HHO kits - Do they really work?

larsb

I just can't believe there are enough people who are in FantasyLand and believe HHO kits work to even manage to have this forum alive..........

Mr_Shiftright

What we are witnessing, I think, is an intricate feedback loop

The believers first of all, BELIEVE. Secondly, they probably come to the HHO forums while at the height of their pain, that is, when gas prices are really hurting them. This set of conditions causes other interesting things to occur.

1. The Hawthorne Effect -- this is the reluctance to confess failure to the group that believes. (also called "Big Brother is Watching"

2. Cognitive Dissonance -- reluctance to admit you were duped and just kissed $80 goodbye

3. Other Remedial Factors of Interference -- since you are in the height of your pain, gasoline wise, you probably are doing OTHER things besides hooking up an HHO generator. You have probably started driving more slowly and carefully, put air in your tires, fuel injector cleaner, etc. -- all of which affect gas mileage positively in concurrence with your HHO generator

4. The Sincerity of the Therapist -- the person touting the HHO generator totally believes it (really) and is NOT a fraud (of course some are).

5. The complete and utter absence of any data collection. In this way, HHO generators are a lot like "alternative medicine", where practitoners actually avoid any statistical analysis of what is happening, so that they might properly evaluate it.

6. Flawed clinical trials --- very sloppy experiments that fudge data or leave out essential variables, or worse yet, merely strike out any negative results and only include the positive ones.

7. Living in a Conspiracy-Driven Worldview -- self-explanatory.

Given all these factors, there is virtually no way for an outsider to break the feedback loop or discourage the believers.

vcheng

Mr_Shiftright: Your post has to be one of the best that I have ever read here on Edmund's.

bunnell

Why do people, when trying to revert to psychology always use the catch phrases and reasons that can be reversed back at themselves. I guess it is true that the person 1 step in front of the crowd is considered a genius. When a person is 2 or more steps in front, he or she is considered a crackpot

PF_Flyer

So while you keep questioning our doubts, I'll try asking again...

How about some PROOF instead of spin?

Can we even SEE some pics of the 80mpg car that you brought up?

Or maybe you'd rather just point us to a NASA study that really doesn't have any bearing on the matter again. :sick:

Mr_Shiftright

But the HHO generator is not two steps ahead, it's five steps behind....it's an old story..."the invention no one can actually demonstrate to be true".

I invented a flashlight that can burn a square hole through walls.

It can do it because I say so.

I'll sell you the plans for $100

My friend Eddie is burning square holes through walls right now as I speak to you.

Here's a photo of a hole he just made.



No I can't show you the flashlight, you have to build your own. Why should I have to prove my flashlight to you?

I'm a genius by the way. :P

PF_Flyer

That was GOOD Shifty :shades:

I assume your friend Eddie was using the octagonal sunglasses I invented to protect eyes from square light flashlights..LOL

Mr_Shiftright

Eddie has disappeared. We think the Makita Power Tool Company did him in.

bunnell

It seems that nobody paid any attention to the fact that hho won the day in court. Wonder how that happened. The FTC does not lose its cases against scams.

PF_Flyer

Gee... another claim of victory with NO links or reference, so I'm assuming this is the same as your interpretation of the Popular Mechanics article. That article did NOT say HHO works, yet you seem to think it did.
Could it be THIS scam artist you're referring to?
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2009/03/devicemaker_has_a_flair_for_dr.html

A judge deciding that a scammer doesn't have to be put out of business before a trail is NOT proof that his snake oil works.

Again, not one ounce of proof from the guy. Just claims. We're just supposed to believe him.

"President Obama said he wants car manufacturers to get an extra 10 miles per gallon by 2011," Lee said. "We could give it to him right now."

