however much of the problem is the current dirty fuel, which will be solved by ULSD in less than a year.
When was the last time you smelled a modern diesel? I just moved back from Canada, which has a higher proportion of diesel cars, and I NEVER knew when I was following a diesel by the smell, except the occasional poorly maintained late 70's or early 80's Mercedes.
Just yesterday I was following a smoking, stinking GAS truck. It was old and obviously poorly maintained. Does this prove gassers are stinky and smelly polluters? Of course not!
All I'm saying is keep it in perspective. Both hybrids and diesels are good ways to reduce our consumption of oil.
> Yes diesel currently puts out more pm & nox, however much of the problem is the current dirty fuel, which will be solved by ULSD in less than a year.
No it won't.
All ULSD does is catch up diesel to the level gas was at in 2005. It still will not reach SULEV, which is the baseline we are striving for.
60,000,000 new vehicles per year worldwide adds up to quite a problem, even with SULEV. But since the diesels don't deliver that, they are below par... not good enough.
Especially the diesel buses in NYC. What's with that? The cabbies must be loving it. Not a chance I would live under those conditions. The CO2 from the concentration of people breathing is probably a big share of Global Warming.
You are right about modern diesel engines. No one on this board has come up with any factual document to refute that a modern diesel engine running on ULSD is any more harmful than a gasoline engine. It is all opinion based on 25 year old experience & hearsay.
The EU has embraced ULSD as the best way to save on fossil fuel & cut GHG. The NOx can be handled with a Urea filter that does not cost as much as the catalytic convertor in a Prius.
The current hybrid technology is an overly complex high cost solution, that will not be embraced by the general public. Until someone offers a simple series hybrid it is going to be a niche market.
"You are right about modern diesel engines. No one on this board has come up with any factual document to refute that a modern diesel engine running on ULSD is any more harmful than a gasoline engine. It is all opinion based on 25 year old experience & hearsay."
It is also funny how they TOTALLY leave out the fact that at that time also 99.9% of the vehicles ran on LEADED REGULAR FUEL. AS IF THOSE VEHICLES AND THAT LEADED GAS CAUSED NO POLLUTION.
Then I am glad you agree with the point I was making. (you might not grasp the depth here) The other point is if they increase the supply of Prius'(magic wand scenario here) they will not be able to sell it for the prices they are now. (relatively)
All ULSD does is catch up diesel to the level gas was at in 2005. It still will not reach SULEV, which is the baseline we are striving for.
Do you have any EPA documents to back up your assertion? Or is this more opinion? Both Ford and Mercedes have demonstrated PZEV diesels to the EPA. I would imagine that Toyota and Honda could catch up in a few years if they set out to do that.
This "we" that is striving have not come up with many alternatives to the Prius. I would say that if Toyota were to dump all their fat profit vehicles and just build the Prius they could not make enough for all of us to have a car. They are already hedging on additional hybrids, claiming PARTS shortages. Without the additional 33% of parts in the Prius you got NO car to sell. I can guarantee Toyota will not cut off their nose to spite their face. They will only build enough hybrids to keep that GREEN glow they are feeling right now.
I agree. I mean if diesels that are being sold now are so wonderful why can't you buy them in NY and CA? I know!! Is it because they have the most delegates???? Nah... its because we have lawmakers which are making it easier for us to BREATH. Can you imagine if Cameron Diaz drove up to the Academy Awards in a smoke belching TDI with a pollution value of :1: :sick: I am glad that Toyota is the leader in being green.
Also too Toyota/Honda (etc) world wide probably make more diesels than they do hybrids. So Larsh/ETC even as he/they worship/s at the church of perpetual denial, really hits the nail on the head by saying Toyota car companies goal is to make money. I think they have also missed the fact that Toyota is the NEW GM (market leader). This also probably goes without saying but the VAST majority of cars that Toyota/Honda (etc) make/s does NOT comply with the CA emissions regulations. If that were so ANY car in the USA and world wide should be able to be domiciled in CA. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Comments
To average Joe citizen the Prius is
"vaporware". Have you tried to find one to test drive? I have in 3 states over the last one and a half years. None available for test drives. Two of those dealers told me I would be better off with a Camry. Until Toyota loosens the production strings the Prius will be a Hollywood novelty car.
