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quote gagrice-"Lastly, if I was trying to squeeze every possible mile from any car I would consider the AC costs something to run. It is worth it to me. Have not bought a car since 1973 without AC, even in Alaska."-end quote
Any cars in Alaska which are not equipped with A/C are going to have a hard time defogging their interior windows - the A/C plays a critical part in that process.
Gary, on your estimated 1% loss of MPG on your TDI, the best way to measure that is get several summer tanks without any A/C use and compare it to tanks where you use the A/C virtually every minute, in order to get good data. I'd be willing to bet you a Krispy Kreme that it's more than 1%. :shades:
I do have a SWAG of 1 to MAX 3 mpg on the Jetta TDI. However, I must confess ignorance for I normally run the TDI with A/C.
So on a recent trip TO Las Vegas, in summer of course, 104 degrees. (is there any other time to go to LOSS WAGES? ) I got 48 mpg. I did three hundred miles of stop and go miles in D/T Las Vegas and got like 43/44 mpg. The A/C was on the whole time. (however useless it was)
> On the other hand it looks like 10%+ loss on the hybrids using AC is the norm. At least according to the owners reporting here at Edmund's.
Being vague and lumping all types & generations of hybrids together is a dead giveaway that certain people are not being sincere... especially when this very topic has already been discussed.
Only the HSD model hybrids from Toyota fully electric A/C (which is extremely efficient), the older ones do not. Neither do any hybrids from the competition either. So that claim above is very misleading.
My combined calculated average for 2004 & 2005 between the months of June & September comes to 53.5 MPG. There is simply no possible way to support the generalized 10%+ claim above. In reality, it is actually just a 1 to 2 MPG hit.
Your history kind of gets back to what I said about A/C's being similar. It certainly does not indicate a grossly superior efficiency over A/C's put in TDI's (mpg wise). My swag is very close to your calculated average.
first, there is no way that the A/C on a TDI costs only 1%. no way. it costs way more mpg than that - 5% *minimum* on my ex-jetta TDI 5-spd. maybe less on my passat TDI.
now how about a cage match between HAH and Passat TDI? 2005 Passat TDI for now, but i hear we will see 2006 Passat TDI in the spring. maybe some of you gents can show us how the numbers stack up! we get 37 mpg summer with our passat TDI. it's down a few mpg now on winter fuel/etc. i got 48 mpg summer with jetta TDI, 44 mpg winter.
Being vague and lumping all types & generations of hybrids together is a dead giveaway that certain people are not being sincere
The vehicles I was referring to are the HH & RH both Toyota built. If you read all those threads you will see at least a 10% mileage variation being posted by the owners in both winter cold and summer heat conditions. When a poster says his mileage drops to 24 MPG from 28 MPG what percentage would you call that? Actually I have not seen where Honda hybrid posters are getting as big of a variation as the Toyota HSD vehicles. Is that less vague.
Actually if some manufacturer builds a plug-in series hybrid car it will put the current hybrids in a Museum along with the EV-1. Series diesel is the logical way to build a hybrid.
I'd be willing to bet you a Krispy Kreme that it's more than 1%.
I would gain back all the weight I lost driving around without AC in the summer.
There is probably no way for me to prove that the AC on a diesel uses less than a gas car. I just know that drag feeling I get with smaller gas cars when I switch the AC on. I Just drove to town and while driving on a very flat portion of the freeway I watched the instant MPG readout. It was sitting on 48 MPG going 70 MPH. It did not drop 1/10 of a MPG when I would switch the AC on and off. Give it a try with the HCH and see how much it drops your MPG reading.
I already know how the A/C affects my HCH - I just also know that I looked for about an hour and a half this morning all over the Web and no site I could find said anything about diesel or "torque" having anything to do with stopping the A/C from affecting MPG in any type of car.
I even found pages that specialized in diesel engine info, and none of them in any of the technical data says that diesel car A/C does not use fuel.
I understand your point about how an increased load on an engine, caused by high RPMs, might rob smaller engines of their MPG when the compressor is running, but my point is that this effect is universal to all cars, maybe just lessened a little bit in higher horsepower engines, but there all the time nonetheless.
Torque has nothing to do with amount of fuel burned.
I even found pages that specialized in diesel engine info, and none of them in any of the technical data says that diesel car A/C does not use fuel.
