HHO kits - Do they really work?

bunnell

What is stopping You? The information is all over the net and it is free. Wanting to, is the first step in doing so. If you do it and are successful, would you tell the world and be subject to the same kind of brow beating that you are putting others through, or keep it to yourself and not risk everybody telling you are wrong? I think that is the major deterrent. Most people are afraid of their peers ridicule. Call it mob mentality. I have been called a salesman but I dont sell anything. It has been intimated that I am a con man, and I would like to know how I am conning anyone. I dont try to profit from or try to extort money from anyone. My knowledge is given for free to those who ask for it. All I am trying to do,spread the knowledge to anybody who wants to do it. I hope the whole world does it. It would sure upset the current apple cart.

PF_Flyer

A bias would imply that I know it works and I'm just against it. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I know it doesn't and cannot work. This idea has been around for over 50 years. Even ignoring what I know about physics, just the evidence of NO legitimate companies buidling this, and no auto manufacturers having snapped up this "miracle technology" for exclusive use on their vehicles tells me there's absolutely nothing to HHO.

Give us a rational explanation why General Motors would not want to instantly increase the mileage of all their vehicles by 20-50% as various claims have stated. Would that not be in their best interests right now? After all, it's been claimed here that individuals did it for $38. Is that too much for GM to spend per car to save their company? These are questions that need answers because you keep telling us it works. And if it works, then it WOULD be implemented by more than just a few individuals who have to date not shown any definitive proof that it does work beyond, "I know it works".

The evidence, both direct and indirect, that HHO does not work is overwhelming.

Mr_Shiftright

Why do I have to go and find plans and build it. I've already spend a lot of time researching, and discovering through that effort, why it can't possibly work.

It's really up to the people who are claiming a supernatural miracle beyond the laws of science to send me the plans. The burden of proof is on the one making the extraordinary claims, not upon the one who is resting on proven laws of science.

Basically you are telling us that if you drop a ball, it will fall up, not down. And you want me to buy the ball as well?

Seems to me any true believer would build an HHO kit and put it on my car for me. I don't think Thomas Edison told people to "go build your own light bulb if you don't believe me". He brought his invention to people and lit up their houses and factories, and demonstrated his invention at science fairs.

So far HHO people have proved nothing to anyone, ever.

bunnell

Have it your way then. I intend to do it my way

Mr_Shiftright

So you don't wish to prove to anyone that your device works by sending the information?

If that's the case, why would you be annoyed with anyone who didn't believe you?

This is your chance to convince thousands of unbelievers.

PF_Flyer

You're the one who claimed that your son's car now gets 80, EIGHT ZERO, miles per gallon. http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f19ce67/220

Anyone who has done this has an obligation to bring this miracle to market and turn the automotive industry around TODAY. You'd be right along side Henry Ford as one of the greats of automotive history. But since you're not doing that, there has to be a reason.

When challenged to prove what you claim is so simple to do works, you criticize the critics and tell them THEY have to prove it.

Kind of smells like the reason is that it doesn't work, and you realize that the light of day will show HHO for what it is, a scam.

How about a simple demonstration of your son's car on a local news station. They should jump all over a story about a car that gets 80 MPG with a simple modification. Let them take the car and run it for a full tank of gas and report on the results.

I can't wait for the excuse on this one :P

texases

"How about a simple demonstration of your son's car on a local news station."

I like the idea, but don't go with a local news station. I've seen them duped too many times. One thought a test that used less than a gallon of gas was OK. :sick: (these are the ones you see on YouTube)

At this point the only test I'd accept would be from an EPA-approved testing lab. "Exceptional claims require exceptional evidence" or something like that...

PF_Flyer

I should have been a little more detailed about the local news :P

The test would have to be letting them have the car, take it away on their own without the owner, fill it up and drive the car for a full tank, refill it, and report the actual mileage they got.

