Does the current situation affect hybrid sales more?

PF_Flyer

Does the turmoil in the Detroit and with the economy hurt the sales of hybrids more than non-hybrid economy cars?

The $4 gas prices this past summer certainly drove people away from trucks and SUV's. Faced with uncertainty in the financial markets, people are quite naturally "pulling in their horns" and not spending as much. Do you think this will translate into a bump in the road for sales of hybrids?

boaz47

It will only effect Hybrids in that they cost more than their non hybrid counterparts and they don't have an entry level hybrid. The economy will more than likely help lower cost new cars more than anything else. But hybrids more than likely will not be disproportionately effected. They were in the pipeline before the economy hit the wall.

fezo

I almost hope it means a bump in the road for them but only because I hate cars selling for more than list. I realize that's how the market works - doesn't mean I have to like it.

On the other hand I won't be in the market for at least a year ir two so I'll see what things look like then.

PF_Flyer

In a bid to move iron, Ford has combined employee pricing and 0% financing on 9 models, but doesn't include the Mariner and Escape hybrids in that group?

How long is it recommended that a car sit in one spot without being bought?

fezo

Wow. That is odd. I actually would mind one of those.

I'm still waiting for them to just start giving cars away. They're getting there.

gagrice

but doesn't include the Mariner and Escape hybrids in that group?

My brother in law just bought a new Escape with V6. He was thinking about the Hybrid Escape. Said it was almost $10k more than he paid. Did not think he would ever use that much more gas. I told him he made a wise choice.

fezo

Indeed he did. That is just plain nuts. I'd like a hybrid next time around but not at that expense.

The VW Jettta TDI wagon looks better every day.

railroadjames

What amazes me is that folks seem to forget that the price of gas has dropped quite suddenly and will most certanly climb again in the future. Anyone out there doubt it? While I did not like the near 5 buck a gallon gas price this summer I certanly was happy for the fact it only cost me a fraction of what SUVers were paying. I have never found a car that gave me the satisfaction that my Prius has and will continue to do. I'm at 95K miles and Lord knows the buckets of $$$$ I've saved. I too could consider another vehicle besides a hybrid. I like other cars but just don't tell my Prius. She might object. She's earned the right to object. Back to gas prices. Next summer I predict gas at 3-4 bucks again and then we'll be right back where we started. Hardly the wiser. Oh! Why am I the wiser you ask? I was bold enough to take the plunge when lesser folks shyed away.

gagrice

I went to lunch with a friend last week. He had just bought a brand new 2009 Prius and wanted to take me for a ride. The last Prius I was in was when they first came here in 2000. Quite frankly I was not impressed. The road noise was more than I expected. The engine kicking in was noisier than my GMC Hybrid PU. I was sitting in back it had plenty of leg room. It just was not a smooth comfortable ride. I rarely ride in small cars and they will have to be much nicer riding and quieter to get me to buy one. I don't care if it gets 100 MPG. Sorry James I am not that desperate to save gas. Maybe for short trips to the store. I would never head out on a road trip in one.

explorerx4

the escape and mariner hybrid are not produced in great quantites, which has a lot lot to do with exempting them from employee pricing.
you basically can't find one here in new england.
some dealers in california have a good supply.

boaz47

Said the other night. "The only thing dropping faster than gas prices in california was the smug look on prius drivers as they drove down the street." Even at $4.00 a gallon they didn't pay for themselves compared to a Yaris at half the price. At $2.00 they may never make up the difference. California gas was $1.85 a gallon for Regular on the way home for family thanksgiving. I almost stopped to get gas and I had almost a full tank.

