BMW 3-Series Run Flat Tires

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Comments

  • rprice1rprice1 Member Posts: 9
    What are you doing about possible flat tires with your non-Run Flats. Are you carrying a spare in your trunk. If so, how do you handle the fact that the front and rear tires on the 3 series cars are a different size?
  • rprice1rprice1 Member Posts: 9
    What good is a space saver spare when the 3 series has staggered size tires (bigger in back than in front)? Are you going to carry two space saving spares? I doubt it.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 267,450
    All the tires are the same diameter.. .top to bottom.. (same overall height)...

    So, only one spare needed.. My wife's car has staggered tires and one full-size spare that matches the front exactly, but is an acceptable substitute for the rear, as well... It only differs in width (about an inch).

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  • cbanctcbanct Member Posts: 17
    I read an article reccently in Businessweek which was explaining that BMW is a very innovative company. I envision that someone there thought it would be cool to have run flat tires and no spare. I think it is much cooler to have a full size spare like the one in my Passat !

    I am thinking of buying a 335i next year. I will definetely be switching out the runflats with Michelin Pilots if I get it. I guess I will have to get the tire repair kit as mentioned in the posts above, instead of a spare taking up some of the trunk.

    cbanct
  • cbanctcbanct Member Posts: 17
    I have not seen any mention of problems with the run flat tires on Edmunds long term road test of the 330i. Emails to the editors have not prompted an answer to this.
    Are they having issues with these tires or not ?

    cbanct
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    The editors seem to think BMW can do no wrong. I would gladly let Edmunds' editors try out my 330i ZSP with non-RFTs back to back with their long-term 330i ZSP. We have near identical cars - save for mine has normal tires. One drive or even ride usually convinces people there's a major difference.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Blue,

    What is the weight difference rft to gft that Shipo refers to? I know the RFT I have off the rim has very thick side walls.

    I assume performance difference is true as you have first-hand and seat-of-the-pants expierience.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    For the non-SP cars that run 225/45 R17 tires all around the difference is fairly significant. I just checked the weight of the Continental ContiSportContact 2 tires in both GFTs and RFTs, and the RFTs outweigh the GFTs by a whopping 27%. Yikes! Said another way, the aforementioned tires carry the following weights:

    RFTs: 28 pounds
    GFTs: 22 pounds

    I know that six pounds per corner may not sound like much, however, slung way out on the end of the axle and way out there beyond the wheel, that's a LOT of weight.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • owner6owner6 Member Posts: 89
    Would our HOST from Edmunds please respond to this!!!!!!

    Owner6
  • muchopablitomuchopablito Member Posts: 12
    Shippo --

    You make a good point, but you are missing part of the computation which might make a difference in your outcome.

    The spare tire with the GFT is 22 pounds, right? And it is back over the rear axle. If you take the 6lb difference * 4 you get 24lbs extra then subtract the 22lbs GFT and you are actually only adding 2 Lbs to the weight of the car.

    I'm not an engineer so I don't know how moving the weight to the corners and down to the axles impacts handling but the overall weight change is not material.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "You make a good point, but you are missing part of the computation which might make a difference in your outcome."

    Actually, no, I'm not. My point was UNSPRUNG weight not vehicle weight. The E90 cannot accommodate a spare tire and as such the car is 40 or 50 pounds lighter than it would be with a spare so the point is moot anyway. That said, the weight difference in the vehicle won't amount to a measurable or discernable difference when driving the car. Think about it, a tank of gas weighs more than twice that of a spare tire.

    The flip side of course is what all of that rotating and unsprung mass does to the suspension when driving the car. The lighter the wheel and tire assembly, the lower the unsprung mass. The lower the mass, the easier it is for the suspension to accommodate road and steering transients, and the faster it and the car as a whole reacts to the various dynamic forces encountered when driving. The more spirited the drive, the greater the intensity of the dynamics that the suspension needs to deal with. So, a leisurely drive to the movie theater will most likely not encounter anything that would signal a difference to the driver, however, when bunn-huggin it through the esses, trust me, the lighter tires will be VERY noticeable.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • muchopablitomuchopablito Member Posts: 12
    I think I understand. Question -- since the RF tires have more mass they have more inertia. So, when you hit a bump, they resist a change in directions to a greater extent than a tire with less mass. How does that affect the handling and feel? (I guess you'd have to say that, since the road isn't going to move, the tire does one way or the other, right? So, the wheel changes direction and the suspension system has to contend with that. I guess I answered my own question. Is that the basic concept?)
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Yup! ;-)

    The other thing to consider is the gyroscopic effect called precession. As mass is moved away from the axis of rotation and as said mass is increased, the tire and wheel combination start generating forces of their own as speed increases. Think about the toy gyroscope that you most likely played with as a kid (or play with when playing with your own kids). The faster that thing spins, the harder it is for you to force it in any given direction. Front tires tend to do the same thing.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Spare tire? No room for a spare in an e90.