I want to leave very little dupe room

Mr_Shiftright

Well they won't send me the device, and they won't send me the plans. Well maybe somebody else will read this and send them to me. I'll definitely build it and install it, as long as I don't have to endanger my engine with radical timing and fuel mixture adjustments. I'll even forgive the HHO device if it fails emissions (I would test that anyway).

bunnell

I thought about leaving this post until I realized that there a lot more proponent and genuinely curious people about hho, that arent too lazy to research on their own and build their own hho generators. It is probably a good thing that there are still some opponents around. The targeted opposition and refusal to accept that change can do wonders, is kind of inspiring. I kind of wonder if it is like Orville and Wilber felt when the public refused to believe that a heavier than air craft could fly for several years after they proved it. It is said that you are never a failure til you stop trying, so keep fighting the losing battle guys. It gives you a purpose in life. The rest of us all ready have ours by working to make things better for all.

Mr_Shiftright

You mean after they proved it to OTHERS, not themselves.

I'm not "too lazy" to build one. I'm just too smart to give someone $80 for something that doesn't work.

Will YOU buy me one? :P

Like I said, I'll publish results right here for thousands to see. Here's your chance.

PF_Flyer

More talk about how the skeptics must be wrong because they're skeptical. Gee... that's sure gonna show that HHO works.

And another Wright borthers reference to boot. The obvious difference that seems to be ignored over and over again is that while there were people who thought they were crazy to try and do what they did, they had physics on their side. The Wright brothers didn't go to the papers and claim that they had flown and decide that that was proof enough. They DID it. They built and DEMONSTRATED their airplane. It worked.

So again, if your son has a car that now gets 80mpg because of HHO... and I truly hope this is actually the case...why isn't the automotive world beating a path to your door fighting each other to own this technology?

Shine the light of independent testing on that 80mpg vehicle and you'll have me right there in the camp of believers.

texases

I thought about leaving this post until I realized that there a lot more proponent and genuinely curious people about hho, that arent too lazy to research on their own and build their own hho generators[translation: there are still folks who might buy this stuff]. It is probably a good thing that there are still some opponents around. The targeted opposition and refusal to accept that change can do wonders, is kind of inspiring[translation: if I keep saying 'yes it works' you guys might give up]. I kind of wonder if it is like Orville and Wilber felt when the public refused to believe that a heavier than air craft could fly for several years after they proved it[translation: if I keep wrapping myself up in the flag, folks might go for it]. It is said that you are never a failure til you stop trying, so keep fighting the losing battle guys. It gives you a purpose in life[translation: I have no facts to offer, so I'll just put the focus on my opponents]. The rest of us all ready have ours by working to make things better for all[translation: putting money in my pocket makes the world a better place...for me at least].

qbrozen

The obvious difference that seems to be ignored over and over again is that while there were people who thought they were crazy to try and do what they did, they had physics on their side. The Wright brothers didn't go to the papers and claim that they had flown and decide that that was proof enough. They DID it. They built and DEMONSTRATED their airplane. It worked.

Yes. And, to expand on that point, they didn't claim they could fly by just flapping their arms! THAT would be more akin to the HHO claims.

effee

I don't think you realize, many, many people have tried tried this. I know people, personally who have "tried" it and it simply doesn't work. How many people have to build these worthless devices and how much money has to be wasted on them before everyone gets the message? Believe me, no one would be happier for such a miracle as myself, but the simple fact is you can't feed a trickle of oxygen and hydrogen into an engine and increase its gas mileage. If you think you're different than everyone else on the planet and that it will work for you alone then, by all means, build yourself one and use it! Go into business selling them and make a fortune. Or get sued in a class action lawsuit when all your purchasers realize it's a worthless piece of junk.

qbrozen

Thanks to larsb for posting this in another thread.

The Federal Trade Commission won a court order temporarily barring a New Jersey company from making false claims about a device that it touts as boosting automobile gas mileage by as much as 300 percent.

Dennis Lee is a convicted felon who has been selling a device known as the Hydro-Assist Fuel Cell for $1,000, claiming it will "turn any vehicle into a hybrid," according to the FTC complaint filed in federal court in Newark, N.J. Lee's companies, Dutchman Enterprises LLC and United Community Services of America Inc., also are named as defendants.

texases

(Rob, you beat me to this great piece of good news... )

Note: the central technology to the HAFC scam is, you guessed it, HHO!

I particularly liked the statment: The FTC said Lee and his companies made false claims that "violate basic scientific laws and well-established physical principles."

