My BIL just bought an '05 Dodge Ram 2500 SLT quad cab with Cummins diesel with 50k miles on it and in immaculate condition for $14k at a Dodge dealership.
With those kind of buys it would be tough to justify a new vehicle of any kind. How long before the lots would empty of new and used cars if the Big 3 closed their doors tomorrow? I think a year maybe.
A loan? OK... as long as there are VERY strict terms and conditions regarding what they plan to do with the money and how soon we get it paid back.
One of the biggest reasons we're where we are right now was the idiotic decision to encourage loans to people who had no way of ever paying back the loans. Show me that the money is actually going to do some good and isn't going down an eternally-hungry black hole.
no, I am actually just someone who was hit like a ton of bricks around Dec.'07-Jan.'08 that we need to wean ourselves off of dependence on foreign oil. If we can put a man on the moon(did we really do that? Maybe Jim Carrey was on to something in 'Dumb and Dumber" when he excitedly leaves the bar yelling "We landed on the moon!" It was new to him on that day...but, was that moon landing really all a farce pulled over all our eyes?)
I see scads of potential in this little 2010 Pininfarina-Bollore B0 for me in sunny Arizona. It has solar panels up above on the roof and in the grille, it has regenerative braking, etc. All the "green" automotive bells and whistles one should have in their all-electric car.
But what really grabs at my brain is all of the hard work and no doubt mistakes corrected by France's huge Bollore Group. Their method of building this lithium polymer battery encased in steel is not only solving the safety problem but it's just good carbuilding, by that I mean how the batteries are enclosed and solidly tucked away. But they've solved the problem nobody else has with their patented batteries...longevity.
The sort of "mule" LeBlue cars have gone 125,000 miles with no problems and with no maintenance, either! This is technology that I can just see Mike Myers playing Dr.Evil and having that finger stuck in his teeth, heaving a bone-rattling "1 Million dollars" to the UN. Only Pininfarina-Bollore are going to use this smart idea for the betterment of the environment and the betterment of people like myself, who are tired of this rollercoaster of oil-baronish snobbery and smuckish-ness and up and down and up and down pricing for sweet crude barrels of oil.
Been there and done that for years. Let's welcome a change of thinking here, gentlemen.
85 mph tops, it's electronically limited to go no faster. A range of 153 miles but equipped with those solar panels to help out people like me who live in the hot desert! Whoo-hooo! Re-charge takes only 5 hours on a standard household 120-volt socket. I bet my wife and I could drive the 80 miles to Tucson and with the regenerative braking revitalizing it's electrical system and with the charge-up from the solar panels we could get back home, even though it goes over it's built-in standard range of 153 miles. That is my own little personal challenge to do. Sort of my personal pact to buy one of these. Sometime in 2009 a hundred or so of these cars will be imported for the L.A. market(OK, so it's 550 miles to my northwest!)but if I miss one of those I'll try for late 2010 or 2011 sometime. The time has come to jump ship, men! Mutiny!
Just found an Impala LS for $22000 MSRP after 1750 rebate. Otherwise I'd compara LT models.
Then I priced a 2007, 30000 mi, 3.5 V6 comparable Impala in our zip code and it comes out $14,600 for Certified so that it has the warranty to match the new 2009. Without the warranty is $13,900.
Every day the sense to bailout the Big 3 gets more ridiculous. I know it's a catch-22 regarding a hit to the economy but this seems like just the beginning of a long line of Government controlled business.
Ready for more insanity?
Housing industry wants a big government bailout!!! :mad:
A bail-out will only delay the inevitable, IMO. These companies will never make money in their current state. Chapter 11 is exactly what these companies need to escape the UAW and down-size dramatically. GM sold as many cars as Toyota did last year, and still lost $$billions. A bail-out would probably come with conditions on how many workers could be laid off, which would be another big mistake.
GM also needs to learn how to build more durable cars. My 92 Accord, and 03 Accord with a combined 200,000 miles have cost me less in repairs over 17 years, than my father's 01 Chevy Malibu with 50,000 miles over just 9 years. I also drive my cars much harder than he does. Who, in their right mind, buys one of these things? He didn't know better at the time. Now he does.
With so much bad news circling around GM, some haven't given up hope for federal help. CNN Money notes that Andrew Parmentier, an analyst at Friedman, Billings, and Ramsey, wrote in a note to investors on Friday, "If a major automaker fails and enters into liquidation, we expect Congress to use bridge funding as leverage in 2009 to actually implement restructuring proposals."
Without federal help, it seems, few can imagine GM surviving.
While the bailout debate goes on, automakers are trying to sell cars as fast as possible with deep discounts.
Looks like November might come in at -27% sales for the industry, slightly better than October.
I'm confused by your post. You bought it for $26K+ and sold it for $23. That's a good retention of value for 1.5 years and 13,000 miles.
Not when new ones were back up in the high $30k range. I don't mind losing a couple grand after a year or so on a PU truck. I have bought new and sold higher more than I have lost money. If you buy right and take the vehicle to a good market you can make money. Two of the GM trucks I bought in Seattle and sold in Alaska at a profit after about a year driving them. I don't like losing money. That is why I rarely will buy a car. Cars are a big loss out the gate.
You also have to take into consideration they only built 200 hybrid PU trucks for the CA market. Even then it was not a slam dunk sale. I advertised on Craigslist for nearly 6 months. Don't get me wrong. I was glad to sell at $23k. Just the horrible taxes and license in CA I had to absorb. That was a first for me. All my vehicles since 1970 were bought and licensed in Alaska. NO TAX and $30 per year license. I am having a real problem with the horrible taxes in this state of thug politicians.
No state in the UNION wastes more tax money than CA.
You remember the bridge to nowhere? I missed this blurb back during the election season, but it turns out that the three-mile bridge access road that was built on Gravina Island is ready for residents to take a drive to nowhere. CNN
This brings back memories from the 1960s when the Edmund G Brown bridge was built over to Coronado killing the ferry business. It was considered a giant boondoggle at the time.
A friend that was at the trial for Ted in DC told me it was a joke. That jury would have convicted Mother Teresa. And my friend is a dyed in the wool Democrat. Her dad was secretary of labor under Sheffield. She was there with a friend that was a witness for Ted Stevens. I guess Begich won so maybe they will call a mistrial and let Ted live out his years in peace.
Another tidbit. Latest poll says most people consider the Internet the Best source of news.
A Zogby Poll, commissioned by IFC, found 37.6% of those asked consider the Internets the most reliable source of news. 20.3% consider national TV news most reliable and 16% say radio is the most reliable source.
Also revealed:
• 39.3% of those surveyed trust FOX News most for the issues they consider most important, followed by CNN with 16% and MSNBC with 15%.
• 72.6% believe the news they read and see is biased.
• 88.7% Republican and 57.5% Democrat respondents describe the news media as biased.
"My own sad GMC story: Bought a 2005 GMC hybrid PU in June of 2005 when the family discounts were offered. This truck had lots of nice stuff. MSRP was $36k. I got it after a real haggle for $26k plus TTL. One and a half years later I decided I wanted an SUV and drove the 2007 Denali Yukon. I cannot remember the exact figures. It was over $40k. My PU was perfect and I had added an aluminum roll-top over he bed for $1300. This was the same dealer I bought the truck from. It had 13k highway miles and he offered me $16k in trade. I stood up and told him that was an insult to my intelligence and walked out. I listed it on Craigslist and a fellow from LA came down and gave me $23k cash for the truck. That kind of loss on a PU truck is horrible, and the worst I have ever had. The truck was not as solid as my 1998 Suburban. I did like the Stereo and climate control. That will probably be my last GM vehicle."