Don't you just hate it when you search for hours on the web and cannot find what you want? Why don't we compromise here. I'll give you a 2.5% loss in my VW TDI for the AC. That is still less than 1 MPG loss. I know there is no free lunch. By the way it was not for the defroster that I would special order my vehicles in Alaska with AC. It was to keep the dust out during the summer. In 1974 I bought a new Dodge van. The Alaska dealer would not special order it with AC. I ended up ordering one in Seattle and driving back.
More where this came from. Where high expectations exist, you will hear more comments when they are not fulfilled.
I have been finding that the gas mileage has dropped off substantially with the colder weather. We are now only averaging about 23-24mpg on the highway & about the same in the city. In the summer months we were getting about 27 on the highway & at least 30 in the city.
Just got back from vacation last night. While on vacation, I had the opportunity to try a Prius with 5500 miles on it. Had two adult passengers on board.
Seating: front seats good, driving position was fine once I got it set. Rear seat, plenty of leg room, needs more headroom. Seat cushion (rear) too firm. Had a sore butt after 20 minutes. Rear window visibility a little limited.
Steering: scary to me. Very numb! Had no sense of what the tires were doing. No road feel. Did not track well, especially at speeds over 40 mph. Required too much attention (in my view)to keep it tracking straight. Easily blown off course by passing semi on the highway. Car did not feel "tossable".
Ride: what I expected for a car of this size. Had two other people in the car with me. Lots of road noise at any speed with a fair amount of wind noise around the "A" pillar at highway speed.
Engine/Motor: stealth mode interesting. Had A/C running. Ran for about 15 - 25 seconds, then engine started. Starting seemed abrupt and harsh. Was startled by it several times. Underway from a stop, heard some electric motor whine along with road/tire noise, then the engine started. Again, seemed harsh, even with light application of right foot. Real hard kick when the engine started and engaged. Is this normal? Expected something more refined. When accelerating, lots of engine and exhaust noise heard. Seemed to be as loud as my CRD. Once on the highway and cruising at 65 mph, engine seemed to be running at a frenetic pace. I ignored the MFD, too distracting. Prius seems to be a better "around town" car than a highway car. Drove on the highway for about 15 minutes. Noisy; road, tire, engine, wind all made the environment sort of unpleasant. Accelerating from 55 mph to 75 mph was interesting. Sooooo Sloooow. Needs more power/torque.
Other: starting the Prius with a button was fun but if the A/C was left on it was a pain. The only security seems to be locked doors and perhaps an alarm system. Scary to leave this one unlocked, even for a few minutes.
Was down in Delaware this weekend Xmas shopping and stopped at the Mercedes dealer I bought my car at. They also own a Chrysler/Jeep dealership about 100 yards away. Donna (my Merc salesperson) gladly arranged for the Jeep guys to arrange my test drive. I was able to keep the truck for a half hour. I reset the mileage and let the truck warm up a bit. It is not as loud as I anticipated but definitely louder than the gasser. Very annoying when stopped as the vibration really enters the cabin. Once underway, I took it on route 1 (Milford DE) and drove up towards Dover AFB. The truck road nicely but wind noise was very, very loud. I guess they haven't improved it since my '02. I kept the speed at 65 and was impressed with the mileage I got. I got 26.5 which is WAY better than I ever got with the gasser. Driving around in the Milford village was nice and this is where the truck shines. It is NOT a good highway performer. Acceleration from a standstill is not bad, but it ain't good either. Passing on a two lane road is a little heart wrenching, but manageable. Seat are NOT comfortable and I still feel like I am sitting on a stool. In summary... definitely a truck NOT for me, but I can see why there are fans out there. As you all know, I was considering the Prius, but after I read this month's C & D and read about the new RAV4, I have a change of heart. Will be testing that V6 pup when it becomes available. Same mileage as a diesel Liberty, more luxurious, FASTER, quieter etc etc.
This is merely an after thought after reading your post. Since you were at the MB dealer, why didn't you try the MB E320 (or 350?) TDI. Comparing an suv to a passenger sedan is really apples to figs. (but I realize these kinds of comparisons are done all the time)
From all I have read, not only does it get pretty good mpg (37 mpg I hear) but it actually does a better 0 to 60 than its gasser counter part. I know for sure the MB E 320 is an EXCELLENT road car. MB E320's are pricey I know (45-50k?), and the TDI adds something like 800-1200 premium? (I am swagging here)
Not interested in another Mercedes. Too overpriced and not that reliable. Same for VW. Was interested to see all the fuss over the Jeep CRD and I got it out of my system. Still crude in my book. Looking forward to the V6 RAV4 now. Reading great reviews. Prius is not a contender now, though I still support and embrace the technology.