I like the idea of a hybrid if it is put in a practical car that doesn't look so strange. Even I was tempted to purchase a Insight from a friend from out of state. But now I can hold on till they come out with a EV city car, I hope. Still I don't think lower fuel prices will effect hybrids from Toyota and Honda. It might push the manufacturers into some small diesels but that would be fine as well. I prefer some comfort over strangeness for strangeness sake.

gagrice

One of the San Diego dealers has 22 Prius on their inventory. Prices start at $22,999 go to $29,386. Same dealer has 18 Camry hybrids and 12 Highlander hybrids. I had no idea you could spend $55,000 on a Highlander Hybrid. That is about $12,000 over the top of the line non hybrid Highlander. That gives you about the first 130,000 miles worth of gas free on the non-hybrid version.

I would say the cheap gas has made the hybrids a lot less desirable.

boaz47

Well they are going to have to price them within reason but I think Hybrids are the wave of the future unless we can get reasonable small diesels. If they produced small entry level diesels and brought them to market at prices people could afford they could corner the market before hybrids had a big foot hold. But that doesn't seem to be the way anyone wants to do things. The one thing lower fuel prices might do is force hybrid manufacturers to make hybrids more price competitive. I never liked the idea of them pricing hybrids like cabbage patch dolls just because they could.

gagrice

With Toyota and Ford lots busting at the seams I think a person with patience could cut a good deal on a Hybrid. I like to start at invoice and go down from there. After riding in my friends 2009 Prius, I would never buy one. Just too rough around the edges comfort, noise and ride. I test drove a Yaris while my Sequoia was being serviced. It was Yugo time in my opinion. I have never seen a Yugo up close. It was what I perceived from my little drive in one. Strictly entry level. Not even close to the Jetta or VW Beetle. Neither was the Prius. If I wanted a small car. The new Jetta TDI would be right at the top of the list. Owners getting 50 MPG and the handling is great. Time will tell if VW has improved reliability. I know my 2005 Passat TDI was great the year I owned it. Only car I kind of miss. That and my Suburban.

_starrman_

I actually have a Highlander Hybrid and took into a consideration of factors for my purchase.

1. I was looking at the macro perspective and wanted to do my part in lessening our dependency on oil... I just got back from Iraq with the military, so I guess that pretty much sums up this reason.
2. Our county charges personal property tax for every vehicle owned... hybrids are tax exempt from these taxes. So my savings in the payoff difference has now accelerated compared to just saving fuel.
3. The vehicle is very roomy, comfortable, and is surprisingly a very quiet vehicle (can't say much in comparison to a Prius... but I'd imagine it's better).
4. In the DC area, we can ride in the HOV lanes as a single passenger with hybrids... for those that's driven in DC before, that in itself is a lifesaver!
5. Of course, the environment - I guess I'm helping a little bit in that too.
6. The Highlander Hybrid uses regular unleaded. For a vehicle that has all the premium features that it has, I don't have to rely on paying extra for premium fuel as other vehicle manufacturers recommend with similar vehicles in it's class.
7. Great reviews from Consumer's Report so far and so far from my experience, I'd have to agree with them.
8. Toyota reliability and resale value (although it will be interesting how hybrids will fit into the equation years down the road.. but I planned to run it to the last mile anyway).
9. From what I understand, less wear and tear and the engine since it's assisted with the hybrid technology... brakes are also less prone to wear and tear as well since the hybrid electric motors take some of the load off in braking to regenerate it's charge in the batteries.

I avg about 24-30mpg (mainly depends if I run the heater a lot, how conservative I drive it).

I guess it depends on how you look at things by putting all the considerations together... if you really enjoy driving your vehicle, see the overall value(s) in what you're getting out of it, the benefits that you're gaining from the additional cost in the long run, and feel that you got a good price for what it serves... then at least you're making an informed decision. Although I may have paid some extra... I still feel pretty good about the purchase regardless.

lemko

Someday, hybrids may be regarded as a historical curiosity or maybe they'll catch on and become the de facto standard for automobiles. Whatever, I hope progress towards better fuel economy proceeds. We will all benefit regardless of the price of gasoline.

PF_Flyer

I don't think hybrids become THE answer. But they certainly create pressure on the conventional ICE vehicle to improve fuel efficiency whichis a good thing.

oldfarmer50

"...I was bold enough to take the plunge when lesser folks shyed away..."

