What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

stever

Toyota doesn't have to do any enticing - VW is doing all that work for them.

It does offer food for thought about the next industry consolidation although a match between VW and FCA might make a bit more sense that an German alliance with a Japanese or Korean company. VW seems to have hit a wall in China.

fintail

The last time the Germans and Italians got together, it didn't end well, in some ways because one wasn't up to speed with the other. I fear a VW/FCA marriage would see similar results.

Toyota certainly isn't doing any enticing in the design realm.

stever

VW is going to be hurting for a while longer in the US so long as fuel costs are so low. SUVs and trucks are where the money is here. Jeep is the shining star that's keeping Sergio in the black.

But I guess VW needs to get it's diesel emissions act together before thinking about M&A.

ruking1

stever said:

Toyota doesn't have to do any enticing - VW is doing all that work for them.

It does offer food for thought about the next industry consolidation although a match between VW and FCA might make a bit more sense that an German alliance with a Japanese or Korean company. VW seems to have hit a wall in China.

VW, on the other hand has done a lot to keep its' customers! They have also offered very generous markdowns to folks that are current & potential customers!! There have been a few articles since September outlining exactly what I am saying !

Trust me, when I had issues with Honda @ Toyota & IF they offered to just fix the issues, let alone offer the same or similar C/C packages as VW, I'd still be in their parking lots! Keep in mind, I've had more Japanese cars than VW diesels!

I, in turn amI looking forward to my second $ $1,000 ! There is also talk of buybacks for the so called "earlier models" or 2009 VW TDI's!?

So when Toyota had the Prius brouhaha, circa 2004, did they offer their current Prius owners customer care packages for $1000!??? Did they contemplate buy backs?? NO! NO! In case one wants to ignore the obvious, case closed!

If VW buys back the 2009 TDI & if I choose to replace it, & take advantage of favorable terms, it's a no-brainer to get another diesel, given the current offerings on the market ! http://finance.yahoo.com/news/volkswagen-pay-buy-back-customers-115917888.html

While not in US markets EV sales are not hot & far from smokin. This is true even as Germany is way farther along in win& solar than the US! http://news.yahoo.com/germany-considers-5-500-incentive-electric-cars-173011271--business.html

gagrice

fintail said:

The last time the Germans and Italians got together, it didn't end well, in some ways because one wasn't up to speed with the other. I fear a VW/FCA marriage would see similar results.

Toyota certainly isn't doing any enticing in the design realm.

I would think the Germans learned their lesson with Chrysler dragging Daimler down. I can see VW buying Jeep and Ram to fill a niche there. Nothing else Chrysler has is worth having. Though facing a WW recession I don't think any radical moves would make sense. Wait and pick up the pieces.

ruking1

I think the main reasons for all these goings-on are really simple: ...cost cutting! The governmental & labor union sides ( some hidden entities also) need to feel the white hot heat of customer DEMAND or LACK there of!

gagrice

While not in US markets EV sales are not hot & far from smokin. This is true even as Germany is way farther along in win& solar than the US

The only countries pushing EVs that I know of is Norway & Denmark. Of course Norway gets over 90% of their electricity from super cheap hydro power. They are giving huge tax breaks to EV buyers. May be the only thing keeping Tesla afloat. Germany has higher electric prices than the USA. You don't get free power from the Sun and Wind by any measure.

http://www.ibtimes.com/tesla-owners-norway-get-134000-tax-break-which-more-base-price-model-s-1507740

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/17/business/international/norway-is-global-model-for-encouraging-sales-of-electric-cars.html

ruking1

gagrice said:

While not in US markets EV sales are not hot & far from smokin. This is true even as Germany is way farther along in win& solar than the US

The only countries pushing EVs that I know of is Norway & Denmark. Of course Norway gets over 90% of their electricity from super cheap hydro power. They are giving huge tax breaks to EV buyers. May be the only thing keeping Tesla afloat. Germany has higher electric prices than the USA. You don't get free power from the Sun and Wind by any measure.

http://www.ibtimes.com/tesla-owners-norway-get-134000-tax-break-which-more-base-price-model-s-1507740

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/17/business/international/norway-is-global-model-for-encouraging-sales-of-electric-cars.html

Yup! For all those that can afford $ 110,000 for a car & get $134,000 for a tax credit....Oh yeah !