Let me understand your predicament: You were insulted when they offered you 16K in trade for your obsolete truck. Yet you weren't insulted when you practically "stole" it for 26k with the family pricing and all those discounts and then suckered an LA city slicker into paying 23k for it. A $1300.00 chrome roll bar should increase the trade value another 8k I would guess. Oh, and let's not forget the "highway miles". Just curious, how much better was the gas mileage over the conventional gas truck?
Seems like we had the "Zogby is biased" discussion once before.
Just heard some of a rerun of Obama's press conference today. Sure sounds like he wants to give Detroit some money, just as soon as Detroit can come up with a justification for needing it.
I would favor a loan, not a handout. I feel for the auto workers and have nothing but disdain for the executives of the big three. The writing has been on the wall for decades, not years, decades. I would have to have lots of preconditions before a loan was granted. What is their plan, repayment schedules, etc.
has some pretty good ideas, after you get past the part where he seems to be weeping in his soup for all the unfairnesses (is that a word?! :-P) the domestics have had to suffer since WWII.
It's when he invokes the domestics' leadership on E85 that I call foul, but he goes on to promote some new ideas I haven't heard yet that might be a good alternative to a bankruptcy filing. Among them:
First, I would invest part of the Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) money in the automakers' captive finance companies at competitive rates securitized by the finance or lease paper. This will dramatically reduce incentive costs for the Detroit Three. It also will benefit consumers who are finding it difficult to get financing, even with good credit scores.
Second, I would enable the Detroit makers to draw against the $25 billion immediately to cover all investments they have made to date in green technology. That includes hybrid development, plug-in hybrids, EcoBoost, fuel cells and E85. This will keep them going until the next stage.
Third, take $250 billion of the TARP money that the current administration will not spend and invest it in the new Industrial Bank of America. This bank will have the mandate to rebuild our manufacturing base, including our auto industry, with the progressive application of green technology. It also will rebuild our power grid with solar, wind and wave technology; it has to be renewable.
I especially like the first and third points: a major financing base to promote development of alt power technology, as well as provide reliable, widely available credit for the industry and customers alike (this last is particularly crucial for GM now that it has lost control of GMAC). And the second point makes pulling the already approved $25 billion forward to repay them for investments they have already made seem almost sensible. I would imagine GM's cumulative investment in the Volt is substantial by this point. And Chrysler's in electric cars? And Ford with its own hybrids and EcoBoost?
After the three main points the author goes off on a flight of fancy about how he would manage the restructuring of healthcare in America - yes that one is mostly pie in the sky. Fixing healthcare for the domestics and EVERYONE aint gonna be as easy as all that. But then he writes this:
Look at selling off certain brands, such as Volvo and Saab. Close Hummer. Buick is a highly successful brand in China, so try to get investment from China in that brand.
Develop specific consumer missions for all of the brands; this will help sales in brand-conscious areas such as California
And maybe there could be a couple more brands gone between GM and Ford...
He makes an emotional appeal for supporting and rejuvenating the manufacturing sector in America, starting with the carmakers. Ultimately, one of the things one must decide in this whole bailout thing is how much one values domestic manufacturing in general, and whether it is worth spending a TON of money trying to save it.
But will a cash infusion save it? Global market forces with regard to labor costs dictate that the domestics will continue migrating all their production to Mexico and other low-cost Central American locales, don't they? I think it is inevitable unless they can somehow eliminate the UAW from existence entirely.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"First, I would invest part of the Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) money in the automakers' captive finance companies at competitive rates securitized by the finance or lease paper. This will dramatically reduce incentive costs for the Detroit Three. It also will benefit consumers who are finding it difficult to get financing, even with good credit scores. "
I have a problem with the last part of this statement. Mr. Wagoner even mentioned it during the grilling , I mean hearings. GM won't finance anyone with a score less than 700. Since when did they become so selective? The other part is I don't know who is having problems getting a loan with a good credit rating. Two of my sons just bought cars in the last month. One a loaded import made by Nissan's high line company and the other bought a pre-owned 7 year old sports car. Neither had a problem getting a loan. Both have excellent credit and the one that bought the used vehicle is only 23 years old but has a FICO score of 751, is about to graduate from college, has a full time job and pays his bills on time. His older brother ain't doing too bad either. Score is way over 7xx also and he is very fiscally responsible. So my point is the money is there for those that qualify for it.
As long as we're talking about the money being there ONLY if you qualify for it, I'm on board. But we have to stop loaning money to people who cannot pay it back. There are always going to be changing circumstances that cause defaults on some loans. We don't have to increase that number by creating loans that have little or no chance of being paid off from the outset.
Well, I guess these guys really are disconnected from reality. If I wanted to make an impression, I'd drive one of my own manufacturer's cars from Detroit to D.C. to make a point. "See! I made it all the way from Michigan to D.C. and my Buick didn't break down! I believe in my products!" Heck, to really make a statement, I'd have driven my old beater! "See! 21 years-old, and my Buick is still reliable!"
If GM doesn't get a bailout - NOBODY SHOULD!!! Not Citi, not AIG, not ANYBODY!!! Let 'em all go down in flames! You want cold hard cruel capitalism? Let the market decide!
Image is everything, or so they say. I can imagine the reaction if they did drive to DC in one of their cars...
What kind of companies do these guys run that they can't afford to fly to DC? :shades:
Speaking of images, GM ended its 9 year endorsement deal, estimated at $7.5 per year, with Tiger Woods.
Mark Steinberg, Woods's agent, said Woods had been impressed with the way Buick transformed its image, doing away with stodgier models and releasing more updated cars.
“We saw that it was going to work,” Steinberg said. “We saw what Buick wanted to do with their brand.”
Saw that it was going to work? Buick sales in the US were down 54% from 2000 to 2007 and the average age of a Buick sedan purchaser is 66.
Perhaps someone will impulse purchase a $200 pair of sneakers based on a celebrity endorsement. Not so sure it works that way with a $30,000 vehicle.
Let me understand your predicament: You were insulted when they offered you 16K in trade for your obsolete truck.
If you consider a year and a half old PU truck obsolete. The dealer was offering me low book on a full priced Denali. That is an insult to my way of thinking. I proved the value of the truck by finding a buyer willing to pay a decent though not what I would consider a great price for the truck. It was not a roll bar. It was a locking rollup bed cover. The truck was always garaged and did not have a single scratch. It did not get near the mileage EPA suggests. It did much better on a trip through NM and CO. Highest was 22 MPG. Around San Diego I averaged about 16.5 MPG.
By the way I got $16,500 for my 7.5 year old Suburban that cost me $35k in 1998.
It all adds up to the deterioration of GM from the dealers all the way to the CEO. Bailing them out is throwing good money after bad. I feel bad for those that bought GM stock at $75 and now it is worth about $3.50.
Sheesh! Darned if they do and darned if they don't! If they take a corporate jet, they look like they're living high off the hog. They drive there themselves, they look like they're living in abject poverty!
2 yr old for $10k is BS. With 100k miles on it....maybe. Even the Accord loses over $4k in depreciation in year 1. I could have had an Impala for a price that would have virtually made depreciation a non-factor. Nobody pays MSRP, that's just the number that would give GM a viable business plan
Well, my Dad's 2003 Regal, purchased used in September 2003, was $10,995. With tax, tags, an extended warranty to ease his mind, and EVERYTHING, the out-the-door price was $12,840.