You may indeed have made a smart move if you bought your hybrid a few years ago when gas was cheap. That takes courage. So many folks though ran out in a panic this summer and dumped their SUV for a 10K loss while picking up their hybrid for 3K over sticker.

They would have to drive to the moon and back to have saved any real money. That's just foolish in my book.

I think the smart move now would be to buy a SUV for pennies on the dollar and drive it on the cheap gas. In a year or so when all the people who bought hybrids get tired of them and trade them in, there will be a glut on the market and you can walk away with one cheap.

Buying a car so you can feel smug is usually not a good idea from a financial point of view. This applies to both hybrids and SUVs.

kdhspyder

That's why there are so many choices. OTOH after 40+ yrs of driving all kinds of cars from every maker except Nissan I find the Prius to be the most comfortable ride I've ever had. :surprise:

Why? Because it's not soft and cushy. It's firm and supportive. Just personal preferences I guess.

You are right it does not minimize road noise at all. It's the trade off between extra weight for sound dampening materials and lighter weight for better fuel economy.

andre1969

You are right it does not minimize road noise at all. It's the trade off between extra weight for sound dampening materials and lighter weight for better fuel economy.

I'd also imagine that the Prius has some kind of special tire that's a little extra hard, to reduce rolling resistance?

I've never driven a Prius, but I have ridden in a few. I think it's pretty comfy and roomy. Definitely a step above something like a Yaris or Corolla. I don't think it has enough shoulder room to rightfully be called a midsized car, even if the EPA says it is. But IMO it's a very comfy 4-seater.

My biggest beef with the Prius is that I just can't get past the styling. Well that, and the fact that I don't drive nearly enough to justify ever buying something like that. But I can see its appeal, in the right circumstances.

gagrice

I did not find the ride that uncomfortable. Though we only went about 5 miles. It seemed like my two test drives in the original Prius back in 2000 were much quieter than this 2009 model. The most important thing is my buddy loves it and that is good enough for me. He drives from home 2 miles to church and to the golf course. Fits his needs and saves wear on his little Nissan PU truck.

railroadjames

Well sure I do!! The thing is ...When gas is cheap it costs even less for me to fill up and go 500 miles plus between visits to the pump. When gas crowded 5 bucks it sure was less painfull for Prius owners. For those of you not getting on the great bandwagon for whatever reasons I say....Find me an unsatisfied Prius owner. As of yet I have come up zero. Everybody that owns one thinks it's the best thing since duct tape. I'm at nearly 95 K and I can't remember ever (I said ever) had a car that delivered such dependable, thrifty, and green car satisfaction. One other noticable plus with my Prius...It takes up so little room in the garage that I never experienced B/4.

kdhspyder

The Prius tires are just normal Goodyear Integritys which are run of the mill small vehicle tires. The first Gen Prius had special tires but the the current model uses tires that are also used on Corollas, Civics and others of this size.

Nothing special one way or another. $60 at Tire Rack.

boaz47

was developed because of high gas prices it might have a dog in this fight. But it wasn't, it was the bone Toyota tossed at the American public to get their minds off of a zero emissions vehicle. At least that is what they were in California. Until the Prius CARB mandated a zero emissions vehicle by 2000 and right after the Prius came out the concept was trashed. Hybrids may have a place but there is no law they have to be ugly nor that they are the solution to our fuel useage. If, and there is always a if, there is a limited amount of oil to be drilled for then all cars like the Prius do is slow down that useage and with more drivers getting cars every year that slowing down isn't going to do much. They do not solve the problem and they are not zero emissions.