The real secret to electrical prices once the wind solar infrastructure is more... Ah, ...mature ! WAY higher electrical price, coming to you as you embrace wind & solar! HUGE DAH here!

Funny with all of this diesel gate brouhaha, not a diesel in the bunch? http://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/7-cars-their-owners-cant-wait-to-get-rid-of.html/

ruking1

Anyone can Google this Yahoo (?) article: In 2015, Ram added approximately 67,668 diesel PU truck units or 15% of total production to the diesel PVF ! Together with the 2015 VW diesel PVF (app 25% or 87,500 units), it is NOT a case for the "death of diesel" However, it is a very strong case for SLOW diesel niche market growth, like I have been saying all along ! Ford is finally looking to add a F150 DIESEL option. GM is also offering 2 models of compact diesel truck options. This is not to leave out other diesel OEM offerings, such as: BMW, MB, Lan/Range Rover, Chevrolet Cruise, light van products, etc.

Adding just those two numbers, (from just two OEM's) added 155,168/17.5 M 2015 sales or .089 % or a tad under 1%.

ruking1

Diesel, still part of the big picture!? http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-02-01/bofa-the-oil-crash-is-kicking-off-one-of-the-largest-wealth-transfers-in-human-history?cmpid=yhoo.headline

gagrice

ruking1 said:

Diesel, still part of the big picture!? http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-02-01/bofa-the-oil-crash-is-kicking-off-one-of-the-largest-wealth-transfers-in-human-history?cmpid=yhoo.headline

The more gas the US, EU and China use the more diesel will be produced looking for buyers. That would be US that own diesels. We are under 2 bucks for diesel still over $2.50 for RUG. Longest stretch in 10 years of keeping records that diesel is cheaper than RUG.

ruking1

For all the "magic wand" people that want diesels to go away, the ratio realities of 10 gal of diesel to 19 gal of gasoline in a 42 gal barrel of oil pops them on the head, knocking off the rose colored glasses! They want Europe to use less percentage diesel ? That would mean way more ULSD @ lower prices!?

Ford seems to be bent on besting the 2016/2017 RAM diesel (67,668 in 2015) So, say Ford posts 15% diesel units (2015 Ram diesel production) of F150's total production, Ford could possibly add 117,053 diesel units! ? That would be more TDI units than VW posts!?

stever

Haven't checked the differential here in a long time. GasBuddy says the cheapest stations run:

$1.53 RUG (Sam's is $1.49, but I don't count them)
$1.72 Premium
$1.89 Diesel

So thirty/thirty-five cents a gallon. That used to be the RUG to Premium differential.

And yet again I wonder why the stations bother to sell Midgrade gas.

ruking1

There is roughly 9%/10% of the PVF that can or are " mandated" to use PUG. I am guessing that MG is seen as a viable "economy" product. Some can see it as a intermediate "premium" product, for those that use RUG? I, for one never get it! So that $.35 might be the difference between economic life and death for the fueling stations!?

Even Costco (Folsom, CA) plays the game!? ULSD $ 1.89, RUG $2.09, PUG $ 2.33 (snow was great!)

stever

Yeah, I can't remember the last time I got any (if ever).

texases

The stations sell mid-grade because they make more money off it, it's often 1/3 the octane bump for 1/2 the price bump. Cheaper to fill with 1/2 RUG and 1/2 PUG, but that's inconvenient.

stever

And if your car is tuned for regular, it's really a why bother for me. Ah, well, back to diesels, nothing much new.