Now this was just the LS model with the regular 3.8 V-6, so it wasn't supercharged. Also, no leather, no sunroof, plastic wheelcovers.
To this day, we still don't know why the car was so cheap. It had 19,500 miles on it when Dad bought it, and we knew it had been a rental car, because of some paperwork in the glovebox. The build date on the doorjamb sticker was June 2002, so this car was a very early '03, but still, an '03. That was 5 years ago, and nothing of any interest has gone wrong with the car. I'd imagine that if it was hiding any problems, they would have surfaced by now.
My only guess is that the dealership had the car on their lot for awhile, and just wanted it cleared out to make room for something else.
I remember they also had a steel blue 2002 Intrepid parked next to the Regal on the lot, for $8995. It had around 39,500 miles on it, and was a base model with the 2.7. Basically, the same car as my 2000 Intrepid. While I have a preference for the Intrepid, I think the Regal was definitely worth the $2,000 price premium. If nothing else, to get a year newer car with 20,000 fewer miles on it. The Regal was also better equipped, having ABS, an oil life monitor, tire pressure monitor, torquier engine, etc.
I remember telling my Dad that if he didn't buy that Regal, I would!
Oh, as for MSRP, IIRC a 2003 Regal LS stickered for around $26K. But, like you said, nobody pays MSRP. I guess it probably would've sold for more like $21-22K?
Alex Taylor III writes: Wagoner's biggest flaw may be that he has been too forgiving. Here is a company that has lost more than $72 billion in the past four years, and yet you can count on one hand the number of executives who have been reassigned or lost their job. After spending $1 billion to shut down Oldsmobile, Wagoner has allowed GM's other weak divisions to live on despite their fading resonance in the marketplace. (A competitor says Wagoner is "too fundamentally decent" to cut off dealerships and put their employees on the street. GM says closing divisions isn't cost-effective.)
Nonetheless, the dedication and thoughtfulness that Wagoner communicated, along with measurable signs of progress (growth in foreign markets, successful new products, continued payroll reductions) prompted me to produce a skein of optimistic, if hedged, stories about the company. I should have taken to heart the analysis of Fortune's Carol Loomis, who saw bankruptcy looming for GM some three years ago. But after my most recent piece suggesting that a real turnaround was at hand, I finally ran out of patience. The company had been caught totally off guard by the spike in oil prices and possessed no backup plan when truck sales cratered and destroyed GM's business model for North America. Despite hopeful pronouncements, Delphi, its former parts division and now an independent company, took another turn for the worse and sank deeper into bankruptcy.
If Washington wants to bail out GM, it's fine with me. A lot of short-term angst will be avoided, and taxpayer money has been spent for worse purposes. But you have to wonder whether the insular, self-absorbed culture that still dominates GM is up to the job of restructuring the company quickly enough to make it profitable and competitive again. GM has been on a downward path ever since I began covering it. What is going to make it different this time? As painful as bankruptcy may be, it would give GM the leverage it needs to redo its labor contracts and dealer franchise agreements, downsize the company, recruit new management, and position itself for an economic upturn in 2010 that would enable it to regain some fraction of its former glory.
Once again, boys might even dream of becoming chairman of General Motors
Whether you think industry A, B, C, or D need bailout help, read the following. If the government continues to spend now, we are using any reserves we have, and will not have these options in the future.
We must be very careful how we spend $, to use it only in the most critical of spots. I always question how Congress spends $ on some of their projects and then says they don't have $ to fund healthcare, and help injured veterans and such.
I saw Nissan is pulling out of auto shows. These can't be that expensive for a company that size, so I'm wondering if they are getting into the same cash crisis as Detroit?
I think the only way for Ford & GM to survive is to go into Chapter 11, and dismiss the union and dealer contracts, and totally restructure the companies, in a much leaner and more efficient manner, pay the workers what Toyota and Honda and Subaru pay, and invite the workers back.
Invite the workers back.....I wonder what the GM management contingency planning is thinking about this. Will all workers, former UAW and engineers, have to fill out job applications after a Chapter 11? Will managers also have to reapply? What are chances of hot-head union guys being rehired? Will Democrats have passed card-check law that would allow former UAW workers to quickly rejoin union? Will Congress require a new top managment team and new Board?
Would favor some type of modest loan to help bridge GM through a pre-packaged Chapter 11 and with some kind of assurance from GM to drop brands, models, dealers.
the bailout for the big 3 is fair and necessary. Who doesn't know their business plan? 1. gas stay at $1.75 a gallon, where it belongs. 2. The economy snaps back to normal, because underlying the fundamentals are good. 3. Continue to fight the union for concessions by threatening and executing plant closings. 4. Continue evolving product lines as they already have. I'm perfectly content with the new Malibu if I want to get 30 mpg hwy in a 170 HP car.
The Obama plan is based on the fundamentals being bad before Nov. 4th, and that they are good after Nov. 4th. So far, we are on plan. Obama just said we need a 2% of GDP injection to snap back to life. Kinda like America is Ironman, but has a bacteria infection that a few pills will cure.
The big question is, gas at $1.75 is a requirement of the economy snapping back. Will we allow the oil suppliers to destroy everything again, if it snaps back?
I saw Nissan is pulling out of auto shows. These can't be that expensive for a company that size, so I'm wondering if they are getting into the same cash crisis as Detroit?
I think it's just as much a factor that they don't consider Detroit to be an important show any more. But I imagine it's also for cost-cutting. Automakers are focusing more on the LA show these days...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I think it is inevitable unless they can somehow eliminate the UAW from existence entirely.
If you take a minute to watch this amazing state of the art Ford plant in Brazil you will see what the Big 3 are capable of. Listen to the last few words too - Ford would love to build this plant in Detroit but the UAW won't allow it.
I didn't see any emoticons; so I'm assuming your serious about your Point 2?
I think you should start reading a financial paper, if you think the underlying fundamentals of the economy are good! Many people have overspent for years, they've bought houses that are now worth 50%, or have seen no appreciation in 10 years, people have nothing to show for 10 years investing in 401K's ...
As the Obama team is now saying - we'll be lucky, very lucky, if we're out of recession in 2-3 years. Decades of bad decsions that got us in this situation - whether in the Big 3 or the economy, are not going to be fixed in a few months.
I think the Big3 will again get raked-over-the-coals if they come back to Congress with a few tweaks to their business-as-usual. They had better come back with a plan for a market of 10-12M vehicle sales and what realistic slice they have of that, what revenue they have from that, and what their total costs will be. And the bottom line better show they can make a profit!
If they come in with vehicle sales in 2009 will be 15M, and our marketshare will increase, but we'll still lose money because of pensions and wages, then they should be ushered to the door (or committed for wasting our time).
The Big3 need to plan for a very bad economy and how to make $; if the economy turns around then great they make more $. But we can not loan $25B now, and in summer '09 when that's gone, give them another $25B.
I am not responsible for what the Big3 or the unions got themselves into; they have never helped me, and therefore I see little reason to support them forever! :mad: Let them all get in a room, and decide what they will cut to start making money; they either decide to live in some matter or decide to hold their position and die!
Nissan pulled out of the Chicago auto show too, from what I've heard. I wonder if they're also going to pull out of the DC and Philly auto shows?
