I like rockets... just a catch22 as the fuel costs for the SRT8 are astronomical. If gas was $1.00/gallon, I'd be at the dealership now signing the papers for the SRT8. Wonder if they'll ever put a small block V8 in the Liberty
When Samuel Silverman took his green 2001 Toyota Prius to a West Los Angeles dealership Aug. 23, he wasn't sure what had caused the master warning light for the hybrid system to turn on.
While the hybrid car was at the dealership that night, a fire started in the rear compartment near the high-voltage battery and burned through the back seat. The next morning, mechanics discovered the damage, which his insurance company declared totaled.
Now, more than three months later, Toyota engineers are not sure what caused the fire, although they are still investigating it, according to officials at the company's U.S. headquarters in Torrance.
Toyota has agreed to cover the totaled Prius, although the company has offered a lot less than Silverman claims it would cost to replace. Neither party is disputing the circumstances surrounding the fire, only the reimbursement.
Under California law, an insurer must pay either the fair market value of a car, backed up by at least two comparable vehicles for sale locally, or provide a replacement vehicle.
"We asked for their comps, but we never got them," Silverman said.
Silverman said he has comps from local used-car lots and private sellers that range from $15,000 to $17,000. The $11,500 that Toyota is offering would barely cover the $8,000 loan that exists on the vehicle, he said.
Since mileage does not reflect true engine use in hybrids, maybe these cars should be equipped with hour meters either on the engine or in the gauge cluster. This way the owner can get the most out of his oil using hours rather than mileage.
That is probably why it is not included, for it is an absolute no brainer. Gassers are WAY more destructive of oil, as their recommended hour life's range is FAR less than diesel.
Actually this is probably why the discussion of oil longevity is NOT framed in hour terms for gasser life is almost frighteningly shorter than diesel oil life.
For example 3,000 miles sounds like a LOT. 100 hours sounds like a bit more than 4 days.
On the diesel side;
25,000 miles sounds like a LOT. 833 hours sounds like a bit more than 35 days.
Lets see,
Quaker States Diesel plus formula: 250,000 miles sounds like a LOT. 8334 hours sounds like a bit more than 347 days.
Lets see how many gals of oil is used over 250,000 miles at 3000, 25,000, 250,000 miles? Say one gal per OCI. 84 gals, 10 gals vs 1 gal.
Now for THE all important environmental mathematics questions!? Which consumes less? Which consumes more? You got it!!!! The environmental types overwhelmingly almost always chose the WORST !!!!! (I mean the best) Your/re RIGHT!! I mean Your/RE OTHER RIGHT !!!
That is a good idea. My new MB Sprinter diesel has an electronic monitor. It tells you when you need an oil change. Also the level of your oil. Under most circumstances the oil change period is 20k miles. We waste a lot of oil on unneeded oil changes in our cars & trucks.
Show me a hybrid that will haul 8000 lbs through the mountains of Colorado, NM, AZ & CA averaging 21.79 MPG. That is on a brand new vehicle. When the engine breaks in I fully expect to get better than the 25 MPG it is rated at. If I could keep it under 70 MPH I might have done better. Diesel is the future for efficiency. A series diesel hybrid may be even better. Too bad they are only built for trains and buses.
Too bad the Mazda 626 doesn't get any better than the motor home.
In the US the most fuel efficient cars on the road today are the Toyota Prius. Nothing even comes close (except of course the wonderful Honda HCH). If you think an ugly converted van is the answer, you are sadly mistaken. I like the wheels. Are they casters?? LOL!!!
"In the US the most fuel efficient cars on the road today are the Toyota Prius. Nothing even comes close..."
Hmmm, around here in New England, traffic moves at speeds of well over 75 for virtually all of my commute, and by all accounts, not only is a Jetta TDI "close" at speeds like that, it exceeds the Prius (and the HCH) in fuel economy.
Not according to what numerous magazines tests. You also have to factor in the PHEW factor (aka stench). You can't even buy them as new cars where I live due to the pollution they spew. They're noisey, smelly and not that reliable. Not a good thing.
Sorry, the "noisey and smelly" mantra of the anti-diesel crown just doesn't sell anymore. Ancient news, and no longer relevant.
Regarding what the magazines say, I can't say that I've seen even a single test that rated the mileage of any of the Hybrids at speeds north of 75. Can you provide any support for your statement?
