Lease Questions - Ask Here

rover06

Car_man can you give me the money factor and residual for 2006 Range Rover?

hweaver

I understand, that actually was not my question, the "11 mths left" question.
I do have an oddy.
You are right, that is the advice HONDA gave me, I think it's not a good idea either, but good for them, hey?
:mad:
Since I am not sure of miles, I may just buy if I get an 05' piolet EX L with DVD, which I was looking at leasing. Honda said that they are doing 1.9 or 2.9 % apr for 60 mths (she could not say which for legal reasons) for memorial day; last "big" holiday before 06's come out.
For that and the 1k BELOW the invoice of 30,900 so 29,900 they agreeded to over the phone and 1k I have equidy in the van (bought) I may just buy.
The payments will be $20 more than my current buy. then when I trade (truely trade) in 3 yrs, I'll have equidy and low miles (I always keep them low) I should have money down for a downpayment towards a new one.
Heidi

drspence

Car Man - Can you tell me if the money factor and residual for a 24 month lease of a 2005 9-3 Linear is the same as the Arc? Saab Financial is advertising a promotional 24 mo. lease on the Linear with a mf of .0002 and residual of 59%. Is this different for the Arc?

sp976

I want to take advantage of Nissan's lease deal on a 2005 Nissan Murano SL w/Touring package. The advertised deal of $359/36months seems pretty good. MSRP is #35660 and cap cost is $32147. My wife has a 2001 VW Beetle GLX with a trade-in value of around $10K and we owe $4K. The question I have is do you think a dealer would cut us a check for 6K and allow us to make the initial lease payment of $2000 from this. This way we pocket around $4000. Will they go for this? Or will they demand the tade-in be used as a cap-cost reduction?

dwynne

$37,470 sounds like the base MDX? $35,200 sounds like a decent price, but invoice is $33,811 so still lots of profit there. carsdirect.com for the ATL area comes up with $35,070, so not a lot lower than your price.

I think the buy rate is 0.00178, so the dealer is marking up the lease rate by .24% IF they are actually rolling the deposit into the cap cost.. If they are waving the security deposit, then it is normal for AHFS for an extra 0.0001 on the MF. Check to see which it is.

The residual sounds right for a 3/36k lease and the dealer can't change it anyway.

If I plug $35,200, $23,606, and36, and 0.00188 into my lease calc I get a payment of $433.20 per month. That would be with you paying first payment and lease acquisition fee at signing, and does not include tax.

I think in NY they figure the tax based on payment, so $433.20 x 36 * 8.25% = $1,286.71 in tax due. If I add this back into the cap cost I come up with $471.37 per month.

The acquisition fee elsewhere is less, but I think in NY it is $1k or a little more, so it sounds like your out of pocket is paying first month and the fee. So the payment sounds about right based on what info you provided.

Dennis

dwynne

If they will do the Pilot EX-L w/DVD for $29,900 AND give you more than you owe for the Ody (and it is a fair price VS what the van is worth) AND will finance it for 60 months for 1.9% or 2.9% AND the payments end up being not much more than your Ody payments, then it sounds OK to me.

The promo lease on Pilots is a pretty decent one (about 3.28%), but if they offer promo financing as well - and it is less - then nothing wrong with taking that option.

Dennis

dwynne

Note that $32,147 includes the $550 (most states) acquisition fee, so you would be paying $31,597 for the truck. The deal calls for $1,640 from you for cap cost reduction, so the actual selling price is $33,237 .

With the invoice at $32,554 on this truck, you may be able to get CLOSER to this number WITHOUT putting that much down. You should negotiate the price of the truck down just like you were paying cash, and I would think the dealer would/could get closer to this number just by bargaining. Then tell them you want to do the lease and end up with less money out of pocket plus the acq fee and first month out of pocket and still have the low payment. Don't forget it does not include tax, which varies from state to state.

