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The Body by Fisher sill plates were a bit of an eye-opener for me. I thought Buicks were sort of special when I was a kid, just under Caddys. Then I found out that similar sill plates were on Chevys.
Hmmm, the parts are the same, it's just the sheet metal and badging that are different? So why should someone pay more for a Buick than a Chevy?
For you to insinuate that the U.S. cannot compete is maddening and just wrong.
If I was saying that, certainly I would be wrong. So you need to read my post again - what I said was "parts of the US economy cannot compete". US does very well where it is competitive. The Japanese model has its own set of problems, and therefore Japan does not have a Google or Microsoft (areas where US is the most competitive country in the world). Also US consistently takes the top spot in coming up with new technologies and business models, and is a magnet for top talent from all over the world - something other countries have failed to do (perhaps due to their relatively "closed" nature).
But you seem to believe that the US should be number one in all respects. Which is not possible. Each country chooses a particular way to compete, and depending on what strategy it chooses, it succeeds in some areas, and fails in others. You don't hear the successful US manufacturers (some of them listed in another post - to that list I would also add names like Intel and Coca Cola) complain about the "uneven playing field" since they know that they can utilize that field to their benefit.
My point was, US cannot be No. 1 across the board simply because other countries have strengths which they have found out after they were forced to compete in the open market (in many cases, by the US). That resulted in a lot of initial pain at their end (Japan has lost all its textile, toy, light engineering, and agricultural industry in the last twenty years; Indian local soft drink industry has been run over by Coke and Pepsi), but now they cannot understand why US would insist on changing the rules of the game when such failure arrives at their shores.
PS : Toyota is having bigger layoffs in Japan - and not the US. Certainly they are not trying to give the local Japanese any preferential treatment.....
We have been ripped off by overpaid line works which gave the excuse for extremely overpaid managers and executives. This while providing antique overpriced cars. I say it would be the best thing for the US and the world to let these thieves slink into the night.
In addition, anyone who has tried to purchase a Luxury/Performance car recently knows that the dealers are ripping off the consumers more than they ever have. They pat themselves on the back for providing the least amount of community support possible with the profits they have TAKEN from the community. Mostly, it's playing Golf and having coctail parties for themselves.
KBB, Edmunds, no longer matter, because they are fair to the consumer. Auto dealers can't have that, so they have made up this "call around" system. What thieves!
I say let them get something more useful then they have provided us. A big refrigerator box for severance!
Bingo - it does sort of cheapen the brands. Why spend all that dough if the underpinnings are a Chevy or Camry?
All the GM brands I can sort of understand. They purchased some good brands as the industry consolidated. But then they wound up homogenizing them. Honda/Acura, VW/Porsche, Nissan/Infiniti - every time I see one of the premium brands, I have to wonder if there's really any special engineering or higher quality components to justify the premium cost or is it all just window dressing. Lattes in the service department don't excite me, although a loaner is nice.
And there underlies the argument for letting GM reorganize so they can dump brands and dealers instead of financing more of the same on taxpayer dollars.
All the GM brands I can sort of understand. They purchased some good brands as the industry consolidated. But then they wound up homogenizing them. Honda/Acura, VW/Porsche, Nissan/Infiniti - every time I see one of the premium brands, I have to wonder if there's really any special engineering or higher quality components to justify the premium cost or is it all just window dressing. Lattes in the service department don't excite me, although a loaner is nice.
It maybe changing with some of GM's latest offerings, but I think the German and Asian makes have done a better job of differentiating the product between premium and nonpremium brands. Drive a G35 and you now it's not a run of the mill Nissan. They may both have the corporate 3.5v6, but they tune them specifically for each line they are used in.
In my experience, when I'm in a VW it feels like an Audi. Where as, when I've been in a Buick it feels like a Chevy. Meaning that many of the switch gear and interior materials in the VW, wouldn't look out of place in a an Audi. The Buick's I've been in had switch gear that felt and looked to cheap to even be in a Cavalier. That's been the problem. Granted, GM's latest offerings have much, much better interior design and materials.
".....I have to wonder if there's really any special engineering or higher quality components to justify the premium cost or is it all just window dressing."
I believe there are. We have a 2004 Buick Ranier, and it is MUCH better, quieter and more luxurious than the Chevy or GMC. Buick adds it's "Quiet Tuning", which adds more insulation and has (extra???) laminated glass to give it a much quieter ride. Also, it is AWD as opposed to push button 4WD.
What I resent is how the Foreign companies seem to get a free pass in doing this, yet the Big 3 are called to task for it.
Ironically, I believe had Daimler Chrysler engaged in more of this, it would've been a much leaner company and there would be no reason for the Germans to dump Chrysler. Instead, they chose to treat Chrysler as a red headded stepchild, and it cost them large sums of money (not enough in my mind). Unfortunately, it will probably cost Chrysler it's life.
What I resent is how the Foreign companies seem to get a free pass in doing this, yet the Big 3 are called to task for it.
Continuing in this vein, this commentator at the Washington Post says that the Big 3's problem is that can't "gain access quickly to cutting-edge components developed throughout the group -- and find new ways to integrate them into new product." And then he says that Lexus stuff trickles down to the Camry.
But did Lexus stuff migrate down or did Toyota just add extra Dynamat and heavier glass to the Lexus and get a free pass for doing so?
Now the TV Networks are saying they need to be bailed out. They have been losing advertising over the last two decades. Now as Automakers cut back on Advertising it will be devastating to them as well. I cannot think of a better thing to happen in this country than for TV stations to go broke and quit broadcasting. There is NOTHING on TV worth the electricity to watch it. 2009 may be a banner year yet. Get rid of junky automakers and network TV.
Because I sold my GM at $27 and I bought Citi Group when I thought it had bottomed out. I was going to buy more at under $4. Probably too late.
There is a BIG difference between keeping the money sound and subsidizing automakers that are not going to be profitable. Giving a loan is bad enough. We are talking a gift to GM. That is anti business. Why not every other automaker building cars in the USA. If we subsidize GM we should subsidize Toyota as well. They are both multi national corporations. How do we know that GM has not siphoned off billions here to build up their China operations? Then tell the public we are hurting and it is all because we were stupid and promised our UAW employees the moon.
From the looks of this photo essay, it looks as though Detroit is just about to become one big park. Best to bulldoze all the buildings and get a grant from the National Park Service. Give it back to the pigeons and coyotes.