Ship is right, the old view of diesels being smelly and high in pollution just doesn't apply anymore. Search the net for results and you'll see for yourself.
Take the new Mercedes diesel E-class, for instance. It spews less greenhouse gases than many gas-driven cars in its class, and less than its own gas equivalent (6.9 tons/yr vs. 8.6 tons/yr in the E350).
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Check out Consumer Reports and Popular Mechanics. All mags show that the Prius is superior in mileage, NVH and most importantly acceleration (esp 40-70). Even the Prius with the CVT is faster than the manual TDI. I don't own one but easily average in the low 50's at highway speeds. Most importantly, my exhaust is virtually clean as a whistle. Can't say that for the TDI. Even more important is the extra high cost of diesel lately. It is over $0.50 more per gallon here!!
Problem is that the E diesel is very expensive and Mercedes are not as reliable as they used to be. I know.. I own one now. Who wants to spend north of 50grand to have an oil burner. Rather get an Accord hybrid with the same options and half the price. Mercedes are overpriced and the options are even more ridiculous. Their NAV systems suck too.
The Prius falls far short on the city mileage if we are to believe Consumer Reports. They were only able to squeeze 35 MPG in town driving with the Prius. That is about 42% under the EPA rating. The EPA rated 3 of the VW TDIs in their top ten fuel efficiency list. I wonder how well the hybrids would place using a less flawed EPA test?
Dude, you're ducking and weaving. I'm asking about mileage results posted at speeds of greater than 75 mph, speeds by the way that are considered slow for the Jetta TDI.
"I wonder how well the hybrids would place using a less flawed EPA test?"
I'm thinking not very well as the hybrids seem to be designed specifically to exploit the holes in the EPA tests. That said, the TDIs (along with most other German cars) are designed to deliver good mileage at very hyper legal speeds (at least hyper legal here in the U.S.A.).
By the way, the Jetta TDI also beats its gas equivalent
I think that VW will bring more diesels when the ULSD is the universal fuel in this country. You got to love that low end torque when you kick the Vdub from 70 to 90 MPH. A gasser is screaming at those speeds. Not only screaming it is sucking down fuel like a drunk sailor. I really like that E320 CDI. Nothing but good reports. It is a shame that Mercedes has lost some of it's glamour by building cheap cars for the masses.
That's an easy answer! The Prius at 80 MPH gets in the high 40's. I know, I've test driven one and have plenty of seat time in an 04. It is quieter and cheaper to own as well. The TDI will never, ever see the sales numbers that the Prius has. Never will. People in the states will NOT embrace diesels. They tried it once before and the results were disasterous. I think if the Japanese brought diesels here, there will be perceived quality and possible success. With VW the only affordable player, people balk because they know how bad the VW dealer network is.
If Ford gets their ducks in a row that Mercury Meta One may be a winner. You can expect 90% of the diesel sold for highway use to be ULSD by June 2006. ULSD is all that I use in my vehicles. ARCO/BP only sells ULSD in CA. I did buy diesel in Phoenix last week for $2.299 per gallon. Unleaded was $2.229. So it is getting back to normal.
I will post the links later. We've seen the reports before. C & D and Pop Mech tested the two and the Prius came out on top. I am very happy they don't sell diesel cars here in NY. We have enough pollution to deal with. Lately I've been seeing more and more hybrids. That's a good thing. Gotta love it!!!
I've gotta give you a lot of credit for consistently coming up with new ways of ducking, weaving and deflecting the discussion without ever actually meeting a direct challenge to your assertions and factoids head on. I however am tired of the game. See y'all elsewhere.
I am also tired of defending hybrids because of FUD. Very few people here have ever even driven a Prius and they think they're all experts. I've driven TDI/CRD and believe me, they are crude compared to other vehicles. Granted there is a loyal following of oil burners albeit VERY small. If I can drive a Prius at 80 MPH and get 48.3 MPG I think I'm doing VERY well. There ain't no way anyone is going to convince me to buy a diesel from Jeep or VW. Unreliable and POOR dealers are just the tip of the iceberg. I'd buy a diesel Honda CRV in a heartbeat because I know it would be reliable. How's that for ducking and weaving???