"While putting the blame on Volkswagen, Bosch CEO Volkmar Denner defended diesels in a press briefing last week in Germany, according to Bloomberg.

He said diesels are "air cleaning machines," with emissions that are less dirty than the air they take in."

Supplier Bosch Defends Diesels, Blames VW, Investigates Internally (greencarreports.com)

VW diesel recall begins in Europe; US fix remains uncertain (autoweek.com)

gagrice

stever said:

Yeah, I can't remember the last time I got any (if ever).

If I ever used mid grade it was decades ago. Though I wonder if Costco premium is not closer to Midgrade? Seems to run fine in the wife's Lexus.

A bit off topic. The low priced oil is being touted as the biggest transfer of wealth in History. The thought occurred to me, if people would put the $2-$3 per gallon savings into the bank, it would be a sizable amount in a short time. At least a thousand a year for the average driver. Better yet pay off those CC debts that the banks are making a killing off of. Just my frugal CONSERVATIVE mind at work.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-02-01/bofa-the-oil-crash-is-kicking-off-one-of-the-largest-wealth-transfers-in-human-history?cmpid=yhoo.headline

stever

There's a joke here about why conservative minds are said to be joyless and full of spite. (It's because they hate spending money). Don't you want to die broke sliding into home with a banged up, used up body and mostly empty bank account a la Hunter S. Thompson?

Yeah, well, me neither.

ruking1

Yes, a good joke? (MB GLK 350/250 BT)

@ 22.2 mpg vs 36 mpg, the 15,000 commute, plus ancillary 3,000 miles yearly more = 811 gal vs 500 gal. @ current prices, that ='s $ 1,890 PUG -$945 ULSD= $945. SAVED!

fintail

The best retirement savings plan is the one where the check to the undertaker bounces

Got behind a diesel Econoline this morning, stinker - how these don't cause more PR damage than any cars, I don't know. The fumes would have made an out of tune diesel Rabbit blush.

stever said:

There's a joke here about why conservative minds are said to be joyless and full of spite. (It's because they hate spending money). Don't you want to die broke sliding into home with a banged up, used up body and mostly empty bank account a la Hunter S. Thompson?

Yeah, well, me neither.

houdini1

Jaguar has a new crossover coming about mid year. Called the F Pace. A couple of v6 options and a diesel. At least a hint that the diesel may be coming to U.S. The diesel would start around $41,000. but I am sure it would option up fast.

stever

Maybe it'll join this list:

9 All-Wheel-Drive Midsize and Large SUVs With Great Fuel Economy

ruking1

I wonder what mpg numbers I would post on the 2.1 L TT (2016 MB GLE 300d ) with the new 9 speed A/T, given 36 mpg with the current (2014 )7 speed A/T? Combined with (I have read) 200# weight loss, 40 mpg might be in reach?

gagrice

stever said:

There's a joke here about why conservative minds are said to be joyless and full of spite. (It's because they hate spending money). Don't you want to die broke sliding into home with a banged up, used up body and mostly empty bank account a la Hunter S. Thompson?

Yeah, well, me neither.

The joke is on the 100s of thousands of liberal homeless in our cities. I have always saved, now I don't have to and will probably leave a few bucks for my kids. I had to pay for both my mom and dad to be buried as they never were able to save. My step dad worked into his late 70s not able to retire. I am more than happy I did it the conservative way. My guess is about 99% of people in poverty are NOT conservatives.

ruking1

gagrice said:

stever said:

There's a joke here about why conservative minds are said to be joyless and full of spite. (It's because they hate spending money). Don't you want to die broke sliding into home with a banged up, used up body and mostly empty bank account a la Hunter S. Thompson?

Yeah, well, me neither.

The joke is on the 100s of thousands of liberal homeless in our cities. I have always saved, now I don't have to and will probably leave a few bucks for my kids. I had to pay for both my mom and dad to be buried as they never were able to save. My step dad worked into his late 70s not able to retire. I am more than happy I did it the conservative way. My guess is about 99% of people in poverty are NOT conservatives.

