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Dude, where did all the dealerships go?

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Comments

  • joem5joem5 Member Posts: 201
    Built to break?You mean planned obsolesence. :shades:
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    Yes I do think it would be handled differently. Let me explain why. If the automakers screwed around with the warranty at THEIR stores, then the customers would instead of like now going to another dealer (Who does the same bull, what a GREAT system eh? I'm being sarcastic) they would go to ANOTHER AUTOMAKER. This is so simple it's not even funny.

    First of all, the dealers don't "screw around" with the warranty. The dealers don't issue the warranty,they don't pay out for the warranty. the automaker does.
    The dealer submits a claim to the automaker. The automaker decides whether or not to honor it. Dealers know from experience which claims will be valid and which won't. I suggest that before you trash a system you try to understand it first.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    The public is speaking with their checkbooks. Are you listening?

    Yes, and the public buys cars using the current system,
    In fact,the public buys lots of cars using the current system.
    The current drop in car sales isn't due to public dislike of car dealers,it is due to the fact that the public has less money.
    Here is the thing that none of you are addressing. Where is it in the automakers interest to spend the money to own and operate dealerships?
    Don't say"the automakers will sell more cars" because a) you have no evidence to back that up and b) none of you ever deal w/ the people who work directly for the automakers. Let me tell you,most of them couldn't sell stoves to eskimos.
    If anything,your car buying and servicing experience would get WORSE not better.
    Dealers in competition for your business will do more to make you happy than a one size fits all factory store will.
    I think most of your frustration stems from the fact that you don't understand how the system works,you don't want to take the time to learn and you live in mortal fear that someone is ripping you off. Even if you have no proof of that.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    This has officially become the silliest discussion on the site. Too bad. It started out well.

    Whether at some time down the road - and it will be way down the road due to existing franchise laws - automakers decide to sell direct isn't the topic. It's more why are all the dealerships folding and maybe what will this look like when all the dust settles.

    We know for a fact that it won't be manufacturers selling direct so this argument is pointless.

    See you when it gets back on topic.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Some got wiped out, like a bunch of off-topic posts. Please stick to the topic or you may find your participation in here restricted.

    Vegas is hurting and the foreclosures are spilling over to car sales:

    Centennial Hyundai closes six months after opening (LVRJ)
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    The first is a huge dealer group in Wisconsin, but the news is he is closing only his Saturn stores. I guess he's getting out while the getting is good, since GM announced it will be shutting down the brand. All the dealerships he is closing will be gone by April 15th. Too many of these, and the Saturn retail group won't be able to find a way forward from 2011. Apparently this one is one of the original Saturn retailers:

    http://www.examiner.com/a-1907575~Bergstrom_closing_Saturn_dealerships.html?cid=- rss-Wisconsin_Headlines

    The other is a large Dodge dealer in New Mexico. This one is in hot water because he stopped paying off peoples' trade-ins when he knew the end was getting near:

    Ken Zangara lands in a legal stew

    New Mexico says high-profile dealer misused funds


    March 30, 2009 - 12:01 am ET

    Ken Zangara is in hot water.

    The well-connected New Mexico Dodge dealer closed his store last month because of collapsing sales. He now faces a state civil action stemming from what New Mexico Attorney General Gary King described in a court filing last week as "an automotive Ponzi scheme."

    An action filed last week in a New Mexico district court alleges that the Albuquerque store took numerous vehicles on trade that had loan balances due but failed to follow through on a promise to pay off the loans.

    Zangara Dodge "misrepresented that the check to the creditor is in the mail when it is not," the court filing states.

    ....The allegations are the newest chapter in the saga of a dealership that for many years was the top-selling Dodge store in New Mexico. Zangara twice chaired George W. Bush's New Mexico presidential finance committee and once chaired Dodge's national dealer council. When the automaker was seeking a bailout in November and December, he used his influence to help Chrysler dealers get audiences with politicians.

    Zangara Dodge closed Feb. 17. The 56-year-old dealer said his financial troubles began when sales declined sharply last fall. In an Automotive News article last week, Zangara blamed his store's closure on Chrysler Financial. He said the captive pulled his floorplan and stopped buying his consumer loans in February.

    Attorney General King alleged Zangara Dodge fraudulently diverted customer payments to pay other bills. According to the court filings, the money should have been used to pay off the trade-ins and pay license registration fees, insurers and extended service contract providers.