Since they just introduced the 370Z, last year the GT-R and the Maxima, and the rest of their lineup is fairly new, maybe they just don't have anything left to redo. Their oldest products are the Xterra and Titan and maybe they decided not to invest in a redesign of those given the market for those vehicles.
It is also prudent not to waste money, BEFORE you get in trouble, rather then wait until you're months from bankruptcy to save $.
Andre, I think that the Philadelphia and Washington, D.C., shows are organized by the local dealers without corporate support. It's the dealers' decision as to whether there will be a display.
Those shows are geared to getting customers' butts behind the wheel, so that they will keep Brand X in mind when it comes time to buy a new vehicle. They aren't about unveiling new concept cars or production models to a national audience. I can't imagine that local Nissan dealers would want to be completely left out of that action.
The Big3 need to plan for a very bad economy and how to make $; if the economy turns around then great
In the best of years selling huge high margin SUVs, GM could not make 5% net profit. I would consider that a good reason to fold up the tent and go home. It looks like Ford has a plan. It probably will send more of their operations out of the USA. Will Ford's share of a bailout build factories in other countries like that beauty in Brazil?
Auto Industry Impact on the U.S. Economy • Nearly 4% of the U.S. GDP is auto-related • One out of every 10 U.S. jobs is auto-related • Accounts for $690 billion, or about 20% of all U.S. retail sales • Generates more than $10 billion of annual tax revenue • Largest purchaser of steel, aluminum, iron, copper, plastics, rubber and electronic chips • Second only to the semiconductor industry in R&D spending
GM’s Contribution to the U.S. Economy • Directly employs approximately 96,000 people • Has 6,500 dealers across the country who employ another 340,000 people • Provides pension benefits for nearly 475,000 retirees and spouses • Extends health care benefits to about 1,000,000 people • Purchased in 2007, $30 billion of goods and services from 2,000 suppliers in 46 states • Sold 22 million vehicles in the last five years that have more domestic-parts content than Honda and Toyota Learn more at gmfactsandfiction.com View a video at youtube.com/watch?v=72cHfOKoA1c
Changing for the Better • GM negotiated a landmark labor agreement with the UAW in 2007 that will enable us to match labor costs with foreign automakers by 2010 and virtually erase the competitive gap • 11 of GM’s last 13 new vehicle launches have been cars and crossovers, and 60% of our capacity will be dedicated to these vehicles by the end of 2010 • GM leads in manufacturing productivity in 11 out of the 20 North American segments in which it competes (2008 Harbour Report) and has 5 of the top 10 best rated engine plants in North America and the #1 transmission plant • In the 2008 J.D. Power Initial Quality Study, GM had more segment leaders than Toyota or Honda •GM have reduced warranty repairs by 40% over the last five years •GM is targeting fuel economy leadership in every class of vehicle we introduce and GM has 20 models that get at least 30 MPG highway, based on 2009 EPA estimates – that’s twice the number of our nearest competitor • GM is making a major commitment to hybrid cars and trucks and offers nine hybrids for 2009 • GM is a world leader in biofuel vehicles with more than 3 million flex-fuel vehicles on the road in the U.S. and has committed to make flex-fuel vehicles 50% of annual volume by 2012 •GM has established the world’s largest hydrogen fuel-cell test fleet here in the U.S. •GM is working to bring the Chevy Volt extended range electric vehicle to market by November 2010. Volt is designed to move 75% of America’s daily commuters without using a single drop of gas!
Nissan pulled out of the Chicago auto show too, from what I've heard. I wonder if they're also going to pull out of the DC and Philly auto shows?
The other thing not mentioned by the previous posters is that Chicago and Detroit are both in the Midwest, a market largely devoted to domestic cars. I remember visiting Chicago and seeing many cars I had never seen even once here at home, except in pictures.
The bigger markets away from the Midwest are also much bigger markets for the imports, so it makes sense for them to concentrate show dollars there.
At this rate (we are up to what, six automakers not attending the Detroit show, all foreign?) the domestics will have the Detroit show all to themselves. But will they be able to afford a large presence there? It looks like they are not spending much on making it to the California shows this month.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Accounts for $690 billion, or about 20% of all U.S. retail sales
GM only accounts for about $150 billion so the others can pick up their share.
Those are all nice statistics about GM. You left out the most important one. GM lost $72 BILLION over the last 4 years. They have NO PLAN to pull out of that kind of loss. GM lost money the year Toyota had their most profit EVER. If GM could not make money in 2004-2006. How can they make money when the economy is in the toilet? Why prolong the agony and throw away your children's future?
I would think emotions in those cities may be running high with the Big 3 headed for bankruptcy. They may not want to rub their superior vehicles in the face of the workers. Especially in Detroit.
I like cold hard blue Capatalism, whatever that means. I don't find Capitalism to be cruel, only fair and just.
I have written off my fair share of companies due to poor customer service or poor product buying experiences. Here are all of the companies I've written off for years now:
1) Chrysler (1995 Vehicle purchased in 1994.... probably wrote them off around 4 years later as I had tremendous warranty costs right after the 3 year 36K mile mark, and although I had a lot of warranty visits the first 3 years, I didn't write them off until the problems increased EXPONENTIALLY after warranty expiration; thanks Chrysler engineers; you got it JUST RIGHT with a perfect design to fail like clockwork AFTER the warranty expired. Good job, your design timing was better than Rolex! (Will go bankrupt in 2009 without 3rd bailout!) 2) Ford (guilty by association with Big 3) (Will go bankrupt in 2010 w/o bailout #2)? 3) GM (guilty by association with Big 3) Will go bankrupt by Xmas w/o bailout #2)? 4) AT&T (thriving despite being on the top 10 WORST lists of customer service) 5) Circuit City (Filed for Bankruptcy recently; good riddance! middle finger is appropriate to their workers!) 6) Best Buy (Thriving despite terrible Customer Service reviews; probably because Good Guys, Tweeter, and others have gone out of business first). 7) Insurance Agent: Eastwood Insurance (criminals) 8) Insurance Company: Bristol West (criminals) 9) Insurance Underwriter: Coast National Insurance (associated with above)
Based on the list above, I think I have a good knack for hating/avoiding/writing-off companies that are doomed to fail. Inevitable failure; just a matter of time. Oh yeah, Bank of America almost made the list above, but they did finally settle after a few letters going up the chain.
Companies that honored their product by honoring warranties, contracts, terms, and conditions, and even display exemplary service by extending warranties when needed; free of charge; demonstrated a willingness to care about retaining a customer: (I'd DEFINITELY BUY from these companies again).
1) Honda (thriving) 2) Sony (but they have 1 strike; still good). 3) Audi (best car to date in every way) 4) Kenwood (fixed my car stereo 6 months after warranty expired) 5) Mercury Insurance (pays out on claims; what a novelty for an insurance company). 6) Cox Cable (good phone and cable service, good customer service, but is getting pricey!) 7) Toyota (based on relatives and friends' insanely reliable experiences) 8) Crutchfield Electronics
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Get outside of the city and you'll see a lot of imports and large import dealers. If its not a financial thing, I think it is dumb marketing. Not appearing at two large shows sort of makes them look like they are admiting they are an also ran, not in the same league as Toyota and Honda. I mean how much does it cost to put up some signs and some cars on the floor? I know the media makes the midwest look like it is in dire shape, but the reality is there are a lot of there who are working and buy cars. I don't think it is smart marketing to snub any geographic area when you are a national marketer. I was in Des Moines and amazed at all of the people at restaurannts on a weekday night and by all of the newer cars in the parking lots. I think that, like the south, housing is a lot less expensive than on the coasts, so they have a lot more discretionary income in their pockets. Maybe Nissan is just a cheap company? I wonder where else they are skimping for a few nickels and dimes?