Yes!!! With the critical habit you described & have practiced for years & my post of $ 945 per year saved @ 20 per week & reinvested @ 5 % in a telco stock,in 30 years the diesel savings hit app $ 72,000 ! Anybody can google a compound interest table ! Talk about cheap calculators.

stever

gagrice said:

will probably leave a few bucks for my kids.

Why? You should blow some of it on that Oregon lakefront property.

Whatever you do, pick your bank carefully.

Diesel Scandal Also Raises Concerns for Volkswagen’s Bank (NY Times)

stevedebi

gagrice said:

stever said:

Yeah, I can't remember the last time I got any (if ever).

If I ever used mid grade it was decades ago. Though I wonder if Costco premium is not closer to Midgrade? Seems to run fine in the wife's Lexus.
...

When in New Mexico, I always use mid-grade, because the RUG is 86 octane.

fintail

If one wants to politicize poverty (maybe a grasp at straws as the so-called right is worse than ever this year?), They should study demographics first . Plenty of poverty for conservatives out there, just visit flyover country and especially the southeast, where in so many areas the way to really be free of poverty is to receive a farm or store from daddy. There's a huge difference between fiscal conservatism and political conservatism, too. The socio-economic chasm doesn't know many political bounds - the poorly thought out trade and fiscal decisions of the past 30 years don't care who they impact.

Saw a nice diesel today, an early 80s 300SD, well kept and tuned, not too loud, no smoke.

gagrice said:

The joke is on the 100s of thousands of liberal homeless in our cities. I have always saved, now I don't have to and will probably leave a few bucks for my kids. I had to pay for both my mom and dad to be buried as they never were able to save. My step dad worked into his late 70s not able to retire. I am more than happy I did it the conservative way. My guess is about 99% of people in poverty are NOT conservatives.

ruking1

fintail said:

If one wants to politicize poverty (maybe a grasp at straws as the so-called right is worse than ever this year?), They should study demographics first . Plenty of poverty for conservatives out there, just visit flyover country and especially the southeast, where in so many areas the way to really be free of poverty is to receive a farm or store from daddy. There's a huge difference between fiscal conservatism and political conservatism, too. The socio-economic chasm doesn't know many political bounds - the poorly thought out trade and fiscal decisions of the past 30 years don't care who they impact.

Saw a nice diesel today, an early 80s 300SD, well kept and tuned, not too loud, no smoke.

gagrice said:

The joke is on the 100s of thousands of liberal homeless in our cities. I have always saved, now I don't have to and will probably leave a few bucks for my kids. I had to pay for both my mom and dad to be buried as they never were able to save. My step dad worked into his late 70s not able to retire. I am more than happy I did it the conservative way. My guess is about 99% of people in poverty are NOT conservatives.

Well it's really quite a minority issue, ( less than 17%, which is wildly optimistic) as not too many stores & farms are inherited by the next generation from "daddy" Here is a Frenchmens' perspective. http://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2014/03/inequality

stever

stevedebi said:

When in New Mexico, I always use mid-grade, because the RUG is 86 octane.

I'm pretty sure we get 87 here in Southern NM. Not sure where the line flips to 86, probably Albuquerque which is about 1,000 to 1,500 feet higher than our ~4,000 feet.

stever

Back to topical news, "In a recent survey conducted by Autolist, it has been revealed that public trust in the automotive industry has dropped 12 percent as a result of Volkswagen admitting that it cheated on EPA diesel emissions tests. A total of 2,387 vehicle owners in the U.S. responded to the survey, which also found that the perception of German engineering quality has fallen 18 percent. In addition, the perception of Volkswagen vehicle quality has dropped a significant 27 percent."


