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BTW.. I've checked for used, and have found little other then 'demo' models. The prices aren't any better then new. Are the Flex's selling that well?
I do get several offers from different dealerships, and I know they are all talking about the same vehicle.
It is a 2009 FWD Ford Flex SEL model with vista roof and white two-tone roof, redfire color for the bottom. It also has the other optional equipments:
2ND ROW 40/40 SEATS-AUTOFOLD
WHITE TWO-TONE ROOF
The drive out price that they provide is 29635.40 , which is averagely about 3000 dollars lower than the prices that other dealership provide. This price is definitely very attractive for me and I want to go down there and have a try, but will there be any hidden risk here that I don't see? Can anyone tell me what I should pay attention to?
Thank you very much for any inputs.
Have a great weekend! :lemon:
It's impossible to know what is being proposed without this information.
+499.00 Appearance Protection (added by dealer)
+99.00 Nitro (added by dealer)
+249.00 Theft Protection (added by dealer)
-2,596.02 X Plan
$35.030.98 SELLING PRICE
- $2,500.00 trade-in value (which is nothing near what research says it to be)
$32,530.98 ADJUSTED PRICE
$35,543.35 BALANCE Due with tax, tag, tire/battery fee, and Dealer Svc. Fee
I'm wanting the starting price to be $36,500 instead of $38,880. And maybe add a little more to the trade-in. Is that totally out of line? The salesman said "Ford" wouldn't allow them to negotiate the price any differently since we were given the X Plan and rebates. Is that true?
Any advice is much appreciate!
If, what you mean is that vehicle's X-Plan price is $36,283.98, you're already below your desired starting point for negotiation and, I'd wager, dealer invoice. However, with respect to your math (which nets-out at $35,130.98 BTW), it's rather impossible to know given everything else you've rolled-in to further obscure the actual figures (and also doing a fair share of the salesperson's work for him/her), As for trade-in value, tax, title, other compulsory fees, and rebates, they have no business as part of your negotiations as they have absolutely nothing to do with the purchase price.
Your trade-in is something you're going to have to simply weigh on your own whether the dealer is offering you enough to make it worth your while to accept their offer rather than selling it outright, keeping in mind that any trade allowance will also likely reduce the total sales tax you eventually pay. Taxes and other legislated fees are universally applicable costs that everyone pays and cannot be negotiated. (Though if this "Dealer Service Fee" you mention is any more than a nominal amount or a term the dealer uses instead of "additional profit", you should add your own line-item deduction for "Consumer Time and Attention" for precisely twice that amount.
The rebate does NOT reduce the vehicle's purchase price. It is monies rebated to you after the purchase, toward your downpayment. In addition to the myriad obvious reasons why rebates are not appropriate elements in the negotiated purchase price, unless you live in a small handful of states where things are done differently, you will pay sales tax on any rebates you receive.
With respect to the dealer-installed items, they are part of the vehicle; and unless the dealer can and is willing to remove them from the vehicle, you are going to have to pay something for them which should be determined as an additional amount separate and distinct from the negotiated cost of the vehicle itself. Unless they are OEM Ford accessories, as some remote start and security systems can be, they are also likely to be most profitable items for the dealer. I have no idea whatever the hell "Appearance Protection" could be and why it would cost $499.00 when the warranty covers the paint and body against corrosion and your insurance protects you against damage, but it sure smacks of Jerry Lundergaard hawking "Tru-Coat". Even so, they're part of the purchase that you're going to have to contend with accordingly if you want to buy that particular vehicle.
While X-Plan is a fixed-price, nothing prevents the dealer from selling it conventionally as a freely-negotiated sale for any amount they choose. They may say they "can't", which means they "don't want to", as any further reduction will simply come from the dealer's post-sale profit margin. The dealer is also free to pay you any amount it chooses for your trade-in. However he chooses to do his bookkeeping beyond that point is of no nevermind to you, provided the dealer doesn't use it as an opportunity to hide other expenses or use it as a pretense for resisting further concessions which, as I've described, is precisely why nothing could put you at a greater disadvantage than negotiating a "final price" without first resolving each of its constituent elements.