Detroit is far greener than most major cities, as seen in the runaway vines swarming old mansions in Brush Park, trees sprouting from the rooftops of skyscrapers, tallgrass fields encircling the lone house still standing on a residential block, and abandoned homes swallowed by shrubs thriving unchecked.
Whole neighorhood blocks cleared of houses by arson and bulldozers have reverted to urban prairies, visible in satellite photos as unusually large green patches in the middle of the inner city. Sidewalks vanish beneath creeping grasses, while aluminum fences between homes become entwined with the branches of dozens of saplings growing as high as the droopy utility wires.
Alleys in parts of the city start resembling hiking trails as growth from the yards on both sides narrows their width. All around town, even smaller empty lots become thick, grassy fields, because the City doesn’t often mow in easements and right-of-way areas, allowing weeds to grow 3 feet high.
Throughout Detroit, as half the population fled in the last half-century outward towards the suburbs and later towards more rural areas, the city itself has, ironically, become more rural, with wild animals and lush green plants coexisting with an industrial, modern metropolis.
"But did Lexus stuff migrate down or did Toyota just add extra Dynamat and heavier glass to the Lexus and get a free pass for doing so? "
The Lexus stuff was always in Toyota. They started "decontenting" (another word for cheapening), Toyota and made us believe Lexus was higher quality. Look back at the Toyota Cressida, that was the precursor of Lexus imho.
Can you say garbage TV? Too much violence and too many stupid reality TV shows and infomercials. As for the news media, how many stations do we need repeating the same news at the same time? Maybe the market can no longer sustain so many TV networks and local stations. Yes.... lets blame that on GM and the banking industry too.
Did you read the second article linked at the bottom of the first?
I went to the Michigan State Fair long ago while visiting in Detroit while working in Michigan. A grad school acquaintance worked for Ford during the summer and he showed me around the town.
It's amazing what incompetent management and city leaders can do for a town while expecting handouts from others and giving themselves the benefits through the decades. The recent mayor got caught. Who's the mayor now? Do they have city leaders willing to make residents behave? Or is it more of the same lifestyle?
1) Because Citi has about 3,000 Billion $ in assets and liabilities; that would be very bad for trillions of other $ of investments if they fail. Citi's commitments are far beyond the entire wealth of EVERY auto maker put together.
2) Citi typically makes money each year, whereas the Big3 typically don't; and with the Big3's market share continuing to decline each year, it is unlikely they will ever make $ again - even with a bailout. Citi will make $ to repay the loan, the Big3 have a snowball in hell's chance.
And they are highly over leveraged. Just like the over leveraging of mortgage packages, borrowing against them multiply times their pittance of value, Citi is probably all paper, just like the oil price boom was which the government DIDN'T control.
I'm in favor of keeping jobs rather than helping Citi avoid being exposed as a fraudulent paper factory. The problem is the congress and others were instrumental in helping set up this paper factory economy, and they are happy to use our money to help cover the paper so that eventually congress and friends won't be exposed as the culprits of the worthless paper mill leading to the depression.
Uh, the buggy whip manufacturers are still with us. They've been faithfully serving the BDSM community for over 100 years with their classic whips and diversification into leather and rubber apparel.
just like the monty python joke-my dog has no nose. How does he smell. Awful.
Old accounting joke: Three accounting applicants interviewing for a position. First applicant is asked how much is one plus one? The response is two. Next applicant please. The next applicant is asked how much is one plus one? The response is two. Next applicant please. The last applicant is asked how much is one plus one. The response is how much do you want it to be. You're hired.
Citi is probably all paper, just like the oil price boom was which the government DIDN'T control.
I do agree with you that DC and Wall Street have stuck it to everyone. However we can't change the past. I do see where the government needs to fix some of the problems they created (analogy might be a DUI driver stopping to help the person they just ran off the road).
Well I think the problem is that just like your house could be $300K, or if no one wants it - purely psychological - they may value it at $150K at auction. Well this is the problem with banks, meaning that the value of what Citi is holding is in question.
I believe what the government is trying to do in the financial sector is to firm up that Citi's assets are worth $3T, or close to it. For if Citi's assets collapse in value, then every similar type of asset also goes down. It's a domino effect on the value of EVERYTHING, everywhere. That was the same reasoning with AIG.
A manufacturer of autos however does not drag down the value of everything. If automaker A goes out of business Automakers B, C, and D can hire and produce more. There is no net loss. 12M autos will be built and sold whether it is A,B,C,D, and E selling them or just B,C,D,E, and a new F (using some of A's people and equipment).
There is plenty of excess capacity in Ford, Chrysler, and all the import factories to makeup for any closure of GM. The auto suppliers also are slow and could easily produce more parts for the remaining companies.
Is PBS that bad. We don't watch american idol or the like. Noticed a list of vehicles that you've gone through. 1999 Ranger, any chance it's the top of the line version FX4. Some got out of the market too earlier and some couldn't be convinced to get out after the peak started down. Most people knew 14K+ was pumped. Happened to chance upon a coin/metals store recently. People buying bags of silver coins and a gold coin is hard to come buy. But like the owner said, people can't even make change and you expect to barter gold (of what value relative to what) for goods that who has? Started to think of all those home safes bolted down with bags of coins. Then there is the CN fund that holds ninety percent bullion. Maybe the amero will be bypassed for that little chip.
I hope the Big 3's plans that they are going to present to Congress, don't include the unrealistic forecast that auto sales are going to pickup anytime soon.
I don't think so. It is a Flex Fuel V6. Of course E85 in CA is nearly non existent. Gold coins in the safety box at the bank is a good hedge. If they were bought when gold bottomed out around $275. I would not buy now for sure. You always take a hit on the selling end of precious metals.
SNL's skit Saturday night showing the big 3 CEO's is exactly what they are fighting. While I got a good chuckle, they presented domestic cars as still having the reliability/quality of a '74 Vega.
I find it interesting the UAW supports the Dems and hope they will bail out Detroit. Among my friends, all of the liberals despise domestic cars and none drive them. Not all, but the vast majority of my conservative friends drive domestics. Hmm. Don't know how this plays out with the rest of the country, but it's how I see it from my perspective.
had 1 subaru, 2 toyotas, 2 nissans, 3 fords, 1 chevy, 3 chryslers (burned each time), probably some forgotten about, and used buick and used cadillac. Now have a malibu and an H3, looking to replace the malibu (only because of a tired back and it has not been trouble free but still darn nice for a first year build) with what should be a give away price half ton american truck, but because of limited garage space, bouncing between another H3, ford?, or a JK unlimited even with its known problems and JustEmptyEveryPocket history.