Volkswagen Scandal Affecting Public Perception of Diesel, Whole Automotive Industry (autoguide.com)

Hey, it's polling season, what can I say?

ruking1

Remind me of a coarse saying ! Opinions are like a-------s, everybody has one!

fintail

Probably a lot higher in those "conservative" areas pined for by those who obtained their good fortune in more progressive zipcodes. Nice googled article though, it does hurt to think the self-made aren't always so self-made.

That survey is a funny thing. The same people who think a 10 year old MB costs 60K or that modern diesel cars smoke, no doubt. Might make some good year end diesel deals, right when my lease is up. Hmmm

ruking1 said:

Well it's really quite a minority issue, ( less than 17%, which is wildly optimistic) as not too many stores & farms are inherited by the next generation from "daddy" Here is a Frenchmens' perspective. http://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2014/03/inequality

gagrice

When in New Mexico, I always use mid-grade, because the RUG is 86 octane.

On my Sequoia and GM PU trucks I got better mileage with both Colorado and NM RUG. At least 10% better than CA gas. My only anecdotal evidence on Diesel is Mobil gets the worst mileage. Shell and 76 seem to be best.

stever

Well sure, you get better mpg here because everyone slows down to enjoy the scenery.

stever

"Europe’s auto industry is desperately trying to paint dieselgate as an isolated lapse of judgement by Volkswagen, while Volkswagen is desperately trying to paint dieselgate as the work of a “couple of engineers” lacking parental supervision. The transparent paint-job has received a huge crack today when Germany’s Daimler AG was found using the defeat device Daimler’s mustachioed CEO Dieter Zetsche has sworn not to exist."

Dieselgate Reaches Daimler: A Defeat Device By Another Name (Forbes - The link is worth a visit just for the photo - should remind you of "See how they run like pigs from a gun". )

In keeping with the Beetles, er, Beatles theme, it's Ruby Tuesday:

Volkswagen should submit today a fix for larger diesels (inautonews.com)

texases

I would think the fix for the 3.0 VW diesels would be pretty simple - wasn't their problem the computer reduced DEF usage off test to allow fillups every 10,000 miles, instead of every 5,000 miles that would be required to keep emissions within spec?

ruking1

Beyond folks that are affected, nobody cares ! http://www.inautonews.com/us-vw-to-expand-goodwill-package-for-larger-diesels

Again, like I said WAY earlier, closer to September when this "diesel gate" just broke out ; the auto industry in total wants to put a cap on it with diesels, because it can spread like wild fire to the gasser's side, as well ! Look how the ethanol debacle has been is & will continued to be totally, I mean totally downplayed! N0x goals are totally exceeded by just by gassers & NOTHING will put the genie back into the bottle! N0x is a TOTAL smoke screen!

Gas hybrid and EV are really no better ! It starts with rare earths METALS for EV in Afghanistan and why the war was actually fought!

stever

Things are looking up - the anti-ethanol candidate won in the Corn State. The algae bloom is off that rose too.

ruking1

stever said:

Things are looking up - the anti-ethanol candidate won in the Corn State. The algae bloom is off that rose too.

Yup! gasoline, diesel and the whole disposition of a barrel of oil falls under modern societies "negative" declaration mantel. We wouldn't have a "modern" society without the GOOD and the bad . Obviously we want to mitigate, to downgrade the BAD, as much as possible!

stever

Found this yesterday and thought of this discussion:

Imagine if gas cars were “new” tech… (evnut.com - pdf file)

Hey, you wanna be an early adopter of a car powered by a toxic, volatile, flammable, carcinogenic liquid fuel?

fintail

Fun read. Ah, Der Spiegel. I won't say more about that. Also, "Deutsche Umwelt Hilfe", yeah, there's an unbiased source, It's funny that greenies call others hypocritical as they often seem to live in large houses and drive multiple private vehicles themselves. And the author of the Forbes piece should be checked out too, interesting history when he was at TTAC.