I am very happy they don't sell diesel cars here in NY. We have enough pollution to deal with.
i like how you completely ignored my facts about diesel and how it emits LESS greehouse gases than their gas counterparts. Good for you in going through a discussion with closed eyes and a closed mind. Wish I could be so happily blind. The FUD goes both ways, ya know.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I agree. Everyone who owns a TDI thinks they are gold. Truth be told, they're fairy UNCOMMON and have been sold here for years. The Prius has only been popular since 2004 and look how many have been sold!!! People know GOOD quality when they see it. The few die hards who have to have a TDI are paying dearly. Now the crooked VW dealers are charging upwards of a 4k premium. HA!! How long will it take those folks to recoup their supposed investment???
> i like how you completely ignored my facts about diesel and how it emits LESS greehouse gases than their gas counterparts.
Since the discussion is about "Prius v TDI", how is "gas counterparts" even the slightest bit relevant?
Diesel supporters do everything they can to prevent focus being placed on smog-related emissions. Diverting attention to greenhouse gases is an excellent way of doing that. It makes the reply appear as though all emissions are being addressed, but in reality only part is.
Until a diesel (non-hybrid) is certified as SULEV (or better), it simply cannot be considered clean. Some non-hybrid gas vehicles deliver that, why can't a diesel using ULSD?
Another diversion technique is to compare old diesel to new diesel. That makes it appear cleaner too. But in reality, the new still doesn't deliver SULEV. So it is not clean.
MPG alone (directly related to greenhouse gases) is not enough, period.
If I can drive a Prius at 80 MPH and get 48.3 MPG I think I'm doing VERY well.
But eventually you do have to hit the gas. Owning a Prius myself I know it's possible to even hit 100mpg for short stretches at 80mph. Going downhill. But eventually reality does set in. It's just not possbile to cruise at 48.3 MPG @80 MPH (I think you meant MPH anyway) in a Prius. It may not even be possible in an insight.
You probably don't know how to drive your Prius. I can easily travel route 80 in NJ at 80 MPH and achieve high 40's in gas mileage. It could have been that the wind wasn't strong that day. Bottom line is I did it.
I've been driving the Prius up and down 287 for about 2 years now. I know that with wind, I'll do better. I know that when I go home, I'll do better (downhill). I know that when I pass a tractor trailer, I better hold on.
But in the end, the 48.3 is fleeting if I'm going to hold it at 80mph. 65mph, sure. Lots of stop and go, yeah. But never gonna get that at 80mph unless I can somehow change the laws of the universe.
Since the discussion is about "Prius v TDI", how is "gas counterparts" even the slightest bit relevant?
Actually the discussion is about hybrids and diesels. And whether they are worthwhile. Is either one a practical solution to our use of fossil fuel and pollution. I don't think the hybrids can now or ever justify the added cost by FE savings. Now with over 30 other non-hybrid cars that are SULEV rated that takes the wind out of the hybrid sails from an emissions angle.
Many advocates of hybrid technology on this forum have opted for a less expensive choice. As long as Toyota plays games with the Prius we will not know how popular it may be. Now Honda is playing that game with the HCH. $3000-$5000 value added premium over MSRP on a Civic hybrid.
I always considered a person that would pay MSRP for a vehicle a fool with his money. So they have eliminated most of Americans that feel the same as I do.
Diesel cars are an alternative to the hybrids. Many people don't like the looks or the complexity of the hybrid cars. The current small crop of diesel vehicles give an option. Granted it is not as clean as many of the gas cars that are available. The current crop of diesels are more efficient pound for pound than gas or gas hybrid comparables.
I think the most annoying aspect coming from the diesel haters, is the fact that we the diesel consumers have no control of the formulation of the fuel we buy. When the last gas crunch came and people were looking for fuel efficient cars the sulfur in diesel could have been addressed at that time. Many countries in the EU did something. Now they enjoy a much higher level of fuel efficiency than we do.
So you can scream all you want about diesel pollution it is a fuel efficient alternative to the overpriced hybrids. If you really are concerned about using up our fossil fuel, buy a diesel car and use biodiesel. You can buy a Jeep diesel for half the price of a Toyota/Lexus SUV hybrid. And be able to go off road. If going off road is not in your plans why buy an SUV? Get a more fuel efficient car.
Since the discussion is about "Prius v TDI", how is "gas counterparts" even the slightest bit relevant?
it is relevant to counter falconone's assertion that diesels are horribly dirty and should be banned. If that is the case, then he should be making the same assertion about gasoline vehicles as well. I certainly can't argue that the current gas hybrids don't pollute less than current diesels in the US, because they do. No argument there.