I think that it's mainly related to saving fuel and being a conscientious consumer as opposed to being somewhat more profligate. Based on your observations I wonder how that bodes for the D3 when they begin to bring out more fuel efficient vehicles over the next two years.
Will those currently driving SUV monsters and laughing at the greenie movement suddenly find religion in the Volt and Fusion hybrids? Will more of your liberal friends find the domestics attractive now? Or will your conservative friends park their SUVs to support the new fuel-saving greenie technology from our American industry despite their normal resistance to agreeing with anything the liberal left holds dear?
Good questions for which I don't have an answer. The D3 have got to find away to convince the Toy/Honda crowd that their cars won't self destruct in short order.
My Honda and Toyota friends all make fun of my dometics. I get the "has it left you stranded yet" or "is it falling apart" question all of the time. One of my best friends put a large piece of cardboard on his driveway for me to park on. When I pulled up he (joking around) told me to park on it because he didn't want my POS Ford leaking on his driveway. He drives a Toyota and his wife a Honda. I got a good laugh and responded with the one finger salute and proceeded to drink all of his beer.
"People put themselves into vehicles that they can't keep up with," he says. "They really are selling the American dream at the dealership. The car is a very visible demonstration of how well you're doing in the world of who you are."
Or who you'd like to be, he added.
Easy credit, Reed says, lured many buyers to buy more car than they could afford, thinking they'd stretch to make it work and eventually their pay would go up. Instead, Reed says high gas prices earlier this year strained many car owners. In addition, increasing unemployment also is taking a toll.
This is a point that everyone has overlooked. the domestics have up the ante on the use of rebates and financing to artificially raise the number of sales. yes, I know the foreign companies do it as well but the domestics use more incentives per sale. Rebates kill your resale value. Also "discounting" the price of the car feeds the perception that your car is not as good as those who do not have "discounts".
Now re-possession are up and these are more people who won't be able to finance a new car for a while.
pfft! I am squarely setting my sights on this little Italian/French squirtplug called the 2010 Pininfarina-Bollore B-Zero.
This car is an all-electric car with batteries built by Bollore of France. They have worked on them for 15 years.
At the heart of any electric car, lies the battery. Bolloré is a highly diversified group of companies with a combined yearly turnover of 10 billion US dollars and 35,000 employees. For the past 30 years, the group has been the world’s leading producer of components for capacitors. Thanks to its acquired know-how in extruded polymers and the storage of electrical energy, Bolloré has been working for 15 years through its subsidiary, Batscap, to develop a solid-state lithium polymer battery. This battery is able to store, weight-for-weight, and it can be recharged in just a few hours. The battery does not require any maintenance and has a lifespan of around 200,000 km (125,000 miles). Another key benefit is its unmatched safety while in operation. Added to that, the B0 electric car does not emit any exhaust gases, nor any fine particles. The car’s LMP batteries thus help combat air pollution. The batteries of the B0 also contribute to reducing noise, another nuisance which affects people’s quality of life in urban environments.
Supercapacitors: boosting acceleration and recycling power
Supercapacitors are sophisticated energy storage components developed by the Bolloré Group. In an electric car, supercapacitors draw and store energy generated while the car is braking and feed it back into the system when the car moves off again. The result is greater acceleration, increased range and a longer lifespan for the car’s battery. The electric cars powered by BatScap’s LMP batteries and supercapacitors have a range of over 250 km. They are fast (with a top speed of 130 km/h), pleasant to drive, safe, and long-lasting.
Here's one that fires up my boilers here in sunny Arizona!
Natural energy from solar panels
Because it is 100% electric powered, the B0 does not generate any pollution. But the process of generating the electricity which the car uses must also, as far as possible, not have produced any atmospheric pollution. That is why the creators of the B0 have designed it to incorporate every possible solution designed to optimise the car’s energy efficiency and use of clean energy sources. For instance, the B0 electric car is fitted with supercapacitors, which enable it to store and recycle the energy that is generated while braking. Similarly, the car’s roof and part of its hood are covered with highperformance solar panels which help power some of its equipment. It goes without saying that a responsible environmental approach must be coherent throughout. Which is why all the materials used to build the car’s body, battery and interior trim have been carefully selected for their low environmental impact. All are recyclable or reusable. The Bolloré Group is also in the process of developing straight-forward panels of photovoltaic cells which might be installed by individuals or in public places to fully or partly recharge the B0 electric car’s batteries using solar energy.
The 2010 Pininfarina-Bollore B-Zero only takes 5 hours to re-charge!
Pininfarina-Bollore are proposing to send the Los Angeles market some early B0's in 2009, along with two more U.S. market areas. Only 2,000 cars are even set to be imported in 2010, so the amount in 2009 will surely not be very many, either. I'd guess 200 cars to each of the 3 U.S. market areas, but realize that is just a guess.
The rest of America wil get these truly smart automobiles in September of 2010. And a recent clarification occurred on the internet where it was confirmed that Bollore will not rent out the battery pack separately, while the owner bought the rest of the car. It will be sold as one package, which makes more sense to me.
Early testing on the LeBlue cars(made by the same two companies in partnership)has been wonderful. The LeBlue's have gone 125,000 kilometres without any trouble and without any maintenance. Bollore is saying that the batteries will last 125,000 miles. Warranty and pricing are not yet announced(and believe me I've tried to find out both) but there have been internet rumours of pricing at around $27,000, converting over from the Euro in one of Pininfarina-Bollore's press releases from the fall of '08. This price should be knocked down by $7,500 with the Barack Obama rebate, which he has promised for cars built like this to serve the auto-buying public like this. It's sort of a Green Ford for da masses.
This is a point that everyone has overlooked. the domestics have up the ante on the use of rebates and financing to artificially raise the number of sales.
They do that so that on popular models, or during extremely good economic times they can make the most profit. But on the other end the high MSRP can be a turnoff for the reasons you mentioned, or the number just looks daunting. Who wants to buy an Impala with a $23K+ options sticker, when a 2 year old one is listed for $10K.