The numbers I previously input came directly from the dealers "work sheet" and was incorrectly typed $499.00 instead of $399.00 for the Appearance Protection so the math did appear screwy. We were told Appearance Protection was a polymer wax/sealant on the outside and industrial Scotchguard on the inside seats and carpet - but the seats are leather (go figure!).
Regarding your Rebate information - still a bit unclear. The dealer listed the rebates we qualified for prior to the quoted "Selling Price" (as indicated in our first posting). Are you saying the rebates should not be included at that point? And if not, when do they get included. And then the rebates change depending on finance options...very confusing...
Again - appreciate your assistance MADLOCK!
I would ask the dealer how many customers whose vehicle did not include the dealer-applied "Protection Package" independently chose to have it applied after-the-fact. While ScotchGard is a great idea, it's also about $7 a can and ideally should be reapplied periodically and after major cleanings to ensure its efficacy. You may want to invest in a couple of cans to set on the dealer's desk to go with your "no thank you".
You should also ask what super-secret formula they use to protect the exterior by specific name, calling them to account for either why it doesn't seem to be among those used by the most reputable of detailers and refinishers, or why, when applied by a detailer, typically costs 50% less. You may not be able to eliminate the entire expense, but you can certainly try to compel them to reduce the amount they charge to a "reasonable" one (though how choosing to detail a new vehicle would be "reasonable" is a mystery and another question to which I'm sure they'd offer an amusing, if not plausible, answer).
$34,900 MSRP for a 2009 Ford Flex SEL, Cinnamon metallic w/ white roof, medium light stone leather, SYNC, 2nd row captains/console w/ push button seat flip, roof rails, rubber mats.
-$1950 X-Plan discount
-$3500 Cash back
-$1500 First 3 payments incentive
-$1500 GM owner cash incentive
-$750 Potential buyer certificate
Total - $25,700 +tax/title/fees
This is a sweet ride but it feels even sweeter when you get a great deal!
Did you bring the brochure for the discount in yourself?
No brochure was needed they just gave me the discount. My salesman just called me up and said "you qualify for an extra $750 off" I was like OK!! I definitely feel lucky to have worked with an honest dealership. I did my research and knew of the extra incentives but I didn't even have to ask. My next car will definitly will be purchased at Royal Oak Ford.
I know this sounds like a sales pitch but I've had horrible treatment from some GM dealerships. Just trying to get the price they "advertise" was a pain. With GM's lack of quality it was a no brainer to jump on the Ford bandwagon. And, man, did it payoff!
The EB Flex is crazy quick; and though indisputably fun, and even beneficial in certain climates, all that oomph the way the EB provides it would be largely lost on me in such a high COG vehicle. For me, the convenience of Active Park Assist would have been an almost-comparable benefit to EB itself.
On the other hand, give me the EB in a sedan, every time. Ironically, I just purchased an MKS this past weekend, and I was prepared to go "whole hog", until I was made aware of how incentivized the 2009 units were, plus dealers' further desire to negotiate to move out their 2009 stock. While the EB 2010 MKS would have been very reasonable, albeit expensive, and otherwise comparably-equipped 2009 suddenly more than $9K less expensive and the 2010 EB all-but-impossible to justify. It's not that the 2010 EB MKS was so unreasonably expensive, the 2009 MKS just became too heavily subsidized to ignore.
The Taurus and Flex are hopelessly overpriced, too. Honestly, Ford is way too proud of its cars when competitor vehicles offering as much or more can be had for many, many thousands less.
I don't get people paying 30k for a Ford let alone 35k or even 40k.
The 2010 all new Mercedes E Class, which is a technological and engineering marvel, can be had for 46k, and the Hyundai Genesis can be had for an eyelash under 30k, with TONS of standard equipment.
It also happens to be an exceptionally profitable vehicle for Ford, earning them some of the highest gross margins in their history. Guesstimating a vehicles "success" based solely upon how many may seem to be roaming on the road is one of the most error-prone presumptions possible. How are they selling versus the E-Class, I wonder.