These promo deals normally have a good amount of profit for the dealer in them. If you negotiate a lower price then you cut down on how much out of pocket you pay. You can also pay nothing as a cap cost reduction if you want, the payment will be higher. They just do these deals to have a nice sounding number "$359 a month" with some money off the truck and some money out of your pocket. You can try to get more off the truck and then pay nothing out of pocket, if you want.

As to your current car, you could either get the dealer to buy it for cash, sell it to another dealer (like CarMax), or sell it yourself - for more money. In most states there is no tax credit for a trade in a on new lease, so your most money should come from a private sale. If you do sell it to the dealer, you should take the difference back from them - don't roll it into the new lease.

Dennis

alexi1

CarMan, Can you please provide current lease deals for BMW X3 2.5 and Nissan Murano SL AWD. I am interested in minimum mileage allowance and for 36, 48 or even 60 months. Also, are there any special financing deals on the two cars at this time? Thank you..

CarMan@Edmunds

I am glad that you enjoy this discussion so much, jonnyjazz. If you can lease a 2005 Honda Accord for $500 below the invoice price that is listed here at Edmunds.com, you are getting a good deal. Most Honda dealers will receive in the neighborhood of $400 to $600 through the dealer stairstep program that is running on Accords this month, so this money is already being taken into account in the price that you were quoted. American Honda Finance Corp.'s 3 year, 15,000 miles per base lease money factor for a 2005 Accord 4-cylinder Sedan is currently .00112 and its residual value is 52%. The 12,000 miles per year residual value for this car would be 2% higher. You are right, AHFC's base lease acquisition fee is currently $595 in most states. This fee is charged on every lease and cannot be waived. You can get out of paying it at lease signing by adding it to your car's capitalized cost though. Let me know if you have any other questions.

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CarMan@Edmunds

Welcome conanc. Since you are new to the world of leasing, you definitely should check out the following informative articles that are available here at Edmunds.com prior to visiting any dealers: 10 Steps to Leasing a New Car and Calculate Your Own Lease Payment.

I would be more than happy to give you my opinion on the leases that you were quoted, but in order for me to do so I need you to tell me these cars' full MSRPs. This info is important for two reasons. It enables me to see how much of a discount you are being given and one cannot calculate lease payments without it.

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CarMan@Edmunds

Hey jonnyjazz. Here is the information that you are looking for. If you were to lease a 2005 Nissan Maxima SL through Nissan Motor Acceptance Corp. right now for 36 months with 15,000 miles per year, its base lease money factor and residual value should be .00157 and 53%, respectively. The residual value for a lease with only 12,000 miles per year would be 1% higher. When negotiating your lease on this Maxima, keep in mind that Nissan is providing $500 lease cash on it this month.

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CarMan@Edmunds

You're welcome, a6_to_m35. As a family man myself, I can certainly understand why you needed to go with the allroad. It is fun to drive and has a surprising amount of room. Audi was providing $500 lease cash on 2005 A4 1.8T Cabriolets last month, but like many manufacturers it has cut back on its support on convertibles as the summer months approach. This lease cash is no longer available in May. The only incentives that are currently available on the 2005 A4 Cabriolet are lease support and 2.9% financing for 3 years and 4.9% for 4 to 5 years. The lease money factor and residual value that you were quoted for this car are right on the money. I come up with a zero down, pre-tax monthly payment of around $723 on this car, which as you said is a lot of money. A4s and A6s really don't lease well right now. I think that Audi will inevitably have to increase its lease support on these models, it remains to be seen just how long they hold out before doing so.

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CarMan@Edmunds

You're welcome shackman. I'm not surprised that you were not able to find any independent banks that are willing to lease this car right now. Perhaps as hybrid technology becomes more popular things will change.