I can't tell you about ULSD because they aren't here yet, so I have no pollution data regarding them. If you do, I'd like to see it. For all I know, a hybrid-ULSD is going to trump everything.
Another diversion technique is to compare old diesel to new diesel. That makes it appear cleaner too.
It IS cleaner than old diesel technology. There is no way to argue that.
I absolutely agree that mileage affects greenhouse gases. But explain to me why its a bad thing to get better mileage and, therefore, decrease greenhouse gas emissions?
Personally, I have not been arguing diesel is better than gas-hybrid. Yes, I don't find the current gas-hybrids to be all they are cracked up to be and, given the choice, I'd prefer to drive a diesel, from an automotive enjoyment aspect. The current hybrids don't impress me when, 10 years ago, a college buddy of mine was happily getting 45 mpg in his 1964 VW Beetle on a bad day.
I'm still waiting for a hybrid-ULSD before jumping on any bandwagon. Until then, I am merely trying to cut through the disinformation being spouted from all sides.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I'm driving 287 now, not the Parkway. And if you drive the parkway, you well know it's a LOT of stop and go, which I indicated earlier made it very easy to get that mileage.
If you have to drive the parkway, the Prius is *unbeatable*. The ability to cruise thru toll plazas on battery, the ability to creep the 2 or 3 mile backups you'll get every day on battery, makes it just untouchable compared to a diesel. There's no way around that. But 287 is not the same as the parkway... the traffic doesn't stop, and the Prius loses some of it's advantage there.
You can stand by your statements, and I'm standing by mine.
Only reason diesels sell well in Europe is due to the price advantage that diesel has. Europeans would LOVE to have advantageous gas cars, but the price of fuel is very high. Here in the states we still have relatively cheap fuel. With that, we can enjoy the clean advantages of gas cars. As John stated before, there isn't one diesel car in this country that is considered clean. That's why they're outlawed in CA/NY/MA/ME/MA. Yes you can buy a used one (over 7500 miles) but you won't find many. Any diesel VWs that are available are getting huge premiums!! Much more so than the Prius. The Prius hybrid will ALWAYS be more successful that diesel cars. That's a fact!! Hybrids are being made by Ford, Toyota, Honda and even Hyundai is getting into the act. GM will be introducing the Vue hybrid pretty soon too. Let's discount the GM truck that they slapped a generator on and called it a hybrid. No mileage advantage. Only advantage was to add money to the MSRP. Only suckers would go for that type of deal.
You can stand by your statements. I already proved mine. You're getting 52 overall!! Wonderful!!! You did better than me. Bottom line is that I got 48.3 at a constant 80 MPH on route 80. I doubt very much the TDI diesel can achieve such lofty goals.
According to CR/ C&D and Pop Mech, each magazine claimed the Prius had better mileage. It is safe to say I would NEVER save money with a TDI. In NY the price of diesel is $0.60 more per gallon. Besides... it would be hypocritical to drive a dirty car anyway.
In the context of TDI's being less than 2.3-2.9% of the passenger vehicle fleet; hybrids being less than 1%, the fact of the matter by definition TDI's and hybrids get better fuel mileage than 97.1%-97.7%
So according your 80 mph and my 85 mpg experiences, I get 1.7 mpg better fuel mileage going 5 mph faster, and under more stressful conditions? So this proves that 48.3 is greater than 50 ?
It may not be that long of a wait. If a fraction of the money that was spent on hybrid/gas technology, had been spent on diesel propulsion, we would be way ahead of the FE game right now.
Designed to be the world’s first Partial Zero Emission Vehicle (PZEV)-capable diesel hybrid powertrain, the Mercury Meta One concept not only provides an astounding 431 lb.-ft. of torque but also is 97 percent cleaner than the Tier I emissions standard for NOx. Meta One shows that diesels can potentially meet the strictest emissions standards when combined with modern hybrid and after-treatment technologies.
"As the world’s first PZEV capable diesel, the Mercury Meta One concept shows that advanced technologies that we’re developing promise the potential to deliver diesels that can be as clean as the cleanest gasoline engines," said Schmidt. "The torque of this engine, when combined with the modular hybrid-electric transmission, also provides excellent driving performance."