I can certainly understand that. If MB is overpriced and not reliable what would peak your interest in a JEEP?
As for Toyota products, while it has a reputation for quality and excellence across its wide product line, I would only say buyer beware!! However I have had great luck with over 5 Toyota Landcruiser's. Just wish they would let the very fine turbo diesels into the USA !!!
Getting the seating just right is a pain in the butt. Now that I have it set, it is quite comfortable. Wind noise is a bit of a problem. Engine vibration gets better as the engine breaks in. I had that initially on my CRD, but after a few thousand miles, the vibration went away. Window switches are a bit bizzare. but I have gotten use to them.
Highway is a good place for the CRD. You do not need a lot of right foot to make it move, even in a passing situation. Mashing the gas does not help on this engine. That took me a few minutes to figure out.
My Jeep Liberty was rock solid even though it did have a few issues. One that I could never fix was the vibration in the steering wheel at 65-70. Changes tires, alignment, complained... no help. As much as Jeep is part of Mercedes now, their reliability is different. Just because I test drove it, does NOT mean I'll buy it. I'd have to be REALLY overwhelmed which I certainly wasn't. As to the RAV4, we'll have to see how I like the test drive.
I find it interesting that you are now looking at something else other than a Prius. What made you change your mind?
I agree that the concept of the technology is a good idea, but I feel that there is an easier way to do it. Toyota's approach is just to messy for my taste.
I'm like a little kid in Toys R Us. I can have my heart set on something, then I go down another aisle and I see a different toy.
Actually, I got C & D magazine this weekend and I loved the review. Did more research and loved it even more. Great price, great performance and if I want, I can tow 3500 lbs. Will test one in late January. In the meantime, I'll still be a cheerleader for the Prius, since I still really like the car.
Nice article about diesels. Has a short take on the Honda 2.2L diesel. Got 92 mpg! Not a hybrid. Looks like they may be bringing it to the U.S.
Ford is working with diesel/electric and has a PZEV hybrid they are playing with. Do not know what kind of hybrid it is. Can obtain PZEV with diesel and not gas.
Not sure where I read this but Corning (upstate NY co) will be providing the diesel emission filters to VW for their diesel products. It is ironic that NY is one of the 5 states that have banned the sales of new diesels. From memory CA MA are part of that 5 state coalition. I forget the other two.
If Honda or Toyota bring diesel passenger cars to USA I will be one of the first to buy. I'd really like to have the Accord i-CTDi as pictured in the article.
The film tells the story behind the creation of Honda’s first diesel in a unique way. Kenichi Nagahiro, the company’s chief engine designer and inventor of the celebrated VTEC engine, hated diesel engines, hated how noisy, smelly and dirty they were.
And so when he was asked to design Honda’s first diesel he flatly refused - unless he was allowed to start completely from scratch. The result of his efforts is one of the cleanest, most refined diesel engines on the market today, the 2.2 i-CTDi.
"Nagahiro’s passionate dislike for all that is bad about diesel engines was the motivation he needed to develop a new kind of Honda diesel. And the story behind this engine is a perfect example of the ‘Power of Dreams’ says Honda’s Matt Coombe.
Wieden & Kennedy, who produced the advertisement, were captivated by the idea of talking about Hate as something positive, a passionate force that could actually be turned to good use, and the slogan ‘Hate Something Change Something’ was born.
"One of the biggest challenges was how to talk about hate in a really positive way that felt right for Honda" says Kim Papworth at Wieden + Kennedy, London. "Writing a song and creating an animated world of positive hate was the natural next step."
Has anyone ever written letters to car manufacturers asking them if they intended to bring diesels into the US market after ULSD is widely available in 2006? If so, did you ever get a response?
I just mailed out four letters yesterday and hope to get a 50% return. Maybe if enough people fired off letters inquiring about diesel cars in the US, something might happen, maybe. The lure of $$$ might be too great to ignore.