Saying it doesn't make it true. This is really simple. You have to prove it.

bunnell

I am discussing the end of the case where the federal judge Michael Shipp exonerates dennis lee

texases

Sorry, Lee wasn't 'exonerated'. The Judge ruled that the FTC had failed to adequately prove its case, based on the FTC not installing the stuff on a car to show that it didn't work. Too bad the FTC didn't do that. They may. The legal requirements for proof have gone through the roof...

qbrozen

wait a sec. Is this in the same link? I just read the whole story and see nothing about failing to prove the case.

texases

Sorry, different link, here's the one I found: HHO ruling

PF_Flyer

And there's quite a difference between "failed to make their case" and "HHO works"

Ooo... there's a picture on the link of a car that has a sign on it that says it gets 121mpg.

OK... yet another claim.... PROVE IT.

texases

And there's quite a difference between "failed to make their case" and "HHO works"

Absolutely. I'm advising a client that lost a previous lawsuit (absolutely slam dunk case, in the eyes of disinterested third parties) because, in the words of the jury members, 'The other side had one more expert, so we believed them.' Sheesh :sick:

Mr_Shiftright

Ah, the Chewbacca Defense, immortalized by South Park!

The FTC really played that badly. It would be so easy to prove the whole thing the scam that it is.

Well, he'll be out of business soon enough. The tidal wave of information against him is building. He knows he has to make his money and cut and run very very soon.

bunnell

I have a difficult time understanding why, unless they wanted to fail, the ftc wouldnt bring in their pros to prove something they want to prove. It makes absolutely no sense, unless!!!!!!!! This, after all, is only the 2nd case they failed to prove their point in that state. I am sure their lawyers know the proof requirements. I dont know why, if dennis lee is scamming on this hho (He may be. I dont know), the ftc didnt make sure of their information. Again, it makes no sense. I also have a difficult time thinking the ftc needs people making excuses for them. Of course, there is always the chance that they know something that you dont know, or dont want to know. I am reasonably certain dennis lee is not making enough money to buy off the government. I am also reasonably certain the federal judge wasnt bought off. I cannot figure out why they would even get involved in what should be, by all standards, a civil case, or a class action suit. It would seem like they dont have enough to do. According to how you say that you feel, something must be pretty rotten in Denmark for him to get away free. Me, well I personally do not know the man. I dont personally know anybody on this site either, so I try not to judge anybody. I simply disagree with some. Any judgement is only on what is said, I hope. Hey I dont claim to be perfect and might possibly have said something to offend. If so I appologise. If not,maybe my apology is in advance. HHO STILL WORKS in spite of what some people have said or will say. Good night all.

bunnell

Incidently, what is a chewbacca defense? I think I know what southpark is.

qbrozen

I was also thinking "why wouldn't they test it?!"
One reason that occurred to me is that maybe they were overconfident. Maybe they thought it was such a slam dunk case, such an obvious contradiction to basic science that they didn't need to go overboard with proof.

qbrozen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_defense

PF_Flyer

You keep SAYING that HHO works, but offer ZERO proof beyond your claims.

Do you understand why some of have doubts? You've made the claim. Show us some EVIDENCE. We've said we're willing to listen, but we're not going to accept it on faith.

That being said, I have NO doubt that you cannot, and will not ever offer any shred of proof of your claim that HHO works as you do not and cannot have any.

It's so obvious it's laughable. If the claims were true, the automakers could be turned around TODAY.

Huckster Lee claims in advertisements the device is guaranteed to boost mileage at least 50 percent.

If any of the automakers could have a device installed on their cars that would do that, they would be on it before I typed the end of this sentence. But they're not.

Hmm... I wonder why.

bunnell

Ok, now I know what a chewbacca defense is. I still dont see why the ftc lawyers wouldnt use the proper physicist or scientist as an expert witness, and have dennis install one of his boosters on a car. such a simple procedure would have saved tax payers money,andthe truth would be out for everybody to see. As it is now somebody is going to have to pay to do a scientific test with a panel of witnesses that is going to cost even more money. I have a comfortable retirement, but I cant pay for the kind of test and study that the govt would require. They had the perfect opportunity to prove or disprove then and there. I have my proof, and so do a lot of others around the world. I have a feeling, that somewhere, there is absolute proof that somebody does not want re-discovered. It would change a lot of minds, and make a lot of people quite angry at whoever has it hidden. I have pulled up a lot of patents on hho and studied them. In almost every case there is a reference to something that is not shown in the patent. Something is missing. I find it ridiculous to believe that a patent could be registered if it didnt work to the patent inspectors satisfaction. That would be the the absolute height of government folly.