    And yeah, my offer stands. If Edmunds wants to play with my car, I'm game to drive up to LA one weekend. I've got simple Kumhos but the car's a different beast with them v those awful RFTs.
  • jbrock22jbrock22 Member Posts: 18
    What has been your experience with the EL42 in last seasons snows.I'm outside of Phila., we can have mild winters or not so mild. Do I need to switch out my tires/wheels.The 325i is my first RWD car in years. Thanks !
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I drove an All-Season (Michelin MXV4 Plus) shod 1999 328i for the better part of four northern New Jersey winters, some mild, some not. The only two things I had to be careful of were turning off the DSC when climbing a snow covered hill and descending a slippery slope using engine braking, especially if said slope has a few curves as well.

    That last point is VERY important. Why? Simple, the DSC system cannot correct for an engine braking induced spin. I found this out the hard way one snowy evening as I was descending the hill that I lived on at the time. Said hill had a couple of good curves toward the bottom, and as was my typical pattern I had the car in 2nd gear and was just tooling along minding my own business when suddenly the backend came around on me on a left hand bend. I was initially very surprised until I figured out that the car wanted to go faster than the rear wheels were turning and said rear wheels had simply broken loose. With that realization I simply pushed in the clutch pedal and the car instantly got itself sorted and started tracking correctly again.

    With the above said, the difference between a car shod with All-Season tires and Winter tires must be experienced to be appreciated. On days that would have been, ummm, nervous at best in my 328i, I was able to tool along with relative aplomb in my winter tire equipped 530i. From here on in I will have nothing but SP equipped cars and a separate set of winter wheels and tires.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Nice save with the clutch! You have great instinct and reaction time to boot!

    Reminds me of a '70 mustang in the rain with those good 'ole 3-plys. Downshift one gear too low and the rear passes you!
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Dear Shipo,

    You were correct. There is no center lug. The rims were extremely tight. I could not pop with my heel facing away from the wheel. I had to sit on the ground facing the wheel and alternately kick each side of the tire until they came loose.

    Thank you for your direction here. The passenger rear was the one I changed when I had the flat at 5K. The BMW dealer over tightened the lugs but I got them off. I wonder why some of these mechanics can't figure out the proper torque on those air guns?

    The factory installed lugs were perfectly torqued, however. I recommend hand tightening with a torque wrench after you get new tires installed at any shop.

    The wear on the front tires was more worn on the inner 1/3 of the tread. The rears were even. My mileage is 11,780, so this is a bit over what you suggested considering the 300 tread wear rating on these EL42's.

    Best Regards,
    OW
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    Expect an email from Editorial on your offer. Pat passed this along and we worked it through the channels.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Wow. I'll check my email.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Keep us posted. ;)
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Nothing yet. Not that it matters too much...I'm in Green Bay this week and Vancouver next.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I notice that at least some forum members here such as Blueguy have changed to non-RFTs. I myself was going to get non-RFT snow tires for my new BMW335i sedan (delivered Nov. 4th) but now I am re-considering.

    Why?

    Because an independent tire dealer told me there could be warranty issues with non-RFT e90s. This tire dealer said that two of his customers who own BMW e90s had to pay out of pocket expenses for suspension damage . Damage that really should have been covered by BMW's four year warranty.

    I phoned various BMW dealers and they confirmed that there could be warranty issues with non-RFT tires. They claim the suspension of the 335i is designed specifically for RFTs.