    A spokeswoman for Zangara's lawyer, Allan Wainwright of Albuquerque, said the dealership could not pay the fees and trade-ins because Chrysler Financial had frozen its accounts. Chrysler Financial declined comment.

    "Zangara knew he was in trouble," Branch said. "He continued to take trade-ins and then was using the money (from sale of the vehicle) to pay off the trade-ins for other obligations."


    http://www.autonews.com/article/20090330/ANA06/903300324/1142
    (registration link)

    It seems to me that this is just one more example of how, as more and more dealers get in trouble, the desperate measures they take to try and stay afloat have larger ramifications on their communities. I know lots of folks here are against dealers getting any sort of federal help, but gee whiz: we bailed out every other part of the auto industry supply system! And the failure of this portion of it is hurting lots of people.

    Of course, on the flip side, if we give them a bunch of help and then GM and Chrysler go out of business anyway, it will end up looking like wasted money I guess.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • mako1amako1a Member Posts: 1,855
    Put cars in Walmart and Price Club with a price to the public. The same low price to everyone just like everything else in the store. Slow sales...lower the price! Extremely slow sales, blue light special.
    I don't need a dealership who pays a salesperson to get me to pay more for an overstocked overpriced commodity.

    2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali

  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    Sears tried selling cars that Wallymart way . They were rebadged Henry J's labeled Allstate. That idea failed then and would not survive today.
  • mako1amako1a Member Posts: 1,855
    Manufacturers put model years on their own product essentially labeling them with an expiration date. Obviously some form of year is needed for value, insurance etc, but it also makes them devalue when not sold quickly. Just a thought...Kubota makes tractors, but doesn't put a model year on them until they sell. Sale date becomes model year.

    2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Isn't there a serious proposal on the table for WalMart to begin selling some Chinese car in a couple of years? They are trying to work out the details.

    But do we want all dealerships to go away? They are the only vendors of CPO cars. They are the only providers of warranty work on new cars (not sure how the WalMart proposal for Chinese cars is going to work for warranty work - will they set up mechanics' shops at WalMart stores?). They are much more numerous than WalMart stores, so the number of different things they support in their communities is much higher, and the types more diverse. The dealership pay scale is much better, and full-time employment is much more prevalent than at WalMart, so dealerships provide better job opportunities for their communities too.

    These are good businesses to have in general, even the corporate giants, and let's not forget what a high percentage are small family businesses. No way the average family is going to be able to find the capital to open up a WalMart. :sick:

    Edit...since domestic-branded dealers are taking the brunt of this, let's make this real: you really think there is a potential in future for buying Fords, Chevys, and Dodges at department stores? I can't see these automakers going for this even if they lose a large portion of their dealer networks.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The way current state laws work, Wal-Mart would have to become an auto dealer in those states where it decided to sell cars. Some states require stand-alone facilities I think (easy enough to put up a portable building in the parking lot I suppose). And some Wal-Marts already have tire shops with lifts and mechanics. And there's likely a host of other laws and regulations in force to protect the status quo.

    "Former New Orleans Saints running back Deuce McAllister has temporarily closed most of his south Jackson car dealership to determine the future of the enterprise. And time is short.

    "We are trying to work through and figure out what is the best solution for this whole process," McAllister said Wednesday at Deuce McAllister Nissan of Jackson.

    Nissan Motor Acceptance Corp., the automaker's financing arm, filed a civil suit in February alleging Deuce McAllister Nissan owes nearly $7 million - with about $5.7 million listed as vehicles on the lot, court documents show. The dealership filed for bankruptcy in March to reorganize and halt Nissan's efforts to repossess the vehicles."

    McAllister's dealership's future in doubt (ClarionLedger)
  • mako1amako1a Member Posts: 1,855
    Then I'll buy from private owners until that market dries up. After that I'll go to the local auto recovery (junk yard) and cobble up my own fordillac with toyolet trim. Sounds silly, but that is exactly how fed up I am with the present state of car dealers. I refuse to buy from a person whose job 1 is to make me overpay for a product in oversupply.

    2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Wal~Mart mechanics and Chinese cars? Sounds like a recipe for disaster!!!
  • mako1amako1a Member Posts: 1,855
    A disaster is signing a contract to pay $30 k for a product worth maybe $15 k a block from where you picked it up.