GM’s Contribution to the U.S. Economy • Directly employs approximately 96,000 people • Has 6,500 dealers across the country who employ another 340,000 people • Provides pension benefits for nearly 475,000 retirees and spouses • Extends health care benefits to about 1,000,000 people
Above are the reasons GM is broke. They don't have the market share nor the gross profit margins to support those numbers.
The answer is easy, the formula to get there is not.
I really don't care what percentage of GDP GM sales are or how many jobs will be lost if they close up. Like Gagrice said, GM has lost billions upon billions. They have to have a plan that allows GM to earn a profit when U.S. sales are going to stay in the 10-12 million range for the foreseeable future.
If GM doesn't get a bailout - NOBODY SHOULD!!! Not Citi, not AIG, not ANYBODY!!! Let 'em all go down in flames! You want cold hard cruel capitalism? Let the market decide!
Finally! Agreed! No money to the Big 3 then! It's FINAL!
Andres, I have quite a few of the same on my list.
I despise: 1. Circuit city for what they did to their experienced employees a few years ago. Fired them, hired greenpeas, offered jobs to the older folks at reduced wages. Hmmpf! I have never bought anything there since that happened. I feel bad for the employees that were let go. This accounted for nothing more than age discrimination if you ask me. Looks like they are about to close a bunch of stores. Serves them right. 2 At$t horrible customer service. Charged me phone and internet service in a residence I no longer occupied even after I called to cancel service one month prior to moving. One year of money down the drain taken by those thieves. 3. GM, mom had a 67 Chevy Nova. Worst POS we've ever owned. Would die in the middle of traffic, smoked like a chimney, and was never fixed. She ended up trading it on a Ford Galaxie 500.
The good: 1. Sony. Had one bad experience with a store but not Sony's fault. Sony stepped up to repair tv after I wrote to Sony USA president. Came home and picked up tv, fixed and been happy as a pig in slop after numerous Sony products. 2. Nissan, Honda, Toyota, not necessarily in that order. All three brands have given us excellent service. Most have over 150k miles and still going. 3. Directv, great service. It's a GM owned company but you wouldn't know. 4. Crutchfield, I'm with you on this one. I've been a loyal customer of them for over 20 years. Their products may be more expensive than the rest of the bunch but their service and tech support is second to none.
I feel bad for those that bought GM stock at $75 and now it is worth about $3.50.
I don't feel bad for them. Investing in GM in the last 30 years was crazy and stupid to begin with, but this is just insane:
After your investment falls 33% or more, they should have jumped ship and sold at $50 a share if they bought at $75/share. It's called cut your losses and RUN.
Holding onto a bad investment that can only get worse is insane, and I don't feel sorry for insanely idiotic people.
How about selling at 25 a share and accepting 66% loss? Now they have to sell at 0.01 or I'm not buying!
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Comments
One of the biggest reasons we're where we are right now was the idiotic decision to encourage loans to people who had no way of ever paying back the loans. Show me that the money is actually going to do some good and isn't going down an eternally-hungry black hole.
I'm confused by your post. You bought it for $26K+ and sold it for $23.
That's a good retention of value for 1.5 years and 13,000 miles.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I see scads of potential in this little 2010 Pininfarina-Bollore B0 for me in sunny Arizona. It has solar panels up above on the roof and in the grille, it has regenerative braking, etc. All the "green" automotive bells and whistles one should have in their all-electric car.
But what really grabs at my brain is all of the hard work and no doubt mistakes corrected by France's huge Bollore Group. Their method of building this lithium polymer battery encased in steel is not only solving the safety problem but it's just good carbuilding, by that I mean how the batteries are enclosed and solidly tucked away. But they've solved the problem nobody else has with their patented batteries...longevity.
The sort of "mule" LeBlue cars have gone 125,000 miles with no problems and with no maintenance, either! This is technology that I can just see Mike Myers playing Dr.Evil and having that finger stuck in his teeth, heaving a bone-rattling "1 Million dollars" to the UN. Only Pininfarina-Bollore are going to use this smart idea for the betterment of the environment and the betterment of people like myself, who are tired of this rollercoaster of oil-baronish snobbery and smuckish-ness and up and down and up and down pricing for sweet crude barrels of oil.
Been there and done that for years. Let's welcome a change of thinking here, gentlemen.
85 mph tops, it's electronically limited to go no faster. A range of 153 miles but equipped with those solar panels to help out people like me who live in the hot desert! Whoo-hooo! Re-charge takes only 5 hours on a standard household 120-volt socket. I bet my wife and I could drive the 80 miles to Tucson and with the regenerative braking revitalizing it's electrical system and with the charge-up from the solar panels we could get back home, even though it goes over it's built-in standard range of 153 miles. That is my own little personal challenge to do. Sort of my personal pact to buy one of these. Sometime in 2009 a hundred or so of these cars will be imported for the L.A. market(OK, so it's 550 miles to my northwest!)but if I miss one of those I'll try for late 2010 or 2011 sometime. The time has come to jump ship, men! Mutiny!
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Then I priced a 2007, 30000 mi, 3.5 V6 comparable Impala in our zip code and it comes out $14,600 for Certified so that it has the warranty to match the new 2009.
Without the warranty is $13,900.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Ready for more insanity?
Housing industry wants a big government bailout!!! :mad:
More Insanity
Just what we need..stimulus to flood the market with more new homes!
Regards,
OW
GM also needs to learn how to build more durable cars. My 92 Accord, and 03 Accord with a combined 200,000 miles have cost me less in repairs over 17 years, than my father's 01 Chevy Malibu with 50,000 miles over just 9 years. I also drive my cars much harder than he does. Who, in their right mind, buys one of these things? He didn't know better at the time. Now he does.
Without federal help, it seems, few can imagine GM surviving.
While the bailout debate goes on, automakers are trying to sell cars as fast as possible with deep discounts.
Looks like November might come in at -27% sales for the industry, slightly better than October.
The Fat Lady has already warmed up....
Regards,
OW
That's a good retention of value for 1.5 years and 13,000 miles.
Not when new ones were back up in the high $30k range. I don't mind losing a couple grand after a year or so on a PU truck. I have bought new and sold higher more than I have lost money. If you buy right and take the vehicle to a good market you can make money. Two of the GM trucks I bought in Seattle and sold in Alaska at a profit after about a year driving them. I don't like losing money. That is why I rarely will buy a car. Cars are a big loss out the gate.
You also have to take into consideration they only built 200 hybrid PU trucks for the CA market. Even then it was not a slam dunk sale. I advertised on Craigslist for nearly 6 months. Don't get me wrong. I was glad to sell at $23k. Just the horrible taxes and license in CA I had to absorb. That was a first for me. All my vehicles since 1970 were bought and licensed in Alaska. NO TAX and $30 per year license. I am having a real problem with the horrible taxes in this state of thug politicians.
No state in the UNION wastes more tax money than CA.
Now back to the regularly scheduled program.