Not according to CR. I seriously doubt a TDI gets better mileage at 85. If you care to place a wager and conduct the test oursleves I'd like to oblige. In the meantime, I will enjoy the fact that Toyota sells MORE hybrids than ALL diesel cars combined in the US. That's an undisputed fact.
The Prius hybrid will ALWAYS be more successful that diesel cars. That's a fact!!
Wow! Hey, since you can see into the future, can you give me some good stock tips or sports-betting locks? Much appreciated!
Tongue-in-cheek aside, since you are now stating things that haven't happened yet as fact, I can see there is no point in continuing discussion with you. Good luck with your Prius religion.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Yes.... I have to leave work early for religious Prius instruction My statements are mere speculation, however I may have been a little too strong with stating that it WILL be fact. Perhaps I should have said "The Prius will be more successful than diesels, they're cleaner and more plentiful". I apologize for my exuberance.
Mileage in Town The Prius again scored at the top with 52 mpg. Dr. Diesel, in last place at 33, was a bit of a surprise. We expected more. Diesels are at their best, relatively speaking, under light loads; they inject very little fuel and they have no throttling losses.
The above is quoted from the Car and Driver frugalympics. I'll take a Prius any day over the TDI.
Comments
Best Regards,
Shipo
While the hybrid car was at the dealership that night, a fire started in the rear compartment near the high-voltage battery and burned through the back seat. The next morning, mechanics discovered the damage, which his insurance company declared totaled.
Now, more than three months later, Toyota engineers are not sure what caused the fire, although they are still investigating it, according to officials at the company's U.S. headquarters in Torrance.
Toyota has agreed to cover the totaled Prius, although the company has offered a lot less than Silverman claims it would cost to replace. Neither party is disputing the circumstances surrounding the fire, only the reimbursement.
Under California law, an insurer must pay either the fair market value of a car, backed up by at least two comparable vehicles for sale locally, or provide a replacement vehicle.
"We asked for their comps, but we never got them," Silverman said.
Silverman said he has comps from local used-car lots and private sellers that range from $15,000 to $17,000. The $11,500 that Toyota is offering would barely cover the $8,000 loan that exists on the vehicle, he said.
http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-hy-wheels30nov30,0,7436- 982.story?coll=la-home-highway1
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=1177467#post1177467
What is the longest one usually runs an oil in a gasser hybrid?
I currently do 25,000 mile OCI's, what a lightweight compared to the above eh?
Think the above difference will save a few barrels of oil in the long haul?
Actually this is probably why the discussion of oil longevity is NOT framed in hour terms for gasser life is almost frighteningly shorter than diesel oil life.
For example 3,000 miles sounds like a LOT. 100 hours sounds like a bit more than 4 days.
On the diesel side;
25,000 miles sounds like a LOT. 833 hours sounds like a bit more than 35 days.
Lets see,
Quaker States Diesel plus formula:
250,000 miles sounds like a LOT. 8334 hours sounds like a bit more than 347 days.
Lets see how many gals of oil is used over 250,000 miles at 3000, 25,000, 250,000 miles? Say one gal per OCI. 84 gals, 10 gals vs 1 gal.
Now for THE all important environmental mathematics questions!? Which consumes less? Which consumes more? You got it!!!! The environmental types overwhelmingly almost always chose the WORST !!!!! (I mean the best) Your/re RIGHT!! I mean Your/RE OTHER RIGHT !!!
Too bad the Mazda 626 doesn't get any better than the motor home.
Hmmm, around here in New England, traffic moves at speeds of well over 75 for virtually all of my commute, and by all accounts, not only is a Jetta TDI "close" at speeds like that, it exceeds the Prius (and the HCH) in fuel economy.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Regarding what the magazines say, I can't say that I've seen even a single test that rated the mileage of any of the Hybrids at speeds north of 75. Can you provide any support for your statement?
Best Regards,
Shipo
Take the new Mercedes diesel E-class, for instance. It spews less greenhouse gases than many gas-driven cars in its class, and less than its own gas equivalent (6.9 tons/yr vs. 8.6 tons/yr in the E350).
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The Prius falls far short on the city mileage if we are to believe Consumer Reports. They were only able to squeeze 35 MPG in town driving with the Prius. That is about 42% under the EPA rating. The EPA rated 3 of the VW TDIs in their top ten fuel efficiency list. I wonder how well the hybrids would place using a less flawed EPA test?
Best Regards,
Shipo
By the way, the Jetta TDI also beats its gas equivalent (5.6 vs. 7.2).