    Do you know how many people out there would love to sell their present vehicle but can't because they owe more than it's worth? Walking away from mortgages has become driving away from car payments (until repo man gets there).

    Overpricing combined with super fast devaluation is the real disaster.

    2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali

  • plan_manplan_man Member Posts: 97
    seems to vary greatly!

    I'm about to fill out the CSI for Livermore Audi, and frankly I'm going to give them pretty high marks. I gave Stoneridge Chrysler near top scores for each of the four purchases we made there back in the day too.

    Brick and mortars aren't going away, and they won't be nationalized either. I can't see mfr's wanting to run that business either.

    This is a shakeout. Buyers are more scarce and aren't interested in also-ran product right now. Those stands who had weak ledgers before are going close now, and possible ditto for those who had good finances prior but are saddled with less popular product now.

    I really don't see this changing the process like a bolt of lightning or something. Americans routinely abandon real value for perceived bargain, hence the need to negotiate to feel better about their purchase. Years ago when I was a buyer for Macy's, we tried a highly supported move to bargain price Revereware. Basically we took our sale price and made it our everyday price. For the season (half-year) sales dropped 38 or 39% as I recall. So we went back to sale rotation where we marked them up 60 points and then sold them for 50% off 50% of the time. Major increases at the same price point, and you still had to wait for the sale events.

    The average consumer isn't all that bright, but would like to think he is... :blush:
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    so we can blame this auto pricing strategy on you! ;0
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Exactly. You could set all sticker prices 5% below current invoice and make them no-haggle, and a great many people would be really upset, even though most of the time that is the best deal they are going to make anyway, and most will waste HALF A DAY getting to that deal.

    Well, if state law prevents WalMart from selling cars, they will probably find a way around it if they decide to go ahead - WalMart usually does.

    While I've never really had a stellar new car purchase experience, I have had some OK ones, and I have developed some very satisfactory relationships with service departments at a couple of different local dealers. I also know how much they do for their local communities. I don't think it would be better to let them all fail in favor of buying cars at WalMart and Target. Where's THEIR bailout?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • plan_manplan_man Member Posts: 97
    so we can blame this auto pricing strategy on you! ;0

    Whoa! Don't I feel powerful?! ;)
  • joem5joem5 Member Posts: 201
    The new mantra is What's good for Walmart is good for the country. :shades:
  • joem5joem5 Member Posts: 201
    I think auto pricing ought to be blamed on the government for their mandated standards on US vehicles., the enviormentalist and their bemoaning and the ridiclous union wages, and a pension as good as congress gets.IMAO
    .
  • plan_manplan_man Member Posts: 97
    There is no government mandate on union wages or pensions, other than that unions have the right to collective bargaining. If there are abuses or abusive policies in that regard, they are failures of corporate management, pure and simple. I have managed union labor in retailing off and on for 22 years, and my experience insists that any problems management encounters with labor are born of management's inability or refusal to manage effectively.

    And frankly, none of that has the least bit to do with dealerships or how they operate, or pricing.

    Now, government mandates on safety and environmental protection are another matter. Personally, I'm good with most, if not all of the regs the mfrs toil under to sell in this country, from supplemental restraint systems to water-based low-or-no-VOC paint systems. I got zero problems with any of it, other than the damned idiot-stickers all over new cars!

    I'm frankly blown away at what we get in automobiles at the prices we pay. Adjust for inflation, and we're driving serious auto-tech bargains, from an historical perspective. We seriously get what we pay for...

    YMMV, of course...
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    I'm frankly blown away at what we get in automobiles at the prices we pay.

    Well, particularly in your case of late....
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • plan_manplan_man Member Posts: 97
    Yowza. Let's look at the film one more time...

    image

    Ahhhhhhhh....
    :blush:

    I'm really thinking more of 02's Scion xB. Not an expensive piece of equipment, especially three years used, and yet with an array of safety features, solid build, good economy, significant comfort and utility, surprising handling, capable powerplant and conveniences I never had on my first compact back when.

    You get a hell of a lot in a car these days, sez I.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    I've been known to drive Mrs. fezo crazy because I will grab an Auto Shopper and look at various cars and point out which sound like a really good deal to me and ones that seem high based on nothing but my own thinking.