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CarMan@Edmunds

You're very welcome, cadderly. If you were to lease a 2005 Infiniti G35 Coupe through Infiniti Financial Services right now for 36 months with 12,000 miles per year, its base lease money factor and residual value should be .00199 and 60%, respectively. The numbers for an otherwise identical 48 month lease should be .00202 and 50%, respectively. I am not personally all that familiar with what the market is like for this car in your neck of the woods right now, but you may be able to find out what it is selling for by visiting the following discussion: "Infiniti G35: Prices Paid & Buying Experience".

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CarMan@Edmunds

Hey ct121. Audi actually decided to extend its May lease program, which for some strange reason was initially scheduled to expire mid-month May 31st. If you were to lease a 2005 Audi A6 3.2 quattro Sedan through Audi Financial Services right now for 2 years with 15,000 miles per, its base lease money factor and residual value should be .00110 and 64%, respectively. The numbers for an otherwise identical 3 year lease should be .00110 and 53%. If you were to lease a 2006 Infiniti M35 Sedan through Infiniti Financial Services for 3 years with 15,000 miles per, its base lease money factor and residual value should currently be .00214 and 74%. The numbers for an otherwise identical 3 year lease should be .00222 and 63%.

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CarMan@Edmunds

You are correct, vector6. By zero down, I meant no capitalized cost reduction. Even with a lease that you do not make a down payment on, you still would have to pay your vehicle's first month's payment, a security deposit equivalent to that payment rounded up to the nearest $25 or $50 increment, the bank's acquisition fee, and any required state taxes or fees at lease signing.

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CarMan@Edmunds

Hey Cyn. Only $500 off of this van's MSRP is a little on the expensive side, however you are in Hawaii where vehicles are always much more expensive than they are in the continental U.S., so that actually might not be that bad. You never mentioned how long this lease is for so I can't work up a sample payment for you, but I can tell you that American Honda Finance Corp.'s current base lease money factor for the 2005 Odyssey is .00245 for 33 top 39 month leases.

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CarMan@Edmunds

You are very fortunate that you are leasing the car that was in the accident instead of actually owning it, Tim. One of the beautiful things about leasing is that if your leased vehicle is involved in an accident, as long as it has been repaired properly, you can return it at lease-end and let the bank take the hit for its diminished value. I'm not sure if you would have been able to get any money out of the individual who hit your vehicle if the incident had occurred in Maryland, but if you hold onto your leased vehicle until the scheduled end of your lease like most people do (it is usually very expensive to get out of leases early) then you don't have anything to worry about.

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CarMan@Edmunds

I have seen the lease program for the vehicle that you are interested in, adi4runner. However in order for me to give you an idea of what it is like, I need you to tell me how long you want to lease it for and how many miles per year you need to be able to drive it.

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CarMan@Edmunds

Hi leaseshopper. Given the fact that this is such a new model, I suspect that the 2006 BMW 325i is still selling at fairly close to full MSRP. Make sure to stop by the "BMW 3-Series: Prices Paid & Buying Experience" discussion to speak with other community members who have either recently purchased this car or who are in the market for one to see what sort of prices they have seen it going for lately. BMW Financial Services' base lease money factor for the 2006 325i is currently .00255 for leases up to 42 months in length. Vehicles' residual values vary depending upon how long you lease them for and how many miles per year you are allowed to drive them. If you let me know these numbers, I can tell you what this car's residual value should be. Residual value percentages are always based upon a percentage of vehicles' full MSRPs, including destination charges, plus the MSRPs of any options that can be fully residualized.

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Jaynj1

Hello Car_man,

I am looking at A8L with MSRP about $73000 ( with options ). What is the current
residual value/ lease money factor for 42 month lease?
Thanks.

reechz

Local Nissan dealer on Long island is offering $1000 down and about $200 per month for a 24 month (2 year lease) on a nissan altima.
Wouldn't a two year lease make more sense for the customer than a three year? what's the advantage for the dealer (especially with a low down payment)?

paulyballs

Hi CarMan,

Can you give me the residual value and money factor for the Acura TSX current MSRP around 27K. This would be for a 15K mile / 36 month lease.