I would like to see Honda and Toyota bring in a diesel; in fact, I would like to see a diesel Chevy HHR. :shades:
I really don’t want an SUV (Liberty) and I do not want nor can I afford a MB. Call me picky. For what I want, VW is my only choice. Kind of a monopoly in the affordable diesel passenger car market.
Yeah...very few choices. After driving the CRD, I was not overwhelmed at all. I'd love to have the Accord diesel brought over to the states. MB is too expensive and their reliability has little to be desired. VW... forget that!! You're right... very few choices. Let's hope it changes.
Ford and GM have some very nice diesels they sell in Europe and there is some on and off talk that Ford may be bringing over the diesel in Focus form. With 1560 cc diesel, it gets 59 mpg highway, 49 mpg combined
I think MB may be also bringing the A-class to this country in the next year or two. They have 1992 cc diesel that gets 48 mpg combined and 55 mpg highway, based on a U.K. EPA website that is similar to our EPA fuel economy website. There is another A-class with a 1.7L diesel that gets 60 mpg highway, and 52 mpg combined. They are not hybrids.
There are all sorts of good looking diesels over in Europe. I feel it is our lack of quality fuel that is keeping more European and Asian car makers from sending more diesels to the U.S. Once the fuel quality issue is taken care of, I feel that you will see more diesels on the road here.
Got my C&D in the mail yesterday. Read the RAV-4 review. In spite of what C&D says, it is still very much a cross-over. They made that clear in their article. The fuel economy they obtained was 16 mpg while the CRD got 20 mpg. The RAV-4 is a bit of a pocket rocket, but still has it's limitations just as the CRD has it's limitations. The CRD is a truck, not a cross-over and weighs close to 700 pounds more than the RAV-4.
Of course it is a crossover. It doesn't pretend to be a truck either. No low gearing. Has a nice feature of hill holding though. Never ever took my Liberty off road, other than to the beach. Won't be a problem to air down a RAV and take it to the beach. If I need brute utility, I have full time access to a 2002 JGC from my inlaws. C&D got 16mpg and qualified that with the fact that were driving it like they stole it (or something like that). I believe Consumers Reports got something like 18 with the CRD which I know is way low. Bottom line is that the EPA rating for the RAV is better than the CRD. I am quite certain I can easily attain mid 20's on the highway with a nice quiet ride (more so than the noisey Liberty). I also expect stellar reliability as well.
Bottom line is that C&D test drives all their cars like they were stolen. They got 20 mpg with the CRD(September 2005 Short Take, Page 124).
Let us keep it apples and apples when it comes to magazine sources. It is only fair since C&D tests consistently one way while CR tests differently. Both the RAV-4 and CRD were tested by C&D.
Many people are getting in excess of EPA highway on their CRD's, including yours truly. Thirty+ mpg is not uncommon at 62 mph for me. Most gassers rarely ever get to EPA highway mpgs while diesels can generally exceed them fairly easily.
Would rather give up a few MPG to achieve 0-60 in 6.3 verses something close to 11 seconds for the oil burner Lib. Besides... why should I spend $0.60 MORe for a gallon of diesel. Looking forward to testing that RAV puppy. Sounds delicious!!
Maybe where you live diesel is 60 cents more. Here its on par with premium gasoline, depending on where you go.
As to giving up mpg versus 0 - 60, I will take the mpgs. I have gotten 0 - 60 out of my system a long time ago. Rode as a passenger in a 1967 Dodge Dart with a 1957 392 cubic inch hemi crammed into it. 0 - 1320 ft with terminal speed in excess of 135 mph. Sixty came in under 2.0 seconds. 6.3 seconds is a little slow (LOL).
The E320 has a 3.0L six cylinder with filter (particulate). The Honda diesel is new 2.2L in an Accord four door sedan. The Tucson by Hyundai has a 2.0L diesel. I picked these cars as they are ones we know over here save for their diesel engines which are not here, save for the MB.
The real disaster was not making the change in the late 70's for diesel at the same time LEADED reg was mandated to UN leaded regular. In fact it would have been much easier then as there was almost literally no significant % population of passenger car diesels.
I think what I have said is coming to pass. Diesels are becoming emissions friendly. They have also done it in WAY less time than the so called "clean gassers"
Ahh.. so there IS still a diesel premium. Must be $0.25 more then. 0-60 is NOT important to me. A quiet,comfortable ride, reliability, versatility. Don't see that in the CRD. Crude at idle, too many little problems people are having. Way, way too loud at 65-70. Mediocre braking is something I also don't like.