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I'm thinking not very well as the hybrids seem to be designed specifically to exploit the holes in the EPA tests. That said, the TDIs (along with most other German cars) are designed to deliver good mileage at very hyper legal speeds (at least hyper legal here in the U.S.A.).
Best Regards,
Shipo
I think that VW will bring more diesels when the ULSD is the universal fuel in this country. You got to love that low end torque when you kick the Vdub from 70 to 90 MPH. A gasser is screaming at those speeds. Not only screaming it is sucking down fuel like a drunk sailor. I really like that E320 CDI. Nothing but good reports. It is a shame that Mercedes has lost some of it's glamour by building cheap cars for the masses.
Personally, I can't wait for a ULSD hybrid!
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
If Ford gets their ducks in a row that Mercury Meta One may be a winner. You can expect 90% of the diesel sold for highway use to be ULSD by June 2006. ULSD is all that I use in my vehicles. ARCO/BP only sells ULSD in CA. I did buy diesel in Phoenix last week for $2.299 per gallon. Unleaded was $2.229. So it is getting back to normal.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I dont want to read anyone else posting *ONLY TDIs* can get good MPG at those speeds.
i like how you completely ignored my facts about diesel and how it emits LESS greehouse gases than their gas counterparts. Good for you in going through a discussion with closed eyes and a closed mind. Wish I could be so happily blind. The FUD goes both ways, ya know.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Since the discussion is about "Prius v TDI", how is "gas counterparts" even the slightest bit relevant?
Diesel supporters do everything they can to prevent focus being placed on smog-related emissions. Diverting attention to greenhouse gases is an excellent way of doing that. It makes the reply appear as though all emissions are being addressed, but in reality only part is.
Until a diesel (non-hybrid) is certified as SULEV (or better), it simply cannot be considered clean. Some non-hybrid gas vehicles deliver that, why can't a diesel using ULSD?
Another diversion technique is to compare old diesel to new diesel. That makes it appear cleaner too. But in reality, the new still doesn't deliver SULEV. So it is not clean.
MPG alone (directly related to greenhouse gases) is not enough, period.
JOHN
But eventually you do have to hit the gas. Owning a Prius myself I know it's possible to even hit 100mpg for short stretches at 80mph. Going downhill. But eventually reality does set in. It's just not possbile to cruise at 48.3 MPG @80 MPH (I think you meant MPH anyway) in a Prius. It may not even be possible in an insight.
But in the end, the 48.3 is fleeting if I'm going to hold it at 80mph. 65mph, sure. Lots of stop and go, yeah. But never gonna get that at 80mph unless I can somehow change the laws of the universe.
Actually the discussion is about hybrids and diesels. And whether they are worthwhile. Is either one a practical solution to our use of fossil fuel and pollution. I don't think the hybrids can now or ever justify the added cost by FE savings. Now with over 30 other non-hybrid cars that are SULEV rated that takes the wind out of the hybrid sails from an emissions angle.
Many advocates of hybrid technology on this forum have opted for a less expensive choice. As long as Toyota plays games with the Prius we will not know how popular it may be. Now Honda is playing that game with the HCH. $3000-$5000 value added premium over MSRP on a Civic hybrid.
I always considered a person that would pay MSRP for a vehicle a fool with his money. So they have eliminated most of Americans that feel the same as I do.
Diesel cars are an alternative to the hybrids. Many people don't like the looks or the complexity of the hybrid cars. The current small crop of diesel vehicles give an option. Granted it is not as clean as many of the gas cars that are available. The current crop of diesels are more efficient pound for pound than gas or gas hybrid comparables.
I think the most annoying aspect coming from the diesel haters, is the fact that we the diesel consumers have no control of the formulation of the fuel we buy. When the last gas crunch came and people were looking for fuel efficient cars the sulfur in diesel could have been addressed at that time. Many countries in the EU did something. Now they enjoy a much higher level of fuel efficiency than we do.
So you can scream all you want about diesel pollution it is a fuel efficient alternative to the overpriced hybrids. If you really are concerned about using up our fossil fuel, buy a diesel car and use biodiesel. You can buy a Jeep diesel for half the price of a Toyota/Lexus SUV hybrid. And be able to go off road. If going off road is not in your plans why buy an SUV? Get a more fuel efficient car.
it is relevant to counter falconone's assertion that diesels are horribly dirty and should be banned. If that is the case, then he should be making the same assertion about gasoline vehicles as well. I certainly can't argue that the current gas hybrids don't pollute less than current diesels in the US, because they do. No argument there.