Thanks,

Paul

apress12

car man

what do you think of the current lease offer from nissan. it includes a 1500 deposit. i would be putting zero down and 16k miles a year. does the residual and money factors look on target or are they sweetened at all?

davidd3

Car_Man,

I also expected closer to MSRP for the 2006 3-Series. But from reading posts in BMW forums, I saw that one person got a discount of $750 while another person got a discount of $1,250. So I took $1,000 as the average expected discount, though I accept that this figure could be way off based on only 2 pieces of data. I look forward to more posts in the future about actual prices paid for the new 3.

In the meantime, as a worst case scenario, let's assume that the lease will be based on the full MSRP of $36,945. The details are as follows:

30,300 base price
695 desitination charge
1,275 automatic transmission
2,900 premium package
500 heated seats
800 zenon headlights
475 metallic paint
-----------
$36,945

I intend to lease for 3 years. However, I need more than the usual included mileage. Actually, I need a customized lease which will include 18,500 miles per year or 55,500 miles over the 3-year lease term. (I might try to live with 50,000 miles, mindful of BMW's warranty.)

Could you let me know what the residual should be on that, be it for either 50,000 or 55,500 miles?

If it may matter, I live in Goldens Bridge, NY.

Also, could you give me a ballpark idea of what my resulting monthly payment should be if I make no cap cost reduction and if I roll the sales tax (7.5%) and any fees (acquisition fee, etc.) into the lease? As you can see, I want to structure the lease so that I pay as I go. If I pay thousands of dollars up front (cap cost reduction, acquisition fee, sales tax, etc.) to reduce the monthly payment, I am afraid that I may get burned in the event that the car is stolen or totaled. I assume that the insurance will pay off the lease and I will probably recoupe little or nothing of what I paid up front to reduce the monthly payment. However, it does seem as though most folks cough up a lot of money at the front end of leases. Is my thinking sound? Please comment.

mgz2400

Hi Car Man, can you give me an opinion on this Saab 9-3, (manual) 3yr/36000 mile lease. No other options are included.

MSRP: 27,570
Sale Price: 26,673
Res. % 47%
Money Fact. 0.00054
Lease Assistance 3500
Adj Cap Cost 23173
Residual 12957.90
Month Pay. 321.46

First month payment is 1473.36 which is made up of:
Lic, title, doc 203.20
acq. fee + tax 948.70
first month pay 321.46

3boy

Hi, Car Man. I am also looking for a 2006 BMW 325i. What is the residual for a 36 month lease at 12K miles per year?

Also, do you know which of these options can be fully residualized?
- Metallic paint $475
- Premium package $2900
- Auto $1275
- Heated front seats $500
- Xenon headlamps $800

Thanks in advance.

CarMan@Edmunds

Hey heidi. You may be able to find a dealer out there that is willing to lease you a Honda Pilot at invoice, but I suspect that $500 over or so is a more reasonable target. While it is late in the model year, the Pilots are not distressed merchandise. They are selling very well and do not currently have any sort of cash incentives available on them. For more feedback on what others have recently paid for similar trucks, you may want to stop by the following discussion (sorry if I am repeating myself, I don't remember if I gave you this link earlier): "Honda Pilot: Prices Paid & Buying Experience". It is difficult to say whether Honda will provide a similar level of lease support on the 2006 Pilot when it hits dealers. Honda may ease back a little on its lease support on this truck early on, but I suspect that it will be back to providing a similar level of lease support very quickly.

Let's calculate a sample lease payment on the truck that you are interested in for you so that you have an idea of what you will have to pay to lease one right now. According to my calculations, if you were to lease a 2005 Honda Pilot EX-L with the rear entertainment system, an MSRP of $34,338 (including destination), and a selling price of $31,437 ($30,422 invoice + $515 destination + $500) through American Honda Finance Corp. right now for 36 months with 12,000 miles per year, your zero down, pre-tax monthly payment should be around $382.