    Slightly used cars are still just amazing buys. of course I then keep them until they are almost entirely used...
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    If we could go to a place to buy a car and not have to go through the hassle of having someone try to get that extra few dollars off of you. If the sticker price was the price it might take a few months but people could get used to it. Pick up the paper and read that dealer or box store A has a vehicle you are looking for at $xxxx dollars. Location B has a vehicle $xxxx dollars and it is a bit closer. You look at your check book decide you can afford the car at place B and off you go. No surprise no wink and a promise that this car your are looking for is worth more than the car at the other location and no fleet of people giving you the hot lamp treatment to buy today. I believe if dealers had done business like this in the beginning they would never have seen so many people avoid them in times like these. Things may have slowed down anyway but remember Wallyworld was one of the few box stores that had a good holiday season. Because the people knew what they could get and that it would be the best price.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    You realize of course that if cars were sold just like any other retail item, we would quickly see the regression to the mean that we see in every other aspect of retail: the evolution of enormous box stores with little to no customer service gobbling up all the smaller stores, even as they sell at rock bottom prices.

    Considering how far you have to drive to WalMart, would you want to have to drive that far to pick up your new car or get warranty service for it? And I'm not sure how stores that big would handle test drives, but I doubt they could spare the personnel for each customer to test drive for themselves the car they wanted. More likely, they would have one or two of each model available at an on-site test track that you could take for a 2-minute spin. So much for driving a manual if that's what you want, or checking out how it actually drives on the street, WalMartization of the car sales industry would have ended all that....

    It's possible that boutique car dealers would survive, marking up MSRP by 10% or something, but we don't see that happening in other retail sectors. And I would say that boutique stores could ask for a non-refundable deposit to test drive their cars on the street, since it's not like WalMart lets you take that new big screen TV home and see how it performs in your living room before you pay for it.

    Except for niche and luxury items, the little guys are losing out to WalMart every day, every week, every year that goes by. That would be a disservice in the auto sales sector IMO.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    it's not like WalMart lets you take that new big screen TV home and see how it performs in your living room before you pay for it.

    But if it dies after you buy it, you can return it for another or for your money back.

    That's one reason Mom & Pops died - too much hassle with stuff that was DOA and lousy return policies.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Well I can't see car retailers having a return policy, can you? They are in the unique position of selling a product that loses a substantial portion of its value as soon as it leaves their parking lot.

    This is just one of the many little reasons that the standard retail model can't be applied to selling cars.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    They are in the unique position of selling a product that loses a substantial portion of its value as soon as it leaves their parking lot

    Meaning they are overpriced in the first place?

    I can't really think of another hard good off-hand that depreciates as fast as automobiles. Maybe computers.

    Oh, diamond rings. That's an overpriced commodity that you'll never get your money back on.
  • wreckerman9wreckerman9 Member Posts: 8
    thats right,do we really need all these dealers? i don't think so. there's enuff to go around. most of the ones we're losing are the incompetent,and greedy little dealers. in hard times,only the strong survive...there's 43 cars on the nascar track every weekend,and only 1 winner. it's time to get back to the basics,and maybe the automakers,will realize the public has had enough of the foolish dealer hype. i myself will never buy,because i hear the words,COUPON,REBATE,OR CASHBAX. time for a reality check. get it right this time guys,you're counting on us,the consumer.
  • plan_manplan_man Member Posts: 97
    Oh, diamond rings. That's an overpriced commodity that you'll never get your money back on.

    Only if you buy retail. :P

    The used car market is hot, as people look for ways to economize in the downturn. Demand is building behind that; one, because Americans are consumers and can't go all that long without something new, and two, because you don't replenish the supply of decent used cars without selling some new ones.

    So consolidation and culling now will only lead to better profits then, meaning the strong stand to clean up big time on the upside of all this.

    One of the best purchasing/customer service/product experiences I ever had was in '93 on a Saturn SL2. The process was simple, the people well trained, polite and knowledgeable, the product (IMO) very competitive, and the service after the sale in some ways exceeded that which I would later experience at a Lexus stand (the reported paragon of service standards). The car performed flawlessly for me, was capable, comfortable and fun to drive. I found significant value in the whole shebang, from soup to nuts.