New RAV has .83 skidpad, so much better handling than the CRD oil burner.
Why bother wasting all that money on a hybrid premium when you can buy the car below? Also it is environmentally friendly
The Audi R10 vehicle will have a 5.5-litre, 12-cylinder twin-turbo TDI engine, capable of producing 650bhp.
The R10 will have two particulate filters to reduce emissions as the company looks to ensure it is producing a competitive vehicle that is also environmentally-friendly
One thing I can certainly say is that you will never see 30+ mpg at 62 mph with that RAV-4. Also have a 20.5 gallon tank and at 30 mpg that is over 500 miles (with 2 gallon reserve). You will never see that.
Oh yes, the diesel premium exists - co-worker bought a VW Bug recently and her husband is a mechanic and they passed on the diesel version when it was $4400 more than the gas version.
I won't see it with a CRD either. I already test drove one and never even approached 32 MPG. I usually travel at 75-80 MPH. What is the CD of the Liberty? .55 or something like that? The RAV4 is .33 which is pretty decent for a crossover. I don't even get 32 now so I won't be missing anything. I'll be getting the same mileage as I do now. I'll be buying regular gas and not buying diesel which is outlawed in my state (diesel cars that is). I'll also never have to look at the Liberty's tail lights either!! :P
As to the $0.25 premium, let us do a little math. Let us assume that there is that $0.25 difference between gas and diesel. Let us say that you might get 24 mpg on the highway with this RAV-4. I regularly get 30 mpg with my CRD. Say that regular is $2.25/gallon, diesel is $2.50/gallon. Divide mpg into cost and you get the following values, 9.375 cents/mile for the RAV-4, 8.33 cents/mile for the CRD. That is 1.04 cents per mile more for the RAV-4 or for 12K miles per year $124.80 more you need to pay to drive those 12K miles. Diesel fuel would have to cost over $2.80/gallon to have the same cents/mile cost as the RAV-4.
Gas prices are starting to rise again. I am paying 2.399 for diesel. Gas is 2.249 (local prices on gasbuddy). Doing the math again using same mpgs RAV-4:9.4 cents/mile, CRD: 8 cents/mile or $168 dollars more to run the RAV-4 over 12K miles.
They are not outlawed. You live in New Jersey or New York? They follow the CARB rules and you cannot buy a new diesel, but you can buy one with 7501 miles on it.
CD for CRD is .42, RAV-4 .35.
As to your fuel economy during your test drive, remember that the engine was green. Mileage on my CRD did not start improving until after 3K miles. Have over 6K and am getting 30 mpg. Some people with over 10K getting over 30 at 65 mph. I run at 62 mph because it is a sweet spot for the engine and I get my best mpg there.
Actually the car was not green. It was one of the manager's demo cars (he smoked in it too !! YUCK). It had a little over 5700 miles on it. I tried as best I could and only got a bit over 26. If I have to pay $168 as your computed premium I'd be more than happy to. We're DINKs so that is nothing to us. Unfortunately you'll be paying (statistically) more in the long run on maintenance and upkeep on your Jeep product. BTW.. the new RAV is .33 CD from what I read. Did you forget about stopping distances??? 120 feet for the new RAV from 60-0. SWEET!!!! Liberty takes nearly 20 feet longer. Whew!!!!
You wrote that the mileage on the CRD you drove was about 5700 miles. The engine is still green. Diesels really do not break-in until about 10K miles, and sometimes more.
As to maintenance costs, oil change every 12K miles, fluid changes (differentials, transfer case) yearly. Will do those myself. Real easy to do. As for cooling system and trans service, I will let someone else do that, but not necessarily the dealer.
Actually... I just read the Edmunds test of the STR8 Grand Cherokee. I love it!!!! I just wish the mileage was a tad better. I'd take a chance with another Jeep product. Even though they are troublesome in the press, my Liberty was solid except for the vibration issue and three recalls. Overall, if I do get the Toyota RAV V6 I am quite certain my maintenance and reliability will be better than the CRD. The CRD is just TOO crude. I hope the Honda/Toyota diesels are quieter.
My, you are a Toys R Us kid. You do like your rockets. On the British EPA website, they measure noise levels on cars underway. I do not know if it is an exterior or interior measurement.