Mr_Shiftright

But...but...this is just a ploy by oil companies to suppress Mr. Lee's invention :P

PF_Flyer

Yea, if only they'd just open their minds and TRY it, they'd see that it works :shades:

bunnell

If you think I am doing something improper or illegal, send the ftc my way. I will be obliged to prove what I say. If I cannot,I will be ordered to shut down, and you wont hear from me again. If I can do as I say, I cannot be prosecuted. I have no doubt that somebody will be knocking on my door in a few days. You have all my information in your files. I leave the ball in your court.

Mr_Shiftright

We are not your conscience. All we are trying to do is tell people who ask why we believe this device is bogus. We don't like to see people wasting money and being disappointed. I'm sure your customers will turn you in, certainly not us. We are not law enforcement nor wish to be.

qbrozen

I didn't realize you were trying to sell something. (??)
I mean, not directly, anyway.

bunnell

We are not now, never have and will not sell them. I reckon I will, some morning find about 40 or 50 of them on my front porch, from the people I gave them to, or helped build for them. According to what you are saying, they couldnt all still be using them without knowing something is wrong, or right. From what I read, there is a couple of pastors building them for their congregations. I know of a high school physics teacher that has his class working on them. I gave him one, hooked it up, and when he got home, he was a believer. I personally know of nobody that has one in their vehicle that wants it removed. I know of no farmers that want them removed from their equipment. If what you say is true, how come the only complaints or denials come from the net? I have seen designs that dont work. Those, I tear apart and try something new. 1 more thing; I notice that the people who have been selling these longest, are still out there selling. Why hasnt the better business bureau, or the ftc, or the powers that be,shut them down for their false advertising? It is against the law.

PF_Flyer

Why hasn't ANYONE had this miracle tested in a verifiable, repeatable way?

How many people you've given them to or who's building them "from what you've read" is meaningless. None of that is PROOF that it works, which is all we're after.

If you're not selling but giving them away, there's a reason. They have NO value. The fact that there are sites still pushing this scam doesn't prove that HHO works any more than the fact that the Nigerian email scam is still being circulated proves that you can get rich by replying to it.

If it works, PROVE it and make fools of all the skeptics. That shouldn't be too much to ask of a product that you keep claiming works as well as you say.

texases

"Why hasnt the better business bureau, or the ftc, or the powers that be,shut them down for their false advertising?"

For the same reason people sell diet pills, hair pills, 'enhancement' pills, the 'Turbonator' gizmo for the inlet of your engine...all useless, but the government doesn't have the time, money, or inclination to go after every scam that's out there. They've got bigger fish to fry. At least they're frying one HHO scammer... :lemon:

Mr_Shiftright

Well why don't they lock up all the psychics, fortune-tellers, astrologers, etc? BECAUSE----people are desperate to believe in them.

So bring some of these "believers" on line then. Maybe one of them will submit to testing.

You do realize of course that this is sounding more and more like a religion, not a science?

bunnell

Thanks to all of those trying to tell me something does not work. I HAVE SOME QUESTIONS FOR YOU. Is, in your opinion, mankind as smart as he will ever get? Is technology as advanced as it will ever be? How many times in the history of mankind, have the laws of science been overturned? Is science true because you believe in something? Is another idea wrong because you dont like it? Are you the most intellegent person in the world? How do you know? The way you answer or dont answer will tell anybody who reads this post a lot.

PF_Flyer

This isn't about ANY of that. YOU made the claim that it works and your son has a car that gets 80 mpg because of it. We've asked for proof beyond the claim.

A brilliant scam, if someone doesn't think it works it's because there must be something wrong with them. What a crock.

If you ever have something to offer in the way of proof, let us know. But the way you have answered our request for proof says a lot more about whether HHO works than any of the skeptics here ever have.

coldcranker

Explanation is at: HHO Does Not Work and Here's Why -- click here

End of this thread.

Mr_Shiftright

Well that's a pretty skull-crushing experiment isn't it? One of the industry's best wrenches to build the generator, (and beautifully made, too--did you catch that?) and a thoroughly computer-monitored experiment, right down to injector pulse duration, and the results are --- ZERO mpg with HHO.