    Whatever product mistakes GM made with the line over the years, the fact remains that the public is used to doing car business a certain way, and even when presented with what they may say they want, they apparently don't.

    I personally would welcome a "price you see is the price you pay" scenario, but how do you verify value for cost? And what happens if the product doesn't move and you can wait for the sale?

    I don't see it changing anytime soon...
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Only if you buy retail

    Nah, DeBeers promotes them as "heirlooms" because they know you'll never be able to sell them for anything like what you paid for them, wholesale or retail.

    I think the gorilla in the back room with the Saturn model is that people frequently trade cars in and how do you take that haggle out of that part of the deal? Send them to CarMax for a price first?
  • plan_manplan_man Member Posts: 97
    Nah, DeBeers promotes them as "heirlooms" because they know you'll never be able to sell them for anything like what you paid for them, wholesale or retail.

    You're not talking about diamonds, Steve, you're talking about pianos!
    ;)

    Valid point on trading. My Saturn puchase involved no trade; I returned a leased vehicle to Honda American and went straight to the purchase.

    Matter of fact, I think you're much more on the scent than any of us with that. I think more people fail to negotiate their own sale (the trade) effectively than anything else in the process. And I think those people probably feel more denuded by that part of the transaction than by the new product purchase.

    Failure to separate the two transactions may be part of it. Failure to be able to sell their own product (negotiate the trade of their old car) may be another. I wonder how many people neglect to research the value of their trade honestly and without emotion, prepare the product (detail it, remove the gum wrappers, etc.), and present the product?

    Good call...
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    It's a lot of hassle selling your own car and people know the dealer will detail it anyway, so they don't bother cleaning their trade-in up. Even though it really does help the value.

    That's the nice thing about driving them forever though - I could spend all day cleaning up my minivan and it's still going to be worth a grand. Maybe. No way is a wax and vacuum going to make much difference on the trade. Craigslisting it, well, looking clean would help more there I think.

    Diamonds vs pianos - at least the rock is easier to haul to the pawn shop and doesn't require tuning. ;)

    Miami Car Dealer Is Upbeat, but Admits Something Has Changed

    "All around Mr. Sifford car dealerships are closing. Five have disappeared or gone up for sale within a 10-minute drive of his showroom here; nationwide, more than 1,000 shut down in 2008." (New York Times)

    Oh, speaking of Saturn:

    All KC area Saturn dealers closing (The Kansas City Star)
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    There is a lot of how it should work going on and the pleading for us to hold on to the status quo. But the dealers are closing faster than big box stores and it has to be for some reason. It seems if you take a survey people simply do not trust the dealers and there are no real tears being shed by the customers. Also if you buy the extended warrantee it isn't even covered by the dealer it is more like an insurance policy. I had one on my old New Yorker and when the dash went black the dealer told me it wasn't covered. I called the number I was given when I got the gold, or whatever preasous metal coverage I bought for a bumper to bumper coverage and they told the service department I was covered. I thought the service manager was going to choke. And it turns out some private mechanics can preform dealer services in California. So warrantee work could be preformed at places other than a dealer.

    The real key is some of us, unlike my friend Nippon, do not feel we would lose that much service if we lost a few more dealers. Maybe when the smoke clears what ever is left will be an improvement over the system we have today. Service is a whole different kettle of fish than car sales. The very fact that car sales have so much wiggle room indicates they are over priced in the first place.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "In the first quarter this year, 271 auto dealers in the U.S. went out of business, according to the National Automobile Dealers Association."

    Economy Takes A Toll on Auto Dealers Ranks (Auto Observer)

    image
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    Maybe when the smoke clears what ever is left will be an improvement over the system we have today.

    I wouldn't count on it. Whenever a recession hits,it affects the weakest players first. the strong survive and are in position to get stronger duriing the recovery.
    A strong dealer is the one which manages its costs best AND maximizes its profits from Sales,Service and Parts.
    What the consumer will find this time is fewer dealers,but fewer deals as well.
    LESS competition has a tendency to raise prices,not lower them.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Developer Dan Schmidt has placed six of his auto dealerships into receivership amid a dispute with KeyBank

    .....The dispute with KeyBank centers on the Nashville and Denver dealerships. Schmidt in January voluntarily placed his five Nashville-area dealerships and a Denver-area dealership into receivership at Franklin County Common Pleas Court. All were financed by KeyBank, which sued Schmidt in the same court on Feb. 18 to foreclose on the properties, arguing he had defaulted on nearly $30 million in loans.