GM wanted to stick with 1 price - the MSRP on Saturn; and they blew this by trying to price in too much profit. The Saturns looked expensive compared to the discounted prices on other brands. Now they offer rebates and special financing on Saturns. I think GM should have kept MSRP, but took the rebates off the MSRP and sold it for that. They would have had a significant MSRP advantage this way for their advertising to take advantage of.
Sorry I posted again and missed your response. Ford was dropping the Ranger after doing nothing for it (rumors of the F-100 old name coming back) and ford reconsidered from what I was told. A ford service advisor, used to race cheap to rebuild chevies, tried a ranger for a short time and said too small bumped head on headliner. I considered (considering) the FX4 as an alternative to the h3 and jk. And saw that since you've been through a few vehicles that is must work for you to still own one. Knew people who made a killing when gold was first out of the bag decades ago and hit a ceiling. Chatter said gold should hit 600-650 for a bottom but believed the 714 it recently hit was a new bottom. No safe deposit vault - no protection no insurance - guess the reason for a safe at home by those buying metals. Just surprised by the amount of activity at that store. And it is true the old buy/sell, but that is how the broker lives.
The Lexus stuff was always in Toyota. They started "decontenting" (another word for cheapening), Toyota and made us believe Lexus was higher quality. Look back at the Toyota Cressida, that was the precursor of Lexus imho.
As a former owner of a Cressida and current owner of a Lexus - I have to disagree - My Cressida, though reliable in general (Air Conditioning was problematic) was noisy, rattly, and reminded me a lot of a Ford Fairmont in the way it drove. In fact, it was no better than the Fairmont my wife drove at the same time. The Toyota was a bit more dependable, but certainly lacked any more refinement. Both had inline 6 cylinder engines and RWD. Both had a host of rattles and squeaks, and both drove rather erratically. The Ford had a better Air Conditioner, which never needed service, while the Toyota A/C gave me multiple issues and never was right. The Ford had other weaknesses, but both were amazingly comparable IMO. My Lexus (both of them) have been extraordinary vehicles in most every way. The seats could be more comfortable, but there are few squeaks and rattles, they are drop dead dependable, smooth beyond description, and intelligent in the extreme. About the only High Tech device on my Cressida was an equalizer on the Radio, which frankly did little to improve its performance....
IOW, the Lexus is a way better car than the already very good Toyota.....even today.
As to the question of the topic; I feel a bailout of the Auto Industry in this country is nothing more or less than a bailout of the UAW - and I do not favor that. I think the only way for Ford & GM to survive is to go into Chapter 11, and dismiss the union and dealer contracts, and totally restructure the companies, in a much leaner and more efficient manner, pay the workers what Toyota and Honda and Subaru pay, and invite the workers back. But the legacy costs, the union contracts that require that a plant produce, or the workers be paid not to produce, and generally paying the "employee bank" to show up and play cards all day MUST go if the companies are going to survive. The build good cars already. They could afford to built just as good a car as Toyota does, IF they didn't have to roll in these extra expenses to each car, making them non-competitive. At least that's the way I see it.
By the way, my bank has not needed, nor have we accepted any bailout funds from the government.
Quite a good article Lemko. It almost looked like an "onion" article. I particularly was amused with this, concerning the idea of the Big3 execs driving to DC :
"The proper people are talking to the proper people, and things are getting put together," said Leuliette. "This really picked up momentum over the weekend."
This makes it sound like they are spending time working on Style, rather than Substance. LOL - it also makes it sound that getting from 1 city to another is something that requires teams of people working many days to figure out for these guys.
I'm sure Wagoner and his subordinates are right now debating what vehicle to take, and what color; rather than trying to figure what divisions and models must go, and how to get their legacy and current costs down.
Aint this the truth (from the article you linked): Alabama Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Ala., told ABC that automakers could end up seeking far more than $25 billion, saying they could "take several hundred billion and they still might not survive."
And IMO Mitt Romney is right on point here too: "a managed bankruptcy may be the only path to the fundamental restructuring the industry needs."
If Congress gave automakers a quick bailout, Romney wrote "automakers will stay the course -- the suicidal course of declining market shares, insurmountable labor and retiree burdens, technology atrophy, product inferiority and never-ending job losses. Detroit needs a turnaround, not a check."
As for the whole fuss being made about the execs flying in on corporate jets, I don't think it matters all that much. Yes, symbolism is important but in this case ACTION is a lot more important. The meat of the domestics' turnaround will come in reducing executive compensation by about 90%, finding some leaders for these companies that can actually do the job, and breaking these outrageous UAW contracts. If they keep a private jet or two, it is such a minor part of what is going on, I would ignore it personally.
This made me chuckle though: On Friday, GM said it had already returned two of its seven leased jets and would get rid of two more. Ford Motor Co. also said it was considering slimming down its corporate jet fleet.
THAT they will do, but when it comes to taking care of the issues I named above? That they won't do in any effective manner. :sick:
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The sad part is a couple idiot Congressmen had to point out the facts to these losers. It does not take a college degree to know you don't go to borrow money in a vehicle that is higher on the food chain than the party you are borrowing from. Our family comes looking for a handout they drive one of their old beaters hitting on half the cylinders and belching smoke. Then I feel sorry for them and thankful for what I have.
After they file for bankruptcy and have a good reorganization plan in place with low paid executives, maybe a loan would be appropriate. Iococca only took a buck a year till they were making money again.
I hope everyone realizes how unbelievably disconnected these managements are. If you were head of a company that produce products for TRANSPORTATION and you had the utmost belief that your products were great and were asking for funds for SURVIVAL, it would have been perfect to arrive into D.C. last time around in one of your products instead of more expensive options.
Ya THINK??????
Un-freakin'-believable! Now we must give them cash?? They need Rotp-Rooter on the brain if you ask me!
So, again, I ask: You think this will be the last time they ask for cash even if they get it this time? Come on, Really??
After they file for bankruptcy and have a good reorganization plan in place with low paid executives, maybe a loan would be appropriate. Iaccoca only took a buck a year till they were making money again.
If this isn't demanded from Congress or no deal, I will lead a march on Washington the likes Obama has not even thought could be possible!
These guys need religion!! No more Mr. Nice Guy!!!
You are right about the Jets. They cost about a million a year to have and use. According to a friend with a Cessna Citation. That includes pilot and copilot expense. Not much of that loss can be attributed to the corporate jets.