However back to the subject today gas was $1.88 for regular in Riverside, Ca. You would be very hard pressed to get the additional money a hybrid costs over their non hybrid counterparts. So unless I could get Insight fuel mileage why jump on any bandwagon? Hybrids need to optimism fuel mileage and if and when they do then it will not matter what fuel cost they will sell. When they get 15 to 20 percent better fuel mileage than their counter parts and in return cost 15 to 20 percent more they will not sell.

kdhspyder

This is wrong but don't let a lack of knowledge keep you from forming a solid misconception.

larsb

Anyone know why the November car sales totals have not been announced?

Google News shows not stories yet....WTH?

bumpy

The last four days of November were either holidays or weekends. Give 'em a day to count everything up.

kdhspyder

The official end of Nov was yesterday, Monday. When the calendar month-end hits on a weekend the Monday following is included in the prior month in order to gather all the weekend deals. In this case sales on 12-1 are actually included on Nov.

This occurs several times a year and all the vehicle makers agree to the procedure.

kenlw

"This is wrong but don't let a lack of knowledge keep you from forming a solid misconception."

which "this" are you referring to here?

explorerx4

the numbers are out there. everyone down about 30-45%.

kdhspyder

The entire post essentially.

The post was inaccurate in attempting to sling mud at hybrids in general. The Malibu 2-Mode and the Camry hybrid and the Escape hybrid and the Civic hybrid and the GS 450h are not uglier than their non-hybrid counterparts. In fact they are no different. So that whole misconception is faulty.

The second paragraph is factually inaccurate as well except for the price of gas in Riverside.

railroadjames

That's quite accurate and concise. Sez it all in just a very few words like...."Tis better to be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."
I don't mind the difference of opinion about the Prius but I do mind misinformation and negitive inuendoes by others. I speak with 95K miles under my belt in an '04 Prius. If someone doesn't like the styling or they think there's a bit too much road noise that's just fine but when the issue is a hybrid doesn't make itself worth the extra money I say baloney. I've saved in access of 10 Grand in gas money. Everyone reading this site must know that gas will rise again. It's just a matter of time. Funny..Remember when we all thought gas was high when it crowded 2 bucks 6 or 7 yrs ago? The resale of a Prius ranks up there with the best of em. Owners are consistantly glad owners. The car has a great track record and has been the receiver of accolades from just about every noteworthy critic and that is a fact that sez it all. I will be looking forward to the 3rd Gen Prius and any car that attempts to follow Toyota's lead to build quality, dependable and "smart, green " cars. I also have hopes that this country of ours gets back on its' feet soon so we can put the last few years behind us while learning from our blunders. Ever wonder if gas was just a buck and a half over these last 5 or 6 yrs we'd be in as much trouble as we are? Some might say that gas started it all. Who knows?

gagrice

I would say the hybrids are taking a real beating with the low priced gas. Dealers in CA the largest Prius market are loaded with inventory. This cannot be blamed on the dollar or batteries. It is Americans typical knee jerk reaction to the price of gas. I think the only thing that has not taken a hit in the ToyLex lineup is the big SUVs. figure that one out. Even with record high gas prices the Prius is down for the whole year by 10%. Are the buyers all waiting on the plug-ins?

railroadjames

I just don't understand your retoric. The "WHOLE" auto industry is taking a beating. People don't know if they'll have a job next month. Buyers are scarce for a dozen reasons. Once again you slid in the "BATTERIES" that have proven to be exemplary. I do think that the Prius inventory will change as soon as dealers start discounting them as they did a few times b/4. The knee jerk will kick in when gas edges back up in a few months or if we're lucky a year or so. We'll see. These are troubling times. If you're working, thank your stars. If you're out of work, God help you. What ever the situation, the times they are a changing.
Your stats on the Prius are dubious and even if close it says nothing about the car that the same figures say about the rest of the industry. How about the sales numbers of Hummers ..Escalades.. and...the last of the Excursions? They're collecting rust and dust as the situation worsens. Take a look at another vehicle that's taking a beating worse than the "Big 3". Recreational vehicles are litteraly dead. Indiana laid off thousands this past summer and that's just the beginning of this problem. Ask an R.V.er if he can sell his behemoth that's sitting in the yard collecting cobwebs.