    Franklin County Common Pleas Judge John P. Bessey granted immediate foreclosure the same day.

    “This is all collateral damage from the credit crisis,” Schmidt said.


    http://columbus.bizjournals.com/columbus/stories/2009/03/09/story3.html

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    Interesting .. the ads for the Infiniti dealership here in Denver mentioned a sister store in Nashville. Never knew who they were owned by, but I guess I know now.

    For the longest time, it was the only Infiniti dealership in metro Denver. Now there is a second, on the other side of town.

    I'll have to see if there is anything about this in the local papers.
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    ...there is a buyer for every seller:

    Dealin' Doug is back!
  • carthellcarthell Member Posts: 130
    Either he's the smartest guy on the block, or he's got a GMAC-backed loan protected by a bunch of credit default swaps from AIG. :surprise:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    He could be buying back prime real estate for pennies on the dollar. When the dust settles and there are half a dozen Chinese & Indian car makers looking for dealers he will have the showrooms ready to go. Just change the sign from Lithia to Chindia motors. :shades:
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    the 1008 dealerships that closed in 2008 represented the steepest decline in the dealer count in the U.S. since 1980.

    Bad times chop dealership count

    April 13, 2009 - 12:01 am ET

    On May 1, 30 years after joining his father's dealership, Carl Shetler plans to call it quits.

    Shetler Lincoln-Mercury in Lake Charles, La., will close. The property's new owners will sell generators.

    The past two years have been tough for Shetler. The dealership's new-vehicle sales tumbled by more than a third, to 12 to 15 units a month in 2009. "There are so few stand-alone Lincoln-Mercury stores, says Shetler, 61. "In the future, they'll merge Lincoln-Mercury with Ford."

    Shetler's departure is part of a trend. According to Automotive News' annual census, 1,008 U.S. dealerships closed last year, the biggest decline in three decades.

    Last year, collapsing light-vehicle sales propelled a dealer exodus that has accelerated the Detroit 3's dealership consolidation.

    Dealers are deciding on their own to exit the business.

    This month, Wisconsin megadealer John Bergstrom will close four of his six Saturn stores, a sign that even GM's biggest retailers see little hope for the brand.

    And dealers who overextended their retail empires, such as Minnesota mogul Denny Hecker in Minneapolis, are being forced out of business as credit dries up. Last fall, Chrysler Financial abruptly cut off Hecker's credit lines, forcing him to shut down at least nine dealerships, plus exit the car rental business.


    And it IS very much the domestic-brand dealers taking it on the nose:

    According to Automotive News' census, there were 20,453 stores as of Jan. 1, down 1,008 dealerships from a year earlier. It was the steepest loss since 1980.

    The Detroit 3 bore the brunt of the loss, shedding 979 retailers. Import brands, which saw sales collectively fall 12.0 percent last year, lost 29 stores.

    To be sure, the lousy market ravaged the ranks of some second-tier import brands. Suzuki lost 78 franchises; Mitsubishi, 67; and Volvo, 25. By contrast, stable top-tier brands such as Toyota, Honda and Mercedes experienced almost no change in their franchise count.


    And for them it's going to be even harder to stay in business in the future:

    For the Detroit 3, the carnage is only beginning. Deeper cuts are in the works as part of the bailout strictures demanded by the U.S. government.

    For example, General Motors opened 2009 with 6,273 dealerships, down 380 from a year earlier. Its target is to cut the number to 4,100 by about 2014.


    http://www.autonews.com/article/20090413/ANA06/904130347/1078
    (registration link)

    Apparently Chrysler is attempting to consolidate its dealers so all of them carry all 3 brands, but it is only at 61% as of now, and has slowed its attempts to do this because the economy is causing so much dealer attrition.

    And Ford won't announce specific numbers at all, either of its consolidation effort or of the target number of dealers it wants to have.

    Tough times for dealers. Their bailout is where, again?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    They are already sharing tips for how to handle a bankruptcy filing by one of the domestics!

    WARNING: CHAPTER 11

    Here's how dealers can prepare


    Chapter 11 filing by General Motors or Chrysler LLC would create many hazards for dealers. For example, the value of inventory would drop, and franchise agreements could be worthless.