For CR-V, 2.2L diesel, 72.3 decibels For CRD, 2.8L diesel, 74 decibels For RAV-4, 2.0L diesel, 72.9 decibels For Land Cruiser, 3.0L diesel, 71 decibels
The Honda and Toyota diesels are both smaller, except Land Cruiser, than that found in the CRD and yet are just as noisy. I doubt anyone has an ear that sharp to tell the difference.
When you are at 150 Plus db, right next to a pr. of (PW) Pratt and Whitney jet engines at (FMP) full military power praying to God you don't get sucked in?
Comments
Any cars in Alaska which are not equipped with A/C are going to have a hard time defogging their interior windows - the A/C plays a critical part in that process.
Gary, on your estimated 1% loss of MPG on your TDI, the best way to measure that is get several summer tanks without any A/C use and compare it to tanks where you use the A/C virtually every minute, in order to get good data. I'd be willing to bet you a Krispy Kreme that it's more than 1%. :shades:
So on a recent trip TO Las Vegas, in summer of course, 104 degrees. (is there any other time to go to LOSS WAGES?
Being vague and lumping all types & generations of hybrids together is a dead giveaway that certain people are not being sincere... especially when this very topic has already been discussed.
Only the HSD model hybrids from Toyota fully electric A/C (which is extremely efficient), the older ones do not. Neither do any hybrids from the competition either. So that claim above is very misleading.
My combined calculated average for 2004 & 2005 between the months of June & September comes to 53.5 MPG. There is simply no possible way to support the generalized 10%+ claim above. In reality, it is actually just a 1 to 2 MPG hit.
JOHN
now how about a cage match between HAH and Passat TDI?
2005 Passat TDI for now, but i hear we will see 2006 Passat TDI in the spring. maybe some of you gents can show us how the numbers stack up! we get 37 mpg summer with our passat TDI. it's down a few mpg now on winter fuel/etc. i got 48 mpg summer with jetta TDI, 44 mpg winter.
The vehicles I was referring to are the HH & RH both Toyota built. If you read all those threads you will see at least a 10% mileage variation being posted by the owners in both winter cold and summer heat conditions. When a poster says his mileage drops to 24 MPG from 28 MPG what percentage would you call that? Actually I have not seen where Honda hybrid posters are getting as big of a variation as the Toyota HSD vehicles. Is that less vague.
Actually if some manufacturer builds a plug-in series hybrid car it will put the current hybrids in a Museum along with the EV-1. Series diesel is the logical way to build a hybrid.
I would gain back all the weight I lost driving around without AC in the summer.
There is probably no way for me to prove that the AC on a diesel uses less than a gas car. I just know that drag feeling I get with smaller gas cars when I switch the AC on. I Just drove to town and while driving on a very flat portion of the freeway I watched the instant MPG readout. It was sitting on 48 MPG going 70 MPH. It did not drop 1/10 of a MPG when I would switch the AC on and off. Give it a try with the HCH and see how much it drops your MPG reading.
I even found pages that specialized in diesel engine info, and none of them in any of the technical data says that diesel car A/C does not use fuel.
I understand your point about how an increased load on an engine, caused by high RPMs, might rob smaller engines of their MPG when the compressor is running, but my point is that this effect is universal to all cars, maybe just lessened a little bit in higher horsepower engines, but there all the time nonetheless.
Torque has nothing to do with amount of fuel burned.
Don't you just hate it when you search for hours on the web and cannot find what you want? Why don't we compromise here. I'll give you a 2.5% loss in my VW TDI for the AC. That is still less than 1 MPG loss. I know there is no free lunch. By the way it was not for the defroster that I would special order my vehicles in Alaska with AC. It was to keep the dust out during the summer. In 1974 I bought a new Dodge van. The Alaska dealer would not special order it with AC. I ended up ordering one in Seattle and driving back.
Really? I can't find that reference anywhere.
JOHN
I have been finding that the gas mileage has dropped off substantially with the colder weather. We are now only averaging about 23-24mpg on the highway & about the same in the city. In the summer months we were getting about 27 on the highway & at least 30 in the city.
cyclone4, "Lexus RX 400h" #2098, 1 Dec 2005 8:32 pm
Seating: front seats good, driving position was fine once I got it set. Rear seat, plenty of leg room, needs more headroom. Seat cushion (rear) too firm. Had a sore butt after 20 minutes. Rear window visibility a little limited.