The tremendous satisfaction and exceptional reviews the Flex has won has also provided Ford tremendous benefit in terms of the perceived (and actual) quality of its vehicles in the marketplace. The same is true of the 2010 Taurus which has been deliberately priced to be an aspirational vehicle, the result of which does not merely produce sales of other Flexes and Tauruses. It has helped win customers back to the brand as a whole.
Ford knows precisely what they are doing; and in a market that's otherwise floundering, they happen to be succeeding.
I personally think the tactic is... Price these vehicles super high, then offer incentives to what Ford really thinks the car is worth. This way they budget for the "incentive" price and if they get "MSRP" then bonus for them.
They are pretty popular here in Los Angeles. I see them all the time. These vehicles are capable of moving a lot of people or stuff - the design is very efficient compared to a full size SUV.
Had they been available when I turned in my Freestyle lease a couple of years ago, I might well have bought one myself...
I just drive the Flex and LOVE it. Amazing room and very comfortable seats...not to mention awesome features like ambient lighting, nav with rearview camera, sync,
fridge, and more.
Can someone please post all of the rebates that you can still get on a 2009?
$1500 Bonus Cash
Can someone let me know more details on:
-$1950 X-plan (I assume this just gets you down to close to invoice?)
-$1500 first 3 payments incentive (I plan on putting down $20k so would think I would qualify...is this still going on?)
-$1500 GM Owner cash (I just sold my 2008 Tahoe...would I qualify?)
-$750 buyer certificate (is this still active? details?
From this list of rebates, it looks like I could get around $10k off list. Correct?
So a $40k Limited for $30k.
The amount, and even the existence, of certain incentives can vary greatly, as much as 100% from one locale to another.
For GM owner cash, you will need to trade-in a GM vehicle. For a $750 "Buyer Certificate", you must first have obtained one from Ford. And you must qualify for X-Plan to be eligible for the discount which, yes, is usually within 1% of dealer invoice depending upon vehicle, trim, and options. X-Plan is not as much a "discount" as a pre-determined vehicle price that can be expressed in terms of the difference from the sticker price. It will vary from vehicle to vehicle.
Basing upon retail rebates for Texas (all of which are available directly from the Ford web site), the rebates being offered for the 2009 Flex are $3,500 ($4,000 for SEL) OR 0% APR up to 60 months and 1.9% for 72.
If you want to know whether you qualify for any further rebates and incentives, just call or visit your local dealer and ask them to run a Vincent report based upon your information. They can tell you exactly what is available.
I will try to find out more.
I did discover that the GM rebate I listed above is not for trading in a GM. It is a conquest rebate for owning a GM. You just have to show your title and or registration information to get it.
Going to contact a LOT of dealers all over Texas and surrounding states to find the best price on a 2009.
2009 Flex Limited - Nav, DVD, Sunroof, fridge, etc.
$31,900 after all rebates (before TTYL and tax writeoff)
It did pay off to contact a lot of dealers too BTW. Some are willing to give you the holdback money and other incentives from the GM or owner.
I would be a buyer at that number also. I am in NC where the supply seems sparse. I priced 2010's but your numbers on the 2009 Limited are impressive. Well done.
"If I had one I couldn’t get close to that ($31,900) now I do see a demo that is close to that price if I owned it the best I could do would be 39565.20 which is the Invoice price. There is only 5000 in rebates so I would be able to do 34565.20 so in order to get to that price of 31900 I would have to lose 2665.20. "
How did you get the $2,665? Teach me
The normal retail consumer rebates and incentives vary WIDELY from state to state. For example, NJ receives some of the lowest, while MI receives some of the highest, and they can vary as much as $2,000-$3,000. Furthermore, there are also "trim level" incentives that provide another $500 to the SEL given the unexpected oversupply resulting from the unexpected favorable response to those with the Limited trim.
In addition to the retail rebates are those that may or may not apply to individual customers. For example, Ford is offering "conquest" rebates in some area to those who are trading-in (and in some areas merely own) a particular competitor's vehicle, and other discounts like those who happen to be recent college graduates, police association or XYZ Club members also exist on an individual basis. Ford also offers a $750 "brochure" discount on certain models to customers who have requested printed marketing materials sent from the Ford (or LM) website.