All talk and no cars!
Jetta even outsold Prius in November. Not sure how many were TDI. I do know they are gouging the TDIs just like the Prius and HCH.
My friend just bought the new Jetta and the big selling point was the Corolla rear on the car. I guess VW has ran out of design ideas.
Once again
C & D got 52 in city driving with their Prius
they got low 30's with their TDI. I drive mixed. Need I say more??? Oh the Prius also finished ahead of the TDI. The Honda won!!
As you stand clear, I would buy!! Interesting that the environmental wackos want to ban diesel!!
Once again
C & D got 52 in city driving with their Prius
they got low 30's with their TDI. I drive mixed. Need I say more??? Oh the Prius also finished ahead of the TDI. The Honda won!!
But I do think you might want to hold off on those predictions until we are able to take a good look at what ULSD will do for us here in the states, ESPECIALLY when ULSD-hybrids start hitting the shelves. We'll see what the truth will be, but I have high hopes for 70mpg, SULEV, and ground-scorching torque, all in one package. Maybe i'm being too optimistic ... maybe not.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The one pollutant that biodiesel does increase is NOx. That is easily remedied with an additive or minor modifications to the diesel engine.
When USLD comes into being in the U.S. this coming year, then far more effective emissions control will come to fruition for diesels. A RAV-4 with the 2.0L four pollutes more than my CRD in terms of CO2, HC and CO than my 2.8L CRD.
Easy yes, but expensive.
That's why there simply isn't any talk about rolling out SULEV diesels to the market. The extra cost makes it impractical in comparison to a gas hybrid. Cleansing technology isn't cheap.
JOHN
Edit: Looked back to check out TDI. It does well with CO2 (scored an 8) but did HORRIBLE with the air pollution score (it scored a 1!!!). That to me is more important because this contributes to smog and other sorts of problems. I can't believe intelligent people here would sanction driving such filthy vehicles. I keep learning stuff every day on this forum. Thanks Winter2 for having me delve into that research.
Once this action is fully implemented, 2.6 million tons of smog-causing nitrogen oxide emissions will be reduced each year. Soot or particulate matter will be reduced by 110,000 tons a year. An estimated 8,300 premature deaths, 5,500 cases of chronic bronchitis and 17,600 cases of acute bronchitis in children will also be prevented annually. It is also estimated to help avoid more than 360,000 asthma attacks and 386,000 cases of respiratory symptoms in asthmatic children every year. In addition, 1.5 million lost work days, 7,100 hospital visits and 2,400 emergency room visits for asthma will be prevented.
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/diesel.htm
EPA mandates that by 2005 the nation's largest oil refiners must reduce the sulfur content of gasoline by 90%, from an average of 300 parts per million (ppm) to 30 ppm.
http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/v33_3_00/emissions.htm
falconone #1560 We're talking US. Please try and follow the thread. TIA. Try to be polite!!!
Todays economy is a global one. Technology used in the EU is may easily show up in North America. Diesel in EU vs. Hybrid in North America is a relevant and contructive comparison.
FYI, your statement regarding price advantage of diesel in Europe is incorrect. (per todays prices)Diesel is more expensive than petrol in UK, diesel and gas are same price in France, diesel is more expensive in Switzerland, diesel are equal price in Spain. Diesels have higher cost than gas vehicles in UK, there is no tax break for them in UK as there are tax breaks for hybrids in US, and popularity of diesels continue to increase market share. Majority of all passenger cars sold in Europe are now diesel.
Bottom line is that acceptance of hybrids will likely increase in Europe and diesel acceptance will increase in North America.
If someone would have driven a Prius for the last 5 years using only high-sulfur gas, they would indeed have a less effective catalytic-converter due to sulfur build up.