November sales predictions are out:
Gas Prices and Heavy Incentives Keep Car Sales From Sinking Below October's Depths
A friend that was at the trial for Ted in DC told me it was a joke. That jury would have convicted Mother Teresa. And my friend is a dyed in the wool Democrat. Her dad was secretary of labor under Sheffield. She was there with a friend that was a witness for Ted Stevens. I guess Begich won so maybe they will call a mistrial and let Ted live out his years in peace.
Another tidbit. Latest poll says most people consider the Internet the Best source of news.
A Zogby Poll, commissioned by IFC, found 37.6% of those asked consider the Internets the most reliable source of news. 20.3% consider national TV news most reliable and 16% say radio is the most reliable source.
Also revealed:
• 39.3% of those surveyed trust FOX News most for the issues they consider most important, followed by CNN with 16% and MSNBC with 15%.
• 72.6% believe the news they read and see is biased.
• 88.7% Republican and 57.5% Democrat respondents describe the news media as biased.
Bought a 2005 GMC hybrid PU in June of 2005 when the family discounts were offered. This truck had lots of nice stuff. MSRP was $36k. I got it after a real haggle for $26k plus TTL. One and a half years later I decided I wanted an SUV and drove the 2007 Denali Yukon. I cannot remember the exact figures. It was over $40k. My PU was perfect and I had added an aluminum roll-top over he bed for $1300. This was the same dealer I bought the truck from. It had 13k highway miles and he offered me $16k in trade. I stood up and told him that was an insult to my intelligence and walked out. I listed it on Craigslist and a fellow from LA came down and gave me $23k cash for the truck. That kind of loss on a PU truck is horrible, and the worst I have ever had. The truck was not as solid as my 1998 Suburban. I did like the Stereo and climate control. That will probably be my last GM vehicle."
Let me understand your predicament: You were insulted when they offered you 16K in trade for your obsolete truck. Yet you weren't insulted when you practically "stole" it for 26k with the family pricing and all those discounts and then suckered an LA city slicker into paying 23k for it. A $1300.00 chrome roll bar should increase the trade value another 8k I would guess. Oh, and let's not forget the "highway miles". Just curious, how much better was the gas mileage over the conventional gas truck?
Just heard some of a rerun of Obama's press conference today. Sure sounds like he wants to give Detroit some money, just as soon as Detroit can come up with a justification for needing it.
So what's your point with Japan? Are you trying to imply something here?
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20081124/FREE/811249987
It's when he invokes the domestics' leadership on E85 that I call foul, but he goes on to promote some new ideas I haven't heard yet that might be a good alternative to a bankruptcy filing. Among them:
First, I would invest part of the Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) money in the automakers' captive finance companies at competitive rates securitized by the finance or lease paper. This will dramatically reduce incentive costs for the Detroit Three. It also will benefit consumers who are finding it difficult to get financing, even with good credit scores.
Second, I would enable the Detroit makers to draw against the $25 billion immediately to cover all investments they have made to date in green technology. That includes hybrid development, plug-in hybrids, EcoBoost, fuel cells and E85. This will keep them going until the next stage.
Third, take $250 billion of the TARP money that the current administration will not spend and invest it in the new Industrial Bank of America. This bank will have the mandate to rebuild our manufacturing base, including our auto industry, with the progressive application of green technology. It also will rebuild our power grid with solar, wind and wave technology; it has to be renewable.
I especially like the first and third points: a major financing base to promote development of alt power technology, as well as provide reliable, widely available credit for the industry and customers alike (this last is particularly crucial for GM now that it has lost control of GMAC). And the second point makes pulling the already approved $25 billion forward to repay them for investments they have already made seem almost sensible. I would imagine GM's cumulative investment in the Volt is substantial by this point. And Chrysler's in electric cars? And Ford with its own hybrids and EcoBoost?
After the three main points the author goes off on a flight of fancy about how he would manage the restructuring of healthcare in America - yes that one is mostly pie in the sky. Fixing healthcare for the domestics and EVERYONE aint gonna be as easy as all that. But then he writes this:
Look at selling off certain brands, such as Volvo and Saab. Close Hummer. Buick is a highly successful brand in China, so try to get investment from China in that brand.
Develop specific consumer missions for all of the brands; this will help sales in brand-conscious areas such as California
And maybe there could be a couple more brands gone between GM and Ford...
He makes an emotional appeal for supporting and rejuvenating the manufacturing sector in America, starting with the carmakers. Ultimately, one of the things one must decide in this whole bailout thing is how much one values domestic manufacturing in general, and whether it is worth spending a TON of money trying to save it.
But will a cash infusion save it? Global market forces with regard to labor costs dictate that the domestics will continue migrating all their production to Mexico and other low-cost Central American locales, don't they? I think it is inevitable unless they can somehow eliminate the UAW from existence entirely.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I have a problem with the last part of this statement. Mr. Wagoner even mentioned it during the grilling , I mean hearings. GM won't finance anyone with a score less than 700. Since when did they become so selective? The other part is I don't know who is having problems getting a loan with a good credit rating. Two of my sons just bought cars in the last month. One a loaded import made by Nissan's high line company and the other bought a pre-owned 7 year old sports car. Neither had a problem getting a loan. Both have excellent credit and the one that bought the used vehicle is only 23 years old but has a FICO score of 751, is about to graduate from college, has a full time job and pays his bills on time. His older brother ain't doing too bad either. Score is way over 7xx also and he is very fiscally responsible. So my point is the money is there for those that qualify for it.
As long as we're talking about the money being there ONLY if you qualify for it, I'm on board. But we have to stop loaning money to people who cannot pay it back. There are always going to be changing circumstances that cause defaults on some loans. We don't have to increase that number by creating loans that have little or no chance of being paid off from the outset.
What kind of companies do these guys run that they can't afford to fly to DC? :shades:
Speaking of images, GM ended its 9 year endorsement deal, estimated at $7.5 per year, with Tiger Woods.
Mark Steinberg, Woods's agent, said Woods had been impressed with the way Buick transformed its image, doing away with stodgier models and releasing more updated cars.
“We saw that it was going to work,” Steinberg said. “We saw what Buick wanted to do with their brand.”
Saw that it was going to work? Buick sales in the US were down 54% from 2000 to 2007 and the average age of a Buick sedan purchaser is 66.
Perhaps someone will impulse purchase a $200 pair of sneakers based on a celebrity endorsement. Not so sure it works that way with a $30,000 vehicle.
If you consider a year and a half old PU truck obsolete. The dealer was offering me low book on a full priced Denali. That is an insult to my way of thinking. I proved the value of the truck by finding a buyer willing to pay a decent though not what I would consider a great price for the truck. It was not a roll bar. It was a locking rollup bed cover. The truck was always garaged and did not have a single scratch. It did not get near the mileage EPA suggests. It did much better on a trip through NM and CO. Highest was 22 MPG. Around San Diego I averaged about 16.5 MPG.
By the way I got $16,500 for my 7.5 year old Suburban that cost me $35k in 1998.
It all adds up to the deterioration of GM from the dealers all the way to the CEO. Bailing them out is throwing good money after bad. I feel bad for those that bought GM stock at $75 and now it is worth about $3.50.
Even the Accord loses over $4k in depreciation in year 1.
I could have had an Impala for a price that would have virtually made depreciation a non-factor.
Nobody pays MSRP, that's just the number that would give GM a viable business plan
Well, my Dad's 2003 Regal, purchased used in September 2003, was $10,995. With tax, tags, an extended warranty to ease his mind, and EVERYTHING, the out-the-door price was $12,840.
Now this was just the LS model with the regular 3.8 V-6, so it wasn't supercharged. Also, no leather, no sunroof, plastic wheelcovers.