Steering: scary to me. Very numb! Had no sense of what the tires were doing. No road feel. Did not track well, especially at speeds over 40 mph. Required too much attention (in my view)to keep it tracking straight. Easily blown off course by passing semi on the highway. Car did not feel "tossable".
Ride: what I expected for a car of this size. Had two other people in the car with me. Lots of road noise at any speed with a fair amount of wind noise around the "A" pillar at highway speed.
Engine/Motor: stealth mode interesting. Had A/C running. Ran for about 15 - 25 seconds, then engine started. Starting seemed abrupt and harsh. Was startled by it several times. Underway from a stop, heard some electric motor whine along with road/tire noise, then the engine started. Again, seemed harsh, even with light application of right foot. Real hard kick when the engine started and engaged. Is this normal? Expected something more refined. When accelerating, lots of engine and exhaust noise heard. Seemed to be as loud as my CRD. Once on the highway and cruising at 65 mph, engine seemed to be running at a frenetic pace. I ignored the MFD, too distracting. Prius seems to be a better "around town" car than a highway car. Drove on the highway for about 15 minutes. Noisy; road, tire, engine, wind all made the environment sort of unpleasant. Accelerating from 55 mph to 75 mph was interesting. Sooooo Sloooow. Needs more power/torque.
Other: starting the Prius with a button was fun but if the A/C was left on it was a pain. The only security seems to be locked doors and perhaps an alarm system. Scary to leave this one unlocked, even for a few minutes.
From all I have read, not only does it get pretty good mpg (37 mpg I hear) but it actually does a better 0 to 60 than its gasser counter part. I know for sure the MB E 320 is an EXCELLENT road car. MB E320's are pricey I know (45-50k?), and the TDI adds something like 800-1200 premium? (I am swagging here)
As for Toyota products, while it has a reputation for quality and excellence across its wide product line, I would only say buyer beware!! However I have had great luck with over 5 Toyota Landcruiser's. Just wish they would let the very fine turbo diesels into the USA !!!
Highway is a good place for the CRD. You do not need a lot of right foot to make it move, even in a passing situation. Mashing the gas does not help on this engine. That took me a few minutes to figure out.
I agree that the concept of the technology is a good idea, but I feel that there is an easier way to do it. Toyota's approach is just to messy for my taste.
Actually, I got C & D magazine this weekend and I loved the review. Did more research and loved it even more. Great price, great performance and if I want, I can tow 3500 lbs. Will test one in late January. In the meantime, I'll still be a cheerleader for the Prius, since I still really like the car.
For those of you that may take your hybrids too seriously, the title of this post is intended as humor.
On a more serious note, it is encouraging to see diesel and hybrids with performance modifications. Racing technology improves street technology.
Nice article about diesels. Has a short take on the Honda 2.2L diesel. Got 92 mpg! Not a hybrid. Looks like they may be bringing it to the U.S.
Ford is working with diesel/electric and has a PZEV hybrid they are playing with. Do not know what kind of hybrid it is. Can obtain PZEV with diesel and not gas.
I'd really like to have the Accord i-CTDi as pictured in the article.
I would wait a year or two before buying the Honda diesel to make sure it is okay.
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:2pFF5gLlICAJ:www.corpsalesuk.com/04bulletin/o- ct04.pdf+%22honda+diesel%22+%2Bcdti+%2BKenichi+Nagahiro&hl=en
The film tells the story behind the creation of Honda’s first diesel in a unique way. Kenichi Nagahiro, the company’s chief engine designer and inventor of the celebrated VTEC engine, hated diesel engines, hated how noisy, smelly and dirty they were.
And so when he was asked to design Honda’s first diesel he flatly refused - unless he was allowed to start completely from scratch. The result of his efforts is one of the cleanest, most refined diesel engines on the market today, the 2.2 i-CTDi.
"Nagahiro’s passionate dislike for all that is bad about diesel engines was the motivation he needed to develop a new kind of Honda diesel. And the story behind this engine is a perfect example of the ‘Power of Dreams’ says Honda’s Matt Coombe.
Wieden & Kennedy, who produced the advertisement, were captivated by the idea of talking about Hate as something positive, a passionate force that could actually be turned to good use, and the slogan ‘Hate Something Change Something’ was born.