But since LOW-SULFUR GAS IS NOW AVAILABLE NATIONWIDE due to the federal mandate beginning in just 12 days, this is totally completely a non-issue for recent & new Prius owners.
That dramatic reduction in sulfur makes your statement senseless spreading of obsolete information. In other words, intentional FUD.
The ethanol comment is too. All I've ever used is E10. And with a lifetime average above 49 MPG, there's certainly no reason to complain.
JOHN
Anyone have documents showing that the 2006 Prius gets better than an 8 for all but the 5 CARB States? If emissions and CO2 are both very important to you I guess the Civic GX is your choice.
As long as we are on the subject. How is it that Ford can build a PZEV Focus entry level car and Toyota fails with their entry level Corolla & Scions?
What about the people that have had to pay out of pocket $2000 to have the catalytic convertor replaced. You are assuming that all refineries will live up to the mandate. 30 PPM seems like a lot to leave in there when they want the diesel to be 15 PPM. The old double standard.
You want to go for real clean run E85 in your Prius. One of the regular posters here says it will run just fine on ethanol.
If what you say is true that the first of the year all gas will be 30 PPM sulfur and that it is a non issue. The same should hold true for diesel cars. ULSD is mandated for 2006. 90% of the refineries have said they will be on line with ULSD by June. So what's the gripe with owning a diesel? Is the 1 rating on the diesel any worse than the 1 rating on the Corolla Sport or any number of other Toyota models?
Do you have any test results of current diesel engines running on ULSD? Or is your diesel hyperbole just uninformed feelings?
First off it is only a non issue in CA. There to get the PZEV rating you have to warrant the emissions system for 15 years and 150k miles. It was not just a Prius issue. It was for any one that foolishly bought a SULEV rated vehicle and drove it where the gas was high in sulfur. You sound like you think the damage already done to the catalytic convertor will go away when the gas is cleaner. It will fail and the owner will have a big fat bill to replace it.
Which would really give the coal industry a shot in the arm. Additionally, there would be no need to import coal as the US has some of the world's largest reserves.
All you folks complaining about the pollution aspects better get it all out of your system now because, come next fall, everything changes.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=108445
Gotta love it!! Don't forget folks... it scores a 9.5 by the EPA and the TDI scores a 1. Think of your children and grandchildren before buying the current diesels.
Change is inevitable. Many think we have reached automotive Nirvana with the Prius. That is as far from reality as one can get.
More correct would be to say:
The Prius has come as close to "Auto Nirvana" as we in the USA have ever seen.
That's because the Prius is the cleanest, highest mileage midsize car the USA has ever seen.
From what many consider to be the best car company in the world.
With a 94% owner satisfaction rating.
Which has sold more that any other hybrid in the world.
Which won more worldwide vehicle excellence awards for the model year 2004 than any other car before or since.
Which will eventually be known as the car which put hybrids on the map.
That's not "Nirvana" but I challenge anyone to say any other car is closer to it.
Car companies are in business to make money.
The point is that Toyota has put more Hybrids on the road than any other company, by far.
And Toyota is also preparing a Tokyo City manufacturing plant to produce a Prius per minute. Once that is completed, they will have all the capacity they need/want to produce all the Priuses they can sell, based on component parts they can acquire.
Remember: Toyota has proclaimed many times that they will be selling a million hybrids a year sometime in the next decade. Only Ford, who has promised to sell 250,000 per year, has come anywhere close to that commitment.
What if the Prius batteries are charged at the factory by burning coal, old tires, and styrofoam cups? How does that figure into your calculations?
That is in CA. In most of the USA it only garners an 8 on the EPA charts. Several other cars including the Accord are available with a 9 rating in all 50 states. We know it is possible to get the same average mileage with the Accord 4 cylinder, with more room and comfort.
Maybe you should say it is the cleanest, decent mileage, midsize, hatchback, poor handling, sedan. There are a lot of PZEV options that don't cost an arm and a leg. The Prius has very questionable reliability. Oh, most of those quotes & accolades you rely on are from before the car was available to the general public. It was all media hype brought on by a few Hollywood types that probably were given the cars as a promotion.