    But dealers can prepare, some dealers and attorneys say. Here is a summary of the advice we collected.

    -- Trim inventory. Dealers should keep stocks of new vehicles and replacement parts to a minimum. Otherwise, they could get stuck with vastly depreciated vehicles and parts they can't sell if the manufacturer goes bankrupt, says Michael Charapp, a dealer attorney in McLean, Va.

    -- Bill the factory now. Dealers must push the factory to pay money due the dealership — such as sales incentives and warranty claims.

    -- Prepare Plan B. If GM and Chrysler restructure in Chapter 11, quick, deep cuts to dealer networks are likely. A bankruptcy court could allow such cuts, negating the legal protections provided by state franchise laws.

    Attorney Bellavia says dealers should prepare to find an alternative use for their dealership buildings — such as a used-car lot. "Dealers need a contingency plan in the event the factory terminates the dealer agreement," he says.

    -- Talk to your lender. Attorney Charapp says: "Dealers should sit down with their accountants and develop a presentation" they can give their lenders. "Banks will get spooked by a manufacturer bankruptcy. The dealers have to tell their lenders why they continue to be a viable credit risk.

    -- As a last resort, file for Chapter 11 first. Attorney Bellavia says dealers who feel slated for elimination and who can retain floorplanning might be better off beating the factory to bankruptcy court. He says a pre-emptive bankruptcy would protect the dealer's franchise agreement, which otherwise could be thrown out by a bankruptcy judge.


    http://www.autonews.com/article/20090413/ANA06/904130353
    (registration link)

    Geez, what a bleak little list. And just eyeballing it quickly, many of these suggestions seem fairly weak as ways for dealers to protect themselves. One that does seem viable is becoming used car dealers, and perhaps keeping the service department as well. Just because the manufacturer goes bankrupt doesn't mean they can't continue to service the cars, and they could even branch out to service other makes. They have the facilities, they have the mechanics, why throw all that away.

    Still, I would be very worried if I were a GM or Chrysler dealer right now.....

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    Just watching TV and looking at the advertisements in the paper I have never been less impressed with what vehicle offerings we see right now. And according to the figures in Motor intelligence it seems as if a lot of people feel the same way. It is like we have been broken from an addiction cold turkey.
    http://motorintelligence.com/m_frameset.html

    Even Subaru lost sales last month even if it wasn't as bad as everyone else. Suzuki wasn't even on the radar. And the strange thing is, in social gatherings people I talk to just don't care. It just could be the best thing to happen to GM would be if they went Bankrupt. They would get rid of the legacy cost and the government would have to pick up the retirement costs, as they have indicated they would. Ford would still have the UAW contracts but GM would be free to reduce costs and be on a much more even footing with the imports.

    Most people simply don't care because the dealers were never part of our communities. Sales might not have been the only complaint people had the cost of service and parts was so much higher of you had to go to the dealer that many people simply went to an independent. As you know California had to pass a law so people could service their vehicles by following the warentee booklet and they could preform much of the service themselves and simply keep the receipts to keep the warentee up. Things you couldn't do you could get a private mechanic to do. And why did people and the State go to all that trouble? Because the dealers charged too much compared to independents.

    It is time for a change even if we get stuck with dealerships when it is all over. At least maybe we will get treated as customers and not sheep to be sheared. I don't know if that will happen but I have hope.

    But you are correct the dealers have been in a position to not have to worry about giving your money back like a big box store would for a big screen TV. And that is the problem, if the vehicles was worth what they charged in the first place it would take such a big hit the minute it gets off of the lot. I have bought returned equipment from places before that had the very same warentee as any other new product and the people didn't take as big a hit as a car does just driving it home. The dealers have a lot to answer for in how they have treated customers and they just may be feeling the pain they caused now. If they remember it maybe we will be better for it in the future. even if we have fewer dealers to deal with.
  • mikefm58mikefm58 Member Posts: 2,882
    The dealers have a lot to answer for in how they have treated customers and they just may be feeling the pain they caused now. If they remember it maybe we will be better for it in the future. even if we have fewer dealers to deal with.

    Be careful what you wish for, fewer companies (dealers) competing with each other "usually" drives up prices, not drives them down.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Credit crisis is closing GM, Chrysler stores at a fast clip

    April 20, 2009 - 12:01 am ET

    DETROIT — The credit crisis and other financial problems are accelerating General Motors and Chrysler LLC dealership closings.