To this day, we still don't know why the car was so cheap. It had 19,500 miles on it when Dad bought it, and we knew it had been a rental car, because of some paperwork in the glovebox. The build date on the doorjamb sticker was June 2002, so this car was a very early '03, but still, an '03. That was 5 years ago, and nothing of any interest has gone wrong with the car. I'd imagine that if it was hiding any problems, they would have surfaced by now.
My only guess is that the dealership had the car on their lot for awhile, and just wanted it cleared out to make room for something else.
I remember they also had a steel blue 2002 Intrepid parked next to the Regal on the lot, for $8995. It had around 39,500 miles on it, and was a base model with the 2.7. Basically, the same car as my 2000 Intrepid. While I have a preference for the Intrepid, I think the Regal was definitely worth the $2,000 price premium. If nothing else, to get a year newer car with 20,000 fewer miles on it. The Regal was also better equipped, having ABS, an oil life monitor, tire pressure monitor, torquier engine, etc.
I remember telling my Dad that if he didn't buy that Regal, I would!
Oh, as for MSRP, IIRC a 2003 Regal LS stickered for around $26K. But, like you said, nobody pays MSRP. I guess it probably would've sold for more like $21-22K?
Alex Taylor III writes:
Wagoner's biggest flaw may be that he has been too forgiving. Here is a company that has lost more than $72 billion in the past four years, and yet you can count on one hand the number of executives who have been reassigned or lost their job. After spending $1 billion to shut down Oldsmobile, Wagoner has allowed GM's other weak divisions to live on despite their fading resonance in the marketplace. (A competitor says Wagoner is "too fundamentally decent" to cut off dealerships and put their employees on the street. GM says closing divisions isn't cost-effective.)
Nonetheless, the dedication and thoughtfulness that Wagoner communicated, along with measurable signs of progress (growth in foreign markets, successful new products, continued payroll reductions) prompted me to produce a skein of optimistic, if hedged, stories about the company. I should have taken to heart the analysis of Fortune's Carol Loomis, who saw bankruptcy looming for GM some three years ago. But after my most recent piece suggesting that a real turnaround was at hand, I finally ran out of patience. The company had been caught totally off guard by the spike in oil prices and possessed no backup plan when truck sales cratered and destroyed GM's business model for North America. Despite hopeful pronouncements, Delphi, its former parts division and now an independent company, took another turn for the worse and sank deeper into bankruptcy.
If Washington wants to bail out GM, it's fine with me. A lot of short-term angst will be avoided, and taxpayer money has been spent for worse purposes. But you have to wonder whether the insular, self-absorbed culture that still dominates GM is up to the job of restructuring the company quickly enough to make it profitable and competitive again. GM has been on a downward path ever since I began covering it. What is going to make it different this time? As painful as bankruptcy may be, it would give GM the leverage it needs to redo its labor contracts and dealer franchise agreements, downsize the company, recruit new management, and position itself for an economic upturn in 2010 that would enable it to regain some fraction of its former glory.
Once again, boys might even dream of becoming chairman of General Motors
http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/21/magazines/fortune/taylor_generalmotors.fortune/i- ndex.htm?postversion=2008112508
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/At-rate-government-need-a/story.aspx?guid=- %7B6F4AF0CA%2D9A05%2D4E38%2D9D82%2DD8E1D22739E2%7D&dist=SecMostRead
We must be very careful how we spend $, to use it only in the most critical of spots. I always question how Congress spends $ on some of their projects and then says they don't have $ to fund healthcare, and help injured veterans and such.
Invite the workers back.....I wonder what the GM management contingency planning is thinking about this. Will all workers, former UAW and engineers, have to fill out job applications after a Chapter 11? Will managers also have to reapply? What are chances of hot-head union guys being rehired? Will Democrats have passed card-check law that would allow former UAW workers to quickly rejoin union? Will Congress require a new top managment team and new Board?
Would favor some type of modest loan to help bridge GM through a pre-packaged Chapter 11 and with some kind of assurance from GM to drop brands, models, dealers.
1. gas stay at $1.75 a gallon, where it belongs.
2. The economy snaps back to normal, because underlying the fundamentals are good.
3. Continue to fight the union for concessions by threatening and executing plant closings.
4. Continue evolving product lines as they already have. I'm perfectly content with the new Malibu if I want to get 30 mpg hwy in a 170 HP car.
The Obama plan is based on the fundamentals being bad before Nov. 4th, and that they are good after Nov. 4th. So far, we are on plan. Obama just said we need a 2% of GDP injection to snap back to life. Kinda like America is Ironman, but has a bacteria infection that a few pills will cure.
The big question is, gas at $1.75 is a requirement of the economy snapping back. Will we allow the oil suppliers to destroy everything again, if it snaps back?
I think it's just as much a factor that they don't consider Detroit to be an important show any more. But I imagine it's also for cost-cutting. Automakers are focusing more on the LA show these days...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
If you take a minute to watch this amazing state of the art Ford plant in Brazil you will see what the Big 3 are capable of. Listen to the last few words too - Ford would love to build this plant in Detroit but the UAW won't allow it.
Ford Plant in Brazil
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Nissan pulled out of the Chicago auto show too, from what I've heard. I wonder if they're also going to pull out of the DC and Philly auto shows?
I think you should start reading a financial paper, if you think the underlying fundamentals of the economy are good! Many people have overspent for years, they've bought houses that are now worth 50%, or have seen no appreciation in 10 years, people have nothing to show for 10 years investing in 401K's ...
As the Obama team is now saying - we'll be lucky, very lucky, if we're out of recession in 2-3 years. Decades of bad decsions that got us in this situation - whether in the Big 3 or the economy, are not going to be fixed in a few months.
I think the Big3 will again get raked-over-the-coals if they come back to Congress with a few tweaks to their business-as-usual. They had better come back with a plan for a market of 10-12M vehicle sales and what realistic slice they have of that, what revenue they have from that, and what their total costs will be. And the bottom line better show they can make a profit!
If they come in with vehicle sales in 2009 will be 15M, and our marketshare will increase, but we'll still lose money because of pensions and wages, then they should be ushered to the door (or committed for wasting our time).
The Big3 need to plan for a very bad economy and how to make $; if the economy turns around then great they make more $. But we can not loan $25B now, and in summer '09 when that's gone, give them another $25B.
I am not responsible for what the Big3 or the unions got themselves into; they have never helped me, and therefore I see little reason to support them forever! :mad: Let them all get in a room, and decide what they will cut to start making money; they either decide to live in some matter or decide to hold their position and die!
All I can say is WOW. That is one impressive operation. Too bad it is not sitting in the USA.
Since they just introduced the 370Z, last year the GT-R and the Maxima, and the rest of their lineup is fairly new, maybe they just don't have anything left to redo. Their oldest products are the Xterra and Titan and maybe they decided not to invest in a redesign of those given the market for those vehicles.
It is also prudent not to waste money, BEFORE you get in trouble, rather then wait until you're months from bankruptcy to save $.
Those shows are geared to getting customers' butts behind the wheel, so that they will keep Brand X in mind when it comes time to buy a new vehicle. They aren't about unveiling new concept cars or production models to a national audience. I can't imagine that local Nissan dealers would want to be completely left out of that action.
In the best of years selling huge high margin SUVs, GM could not make 5% net profit. I would consider that a good reason to fold up the tent and go home. It looks like Ford has a plan. It probably will send more of their operations out of the USA. Will Ford's share of a bailout build factories in other countries like that beauty in Brazil?