You are better off worshiping Exxon than Toyota. Without the oil companies your hybrids are stuck in the driveway. At least I can go to McDonalds and get old french fry oil to run my car. Try that in a Prius.
As for soot, diesels don't put much out any more. Step out of your acid washed jeans, fold your collar back down and step into the current decade.
Actually I was being kind using the 7500 figure (no good turn goes unpunished eh?) . When I was considering the 2004/2005 Prius at 25,000 for a plain Jane 50 mile R/T commute, I actually bought a 12,500 Honda Civic. So as you can deduce, 12,500 is the real figure. Now I have to tell you I was sorely tempted to buy the Prius. Due to a 19 year longstanding relationship, the local dealer offered me less than MSRP (closer to invoice). The 2004/2005 Corolla was on the table also, but I digress. But even at that price I subscribe to Gagrice's take on not paying MSRP.
Now I am not asking YOU to use the same criteria for selection, as you are advocating people following YOUR methods, but I did ask (myself) what would 12,500 buy me MORE OF; to do this daily plain Jane commute. Coincidently, I could have bought another Civic/Corolla. But more to the point, the 12,500 will buy @$2.00 per gal-6,250 gals of gas x 37-41 mpg that I do get on the Civic =231,250-256,250 miles/50=4625/5125 days/365= 12.67-14.04 YEARS of commuting.
My relative gets 70 mpg cruising on interstate based on digital readout.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
When was the last time you smelled a modern diesel? I just moved back from Canada, which has a higher proportion of diesel cars, and I NEVER knew when I was following a diesel by the smell, except the occasional poorly maintained late 70's or early 80's Mercedes.
Just yesterday I was following a smoking, stinking GAS truck. It was old and obviously poorly maintained. Does this prove gassers are stinky and smelly polluters? Of course not!
All I'm saying is keep it in perspective. Both hybrids and diesels are good ways to reduce our consumption of oil.
Who knows that? Accord 4 cyl can consistently achieve 48 MPG combined driving?
The only person I know who can get 48 MPG in an Accord got 109 MPG in a Prius.
No it won't.
All ULSD does is catch up diesel to the level gas was at in 2005. It still will not reach SULEV, which is the baseline we are striving for.
60,000,000 new vehicles per year worldwide adds up to quite a problem, even with SULEV. But since the diesels don't deliver that, they are below par... not good enough.
JOHN
Especially the diesel buses in NYC. What's with that? The cabbies must be loving it. Not a chance I would live under those conditions. The CO2 from the concentration of people breathing is probably a big share of Global Warming.
You are right about modern diesel engines. No one on this board has come up with any factual document to refute that a modern diesel engine running on ULSD is any more harmful than a gasoline engine. It is all opinion based on 25 year old experience & hearsay.
The EU has embraced ULSD as the best way to save on fossil fuel & cut GHG. The NOx can be handled with a Urea filter that does not cost as much as the catalytic convertor in a Prius.
The current hybrid technology is an overly complex high cost solution, that will not be embraced by the general public. Until someone offers a simple series hybrid it is going to be a niche market.
It is also funny how they TOTALLY leave out the fact that at that time also 99.9% of the vehicles ran on LEADED REGULAR FUEL. AS IF THOSE VEHICLES AND THAT LEADED GAS CAUSED NO POLLUTION.
Do you have any EPA documents to back up your assertion? Or is this more opinion? Both Ford and Mercedes have demonstrated PZEV diesels to the EPA. I would imagine that Toyota and Honda could catch up in a few years if they set out to do that.
This "we" that is striving have not come up with many alternatives to the Prius. I would say that if Toyota were to dump all their fat profit vehicles and just build the Prius they could not make enough for all of us to have a car. They are already hedging on additional hybrids, claiming PARTS shortages. Without the additional 33% of parts in the Prius you got NO car to sell. I can guarantee Toyota will not cut off their nose to spite their face. They will only build enough hybrids to keep that GREEN glow they are feeling right now.