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CarMan@Edmunds

Hi fstlrnr. Nissan Motor Acceptance Corp.'s current base lease money factor and residual value for a 48 month, 15,000 miles per year lease of a 2005 Titan Crew Cab LE 2WD should be .00149 and 41%, respectively. This money factor assumes that you are paying a security deposit equivelent to your truck's monthly payment rounded up to the nearest $25 increment and NMAC's acquisition fee of $550 (in most states) at lease signing. Using these numbers, an MSRP of $32,980, and a selling price of $29,333.42, I come up with a 48 month, 15,000 miles per year zero down, pre-tax monthly payment of around $394. With a $3,000 capitalized cost reduction, your truck's lease payment would drop to around $327. If only $2,000 of the money that you want to pay at lease signing is a cap cost reduction and the rest goes to cover things like the first month's payment security deposit, acquisition fee, etc... your monthly payment should be around $349. Security deposits and acquisition fees are required by banks on most leases and are not negotiable. You can often have the waived in exchange for a higher lease payment, but that runs counter to your desire for the lowest possible monthly payment.

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CarMan@Edmunds

You're very welcome, jmcd0. Welcome to the wonderful world of leasing. Vehicles' residual values are based upon a percentage of their full MSRPs, including destination charges, plus the portion of any options that can be residualized. Gap insurance is a good thing to have on leases. It protects you in the event that your leased vehicle is totaled for insurance purposes, but your insurance company's settlement does not cover the full amount of money that you still owe on your lease. Many banks include gap insurance free of charge in all of their leases. Make sure to check to see if this is the case with the car or truck that you are interested in leasing.

Invoice minus any available incentives is a good price for a Subaru Outback. It is difficult to say why the payment that you were quoted for the Outback that you are interested in is higher than the ones that you have seen in ads. If you let me know what the full MSRP and selling prices of the vehicle that you want are, along with how long you want to lease it for and how many miles per year you need to be able to drive it, I can work up a sample lease payment that you can compare to the one that you were quoted.

Subaru's current lease program on the Outback is scheduled to run through June 30th, so it doesn't really matter if you lease one this month or next, though dealers usually seem to be a little more willing to negotiate at the end of the month.

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CarMan@Edmunds

Jonnyjazz, the $1,250 customer cash that Nissan is currently providing on the 2005 Maxima cannot be used on leases through NMAC. However, Nissan is providing a $500 cash incentive that can be. Make sure to take the $500 into account during your negotiations.

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CarMan@Edmunds

Hi paulyballs. Here is the info that you are looking for. If you were to lease a 2005 Volvo S40 T5 FWD through Volvo FInance right now for 36 months with 15,000 miles per year, its base lease money factor and residual value should be .00185 and 49%, respectively.

If you were to lease a 2005 Acura TSX without navigation through American Honda Finance Corp. right now for 36 months with 15,000 miles per year, its base lease money factor and residual value should be .00240 and 57%, respectively.

Good luck in your hunt for a new car and please let me know if you have any other questions.

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CarMan@Edmunds

No problem, lucas2. The highest mileage allowance that Infiniti Financial Services publishes residual values for is 15,000 miles per year. If you need to drive more than this you will have to purchase additional miles on a per-mile basis. It is less expensive to do so at lease signing than it is to wait until lease-end and have to pay an excess mileage penalty. Unfortunately, I do not know exactly how much money IFS charges for each mile over 15,000 at lease signing. The F&I person or possibly the salesperson at the dealership that you are working with should know the answer to this question. The zero down, pre-tax monthly payment for a 39 month, 15,000 miles per year lease of a 2006 Infiniti M35 AWD with an MSRP of $51,830 and a selling price of $48,588 should currently be around $603. You just need to make sure that the additional 5,000 miles per year is factored into your lease.