    This year GM has lost 165 dealerships, Mark LaNeve, GM North America vice president of vehicle sales, service and marketing, told Automotive News last week. "Normal attrition is about 175 to 200 for a full year, so we're at a much higher acceleration," he said.

    Steven Landry, Chrysler's executive vice president of sales and marketing, said 35 dealerships closed in March. In early 2008, about 20 dealerships were closing a month, the company said.

    "Dealership terminations have increased 35 percent in the last six months due to stress in the financial markets," Landry said in an interview this month at the New York auto show.

    .....Chrysler's Landry said many undercapitalized Chrysler dealers need help with retail loans, wholesale loans, loans for capital expenditures and real estate. "Some third-party financial institutions have said to some dealers, 'We're getting out of the floorplan business,' " Landry said.

    In some cases, the institutions are giving dealers 90 to 120 days to find another floorplan provider, he said. Normally, those dealers would approach Chrysler Financial for floorplanning, Landry said, but "Chrysler Financial says we don't have any money right now."

    ......While GM and Chrysler executives think they need smaller dealership networks, a brutal recession has made the consolidation chaotic and unpredictable. Dealers are running out of cash, and they are starting to panic.

    "I'm selling this place," one GM dealer who declined to be identified said last week. "I'm giving it away just to get out of it. I have to get rid of everything."

    The dealer has fewer than 100 total used and new cars on his lot, about half of normal. And he has just one technician in his service department.

    "My dad bought this dealership in the early '80s, and I washed cars for him," the dealer said. "He's had it for 30 years. This is my retirement, and it's gone."


    http://www.autonews.com/article/20090420/ANA06/304209972/1178
    (registration link)

    And how many more will go if this pair DOES declare bankruptcy, as is looking increasingly likely? These dealers aren't far away in Detroit, these are businesses in our communities! :-(

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Bankruptcy fears rattle dealers

    Retailers get ready for GM and Chrysler filings


    April 20, 2009 - 12:01 am ET

    DETROIT — The growing likelihood that General Motors and Chrysler LLC will land in Bankruptcy Court has sent a wave of fear through U.S. auto dealers.

    Many GM and Chrysler dealers are protecting themselves by cutting inventory and factory orders. GM and Chrysler desperately need orders, but dealers are holding back because the automakers are in such bad shape.

    "We're SOL if GM goes BK," said Chevrolet dealer Larry Dimmitt.

    Dimmitt, who owns Dimmitt Chevrolet in Clearwater, Fla., ordered some GM vehicles in February because he wanted the cash incentives of up to $1,250 per vehicle. Now he regrets it.

    Dimmitt said he thought the market would open up but "it hasn't — it's gotten worse."

    He estimates his days' supply is five to six months at his current sales rate of about 15 a month. He has stopped ordering new vehicles from GM.

    As of April 13 Dimmitt had sold only seven new vehicles this month. He was hoping for 20 sales by midmonth. Early in this decade, he said, he would sell about 65 new vehicles by midmonth.

    If a manufacturer files for Chapter 11 protection from creditors, the value of inventory will plummet. With an automaker in Bankruptcy Court, floorplan lenders want their dealer customers to have minimal inventory to reduce their risk.

    Chrysler dealer Troy Allen, said, "I didn't order one vehicle for most of October, November, December, January." Then he participated in Chrysler's wholesale allocation program in March and April, meaning he got up to $1,000 a vehicle on most vehicles.

    He owns Allen Motors, a Chrysler-Dodge-Jeep dealership in Derry, N.H. In December, he hired a bankruptcy lawyer to prepare his dealership for a possible Chrysler bankruptcy


    http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090420/ANA06/304209968/1197-
    (registration link)

    It also mentions that because dealers have to wait to get reimbursed from the manufacturer for cash rebates, some are asking their customers to hold off on that now, until they get the money from GM or Chrysler, at which point they turn around and cut a check to the customer. No way would I rely on that. I feel really bad for these dealers, but on the flip side I have to say that even if GM or Chrysler were my #1 choice for a new car and I needed one right now, I wouldn't go near a GM or Chrysler dealer right now. I would be really afraid of getting burned in some aspect of the purchase. :sick:

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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