Ford also offers thier "X-Plan" discount, which is offered to employees of certain business "affiliates", qualified Ford shareholders, and certain other individuals. This is effectively a "flat rate" price at or near dealer invoice. And, from time to time, Ford also adds an additional incentive to X-Plan buyers atop all others.
Beyond that, Ford occasionally (but not usually) offers "marketing support" to dealers in the form of cash incentives that the dealer may, but is not obligated to, share with customers. Any other money "left in the vehicle" for the dealer to share (before taking a "loss") would be the 3% (of sticker) holdback each dealer receives from Ford post-sale.
That doesn't mean that's the limit of a dealer's willingness to negotiate, (although it usually ends WELL before a "net zero" sale). However, some dealers may find themselves with either excess or slow-moving inventory or are in need of cash and are willing to take the proverbial "bird in the hand". In some cases, dealers have purchased inventory at a song from nearby dealers who have liquidated and are willing to simply clear what they can for the quick turn of a cheap buck.
As recommended before, you should ask your sales associate to show you the "Smart Vincent" report that contains ALL of the current incentives you happen to be qualified to receive, including any others that may exist for the particular model and trim you're interested in buying. That will give you a better "apples to apples" idea of any discounts you can obtain regardless of where you ultimately buy your Flex (or any Ford vehicle), and you can then be better prepared to negotiate on the basis of what a particular dealer might be willing to offer in addition.
2 nights ago, I emailed 19 area dealers via the "Contact Us" link via the dealer page accessible from the Ford Auto website, specifying the exact vehicle I wanted to order. I did provide full contact information, but answered no phone calls and insisted on email negotiation. 1 or 2 never responded and several others insisted on me calling to confirm options. 1 dealer only offered MSRP unless I came into the showroom. Most dealers came in about $500 over invoice, a few were up at $1000 over invoice, 4 came in at or slightly under invoice. After additionally haggling with those few, 2 arrived at the final price. This is the 2nd time I've purchased a car this way, and it really beats the chat on the showroom floor that always takes way too long. In some ways the salesperson also benefits, as they are free to meet-and-greet showroom customers while this is going on. In any event, I'm sure I'm going to get awfully impatient waiting the expected 8 weeks for the Flex to arrive...
My wait time for the car I ordered will be more than eight weeks - check the fordflex.net forum for updates for more info from those who have ordered...
The guy that gave the $100 under TMV indicated in his email that they are a "No hassle, no haggle dealership". I have never purchased a car online - does anybody know if the dealership have some negotiation room or if they really do not "haggle"?
I would like to get my hands on the Limited but if the dealer doesn't budge, I will end up with the SEL. Does anybody have any tips on how to shave the price down? BTW, I have a pre-approved loan from the credit union - does this help any?
In my case, I found 2 that were willing to go down to $500 or more below invoice - the one who went to $800 below invoice had a $500 dealer fee, negating the savings. I don't think you should have to settle for Edmunds TMV (if the TMV is an average or a median, there must be many purchasers who do better than TMV). Try countering at a few hundred below the real invoice price, and see if anyone bites (at the very least, I would think you'd get at least one of the dealers to move in your direction).
Also, in my area, there is very little inventory of Flexes - the closest dealer to me had none in stock as of 2 weeks ago. If the same is true in your area, I would guess that if you order one to be built, you'll probably get a better price than if you are selecting one from the lot (since the dealer would probably figure that someone would pay more for the one that could be driven off immediately).
I am ordering a Flex Limited or SEL (just cant decide about Navi and perforated leather) and have been quoted invoice pricing. I am told that I will be eligible for rebates and financing in place at time of delivery. Any thoughts on this and whether I should/could do better.
They say about 8 weeks for delivery.
Is it risky to do this or are members here confident that incentives ought to only imrpove as we near the end of the year?