    I find it quite unfortunate that BMW would use such bunk in order to waiver certain sections of their 4 year warranty :lemon:
    So based on warranty issues I feel I have little choice but to make an appointment next week to install Bridgestone Blizztak RFT snow tires at my BMW dealership :cry:
  • jfdiamondjfdiamond Member Posts: 6
    I have been reading this post religiously due to my disgust with the Bridgestone RFT's that were OEM on my 2006 330xi (s/sport package). I just dropped at BMW of Manhattan for its "low mile oil service" at 10,000 miles. This dealership is owned by BMW USA, so they operate in a little different manner. I asked what BMW is doing about this matter (while pointing to the NEW 3 series with the Conti OEM's), and the service manager said "nothing yet" but he feels something is coming soon (I purchased from a different dealer in MA). I said I'm considering purchasing the Conti's or even the Michelin's, and he said "Don't. They will likely do something soon and you'll get free tires....". Fingers crossed. I'll let you know if I learn anymore, and please so the same.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,621
    I'm sure tire dealers love run-flats. They're a license to print money. Others of us, not so much.

    Besides which, how often do BMW suspension parts fail? Declining to do a warranty repair has to have a logical connection to the "non-factory" part. Not using stiff, non-compliant, expensive, non-repairable (but, other than that, what's not to like?) tires is not going to affect the warranty if some electrical bit packs up, or nearly anything else on the car.

    The goal appears to be to scare the (let's say daylights, for the sake of propriety) out of anyone in possession of a BMW, so that they won't take it to an independent and/or touch anything, lest the warranty be declared void.

    It appears to work, most everytime it's tried.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I also lease a 330xi precisely due to the warrantee. I have decided not to go with GFT's. The car has 12,000 miles logged since inception on 12/20/05. After the flat in March, the el42 was changed to new for $250. I just rotated the tires front to back on each side. The inner 1/3 tread had worn more than the outer portion but had good meat left. The backs wore very even and I estimate all tires can go to 30K.

    In August, Firestone was running a sale on el42's for $150 and Tire Rack had Continental RFT's for around the same price. I will skip the snows and change out to new RFT's next September. Hopefully we have more choices.

    I assume BMW keeps to their plan for the 3 series and the run-flat set-up in 2007?
  • actualsizeactualsize Member Posts: 451
    The warranty void excuse might not be total BS:
    1) You've got no factory provided place to tie down a spare, so they cannot recommend or install regular tires. You can do it, but they can't. They have to toe the company line, but more importantly, they expose themselves to all sorts of liability if they removed the RFTs for you.

    2) If you have use regular tires, tire tread shrapnel can whip around in a blowout, and yes, in severe (and very rare) cases something like a tie rod end can get bent. I myself have seen a Toyota shock absorber bent this way. And of course the wheel can scrape along the pavement. BMW would say that neither would have happened if you kept RFTs, the factory authorized part, on the car.

    I don't think they could succeed in claiming that the entire warranty is void, but it certainly would affect those claims pertaining to the fitment of "unauthorized" tires. But then again, I'm not an attorney. For now, I'll call it partial BS.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249

    The warranty void excuse might not be total BS:
    1) You've got no factory provided place to tie down a spare, so they cannot recommend or install regular tires.

    Ah, M series cars don't have spares. A spare has nothing to do with running RFTs v. real tires.

    You can do it, but they can't. They have to toe the company line, but more importantly, they expose themselves to all sorts of liability if they removed the RFTs for you.


    Talk to M owners then. And also the people on bimmerfest who had real tires put on the car at delivery.

    2) If you have use regular tires, tire tread shrapnel can whip around in a blowout, and yes, in severe (and very rare) cases something like a tie rod end can get bent. I myself have seen a Toyota shock absorber bent this way. And of course the wheel can scrape along the pavement. BMW would say that neither would have happened if you kept RFTs, the factory authorized part, on the car.

    RFTs can blow too. RFTs have been known to completly fall apart, just like real tires. You guys are drinking the kool-aid...
  • actualsizeactualsize Member Posts: 451
    Not so about the kool-aid. I'm not a big RFT fan myself. But I have had more than a bit of OE experience about warranty issues. If some dealers are willing to do it, great. Every franchise does have a certain amount of leeway to do what it wants. But the liability, and the possibility that BMW would reject a warranty claim, does exist.

    Of course RFTs can blow, especially if driven farther or faster than the advertised range, or if the driver didn't see the low tire lamp come on. But they do it far less often than GFTs. (GFT = brilliant. Kudos to whoever thought that up.)

    All I'm saying is that if a particular dealer says they won't/can't do it, it might not be total BS from their POV.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Of course RFTs can blow, especially if driven farther or faster than the advertised range, or if the driver didn't see the low tire lamp come on. But they do it far less often than GFTs. (GFT = brilliant. Kudos to whoever thought that up.)"