May I respectfully recommend the Tomb of the Unknown Soldiers and the changing of the guard. I also recommend Lincoln Memorial. Union Terminal is interesting for people watching.
I was there 4 years ago to attend the belated funeral of my Uncle, who's remains were identified from 49 years ago (where he served in the USAF) in the Philippines in dense jungle. It took 2 years for the Gov't to set up the return of him and the other members of his plane and another discovered in the same area.
Arlington is quite a humbling experience especially in a full burial ceremony. I will never forget it and the sacrifice that is beckoning to you even today. I salute all of these souls and their families.
I really appreciated the Lincoln Memorial and the WWII Memorial.
Hopefully, the Big 3 CEO's will take a swing past Arlington National to give them a clearer baseline from which to lead the necessary change and forget their huge compensation and EGO.
I live 100 miles to the SE and find the same perspective applies here. The short list of my dislikes of Bush has grown over the bailouts. Another $350 Billion for citigroup? but nothing for GM? I think Japan owns a good chunk of Citi.
Sorry, these guys did it to themselves. If we individual taxpayers were in need of a bailout because we couldn't pay our bills, you think the feds would bail each of US out? Don't think so . . . :sick: Originally I was for a bailout because I thought it would save jobs, but let's face facts, the Detroit 3 were going to cut a good portion of those jobs anyways! Let them get themselves out of trouble . . . if they can.
Hopefully, the Big 3 CEO's will take a swing past Arlington National to give them a clearer baseline from which to lead the necessary change and forget their huge compensation and EGO.
We can only HOPE they take a cut. Or maybe they should just commit hari-kari!
BTW, I wonder if the B3 CEOs watched the SNL skit (surely they did). That had to sting . . . or perhaps not. :sick:
But on the other end the high MSRP can be a turnoff for the reasons you mentioned, or the number just looks daunting. Who wants to buy an Impala with a $23K+ options sticker, when a 2 year old one is listed for $10K.
2 yr old for $10k is BS. With 100k miles on it....maybe. Even the Accord loses over $4k in depreciation in year 1. I could have had an Impala for a price that would have virtually made depreciation a non-factor. Nobody pays MSRP, that's just the number that would give GM a viable business plan
2 yr old for $10k is BS. With 100k miles on it....maybe
I just did the quick appraise on a two year old Impala LT with 30,000 miles. I included the normal kind of stuff. It came back at a little over $9900 trade-in. Rocky just posted his brother buying a $23k Impala for $17,700. That does not bode well for trade-in two years from now.
My own sad GMC story: Bought a 2005 GMC hybrid PU in June of 2005 when the family discounts were offered. This truck had lots of nice stuff. MSRP was $36k. I got it after a real haggle for $26k plus TTL. One and a half years later I decided I wanted an SUV and drove the 2007 Denali Yukon. I cannot remember the exact figures. It was over $40k. My PU was perfect and I had added an aluminum roll-top over he bed for $1300. This was the same dealer I bought the truck from. It had 13k highway miles and he offered me $16k in trade. I stood up and told him that was an insult to my intelligence and walked out. I listed it on Craigslist and a fellow from LA came down and gave me $23k cash for the truck. That kind of loss on a PU truck is horrible, and the worst I have ever had. The truck was not as solid as my 1998 Suburban. I did like the Stereo and climate control. That will probably be my last GM vehicle.
Comments
Hmmm, the parts are the same, it's just the sheet metal and badging that are different? So why should someone pay more for a Buick than a Chevy?
If I was saying that, certainly I would be wrong. So you need to read my post again - what I said was "parts of the US economy cannot compete". US does very well where it is competitive. The Japanese model has its own set of problems, and therefore Japan does not have a Google or Microsoft (areas where US is the most competitive country in the world). Also US consistently takes the top spot in coming up with new technologies and business models, and is a magnet for top talent from all over the world - something other countries have failed to do (perhaps due to their relatively "closed" nature).
But you seem to believe that the US should be number one in all respects. Which is not possible. Each country chooses a particular way to compete, and depending on what strategy it chooses, it succeeds in some areas, and fails in others. You don't hear the successful US manufacturers (some of them listed in another post - to that list I would also add names like Intel and Coca Cola) complain about the "uneven playing field" since they know that they can utilize that field to their benefit.
My point was, US cannot be No. 1 across the board simply because other countries have strengths which they have found out after they were forced to compete in the open market (in many cases, by the US). That resulted in a lot of initial pain at their end (Japan has lost all its textile, toy, light engineering, and agricultural industry in the last twenty years; Indian local soft drink industry has been run over by Coke and Pepsi), but now they cannot understand why US would insist on changing the rules of the game when such failure arrives at their shores.
PS : Toyota is having bigger layoffs in Japan - and not the US. Certainly they are not trying to give the local Japanese any preferential treatment.....
In addition, anyone who has tried to purchase a Luxury/Performance car recently knows that the dealers are ripping off the consumers more than they ever have. They pat themselves on the back for providing the least amount of community support possible with the profits they have TAKEN from the community. Mostly, it's playing Golf and having coctail parties for themselves.
KBB, Edmunds, no longer matter, because they are fair to the consumer. Auto dealers can't have that, so they have made up this "call around" system. What thieves!
I say let them get something more useful then they have provided us. A big refrigerator box for severance!
I was wondering the same thing about a Camry and an ES.
All the GM brands I can sort of understand. They purchased some good brands as the industry consolidated. But then they wound up homogenizing them. Honda/Acura, VW/Porsche, Nissan/Infiniti - every time I see one of the premium brands, I have to wonder if there's really any special engineering or higher quality components to justify the premium cost or is it all just window dressing. Lattes in the service department don't excite me, although a loaner is nice.
And there underlies the argument for letting GM reorganize so they can dump brands and dealers instead of financing more of the same on taxpayer dollars.
It maybe changing with some of GM's latest offerings, but I think the German and Asian makes have done a better job of differentiating the product between premium and nonpremium brands. Drive a G35 and you now it's not a run of the mill Nissan. They may both have the corporate 3.5v6, but they tune them specifically for each line they are used in.
In my experience, when I'm in a VW it feels like an Audi. Where as, when I've been in a Buick it feels like a Chevy. Meaning that many of the switch gear and interior materials in the VW, wouldn't look out of place in a an Audi. The Buick's I've been in had switch gear that felt and looked to cheap to even be in a Cavalier. That's been the problem. Granted, GM's latest offerings have much, much better interior design and materials.