PF_Flyer

This isn't "Are hybrids good/bad?".

Given the current economic "state of mind" I think hybrid sales, as with the sales of any higher priced item are going to suffer a bit more than sales of basic items.

gagrice

Once again you slid in the "BATTERIES" that have proven to be exemplary.

That was not a slam on the batteries. It was in reference to those that said there was a shortage of Prius because there were no batteries available. I think you are blinded by your love of the hybrids. It is true that the market overall is down. Toyota has sold more Sequoias and Landcruisers this year than last. Even November was in the plus column for the big ToyLex SUVs.

The question was Does the current situation affect hybrid sales my post was stating that yes Cheap gas has affected hybrids sales more than most small cars.

andre1969

The question was Does the current situation affect hybrid sales my post was stating that yes Cheap gas has affected hybrids sales more than most small cars.

I don't think it's just cheap gas that's affected the hybrids, but a combination of cheap gas and the recession. Hybrids always carried a price premium, and now that the economy is shot, that premium might be putting them out of reach of many buyers.

The recession might be making some buyers re-think what they really need, and go for something cheaper and more economical, regardless of gas prices. As a result, some cars like the Civic, Corolla, etc, might still not do too bad in this economy. But a hybrid, and the price premium it carries, is going to be viewed as more of a luxury item.

Cars like the Prius also might have been over-sold back when gas was at its peak, pulling forward buyers who might have bought one, but just at a later date. So that could also partly explain why sales have fallen off so sharply.

Also, I'd think that something like a Prius isn't the type of car that people are going to trade in every few years. These are probably people who did the math, figured out their breakeven point, and intend to drive the car until it gets there. So while some cars, especially those with a high lease rate might commonly get replaced every 2-3 years or so, the typical Prius owner might hold onto their car longer. And that lower turnover is going to saturate the market more quickly.

nwng

the prius came out in japan in 97, had nothing to do with carb. The idea is to develope a low emission vehicle with great gas mileage. It is an evolutionary step towards a ev, I mean a practical ev

gagrice

the prius came out in japan in 97, had nothing to do with carb.

About 1990 CARB mandated 10% ZEV cars by 1998 in CA. Clinton authorized a few billion to build next generation cars in 1993. The money was only allocated to the Big 3. They did in fact come up with high mileage hybrids. Toyota went to Japan and got funding to also build a hybrid at the same time. The Big 3 showed off their hybrids in 2000. The Dodge intrepid ESX was being tested in 1997. There are many stories as to why they never built them. Most was related to the high cost of lightweight materials. These cars were all capable of 72-80 MPG. The Big 3 were also working on EVs to satisfy the CA mandate. The impracticality of the lead acid and NiMH EVs was soon apparent. And with the hybrids just around the corner CARB changed their mind. That gave Toyota a great opening for the Prius. I know for a fact they could not give them away to start with. I test drove one of the first ones in San Diego. I thought it was cool and it was being offered for $20k with a great 8 year B to B warranty. Wife hated it and that ended the Prius in my garage. The Big 3 lost out because they did not think it would ever sell. It did and Toyota got the jump on the Big 3.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/facts/favorites/fcvt_fotw128.html

boaz47

Thanks for pointing out how I came to my rant. They also stopped the EV program by Toyota after CARB dropped the Zero emissions standard and left those of us that believed they were doing the right thing sitting on the side of the road. By the way at the time when CARB mandated the zero emissions cars the Big three and Toyota told them they couldn't do it but, and this is the kicker, the could see their way into offering a gas electric hybrid. This was years before they introduced the Prius. Does it seem like maybe they already had the concept of the Prius in the pipeline? Once Toyota brought the Prius over here CARB folded like a cheap paper bag and GM even crushed all of the old EV-1s. Toyota stopped supporting the Rav-4 program. Now where is the reasoning off base? And now nine years later we are talking about EVs without a CARB mandate.

gagrice

They also stopped the EV program by Toyota after CARB dropped the Zero emissions standard and left those of us that believed they were doing the right thing sitting on the side of the road.