    Thank you. I actually wasn't trying to get cute or nuthin', the term "Gets Flat" just seemed to fit. ;-)

    That said, the concept of GFTs being used as a loophole to allow BMW and/or the dealers to deny a warranty claim for a premature failure on a strut, shock, ball-joint, tie-rod end, steering rack or any number of other suspension components is a red herring. To be sure, folks have been lowering unsprung weight (via lighter wheels and tires) on their cars for decades primarily as a means of improving handling performance for decades, and as such, we’d have heard about such warranty denials long be fore now..

    Think about it this way, there are aftermarket wheels sold for BMWs and other performance oriented cars that are considerably lighter than the OEM wheels. In fact, BMW dealers themselves have been selling aftermarket wheels (manufactured by/for BMW and any number of other brands) for these cars for a LONG time, and to the best of my knowledge, there has never been a denied warranty claim based upon the wheel and tire assembly being too light.

    The fact of the matter is that a lighter W&T assembly will reduce the amount work a suspension has to do to over any given road surface with any given driving dynamic. If anything, suspension components will last considerably longer with lighter GFTs mounted on an E90 than they otherwise would with RFTs.

    Another reference that is of interest; for the 2006 model year (and 2007 as well?), the E60 5-Series could be configured from the factory with either RFTs or GFTs. That suspension is "tuned" for RTFs as well, however, no such warranty denial claims are being made to owners who opt for GFTs.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • actualsizeactualsize Member Posts: 451
    Maybe there is a misunderstanding. I'm not talking about premature suspension failure, but rather collateral damage to suspension pieces caused by blowout shrapnel. If a dealer is denying a claim based on your scenario, then yes, that's dirty pool.

    In general, dealers don't want you to buy parts or services anywhere else, so the warranty threat/bluff is a popular one.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Actual, what you are saying makes sense but I feel it's highly unlikely for GFT's to be damaged enough to ruin the suspension parts. Not impossible but the statistics probably favor a real small probability for collateral damage from a percussion during most deflations and driving conditions (sans enthusiasm or a series of metal spikes dropped in front of you aka Goldfinger).

    As for the RFT's, I drove my zero pressure el42 100 miles after the warning light went on and the tire is in real good condition. The sidewalls held up well. I am sure there was always a possibility that the tire could have shattered. The good thing about gft's is that when they loose pressure fast, you know it and take respective action slow and stop safely. :sick:
  • actualsizeactualsize Member Posts: 451
    As for the RFT's, I drove my zero pressure el42 100 miles after the warning light went on and the tire is in real good condition.

    How low was the pressure? Was the tire totally flat (no pressure) for 100 miles or simply below the TPMS threshold (~25% low)?

    If the former, you might have nearly used up the zero-pressure range. They don't run forever that way, they just disintegrate much more slowly than a normal tire. And damage would mostly be visible inside, after dismounting.

    If the tire some air in it, then yeah, it might have suffered no damage and could be good to go. Hard to say.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Of course RFTs can blow, especially if driven farther or faster than the advertised range, or if the driver didn't see the low tire lamp come on.

    Low tire lamp? :confuse:
  • actualsizeactualsize Member Posts: 451
    Low tire lamp? :confuse:

    Yeah. Because RFTs don't look low, a low tire warning lamp or Tire Pressure Monitor is installed on the car. BMW and Mini's outgoing system used ABS wheel speed sensors to calculate which tire was turning at a different speed due to low pressure. Other systems, and BMW's newer system, measures pressure directly with in-wheel sensors. In either case, a yellow light comes on on the dash when the pressure drops 25% below the car manufacturer's recommended tire pressure. The new US standard for the symbol is a tire cross section with an exclamation point in it. Systems made before the US standard was finalized might only alert using the driver information display.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    25%! Good grief on a 36 psi rear setup that's 32 psi! My god it'd feel like you were driving with flat tires if you ever let it get that low on a ZSP equipped car.

    FWIW, my ED 330i didn't have that enabled.
  • actualsizeactualsize Member Posts: 451
    Huh? On a 36 psi car, the low tire warning would come on at 27 psi - perhaps higher if the load rating were to be exceeded at the lower pressure. The system is intended to warn of drivers before the low pressure gets to the point of tire damage, while still allowing enough margin to avoid false alarms, an issue in locations where the temperature swings wildly overnight.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    I was thinking 10%. Sorry, I've been up since 2:30 PST. Brain's fried from flying all day.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    The pressure was absolute zero! When the "low pressure lamp" came on, it was night so I stopped at a convenience store and looked at all 4 tires and they all looked good.