GM’s Contribution to the U.S. Economy • Directly employs approximately 96,000 people • Has 6,500 dealers across the country who employ another 340,000 people • Provides pension benefits for nearly 475,000 retirees and spouses • Extends health care benefits to about 1,000,000 people • Purchased in 2007, $30 billion of goods and services from 2,000 suppliers in 46 states • Sold 22 million vehicles in the last five years that have more domestic-parts content than Honda and Toyota Learn more at gmfactsandfiction.com View a video at youtube.com/watch?v=72cHfOKoA1c
Changing for the Better • GM negotiated a landmark labor agreement with the UAW in 2007 that will enable us to match labor costs with foreign automakers by 2010 and virtually erase the competitive gap • 11 of GM’s last 13 new vehicle launches have been cars and crossovers, and 60% of our capacity will be dedicated to these vehicles by the end of 2010 • GM leads in manufacturing productivity in 11 out of the 20 North American segments in which it competes (2008 Harbour Report) and has 5 of the top 10 best rated engine plants in North America and the #1 transmission plant • In the 2008 J.D. Power Initial Quality Study, GM had more segment leaders than Toyota or Honda •GM have reduced warranty repairs by 40% over the last five years •GM is targeting fuel economy leadership in every class of vehicle we introduce and GM has 20 models that get at least 30 MPG highway, based on 2009 EPA estimates – that’s twice the number of our nearest competitor • GM is making a major commitment to hybrid cars and trucks and offers nine hybrids for 2009 • GM is a world leader in biofuel vehicles with more than 3 million flex-fuel vehicles on the road in the U.S. and has committed to make flex-fuel vehicles 50% of annual volume by 2012 •GM has established the world’s largest hydrogen fuel-cell test fleet here in the U.S. •GM is working to bring the Chevy Volt extended range electric vehicle to market by November 2010. Volt is designed to move 75% of America’s daily commuters without using a single drop of gas!
The other thing not mentioned by the previous posters is that Chicago and Detroit are both in the Midwest, a market largely devoted to domestic cars. I remember visiting Chicago and seeing many cars I had never seen even once here at home, except in pictures.
The bigger markets away from the Midwest are also much bigger markets for the imports, so it makes sense for them to concentrate show dollars there.
At this rate (we are up to what, six automakers not attending the Detroit show, all foreign?) the domestics will have the Detroit show all to themselves. But will they be able to afford a large presence there? It looks like they are not spending much on making it to the California shows this month.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Accounts for $690 billion, or about 20% of all U.S. retail sales
GM only accounts for about $150 billion so the others can pick up their share.
Those are all nice statistics about GM. You left out the most important one. GM lost $72 BILLION over the last 4 years. They have NO PLAN to pull out of that kind of loss. GM lost money the year Toyota had their most profit EVER. If GM could not make money in 2004-2006. How can they make money when the economy is in the toilet? Why prolong the agony and throw away your children's future?
I have written off my fair share of companies due to poor customer service or poor product buying experiences. Here are all of the companies I've written off for years now:
1) Chrysler (1995 Vehicle purchased in 1994.... probably wrote them off around 4 years later as I had tremendous warranty costs right after the 3 year 36K mile mark, and although I had a lot of warranty visits the first 3 years, I didn't write them off until the problems increased EXPONENTIALLY after warranty expiration; thanks Chrysler engineers; you got it JUST RIGHT with a perfect design to fail like clockwork AFTER the warranty expired. Good job, your design timing was better than Rolex! (Will go bankrupt in 2009 without 3rd bailout!)
2) Ford (guilty by association with Big 3) (Will go bankrupt in 2010 w/o bailout #2)?
3) GM (guilty by association with Big 3) Will go bankrupt by Xmas w/o bailout #2)?
4) AT&T (thriving despite being on the top 10 WORST lists of customer service)
5) Circuit City (Filed for Bankruptcy recently; good riddance! middle finger is appropriate to their workers!)
6) Best Buy (Thriving despite terrible Customer Service reviews; probably because Good Guys, Tweeter, and others have gone out of business first).
7) Insurance Agent: Eastwood Insurance (criminals)
8) Insurance Company: Bristol West (criminals)
9) Insurance Underwriter: Coast National Insurance (associated with above)
Based on the list above, I think I have a good knack for hating/avoiding/writing-off companies that are doomed to fail. Inevitable failure; just a matter of time. Oh yeah, Bank of America almost made the list above, but they did finally settle after a few letters going up the chain.
Companies that honored their product by honoring warranties, contracts, terms, and conditions, and even display exemplary service by extending warranties when needed; free of charge; demonstrated a willingness to care about retaining a customer: (I'd DEFINITELY BUY from these companies again).
1) Honda (thriving)
2) Sony (but they have 1 strike; still good).
3) Audi (best car to date in every way)
4) Kenwood (fixed my car stereo 6 months after warranty expired)
5) Mercury Insurance (pays out on claims; what a novelty for an insurance company).
6) Cox Cable (good phone and cable service, good customer service, but is getting pricey!)
7) Toyota (based on relatives and friends' insanely reliable experiences)
8) Crutchfield Electronics
Above are the reasons GM is broke. They don't have the market share nor the gross profit margins to support those numbers.
The answer is easy, the formula to get there is not.
I really don't care what percentage of GDP GM sales are or how many jobs will be lost if they close up. Like Gagrice said, GM has lost billions upon billions. They have to have a plan that allows GM to earn a profit when U.S. sales are going to stay in the 10-12 million range for the foreseeable future.
Finally! Agreed! No money to the Big 3 then! It's FINAL!
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
I despise:
1. Circuit city for what they did to their experienced employees a few years ago. Fired them, hired greenpeas, offered jobs to the older folks at reduced wages. Hmmpf! I have never bought anything there since that happened. I feel bad for the employees that were let go. This accounted for nothing more than age discrimination if you ask me. Looks like they are about to close a bunch of stores. Serves them right.
2 At$t horrible customer service. Charged me phone and internet service in a residence I no longer occupied even after I called to cancel service one month prior to moving. One year of money down the drain taken by those thieves.
3. GM, mom had a 67 Chevy Nova. Worst POS we've ever owned. Would die in the middle of traffic, smoked like a chimney, and was never fixed. She ended up trading it on a Ford Galaxie 500.
The good:
1. Sony. Had one bad experience with a store but not Sony's fault. Sony stepped up to repair tv after I wrote to Sony USA president. Came home and picked up tv, fixed and been happy as a pig in slop after numerous Sony products.
2. Nissan, Honda, Toyota, not necessarily in that order. All three brands have given us excellent service. Most have over 150k miles and still going.
3. Directv, great service. It's a GM owned company but you wouldn't know.
4. Crutchfield, I'm with you on this one. I've been a loyal customer of them for over 20 years. Their products may be more expensive than the rest of the bunch but their service and tech support is second to none.
No loan for them.
I don't feel bad for them. Investing in GM in the last 30 years was crazy and stupid to begin with, but this is just insane:
After your investment falls 33% or more, they should have jumped ship and sold at $50 a share if they bought at $75/share. It's called cut your losses and RUN.
Holding onto a bad investment that can only get worse is insane, and I don't feel sorry for insanely idiotic people.
How about selling at 25 a share and accepting 66% loss? Now they have to sell at 0.01 or I'm not buying!