That is how it happened. Sadly the RAV4 EV was a decent vehicle. Those that have them are still going. Some have replaced the NiMH with Li-Ion batteries. As is still the case, the batteries are expensive and will need to come down a lot to bring EVs back to the forefront.

boaz47

Sure they cost too much but remember they sold the first Prius here at a net loss for the a year or two. They could have done the same thing with the Rav-4 EV. For now all I can hope for is a city car with California's low speed certification. I almost have my wife talked into a GEM or similar vehicle. Not that I don't get around town now without one. I will have more than 1000 miles on my Road Bike and 600 miles on my comfort bike (bicycles)before the year is out and I have only been riding since the middle of June. Like I said I lucked out and moved to a Bike friendly city.

gagrice

I should ride my bikes more often. I moved up here on the mountain. Going anywhere is downhill. It is coming back that is a killer for me. We have a lot of hardcore riders up here in Alpine on the weekends.

imscf

Today's NY Times report big drop in all auto sales for November, as buyers are postponing purchases due to the economy. Of the top 16 most popular cars and trucks, the only increase is in the Malibu (all models) 9,400 autos, or + 35%, and the most decrease was in the Prius, 8,600 sold, -48%.
The top five best sellers were: Ford Fseries (37,900, -18%), Chevy Silverado (29,500, -22%), Camry (25,200, -29%), Corolla (21,800, -13%), and Civic (17,700, -29%).

boaz47

You do live in a nice area. When I was up in Crestline / Lake Arrowhead I didn't ride much because of the same reasons. Getting anywhere was either up hill or getting home was up hill.

boaz47

"and the most decrease was in the Prius, 8,600 sold, -48%."

If that is the case I may have to reverse my earlier post. I simply didn't think it would effect hybrids anymore than other cars.

kdhspyder

Nobody is buying anything for the time being. Inventory is piling up across the board on every product. Nothing to see here, move on.

Oh did I mention currency currency currency .... again for the 27th time. The JY / US$ exchange rate stood at 94 / 1 yesterday !!!!! At this rate there is NO incentive at all to ship products form there to here. Every month this same subject comes up and every month I have to keep bringing up the reminder about the currency.

With the industry down 20-30% for the year it's pretty strong that Prius sales are down only 10% due to the super strong in spring and summer

PF_Flyer

http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2008/12/november-hybrid-sales-plunge-as- - -gas-prices-fall-credit-tightens.html

In sheer volume, Toyota's Prius was hardest hit.

Although still the industry leader with slightly more than half of all hybrid sales in November, Prius volume of 8,660 for the month was down 48.3 percent from 16,737 sold a year earlier and off 26.7 percent from 11,804 sold in October.

"It's just too expensive" when gas prices are low, said analyst Caldwell.

Not the time to be expecting higher ticket items to move big numbers.

boaz47

Interesting post, but some printed facts bother others more than they do some of us. I didn't take into account the higher price of hybrids in my origional post. I figured many were already committed to hybrids so they wouldn't suffer any more than any other car.

nwng

wow, it took a nosedive in prius numbers and a rocket shot in malibu (all models) numbers to have a 800 unit difference? malibu is suppose to be the savior of gm and their future bread and butter product. I consider it to be on par with the camcord. Tell me the malibu's number is incorrect.

gagrice

again for the 27th time. The JY / US$ exchange rate stood at 94 / 1 yesterday !!!!! At this rate there is NO incentive at all to ship products form there to here

I'm not buying that. Why are the hybrids stacked up on the dealers lots? Yaris is up in sales YTD. It takes up as much room on the ship as a Prius. I think cheap gas has tempered the average buyers willingness to spend $5k to $10k more for a car that only gives marginal increase in MPG. What will a Prius do that a $12k Yaris won't do? They get easy 40 MPG highway.