I believe there are. We have a 2004 Buick Ranier, and it is MUCH better, quieter and more luxurious than the Chevy or GMC. Buick adds it's "Quiet Tuning", which adds more insulation and has (extra???) laminated glass to give it a much quieter ride. Also, it is AWD as opposed to push button 4WD.
What I resent is how the Foreign companies seem to get a free pass in doing this, yet the Big 3 are called to task for it.
Ironically, I believe had Daimler Chrysler engaged in more of this, it would've been a much leaner company and there would be no reason for the Germans to dump Chrysler. Instead, they chose to treat Chrysler as a red headded stepchild, and it cost them large sums of money (not enough in my mind). Unfortunately, it will probably cost Chrysler it's life.
Continuing in this vein, this commentator at the Washington Post says that the Big 3's problem is that can't "gain access quickly to cutting-edge components developed throughout the group -- and find new ways to integrate them into new product." And then he says that Lexus stuff trickles down to the Camry.
But did Lexus stuff migrate down or did Toyota just add extra Dynamat and heavier glass to the Lexus and get a free pass for doing so?
Now CITI gets bailed out - why not Detroit?
http://www.variety.com/VR1117996347.html
Because I sold my GM at $27 and I bought Citi Group when I thought it had bottomed out. I was going to buy more at under $4. Probably too late.
There is a BIG difference between keeping the money sound and subsidizing automakers that are not going to be profitable. Giving a loan is bad enough. We are talking a gift to GM. That is anti business. Why not every other automaker building cars in the USA. If we subsidize GM we should subsidize Toyota as well. They are both multi national corporations. How do we know that GM has not siphoned off billions here to build up their China operations? Then tell the public we are hurting and it is all because we were stupid and promised our UAW employees the moon.
Detroit is far greener than most major cities, as seen in the runaway vines swarming old mansions in Brush Park, trees sprouting from the rooftops of skyscrapers, tallgrass fields encircling the lone house still standing on a residential block, and abandoned homes swallowed by shrubs thriving unchecked.
Whole neighorhood blocks cleared of houses by arson and bulldozers have reverted to urban prairies, visible in satellite photos as unusually large green patches in the middle of the inner city. Sidewalks vanish beneath creeping grasses, while aluminum fences between homes become entwined with the branches of dozens of saplings growing as high as the droopy utility wires.
Alleys in parts of the city start resembling hiking trails as growth from the yards on both sides narrows their width. All around town, even smaller empty lots become thick, grassy fields, because the City doesn’t often mow in easements and right-of-way areas, allowing weeds to grow 3 feet high.
Throughout Detroit, as half the population fled in the last half-century outward towards the suburbs and later towards more rural areas, the city itself has, ironically, become more rural, with wild animals and lush green plants coexisting with an industrial, modern metropolis.
http://www.detroitblog.org/?p=287
The Lexus stuff was always in Toyota. They started "decontenting" (another word for cheapening), Toyota and made us believe Lexus was higher quality. Look back at the Toyota Cressida, that was the precursor of Lexus imho.
Too much violence and too many stupid reality TV shows and infomercials.
As for the news media, how many stations do we need repeating the same news at the same time? Maybe the market can no longer sustain so many TV networks and local stations. Yes.... lets blame that on GM and the banking industry too.
I went to the Michigan State Fair long ago while visiting in Detroit while working in Michigan. A grad school acquaintance worked for Ford during the summer and he showed me around the town.
It's amazing what incompetent management and city leaders can do for a town while expecting handouts from others and giving themselves the benefits through the decades. The recent mayor got caught. Who's the mayor now? Do they have city leaders willing to make residents behave? Or is it more of the same lifestyle?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
1) Because Citi has about 3,000 Billion $ in assets and liabilities; that would be very bad for trillions of other $ of investments if they fail. Citi's commitments are far beyond the entire wealth of EVERY auto maker put together.
2) Citi typically makes money each year, whereas the Big3 typically don't; and with the Big3's market share continuing to decline each year, it is unlikely they will ever make $ again - even with a bailout. Citi will make $ to repay the loan, the Big3 have a snowball in hell's chance.
And they are highly over leveraged. Just like the over leveraging of mortgage packages, borrowing against them multiply times their pittance of value, Citi is probably all paper, just like the oil price boom was which the government DIDN'T control.
I'm in favor of keeping jobs rather than helping Citi avoid being exposed as a fraudulent paper factory. The problem is the congress and others were instrumental in helping set up this paper factory economy, and they are happy to use our money to help cover the paper so that eventually congress and friends won't be exposed as the culprits of the worthless paper mill leading to the depression.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Alternative Worse
And how would you know that?
Old accounting joke: Three accounting applicants interviewing for a position. First applicant is asked how much is one plus one? The response is two. Next applicant please. The next applicant is asked how much is one plus one? The response is two. Next applicant please. The last applicant is asked how much is one plus one. The response is how much do you want it to be. You're hired.
I do agree with you that DC and Wall Street have stuck it to everyone. However we can't change the past. I do see where the government needs to fix some of the problems they created (analogy might be a DUI driver stopping to help the person they just ran off the road).
Well I think the problem is that just like your house could be $300K, or if no one wants it - purely psychological - they may value it at $150K at auction. Well this is the problem with banks, meaning that the value of what Citi is holding is in question.
I believe what the government is trying to do in the financial sector is to firm up that Citi's assets are worth $3T, or close to it. For if Citi's assets collapse in value, then every similar type of asset also goes down. It's a domino effect on the value of EVERYTHING, everywhere. That was the same reasoning with AIG.
A manufacturer of autos however does not drag down the value of everything. If automaker A goes out of business Automakers B, C, and D can hire and produce more. There is no net loss. 12M autos will be built and sold whether it is A,B,C,D, and E selling them or just B,C,D,E, and a new F (using some of A's people and equipment).
There is plenty of excess capacity in Ford, Chrysler, and all the import factories to makeup for any closure of GM. The auto suppliers also are slow and could easily produce more parts for the remaining companies.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2008-11-23-cars-trucks-delinquent-loans_N.ht- m
I don't think so. It is a Flex Fuel V6. Of course E85 in CA is nearly non existent. Gold coins in the safety box at the bank is a good hedge. If they were bought when gold bottomed out around $275. I would not buy now for sure. You always take a hit on the selling end of precious metals.