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CarMan@Edmunds

Hey gperr. Mazda is not currently providing any sort of lease support on the 2005 Miata. I have not seen what its standard lease program for it is like, but I suspect that it is not very good. There is a very good chance that you would be bale to lease one for less through an independent bank that you would be able to through Mazda's captive finance company. I can tell you that Mazda is currently providing $750 dealer cash on the '05 Miata. Make sure to take this incentive into account during your negotiations.

If you do end up leasing this car through Mazda credit, the last time that I saw it, its base lease acquisition fee was $475.

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adi4runner

It would be a 36 month, 15k a year lease. Through the VW supplier program I would be paying invoice on the Touareg V6 (no options). I also get the $500 discount for leasing another VW.

Thanks in advance

CarMan@Edmunds

Hello hpowders. As one might expect with such a new car that has been well received by the public, Lexus is not currently providing any sort of lease support on the 2006 GS 430. As a result, if you were to lease one through its captive finance company, Lexus Financial Services, you would have to use its standard lease money factor. The last time that I saw its standard factors, they were around .00245 for any length lease for consumers who qualify for its Tier 1+ credit tier. If you were to lease a 2006 Lexus GS 430 through Lexus Financial Services right now for 36 months with 12,000 miles per year, residual value should be around 58%.

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hpowders

Thank you so much Car_Man for the info. om the GS430.
I will need the residual and money factor for an Infinity M35(non-sport) with journey package for 36 months, 36,000 miles in the Tampa area. I think there is a better leasing deal to be had with the M than the GS430.
Thank you.
hpowders

kulotta

How does the leasing prices work when you have a car that you need to trade-in?

dwynne

The largest hit of depreciation is the first year. So NORMALLY a 2 yr lease is just too expensive, while a 3 yr lease gives and extra year to spread out the depreciation.

In the case of the Altima lease, it is just a special promo deal they are running to move cars. The money factor is really low (it was under 1/2 % at one point) and the residual is artificially high. The new result is that you can lease one cheap right now.

If you work with an aggressive Nissan dealer, you should be able to get them to discount the Altima enough to cover most, if not all, of the cap cost reduction called for in the lease. Then you get $200 a month + tax with almost nothing out of pocket.

So if the deal is right, it would make more sense to do a 2 year lease - but the only way it gets this "right" is for the manufacturer to make a special deal.

Dennis

dwynne

06 325i should be 0.00255 and 63% for 36/36k.

On BMW leases all factory options can be included in the residual calculations as well as the destination charge - so just add it up and take 63% to get your residual in dollars. Note that most BMW dealers are marking up the money factor and the acquisition fee ($625) for extra profit.

The new 3 looks to be a nice car, but I would wait until it has been out for a while before I would consider one. Just ask the folks that got the new 5 a couple of years back how that worked out for them.

Dennis

dwynne

Last number I saw was:

0.00171 and 62% for the M35 for 36/36k.

Both the GS and the M are nice cars. Someone posted better luck with discounts on the GS300 than the GS430. Did you look into that? The M35 does have a good bit more power than the GS300, however.

Dennis

hpowders

Thanks a lot for the quick response Dennis! I'm going nuts with all the possibilities!

dwynne

You work the deal just like you are paying cash.

Negotiate a low price on the new car - working up from invoice and knowing the dealer incentives and customer rebates.

Then work the deal for your trade getting the best you can.

Then make sure the dealer gives you the "buy rate" on the lease.

Note that if you have a lot equity in your trade it is probably better to get the dealer to give you a check for that and NOT put that much extra into the lease.

Also not that in most states there is NO tax advantage in trading in a car, so you could realize more money selling it online or through a local paper than trading it to the dealer. If you demand a "wholesale" price on the new car, then the dealer will only give you "wholesale" for your trade.

Dennis

dwynne

Let us know how you make out. The GS, the M, and the RL are all on my "list" of possible next cars.....