Treat it like a used car. Invoice less some figure. I ordered a 2010 and got it for $200 under invoice and it was brand new. Remember that you get the rebates from Ford, not the dealer, so he's not doing you any favors. I'd negotiate hard from the invoice price down. I'd start with an opening offer of $2,000 under invoice. The invoice price is what the dealer pays before he sells the car; after the car is sold, Ford sends the dealer a holdback payment of 3% of the car's MSRP.
In addition, it's a demo and they're usually not driven lightly.
I just got my Flex Limited and I really like the nav system! The screen does so much more than the nav - audio, heating and cooling functions and with the engine off you can even watch a dvd on the screen! I like the perforated leather seats as well.
It's a bit of a gamble to wait and see just what incentives and rebates are going to be available. In my case they went up. In about a month, go to the Ford website and request a Flex brochure though the mail; mine had a $750 rebate certificate on the last page.
Thank you for the response and advice. Is the idea to request a brochure after I order the car and then bring that to the table when the car comes in?
I was just about to go back to Honda and get another Odyssey on a 3 year lease, so your upbeat email and thoughts on the navi have swayed me again.
You were able to get $200 under invoice and then used your $750 rebate on top of the other rebates and offers available? Seems they would not offer both the $1000 (or whatever it is) and the $750, but great for you if you did get it.
You can order the brochure at any time, but it has an expiration date that's six or eight weeks from the day you requested it. I ordered my Flex on 2 Sep and got it on Halloween morning. The brochure would have expired on 2 Nov.
There have been some parts disruption delays plaguing Flex production - a violent labor strike in India shut production down for a week last month - and that's why I recommended the wait.
I live in IL and got three rebates: $1,000 + $1,500 + $750 = $3,250!
The salesman had never seen one of the brochure rebates, but he checked with Ford's Smart Vincent program and was happy to apply it. The brochure rebate had "May be combined with any other offer>" or some such thing written on the front. It does have to be addressed to you to be redeemed...
I got the invoice - $200 price through the Costco buyer's program. Prices through Costco vary from state to state and might be better or worseOverstock.com has a program if you're not a Costco member, but I don't know what kind of deal they'll provide you with.
From there, your proposal for the "demo" driven vehicle is sheer math. With about 3% of the car's useful life having been consumed, I'd offer 97% of dealer invoice, keeping in mind that the miles driven will have come off the warranty left on the vehicle.
Dealers usually try to pass-off these employee benefit costs to customers, but I wouldn't let them. 97% is MORE than reasonable, and if they start claiming that they'd be selling the vehicle "at a loss", that's the time to thank them for throwing-in their 3% post-sale "holdback". If the dealership wants to let its employees drive its inventory like it's their personal garage, that's the dealer's business; but if he can't afford to do it, he shouldn't.
Higher price than quoted w/ higher down payment
Options taken off vehicle that were requested
Higher monthly payment than quoted
Terrible customer service
Refusal to correct situation
Took money from rebate w/out explanation
Royal Oak Ford = Bad Deal
How could the dealer have increased the downpayment amount? The amount to pay or finance is entirely up to the buyer (unless, of course, the buyer was not able to qualify for the kind of financing that would permit a low or no downpayment).
How could they have removed options from a vehicle? Unless they perhaps removed the floor mats or switched wheels from what the vehicle's window sticker specified, I'm not aware of any Flex options that could be deinstalled. Which particular vehicle (VIN number) did you attempt to buy?
With respect to a monthly payment, math is math is math. The monthly payment is going to be product of the amount borrowed and a certain interest rate divided into equal payments over a certain duration. Were they deliberately falsifying the math? Or was this perhaps the result of not qualifying for a particular promotional interest rate due to creditworthiness (or lack thereof)?
How can a dealer "take money" from a rebate that's either paid directly to you by Ford or immediately credited toward your downpayment? In fact, collecting rebates from Ford requires your signature beneath an explicit listing of the rebates to be applied and how they will be paid. Which specific rebate did the dealer deny you and on what basis?
As far as refusing to correct "the situation", unless they happened to make a math error (which their computerized sales contract software would have more-than-likely caught), what specifically did Royal Oak not do that you otherwise believe they could or should have done?