I find it interesting the UAW supports the Dems and hope they will bail out Detroit. Among my friends, all of the liberals despise domestic cars and none drive them. Not all, but the vast majority of my conservative friends drive domestics. Hmm. Don't know how this plays out with the rest of the country, but it's how I see it from my perspective.
Will those currently driving SUV monsters and laughing at the greenie movement suddenly find religion in the Volt and Fusion hybrids? Will more of your liberal friends find the domestics attractive now? Or will your conservative friends park their SUVs to support the new fuel-saving greenie technology from our American industry despite their normal resistance to agreeing with anything the liberal left holds dear?
Ahhhh difficult choices...
My Honda and Toyota friends all make fun of my dometics. I get the "has it left you stranded yet" or "is it falling apart" question all of the time. One of my best friends put a large piece of cardboard on his driveway for me to park on. When I pulled up he (joking around) told me to park on it because he didn't want my POS Ford leaking on his driveway. He drives a Toyota and his wife a Honda. I got a good laugh and responded with the one finger salute and proceeded to drink all of his beer.
Or who you'd like to be, he added.
Easy credit, Reed says, lured many buyers to buy more car than they could afford, thinking they'd stretch to make it work and eventually their pay would go up. Instead, Reed says high gas prices earlier this year strained many car owners. In addition, increasing unemployment also is taking a toll.
This is a point that everyone has overlooked. the domestics have up the ante on the use of rebates and financing to artificially raise the number of sales. yes, I know the foreign companies do it as well but the domestics use more incentives per sale. Rebates kill your resale value. Also "discounting" the price of the car feeds the perception that your car is not as good as those who do not have "discounts".
Now re-possession are up and these are more people who won't be able to finance a new car for a while.
This car is an all-electric car with batteries built by Bollore of France. They have worked on them for 15 years.
At the heart of any electric car, lies the battery. Bolloré is a highly diversified group of companies with a combined yearly turnover of 10 billion US dollars and 35,000 employees. For the past 30 years, the group has been the world’s leading producer of components for capacitors. Thanks to its acquired know-how in extruded polymers and the storage of electrical energy, Bolloré has been working for 15 years through its subsidiary, Batscap, to develop a solid-state lithium polymer battery. This battery is able to store, weight-for-weight, and it can be recharged in just a few hours. The battery does not require any maintenance and has a lifespan of around 200,000 km (125,000 miles). Another key benefit is its unmatched safety while in operation. Added to that, the B0 electric car does not emit any exhaust gases, nor any fine particles. The car’s LMP batteries thus help combat air pollution. The batteries of the B0 also contribute to reducing noise, another nuisance which affects people’s quality of life in urban environments.
Supercapacitors: boosting acceleration and recycling power
Supercapacitors are sophisticated energy storage components developed by the Bolloré Group. In an electric car, supercapacitors draw and store energy generated while the car is braking and feed it back into the system when the car moves off again. The result is greater acceleration, increased range and a longer lifespan for the car’s battery. The electric cars powered by BatScap’s LMP batteries and supercapacitors have a range of over 250 km. They are fast (with a top speed of 130 km/h), pleasant to drive, safe, and long-lasting.
Here's one that fires up my boilers here in sunny Arizona!
Natural energy from solar panels
Because it is 100% electric powered, the B0 does not generate any pollution. But the process of generating the electricity which the car uses must also, as far as possible, not have produced any atmospheric pollution. That is why the creators of the B0 have designed it to incorporate every possible solution designed to optimise the car’s energy efficiency and use of clean energy sources. For instance, the B0 electric car is fitted with supercapacitors, which enable it to store and recycle the energy that is generated while braking. Similarly, the car’s roof and part of its hood are covered with highperformance solar panels which help power some of its equipment. It goes without saying that a responsible environmental approach must be coherent throughout. Which is why all the materials used to build the car’s body, battery and interior trim have been carefully selected for their low environmental impact. All are recyclable or reusable. The Bolloré Group is also in the process of developing straight-forward panels of photovoltaic cells which might be installed by individuals or in public places to fully or partly recharge the B0 electric car’s batteries using solar energy.
http://www.pininfarina.com/index/storiaModelli/B0.html
The 2010 Pininfarina-Bollore B-Zero only takes 5 hours to re-charge!
Pininfarina-Bollore are proposing to send the Los Angeles market some early B0's in 2009, along with two more U.S. market areas. Only 2,000 cars are even set to be imported in 2010, so the amount in 2009 will surely not be very many, either. I'd guess 200 cars to each of the 3 U.S. market areas, but realize that is just a guess.
The rest of America wil get these truly smart automobiles in September of 2010. And a recent clarification occurred on the internet where it was confirmed that Bollore will not rent out the battery pack separately, while the owner bought the rest of the car. It will be sold as one package, which makes more sense to me.
Early testing on the LeBlue cars(made by the same two companies in partnership)has been wonderful. The LeBlue's have gone 125,000 kilometres without any trouble and without any maintenance. Bollore is saying that the batteries will last 125,000 miles. Warranty and pricing are not yet announced(and believe me I've tried to find out both) but there have been internet rumours of pricing at around $27,000, converting over from the Euro in one of Pininfarina-Bollore's press releases from the fall of '08. This price should be knocked down by $7,500 with the Barack Obama rebate, which he has promised for cars built like this to serve the auto-buying public like this. It's sort of a Green Ford for da masses.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
They do that so that on popular models, or during extremely good economic times they can make the most profit.
But on the other end the high MSRP can be a turnoff for the reasons you mentioned, or the number just looks daunting. Who wants to buy an Impala with a $23K+ options sticker, when a 2 year old one is listed for $10K.
GM wanted to stick with 1 price - the MSRP on Saturn; and they blew this by trying to price in too much profit. The Saturns looked expensive compared to the discounted prices on other brands. Now they offer rebates and special financing on Saturns. I think GM should have kept MSRP, but took the rebates off the MSRP and sold it for that. They would have had a significant MSRP advantage this way for their advertising to take advantage of.
Knew people who made a killing when gold was first out of the bag decades ago and hit a ceiling. Chatter said gold should hit 600-650 for a bottom but believed the 714 it recently hit was a new bottom. No safe deposit vault - no protection no insurance - guess the reason for a safe at home by those buying metals. Just surprised by the amount of activity at that store. And it is true the old buy/sell, but that is how the broker lives.