"One of the biggest challenges was how to talk about hate in a really positive way that felt right for Honda" says Kim Papworth at Wieden + Kennedy, London. "Writing a song and
creating an animated world of positive hate was the natural next step."
I just mailed out four letters yesterday and hope to get a 50% return. Maybe if enough people fired off letters inquiring about diesel cars in the US, something might happen, maybe. The lure of $$$ might be too great to ignore.
I would like to see Honda and Toyota bring in a diesel; in fact, I would like to see a diesel Chevy HHR. :shades:
I really don’t want an SUV (Liberty) and I do not want nor can I afford a MB. Call me picky.
For what I want, VW is my only choice. Kind of a monopoly in the affordable diesel passenger car market.
I think MB may be also bringing the A-class to this country in the next year or two. They have 1992 cc diesel that gets 48 mpg combined and 55 mpg highway, based on a U.K. EPA website that is similar to our EPA fuel economy website. There is another A-class with a 1.7L diesel that gets 60 mpg highway, and 52 mpg combined. They are not hybrids.
There are all sorts of good looking diesels over in Europe. I feel it is our lack of quality fuel that is keeping more European and Asian car makers from sending more diesels to the U.S. Once the fuel quality issue is taken care of, I feel that you will see more diesels on the road here.
Only time will tell how both of them really do.
Let us keep it apples and apples when it comes to magazine sources. It is only fair since C&D tests consistently one way while CR tests differently. Both the RAV-4 and CRD were tested by C&D.
Many people are getting in excess of EPA highway on their CRD's, including yours truly. Thirty+ mpg is not uncommon at 62 mph for me. Most gassers rarely ever get to EPA highway mpgs while diesels can generally exceed them fairly easily.
As to giving up mpg versus 0 - 60, I will take the mpgs. I have gotten 0 - 60 out of my system a long time ago. Rode as a passenger in a 1967 Dodge Dart with a 1957 392 cubic inch hemi crammed into it. 0 - 1320 ft with terminal speed in excess of 135 mph. Sixty came in under 2.0 seconds. 6.3 seconds is a little slow (LOL).
CO NOx PM HC
Honda 2.2 CTDi .171 .180 .013 0.0
E320 w/ DPF .030 .203 .004 0.0
Hyundai Tucson .148 .218 .040 .008
Prius .180 .010 0.0 .02
The E320 has a 3.0L six cylinder with filter (particulate). The Honda diesel is new 2.2L in an Accord four door sedan. The Tucson by Hyundai has a 2.0L diesel. I picked these cars as they are ones we know over here save for their diesel engines which are not here, save for the MB.
I think what I have said is coming to pass. Diesels are becoming emissions friendly. They have also done it in WAY less time than the so called "clean gassers"
New RAV has .83 skidpad, so much better handling than the CRD oil burner.
Why bother wasting all that money on a hybrid premium when you can buy the car below? Also it is environmentally friendly
The Audi R10 vehicle will have a 5.5-litre, 12-cylinder twin-turbo TDI engine, capable of producing 650bhp.
The R10 will have two particulate filters to reduce emissions as the company looks to ensure it is producing a competitive vehicle that is also environmentally-friendly
Gas prices are starting to rise again. I am paying 2.399 for diesel. Gas is 2.249 (local prices on gasbuddy). Doing the math again using same mpgs RAV-4:9.4 cents/mile, CRD: 8 cents/mile or $168 dollars more to run the RAV-4 over 12K miles.
CD for CRD is .42, RAV-4 .35.
As to your fuel economy during your test drive, remember that the engine was green. Mileage on my CRD did not start improving until after 3K miles. Have over 6K and am getting 30 mpg. Some people with over 10K getting over 30 at 65 mph. I run at 62 mph because it is a sweet spot for the engine and I get my best mpg there.
As to maintenance costs, oil change every 12K miles, fluid changes (differentials, transfer case) yearly. Will do those myself. Real easy to do. As for cooling system and trans service, I will let someone else do that, but not necessarily the dealer.
For CR-V, 2.2L diesel, 72.3 decibels
For CRD, 2.8L diesel, 74 decibels
For RAV-4, 2.0L diesel, 72.9 decibels
For Land Cruiser, 3.0L diesel, 71 decibels
The Honda and Toyota diesels are both smaller, except Land Cruiser, than that found in the CRD and yet are just as noisy. I doubt anyone has an ear that sharp to tell the difference.