Mr_Shiftright

Anyone can "apply" for a patent. It doesn't have to work. Patent office does not require a working model. The patent office doesn't test anything. And there's a difference between patent pending and patent granted as well, although neither proves the thing works.

Besides, Popular Mechanics latest test was as clear a message as you need that the HHO generator is a total scam.

I'm rather surprised you would defend this type of fraud.

bunnell

I read somewhere that a european automaker developed an engine with a 20 to 1 emission rate that is ma lot cleaner than FEDERAL mandates of a 14.7 to 1 ratio. They cleaned up the nox and everything else as far as pollution goes, but the government had already banned it from sale in the us. why arent the us automakers copying that technology. Why isnt the government allowing foriegn auto technology into the us that gets better fuel mileage. the technology is out there. The honda eu2000 generator with a 6 hp 4 stroke engine will run 7 to 8 hours under full load on one gallon of gas. Name anything american that will do the same. Why arent the american engines using the same design technics to make ours better? Everybody says there is no resistance to improvement of fuel efficiency. If that is the case, why did my 1968 buick wildcat convertable with a 430 ci engine, get the same mileage as my gas saving 1998 plymouth minivan with that little 4 cylinder engine? Of course, that was before I installed hho and increased my mileage. The honda generators, I know about because my sons use them in their work, and I got one for my personal use. It is sitting in my basement and weighs only 80 lbs. My old american generator was cumbersome, big and used a gallon of gas an hour. Check them out, if you like. Why doesnt our government mandate efficiency like that. The technology is there.

Mr_Shiftright

Why don't you sell your HHO generator to the US government. You'd probably get 500 million dollars for it (easily), world fame, the Nobel Prize in physics and the gratitude of an entire nation. What's stopping you? Modesty? You could become one of the richest men on earth.

Seems odd you would decline.

PF_Flyer

What's stopping him is easy. To sell it to the government, or a car company, you'd have to demonstrate it. And it's pretty clear that the LAST thing these folks want is the light of day shining on their miracle because that's when the daydream dies.

Mr_Shiftright

I'd sell my HHO generator to the US government. Then I'd take the money and buy General Motors and call it Joe Motors. And we'd only make sports cars. :P

bunnell

Check this out.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/energy/article974374.exe . I think you may be interested in the last few paragraphs. If you want credibility, you will find it there. If you dont, there is something wrong with your credibility

texases

Link doesn't work.

bunnell

http://wwwtampabay.com/news/business/energy/article974347.exe Sorry,I transposed the last 2 numbers

bunnell

Ok 3rd time has to be right http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/energy/article974347.exe sorry i am not as computer experienced as some

Mr_Shiftright

Found the article for you:

TAMPA BAY NEWS ON HHO

Here are some quotes from it:

""It is inconceivable to me that this gains you any miles per gallon," said Joseph Romm, who helped manage a program to develop clean energy technologies, including hydrogen, at the U.S. Department of Energy under President Bill Clinton."

"It's impossible to get more energy out of hydrogen than you use to create it, critics say."

""You muck around with your engine at your peril," said John Heywood, director of the Sloan Automotive Laboratory at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Installing something that changes the way an engine runs is something Heywood said he might do in the lab, "but I'm not relying on that to get me home."

THIS IS MY FAVORITE PART:

" In January, however, Barry Holzsweig opened what Shea says may be the first brick-and-mortar stores anywhere devoted to selling hydrogen fuel generators.

Holzsweig has his generator, called the Fuel Genie, made in Pinellas Park. He sells them for $499 installed at YourWater2Gas on U.S. 19 in Clearwater. He says his lawyer assures him they do not void a vehicle's warranty.