It's interesting that to stay out of jail one of the "inventors" now claims that the HHO generator is merely an "enabler" for other modifications and devices, and cannot, on its own, generate more MPG.

Which leads us to the conclusion that the other "mods", which do produce some modest results (much less than HHO claims), are doing that on their own.

It's a neat shell game:

ANALOGY: My package of marshmallows, (TURBO-mallows) when taped to your engine's hood, will give you about 30% more horsepower......HOWEVER, my marshmallows must be "enabled" to work in conjunction with a non-street legal turbocharger. I forgot to mention that first time around. See? NOW you get 30% more power, just like I said. Oh, but you failed the smog test and you just holed your pistons. So sorry.

bunnell

I know it was blamed on the economy and the current price of gasoline, but does anybody know why the million dollar hho challenge was shut down? I wonder if somebody sent them a working model of a home made hho generator. Justathought.

texases

We're still waiting for any actual information...assertions, doubts, claims, you have those by the dozens. Not a fact to be found. Justathought.

larsb

If you are going to insist your "technology" works, just get a camera and a documentary crew and fill up a car with an empty tank, drive till it's empty with the camera crew rolling along with you.

If you get 800 miles on 8 gallons of gas (or whatever), then you can have documented proof that it works.

What's so hard about that?

Mr_Shiftright

How could anyone send them a working model of an HHO generator?

texases

The approach is fine, but I need an outside party to run that test. Youtube is full of doctored videos.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't see why you couldn't just videotape the car idling at 1000 rpm with no driver. Then flip the switch for the HHO generator and the tachometer should jump up considerably, what with all the new "energy" being poured into the engine.

JarredS

It does seem a bit odd that for such a great claim it never seems to have substantial backup. I've visited several site claiming higher mpg with their hho kits but the sites all seem to lack credibility. Poorly designed and a lack of technical information and hard proof that it does work. If I was to claim "my hypothetical hho kit" boosted mpg the first thing I would do is to find a well known legitimate 3rd party testing company and have them test the kit. Having a backing from several 3rd party testing companies / garages will only help..right? I currently only see the hho kit makers backing themselves. Well, besides the "joe the plumber" saying its great listed under the hho co's testimonials page. I don't think they realize that random people testimonials don't work, for most of us. What they should also do is have a technical blog that anyone can post there issues / findings. Most tech co's do this. I think they don't do this in fear that they will be discredited for the bloated claims of double mpgs. I also have to say that I am not a sceptic, I do think the tech is sound, with the right adjustments, electrode coatings etc. Maybe the 2-10% increase is a more realistic goal. I am personally less interested in the mpg savings as to the claim of lower emissions. After all, this whole "Green" talk that is driving all this clean energy tech is about the environment right?. If the HHO kit simply cut emissions substantially that should be reason enough to install one in every car isn't it? Or are we all just after the money savings? Just some thoughts on it all..

Mr_Shiftright

I'm pretty certain at this point that an HHO kit will give you 0% improvement.

Anecdotal evidence isn't evidence at all. It really means nothing.

texases

You've interpreted the HHO web sites in one way - that out of ignorance they've failed to do the obvious things to substantiate their claim. After looking at a number of these web sites, I believe that take that approach deliberately, because there is no evidence available from an objective test. They are scammers, not bad marketers. I also doubt any claims regarding pollution reduction, because, if true, car companies around the world would flock to it, and, more to the point, regulators (EPA, etc.) would require the installation of these inexpensive devices. Just another layer of BS from the HHO folks.

JarredS

Probably so, but we have to remember the EV1. Although a clean air car it was killed with the help of CARB. We can't have faith that or clean air government agencies are out to just "save the planet". Thanks for the info..very helpful!

effee

Q: Can one build a small device that uses electrolysis to split water into its component elements of hydrogen and oxygen that will fit under the hood of your car and be powered by your car's electrical system to supply a tiny trickle of said gases to the intake of your engine?
A: Yes.
Q: Will said device improve the fuel economy of the vehicle?
A: NO.
Q: Will asking the question over and over and over again change the answer?
A: NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO............................