I can't tell you about ULSD because they aren't here yet, so I have no pollution data regarding them. If you do, I'd like to see it. For all I know, a hybrid-ULSD is going to trump everything.
Another diversion technique is to compare old diesel to new diesel. That makes it appear cleaner too.
It IS cleaner than old diesel technology. There is no way to argue that.
I absolutely agree that mileage affects greenhouse gases. But explain to me why its a bad thing to get better mileage and, therefore, decrease greenhouse gas emissions?
Personally, I have not been arguing diesel is better than gas-hybrid. Yes, I don't find the current gas-hybrids to be all they are cracked up to be and, given the choice, I'd prefer to drive a diesel, from an automotive enjoyment aspect. The current hybrids don't impress me when, 10 years ago, a college buddy of mine was happily getting 45 mpg in his 1964 VW Beetle on a bad day.
I'm still waiting for a hybrid-ULSD before jumping on any bandwagon. Until then, I am merely trying to cut through the disinformation being spouted from all sides.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I'm driving 287 now, not the Parkway. And if you drive the parkway, you well know it's a LOT of stop and go, which I indicated earlier made it very easy to get that mileage.
If you have to drive the parkway, the Prius is *unbeatable*. The ability to cruise thru toll plazas on battery, the ability to creep the 2 or 3 mile backups you'll get every day on battery, makes it just untouchable compared to a diesel. There's no way around that. But 287 is not the same as the parkway... the traffic doesn't stop, and the Prius loses some of it's advantage there.
You can stand by your statements, and I'm standing by mine.
As I said before, I am not anymore. Since I switched to 287, I'm getting an average of 43-45. I do think the TDI could match that.
During that one summer when I took the parkway, I did get ~50MPG for a few weeks. I don't think the TDI could do that.
It is not so much that you doubt, but you really don't want to give credit!
I can easily get 50 mpg at 85 mph, going up hill, upgrade to 4200 ft in 25-40 mph headwinds in a driving rain. (So Ca's grapevine)
A GOAL would be more like getting 55-65 mph in the same scenario. Much more fun at 50 mpg!
47-51 is the range in a 50 R/T daily commute. The same EXACT commute, a 2004 Honda Civic VP gets 37-40. Same driver.
So according your 80 mph and my 85 mpg experiences, I get 1.7 mpg better fuel mileage going 5 mph faster, and under more stressful conditions? So this proves that 48.3 is greater than 50 ?
It may not be that long of a wait. If a fraction of the money that was spent on hybrid/gas technology, had been spent on diesel propulsion, we would be way ahead of the FE game right now.
Designed to be the world’s first Partial Zero Emission Vehicle (PZEV)-capable diesel hybrid powertrain, the Mercury Meta One concept not only provides an astounding 431 lb.-ft. of torque but also is 97 percent cleaner than the Tier I emissions standard for NOx. Meta One shows that diesels can potentially meet the strictest emissions standards when combined with modern hybrid and after-treatment technologies.
"As the world’s first PZEV capable diesel, the Mercury Meta One concept shows that advanced technologies that we’re developing promise the potential to deliver diesels that can be as clean as the cleanest gasoline engines," said Schmidt. "The torque of this engine, when combined with the modular hybrid-electric transmission, also provides excellent driving performance."
http://www.seriouswheels.com/top-2005-Mercury-Meta-One-Concept.htm
All bark, no bite.
JOHN
Since biodiesel actually *INCREASES* smog-related emissions, it is a poor solution.
Again, MPG alone is not good enough. The SULEV represents a geniune improvement that is also needed.
JOHN
Wow! Hey, since you can see into the future, can you give me some good stock tips or sports-betting locks? Much appreciated!
Tongue-in-cheek aside, since you are now stating things that haven't happened yet as fact, I can see there is no point in continuing discussion with you. Good luck with your Prius religion.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Mileage in Town The Prius again scored at the top with 52 mpg. Dr. Diesel, in last place at 33, was a bit of a surprise. We expected more. Diesels are at their best, relatively speaking, under light loads; they inject very little fuel and they have no throttling losses.
The above is quoted from the Car and Driver frugalympics. I'll take a Prius any day over the TDI.