Holzsweig said he started selling hashish in the 1970s while living in Amsterdam, Netherlands, where it was legal. He could buy a kilo of hash for $400 and sell it for $8,000.

"I was doing it big-time," he said. He recalled the life: "Girls. Drugs. Booze. Aaah!"

In Germany, he said, he was arrested in 1976 and served a two-year sentence.

In 1980, he returned to the United States and worked for several companies as a building engineer. He got into acting and quit his job to become an independent TV producer. In Maryland, he produced award-winning shows called The Music Shop and Diana, Mike and the Rabbi. "



Now really, who are you going to believe, some flake who runs the Sloan Automotive Laboratory at MIT or the actual producer of "Mike and the Rabbi"?



Oh, Lord...satire is dead....

qbrozen

I'm sorry, but could you quote the credible part.
Are you referring to the guy who "thinks" he achieved a 10% improvement, but hasn't scientifically measured it? Oh, and says it will corrode the engine?

Mr_Shiftright

The only decent and remotely credible tests I've seen so far are Myth Busters and Popular Mechanics, and HHO failed miserably both times.

PM as you may recall, after having an HHO generator professionally built (and it looked like a beautiful fabrication, from Monster Garage I think), actually monitored fuel consumption electronically for extreme accuracy--even down to the amount of fuel passing the fuel injectors.

Results. No increase in fuel mileage whatsoever. Zilch, zero, nada.

I'm still waiting for one HHO zealot to step up to the plate and consent to have his car tested.

bunnell

I tend to believe in my own actions and the results of my actions, instead of what somebody else tells me to believe in. If somebody believes differently, well I guess that is his problem. I am one of the few that believes in themselves enough to try to do whatever I think may possibly work

Mr_Shiftright

Fine and dandy..... as long as you don't expect anyone else to believe it. Your personal reality is your business, certainly, but when you ask people to believe the impossible, you risk being taken to task to prove it.

What you are actually describing is more akin to religion than to science.

PF_Flyer

Don't point us to selected snippets of articles that you feel support your position (even though you ignore everything in the article that goes against it).

You say it works. You've said your son gets 80 mpg on his car. So SHOW us. Take some photos of the device on your car. Show us some charts of your calculated mileage. Give us SOMETHING besides references to NASA reports that have nothing to do with anything.

If you've actually done this, show us what you've done... if you can.

bunnell

I have never once asked you to believe anything that you dont want to believe. I may be guilty of asking people to have an open mind and to believe in themselves enough to be adventurous in life, to try something new and maybe, just maybe, enjoy life a little more. Go out and experiment with something new instead of living in the fear that nothing works because somebody made up a law that says it wont. I thought I was the old man here, set in my ways. Religion is believing in the ways in which you were raised and taught as a youngster. Adventure is having enough courage to find a different path. Even if you arent the first to go, you may find something new. I am the one who is old and retired here, but it seems that I am still the one who wants to take that old yamaha 500 enduro and race, even if I dont win. I never want to get complacent enough to not try to do or learn something new. I never want to be so set in my "religion" as you suggested, that I cant do and continue to do the things I enjoy. I like to tinker with things, to try to make the difficult things easier. I enjoy being a bit of a rebel. It kind of keeps the juices flowing and life doesnt stagnate. Ever since I was old enough to join the military and get away from the farm where I was raised, I turned my life into an adventure of one kind or another. I will admit that I did not care for Viet nam, and after Bush 1 and my stint in the persion gulf, I decided that I had enough of the military. I had to learn a new life style as a civilian, and that is an adventure in itself. Besides it is quite difficult to keep up with the 20 year olds when you are in your late 40s. So believe what you want, do what you want, and enjoy your own life. Just dont tell me to see things the way you see them. I would rather be my own free spirit.

PF_Flyer

I didn't ask for a dissertation on beliefs. I simply asked you to show us the 80 mpg car you claimed. I've asked you to show us the device on your car. But we never get anything but rambling musings that have nothing to do with anything.