I guess that sounds a little like the guy on Vicker of Dibley, but that's the simple truth take it or leave it. If you want to waste your time effort and money fooling around with these toys that's entirely your business.

JarredS

Well, I'm not sure which post that outburst came from. Apparently you have been on this thread way longer than my 3 hours. Just to reiterate..I believe these HHO Co's are scamming. People do seem to be stuck on the fuel economy and less interested in emissions. Fuel efficiency aside (or lack of), can anyone direct me to any tests done regarding emissions with these kits installed. Or, did I miss that test in one of the 300 posts..sorry. I'm curious. tks

effee

My last posting wasn't a response to any particular member but just to keep my basic message in the stream of postings. Maybe after while people following the discussion will get the message that the whole idea is a dead end-it doesn't work.

texases

If, by emissions, you mean CO, HC, and NOx, there's no reason to expect a difference. Modern emissions control systems handle those items very well. If you mean CO2, there's also no reason to expect a difference, because the HHO systems have been shown to have no effect on fuel mileage.

JarredS

Ok.. I'm confused. Can someone explain this: http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/facts-research/research-technology/report/Guideline

Specifically page 11 sec 1.2.3

I'm still skeptical just don't understand why the DOT is discussing it.

effee

You're right to be skeptical. HHO is a crock of s**t.

effee

The link you provided is to a gov document concerning the use of hydrogen fuel in fuel cell and internal combustion engines. No one here is disputing that hydrogen can be used to power vehicles. Specifically this forum concerns the bogus claims made for "hho kits"-whereby a small elctrolytic device is placed under the hood of a car and trickles a tiny amount of hho gases into the air intake of an i.c. engine running on gasoline purportedly to dramatically increase fuel economy-which is a total crock. The document you linked to has absolutely nothing to do with "hho" kits. Hydrogen can power vehicles, hho kits do nothing.

Mr_Shiftright

Hydrogen-powered cars run off a sophisticated system of onboard *compressed* hydrogen, mated to an engine *specifically engineered and built* to use it. That's about as far from an HHO mayonnaise jar system as Earth is from Neptune.

And, more to the point, even with the tens of millions of dollars spent by companies like Honda and BMW for hydrogen-fuel experimentation and working models, neither company has managed to achieve either the range or the mileage of the mayonnaise jar builder.

Now why is that? And why didn't Honda and BMW build mayonnaise jar systems instead?

Answer: Because they know what works and what doesn't.

JarredS

just so you all know i'm not disputing the fact that these co's are falsely claiming huge gains using hho's. What i've also read in this tread is lots of people saying the opposite...zero gain.

I do realize that this article covers a lot of hydrogen powered systems. I wanted you to specifically look at page 11 section 1.2.3. Reading this, "produces small amounts of hydrogen and oxygen on demand by electrolyzing water carried onboard the vehicle" sure sounds like what these scam people are doing/trying to do..right? I'm sure a lot of you know the more technical end of this but the concept is the same it seems.

All i'm saying is even though these scam co's are deceptive and most of them probably have the design all wrong the theory of HHO's can work. Well, according to the Department of Energy the technique can produce marginal gains.

Just to reiterate, I agree with you regarding the forum topic. Just want steer a bit off course and want to be clear about the validity regarding the technology of hydrogen supplementation in traditional ICE.

Funny, I sound like i'm selling it. Just so you all know, I work in the architectural field. My interests in this is more than just in automotive. Implementation in Micro-cogeneration units may be possible to, with the right funding and research.

I'll stop posting on this tread due to people getting irritated about going off-topic. Sorry about that..

texases

This report addresses the safety issues that come from using hydrogen in commercial vehicles. As you noticed, it mentions other studies that indicated the potential for slight reduction in diesel particulates (7 percent), along with a very slight potential imnprovement of 4 percent in diesel fuel economy. I haven't seen these other studies, but it might work. They don't seem to relate to gasoline-powered engines. These references are included in this report for completeness, to cover all the possible sources of hydrogen in a vehicle. Hydrogen addition also has some potential to improve gasoline engine, if the compression ratio is increased, and engine management systems are completely revised. These results are often pointed to by HHO scammers, even though the HHO systems include none of these modifications.