Dennis

cidchris

Thanks Dennis.

Do you know the MF and residual for 36/36k lease?

FYI - for the 36/45k lease dealer did mark-up the MF to .00165. I challenged him on this, i'll wait and see what he comes back with. Interestingly, he has become very slow to respond since.

Thanks again!

leaseshopper

Thanks so much for you help! Here is the deal the dealership is offering. I would appreciate your opinion.

MSRP: 34,665
Sale price: 34,000
Money factor: .00295 (tells me this is ok since the it's made up in higher residual value)
Residual Value: 64% of MSRP
Disp Fee 350.00 (only if I don't go with another BMW)
Doc Fee: 399.00 (this seems high to me)
Acq fee: 825.00 (this also seems very high to me)
36 mo lease w/.20 for extra miles unless I buy them early at .15
includes gap insurance

Car is a manual with premimum package. Thanks!

hpowders

Hey Dennis.
The dealer accepted my offer(through e-mailing me) several posts back on the X5 4.4 at $2000 over invoice($2458 off of MSRP) but with today's high gas prices and the large number of X5's sitting on his lot, I could have probably gotten it for $1000 over.
What is attractive is he would take my 325 off my hands because I have broken even on equity.
My lease is over August 2nd. I am about to pay for June, so it amounts to one more payment and my security deposit plus not having to wait 'til August 2nd.
So I'm debating whether to call him or not. My wife and I both like the vehicle.
I suppose what's really holding me back is I drove the GS430 recently and want it more than the X5.

dwynne

The MF should be the same for a 36/36k or a 36/45k lease - 0.00125 . The residual will change from 58% to 60% (61% if you could do 36/30k).

They are marking it up almost a full point, that is just not right

Dennis

dwynne

Bad dealer, no biscuit!

First, they are only giving you paltry $665 off of full price.

Second, they are marking up the lease money factor by nearly a full point (buy rate is 0.00255) to over 7% !

Third they are marking up the acquisition fee from $625 to $825

Fourth they are charging you $400 to do the paperwork on the deal (after gouging you on everything else).

Fifth they lied to you about the residual - that IS the right residual to go with the 0.00255 MF). the dealer can't change that.

If you really want to get this car, I would try to find another dealer. You can also look at leasecompare.com . They will do the lease for 0.00210 and 59%, $795 acquisition fee, and $99 doc fee. Compare the numbers, I am thinking would be cheaper to do a 3rd party lease than submit to the dealers games. They can also keep you from paying the dealer's $399 doc fee as well.

Dennis

dwynne

That would be a good price, I think. You have to watch the BMW dealers since they will mark up the MF, mark up the acquisition fee, charge you a hefty doc fee, and TRY to rip you off on the trade Seriously, just make sure they will give you close to buy rate on the lease and no other markups.

If the X5 4.4i was classified as a truck, you would be paying a "gas guzzler" fee on it too - looks like EPA is 16/22 and like all BMWs requires premium. I think that is about what the EPA was on my M5 and I get 14-15mpg on premium around town (ouch).

If was shopping the GS I don't think I would be happy with an X5 - I mean that is apples and oranges. I would look at the old 3 (>$4k in dealer money on the 330i sedan), maybe the new 5, the new Infiniti M, the new RL, and the GS. The GS has a really small back seat - little leg room and the sloping roof cuts into head room. "They say" it is larger than the old GS but I am not too sure. If you can get by with a small back seat then you don't need an X5. The GS numbers are not a lot better, though - 18/25mpg for the 430 but 22/30mpg for the RWD GS. I reset the economy meter in the GS300 I test drove and between the salesman and me wailing on it was on 22mpg when we got back to the dealership (with no freeway driving) - impressive.

I would get what you want - or something close to it. Go look at the others, I am betting the RL folks will deal more, then the M folks, and maybe the Lexus folks if you can stand a "lowly" GS300.

Dennis