You've done more to show that HHO is a scam than any skeptic ever could have. :P

bunnell

Because I will not be accused of sending a doctored video, along of all the other accusations that have been shot back at me. I thought this was supposed to be a discussion of pros and cons. I didnt start accusing anybody. Why dont you do your best to build one and send a video to prove it doesnt work? Now that would be a switch, and it would be the only one on the net. It may get a lot of attention

vcheng

"Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with his experience".

Good advice under some circumstances no doubt.

bunnell

Sounds right. So I guess I will stop arguing with you.

PF_Flyer

How many times do we have to say it? We WANT this to be an idea that works. You keep saying it works, but offer NO proof. When given a chance to offer proof, you say that you won't because you don't want to be accused of fabricating evidence.

Well if it actually works, you won't have that problem, correct? You'll be able to answer any questions we come up with because you will have facts to back it up. And you have to accept the fact that with such a fantastic claim that there WILL be questions.

This IS a discussion of pros and cons.

It has been DEMONSTRATED by reputable sources that HHO doesn't do anything.

It has been CLAIMED by you that it works.

I don't have to build something that I know doesn't work to demonstrate that it doesn't work. Having said that, I'm keeping an open mind that there's possibly something that I don't understand about physics that you do that has enabled you to succeed where it seems impossible. Make no mistake, I have SERIOUS doubts that it works, but I'm willing to listen to what you might have to say.

But if all you have to say is "it works", that's never going to be enough and is going to leave HHO mixed in with the the long list of fuel saving scams that have been around forever.

The lack of willingness to offer even a shred of evidence speaks volumes about whether HHO works or not.

vcheng

Thank you. It is a very good idea. JUST PLEASE STOP!

qbrozen

Why dont you do your best to build one and send a video to prove it doesnt work?

Because you are asking me to waste my time and risk damaging my car. It goes back to my comparison a while back about not jumping off my roof because physics tells me I can't fly. Why in the world would I risk my life by jumping off my roof just to prove to you that you are wrong?

vcheng

... I have tried peeing in my car's gas tank. Since I am imbued with all sorts of holy goodness, my car just runs and runs without needing any gasoline at all.

Please try it. IT WORKS! And if it doesn't, your pee is lacking in essential nutrients and holy goodness required for increasing the energy content.

Please contact me directly on easy 53 step instructions on how to increase the energy content of your pee. Don't forget to ask about the 19.99 special to increase the octane rating to premium if your car's manufacturer specifies it so that there are no issues with warranty coverage.

qbrozen

LOL!!!

vcheng

Shame on you for laughing at such a pious advance in energy independence! I am being TOTALLY serious.

If you repent NOW, I will also tell you about my Rent-a-Pee service that will enable you to drive around on the high-octane pee of Bernardine Monks specially trained for the job. Minimum RON of 104!

PF_Flyer

Clearly, the ball is in the court of those who wish do demonstrate that HHO works.

As much fun as we have with our "alternative" fuel saving methods and devices (I think that eating jelly donuts helps your mileage, but even if they don't, you get to eat them) I DO want to give bunnell a chance to show us something... ANYTHING... to support the claim "HHO works" beyond the mere claim.

So in the interest of fact-finding, how about we come up with some reasonable questions that would be interesting to have the answers to?

Perhaps we can work our way to some actual information and see what it is we apparently don't see now.

Remember bunnell, we can't trap you if you've actually got something that works, so questions like the following should be easy to answer...

What kind of car did you install the device on?

What was the mileage before and after?

What modifications, if any, did you have to make to the car besides simply installing the device?

Does the car pass safety and emissions inspections?

How are you measuring mileage?

Can you show us data on your mileage, like dates of fillups, miles driven between fillups, etc?

There certainly will be follow up questions, but these are REASONABLE questions in the face of the claims being made. Hearing some answers to questions like this would be a good place to get a fresh start here.

No accusations, just looking for information instead of spin.