    I got back in the car and proceeded 100 miles to my destination but I did feel some slight sway on the turns so when I checked the tires after the trip, and the passenger rear had no pressure. The tire is in great shape but off the car, of course. ;)

    OW
  • gerapaugerapau Member Posts: 211
    If you drove 100 miles with no pressure in the tire then most tire places will refuse to repair your tire and will recommend that you replace it. It may look fine to you but most likely you wore the side walls considerably.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Gerapau,

    The tire shop did just that and also wrecked the rim because they did not use the proper equipment for the mag wheels. They did plug the tire because I had to wait 4 days for them to get a new tire. These tires are made really strong. I did consider running on the repaired tire but relented to the professional recommendation.

    Regards,
    OW
  • bmwtxgalbmwtxgal Member Posts: 11
    Update to my situation...

    The service manager has been telling me that BMW WILL be recalling the Bridgestone RFT's, but no ETA. He has also heard rumors that they are actually designing a new tire for the 3 series, but who knows how long that will take.

    He called me last week and told me that he has permission from his boss to put new tires (at their cost) on my 2006 325i, he was tired of waiting for BMW North America.

    I lease my car, so I have to put RFT's back on it. He said that hands-down, the Michelin RFT's are the best. The Continentals and Bridgestones are basically crap (his words not mine). I also spoke to the manager at Discount Tire, he suggests the Michelins also. So I have my loaner and they are putting them on my car as we speak!

    I'll let y'all know how they are.

    All I can say to everyone with the noisy Bridgestone RFT's is keep talking to your dealership. They are getting one of us in their service bays every day and they are tired of telling us all to call BMW with no response.

    My dealership has been very understanding through this situation and wanted to make the customer happy. :)
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    bmwtxgal,

    Thanks for your update. I was wondering about the future shoes on the 335, 328. Looks like change is underway...we'll see.

    I will ask my dealership and let you know what response I get.

    Regards,
    OW
  • jbrock22jbrock22 Member Posts: 18
    Which model of RFT Michelins? Do they mfg. them in 205/55/16 and how much?
  • jjdowjjdow Member Posts: 20
    Today, I had a small nail removed from the middle of the tire and BMW patched it. They said they had been "trained" to repair certain situations, and My qualified. It would cost $45 if I did not have the tire insurance, which I do. First problem so far at 7400 ,iles. I have Bridgestone Potenzas, not Turanzas, and as I've stated before, no problems or complaint until this happpened. 1.5 hours at the dealer was the main pain. Put 500 miles on the tires with the warning light on.
  • owner6owner6 Member Posts: 89
    If you put 500 miles on the tire after the warning light came on I would not keep the tire. it has to be damaged. You have insurance so have it replaced as a safety issue, Please.
    Owner6
  • paflyerpaflyer Member Posts: 10
    Did you reset the tire sensor?
  • actualsizeactualsize Member Posts: 451
    Did you reset the tire sensor?
    I was just playing around with that on our 2006 330i last night. Easy-peasy. Just look up Flat Tire Monitor under Tires in the index of your owner's manual. Page 71 or 81, I think. Takes 5 minutes and you can do it while you drive. You do have to stop the engine, restart and begin the initialization process before you put it in gear, however.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • moesterwintermoesterwinter Member Posts: 7
    I am leasing a 2007 328xi coupe w/ 18" sports package and I would like to avoid having to pay for a new set of runflats during the course of my 3 year lease. I know that the tires probably won't make is 36,000 miles, but I am thinking that if I run snow tires 4-5 months a year, I think I have a good chance of making it.

    I am hoping that I can buy a relatively cheap set of 17" wheels and snow tires from tirerack.com. The problem with this scenario is that I don't want to have to pull the 18s off their rims to get at the pressure sensors every year. My question: What will happen if I use a set of wheels without pressure sensors installed? Will I just get a warning light? How visible will it be? Will I run into any warranty issue?

    Also, can someone recommend a cheap set of wheels and appropriate size of tire that would be equivalent to the 18s so that I don't have to have the speedometer recalibrated? Is it smart to run 17s with such large sidewalls, or would it be better for me to just buy 18" snow tires? And finally, should I get a steel mini-spare wheel and tire and throw it in the trunk? Will me 328xi come with a jack, or will I need one of those as well?

    And let me finalize this post by saying "I hate runflat tires! If there is one reason not to buy a BMW, this is it."
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