Even if your creditworthiness didn't qualify you for promotional interest rates being offered, you must have still had the opportunity to simply purchase the vehicle without financing for the agreed-upon total. Did Royal Oak refuse to allow you to buy the vehicle without financing it through them? Did you not obtain your own independent financing under terms that reflected the "correct" math (even if it may not have been with the no-down/no-interest terms to which you believe you should have been entitled)?
Despite all of these unresolved matters, did you proceed to buy the vehicle anyway? If so, was any part of your purchase different from the sales contract you signed? If you agreed to pay more or receive less than previously agreed, I guess I just don't understand why you would have. Were the dealership doors locked and was every other Ford dealership within a day's drive closed, or without access to any Flexes?
Of course, if you chose to walk away, there was no "situation" to correct, nor could they have "taken off" any options or money from rebates that would be nonexistent. Then too, if there was no transaction, there was no "scam" to speak of. Otherwise, if you decided to purchase the Flex according to the terms presented, what aspect of that could anyone describe as a "scam"?
So, unless they deliberately misrepresented some aspect of the transaction or failed to live up to a certain aspect of the purchase to which they had agreed, it seems that there was no "scam" under either scenario; and claiming that there was, especially in such a public manner might very well be a better example of libel than what you have described as being such a "scam", presuming, of course, the transaction occurred, which would have been required for a "scam" to exist.
I'd be interested in knowing more.
Haven't had to pull the trigger until now -- we are adding a third child to our family and the Jeep is just not going to cut it anymore...
Ended up getting this final deal for the 2010 Ford Flex SEL w/ Class III Trailer, & Roof Rails.
MSRP (Including $775 D&D Charge) - $33,835
A Plan Price - $30,800
Taxes (we get taxed on whole price before rebates) - $1850
Total with Tax (prior to rebates) - $32650
Rebates - $3500
Out the Door Price - $29,150
Dollars off MSRP before Tax = $6,535
Dollats off MSRP after Tax = $4,685
I tried to use the $750 Mailer Coupon and the $500 School Discount, but was told by multiple dealers that they could not apply this to the A Plan price (not sure if this is correct or not). There was also a $1500 Lease Conquest rebate but I do not currently have a lease therefore I did not qualify.
I think I got a pretty good deal, but what do you all think?
Lastly, I mentioned above that I chose Ford over the Chrysler product. I was really torn, being that they cost me about the same dollars. Bottom line, it came down to whether I wanted the bells & whistles (i.e. DVDs, Backup Cam, and MyGig) with the Chrysler but perceived (considering this site's review) quality probelms witht he vehicle itself OR a little less featues and excellent quality ratings on the Flex (except for the looks itself - they have to grow on you). Needless to say, I chose the Ford.
The only thing I am coming away with that is a little unsettling is the warrenty. Obviously the Chrysler warrenty blows Fords out of the water. It roughly costs another ~$1000 at Ford to get them to equal out.
Gonna pick up Wednesday. Any feedback prior to then is appreciated.
Hope this post helps you all out as well.
The most important factor is whether or not you could have negotiated a better price than A Plan (about $1,000 below invoice) using the full spate of consumer incentives. From the sounds of it, you'd have about broken even anyway. And since the dealer makes a fixed stipend from Ford for the A Plan sale, it probably worked best for everyone and isn't really worth worrying about.
I look at this backword and forward -- with A plan and without A plan. And I really am out of angles for the best discount.
That being said, I am extremely curious how you bought a 2009 Flex Limited AWD w/ Vista Roof, Navigation, 40/40, Refrigerator, Family DVD, and Tow Package, which has a MSRP of $45,010 for $29,142 prior to tax and title. Please teach this guy how that is even possible, because basically you got $15K off which is Godly. I know that no incentives existed for $10K+ even if you had A plan. So did the dealer lose $5K+ on this deal?
I am truly interested to learn from the master...let me know
Would you be kind enough to break down your purchase of your 2009 Flex?
It helps to see other folks approach when going to buy a car...and it seems like you have a pretty good handle on how to get the best deal.