If the test is designed to be measured at 22C, this isn't a defeat device. The maker readily admits the system works differently at cold ambient temps, and gives a reason for this. This has always been the case, and nobody had an issue - heck, it took months for the initial test to be discovered by the profiteers. But hey, whatever sells clicks and magazines.

More guilted bleeding heart greenies trying to save the world, just what we need. They've messed things up in Europe a lot already, what will they do next?

Won't matter here anyway, we don't get that engine - it's a non-Bluetec/urea system.

stever said:

"Europe’s auto industry is desperately trying to paint dieselgate as an isolated lapse of judgement by Volkswagen, while Volkswagen is desperately trying to paint dieselgate as the work of a “couple of engineers” lacking parental supervision. The transparent paint-job has received a huge crack today when Germany’s Daimler AG was found using the defeat device Daimler’s mustachioed CEO Dieter Zetsche has sworn not to exist."

Dieselgate Reaches Daimler: A Defeat Device By Another Name (Forbes - The link is worth a visit just for the photo - should remind you of "See how they run like pigs from a gun". )

In keeping with the Beetles, er, Beatles theme, it's Ruby Tuesday:

Volkswagen should submit today a fix for larger diesels (inautonews.com)

stever

fintail said:

If the test is designed to be measured at 22C, this isn't a defeat device. The maker readily admits the system works differently at cold ambient temps, and gives a reason for this.

That segues nicely with this blurb from FCA, via PRNewswire.com

"FCA acknowledges that public attention is shifting towards measuring emissions performances under conditions that more closely reflect real-world driving conditions, and is debating the choice of an alternative to NEDC.

As a voluntary measure, not mandated or requested by any regulatory authorities, FCA will be updating its Euro 6 calibrations with new data sets to improve emission performance in real driving conditions."

xwesx

fintail said:

If the test is designed to be measured at 22C, this isn't a defeat device. The maker readily admits the system works differently at cold ambient temps, and gives a reason for this. This has always been the case, and nobody had an issue - heck, it took months for the initial test to be discovered by the profiteers. But hey, whatever sells clicks and magazines.

Exactly. People seem to forget that the regs and tests for compliance were never aimed at "real world" conditions, yet now they want to test for compliance under these conditions, then proclaim a scandal when variances are found.

Give me a break!

xwesx

stever said:

As a voluntary measure, not mandated or requested by any regulatory authorities, FCA will be updating its Euro 6 calibrations with new data sets to improve emission performance in real driving conditions."

Good. Makes sense. But, they better apply the "real world" demands on all vehicles and not just one class or another, because it is guaranteed that none are consistent in their performance in the "real world," and all are sure to disappoint.

gagrice

stever said:

fintail said:

If the test is designed to be measured at 22C, this isn't a defeat device. The maker readily admits the system works differently at cold ambient temps, and gives a reason for this.

That segues nicely with this blurb from FCA, via PRNewswire.com

"FCA acknowledges that public attention is shifting towards measuring emissions performances under conditions that more closely reflect real-world driving conditions, and is debating the choice of an alternative to NEDC.

As a voluntary measure, not mandated or requested by any regulatory authorities, FCA will be updating its Euro 6 calibrations with new data sets to improve emission performance in real driving conditions."

My question would be, will the vehicles have to be tested on the road every two years to make sure they have stayed in compliance. With the widening mess in the industry, shouldn't all vehicles be tested on the road to see how they do? So far have any Gas vehicles been tested real World, warm weather and cold? I know my old Mazda had to be driven several miles before testing or it failed the smog test.

stevedebi

stever said:

Well sure, you get better mpg here because everyone slows down to enjoy the scenery.

I've gotten significantly better MPG on every car while in NM. Yes, it is Albuquerque, I have family there.

I think it relates to the altitude, something about the lower atmospheric pressure causes it (I think).

stever

Shoot, you're an easy two day drive from ABQ. Swing by and we'll have coffee. You can even give me a ride in your TDI.

texases

Whew! Barely survived! I was trapped in line behind a TDI at the DQ!