As a former owner of a Cressida and current owner of a Lexus - I have to disagree - My Cressida, though reliable in general (Air Conditioning was problematic) was noisy, rattly, and reminded me a lot of a Ford Fairmont in the way it drove. In fact, it was no better than the Fairmont my wife drove at the same time. The Toyota was a bit more dependable, but certainly lacked any more refinement. Both had inline 6 cylinder engines and RWD. Both had a host of rattles and squeaks, and both drove rather erratically. The Ford had a better Air Conditioner, which never needed service, while the Toyota A/C gave me multiple issues and never was right. The Ford had other weaknesses, but both were amazingly comparable IMO. My Lexus (both of them) have been extraordinary vehicles in most every way. The seats could be more comfortable, but there are few squeaks and rattles, they are drop dead dependable, smooth beyond description, and intelligent in the extreme. About the only High Tech device on my Cressida was an equalizer on the Radio, which frankly did little to improve its performance....
IOW, the Lexus is a way better car than the already very good Toyota.....even today.
As to the question of the topic; I feel a bailout of the Auto Industry in this country is nothing more or less than a bailout of the UAW - and I do not favor that. I think the only way for Ford & GM to survive is to go into Chapter 11, and dismiss the union and dealer contracts, and totally restructure the companies, in a much leaner and more efficient manner, pay the workers what Toyota and Honda and Subaru pay, and invite the workers back. But the legacy costs, the union contracts that require that a plant produce, or the workers be paid not to produce, and generally paying the "employee bank" to show up and play cards all day MUST go if the companies are going to survive. The build good cars already. They could afford to built just as good a car as Toyota does, IF they didn't have to roll in these extra expenses to each car, making them non-competitive. At least that's the way I see it.
By the way, my bank has not needed, nor have we accepted any bailout funds from the government.
Car Pool to D.C.
"The proper people are talking to the proper people, and things are getting put together," said Leuliette. "This really picked up momentum over the weekend."
This makes it sound like they are spending time working on Style, rather than Substance. LOL - it also makes it sound that getting from 1 city to another is something that requires teams of people working many days to figure out for these guys.
I'm sure Wagoner and his subordinates are right now debating what vehicle to take, and what color; rather than trying to figure what divisions and models must go, and how to get their legacy and current costs down.
And IMO Mitt Romney is right on point here too: "a managed bankruptcy may be the only path to the fundamental restructuring the industry needs."
If Congress gave automakers a quick bailout, Romney wrote "automakers will stay the course -- the suicidal course of declining market shares, insurmountable labor and retiree burdens, technology atrophy, product inferiority and never-ending job losses. Detroit needs a turnaround, not a check."
As for the whole fuss being made about the execs flying in on corporate jets, I don't think it matters all that much. Yes, symbolism is important but in this case ACTION is a lot more important. The meat of the domestics' turnaround will come in reducing executive compensation by about 90%, finding some leaders for these companies that can actually do the job, and breaking these outrageous UAW contracts. If they keep a private jet or two, it is such a minor part of what is going on, I would ignore it personally.
This made me chuckle though: On Friday, GM said it had already returned two of its seven leased jets and would get rid of two more. Ford Motor Co. also said it was considering slimming down its corporate jet fleet.
THAT they will do, but when it comes to taking care of the issues I named above? That they won't do in any effective manner. :sick:
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
After they file for bankruptcy and have a good reorganization plan in place with low paid executives, maybe a loan would be appropriate. Iococca only took a buck a year till they were making money again.
Ya THINK??????
Un-freakin'-believable! Now we must give them cash?? They need Rotp-Rooter on the brain if you ask me!
So, again, I ask: You think this will be the last time they ask for cash even if they get it this time? Come on, Really??
Regards,
OW
If this isn't demanded from Congress or no deal, I will lead a march on Washington the likes Obama has not even thought could be possible!
These guys need religion!! No more Mr. Nice Guy!!!
Regards,
OW
I might join you. I would like to see the Smithsonian before I die. Never been to DC or had any real desire except the museums.
May I respectfully recommend the Tomb of the Unknown Soldiers and the changing of the guard. I also recommend Lincoln Memorial. Union Terminal is interesting for people watching.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
DC is a hoot; better to take the Metro than try to drive though. :shades:
Arlington is quite a humbling experience especially in a full burial ceremony. I will never forget it and the sacrifice that is beckoning to you even today. I salute all of these souls and their families.
I really appreciated the Lincoln Memorial and the WWII Memorial.
Hopefully, the Big 3 CEO's will take a swing past Arlington National to give them a clearer baseline from which to lead the necessary change and forget their huge compensation and EGO.
Regards,
OW
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The short list of my dislikes of Bush has grown over the bailouts. Another $350 Billion for citigroup? but nothing for GM? I think Japan owns a good chunk of Citi.
We can only HOPE they take a cut. Or maybe they should just commit hari-kari!
BTW, I wonder if the B3 CEOs watched the SNL skit (surely they did). That had to sting . . . or perhaps not. :sick:
2 yr old for $10k is BS. With 100k miles on it....maybe.
Even the Accord loses over $4k in depreciation in year 1.
I could have had an Impala for a price that would have virtually made depreciation a non-factor.
Nobody pays MSRP, that's just the number that would give GM a viable business plan
I just did the quick appraise on a two year old Impala LT with 30,000 miles. I included the normal kind of stuff. It came back at a little over $9900 trade-in. Rocky just posted his brother buying a $23k Impala for $17,700. That does not bode well for trade-in two years from now.
My own sad GMC story:
Bought a 2005 GMC hybrid PU in June of 2005 when the family discounts were offered. This truck had lots of nice stuff. MSRP was $36k. I got it after a real haggle for $26k plus TTL. One and a half years later I decided I wanted an SUV and drove the 2007 Denali Yukon. I cannot remember the exact figures. It was over $40k. My PU was perfect and I had added an aluminum roll-top over he bed for $1300. This was the same dealer I bought the truck from. It had 13k highway miles and he offered me $16k in trade. I stood up and told him that was an insult to my intelligence and walked out. I listed it on Craigslist and a fellow from LA came down and gave me $23k cash for the truck. That kind of loss on a PU truck is horrible, and the worst I have ever had. The truck was not as solid as my 1998 Suburban. I did like the Stereo and climate control. That will probably be my last GM vehicle.