Well DUH - It's in the extra $3K cost of the hybrid over the non hybrid. If you're both saying that buyers won't PERCEIVE it as a premium then that I can agree with. They will also PERCEIVE that they're saving money overall based on lower fuel costs. But PERCEPTION is not REALITY.
I'm sorry but I'm a literal person. If you say there's no premium when there clearly is I have a problem with it. If you say there is a premium but nobody cares then that's fine.
After 8 yrs of addressing these concerns this key concept has proven itself valid.
Buyers in this price segment see the benefits of having the most fuel efficient vehicle in that price stratum. The vehicle makers know what they're doing in these pricing structures.
The Camry V6 loaded goes for $33000 MSRP ......... 268 HP The Camry Hybrid loaded goes for $32000 MSRP .... 187 HP The Camry I4 loaded goes for $31000 MSRP ........... 161 HP ( soon 179 HP )
I'd expect the FFH to have a similar structure.
All three have the same equipment, the only difference is the drive system. Buyers in this price stratum recognize that the hybrid overall is the less costly vehicle. You see the price premium ( vis-a-vis the I4 ) while I see the price discount ( vis-a-vis the V6 ). In addition when you add up all the estimated costs over the lives of these three vehicles the TCH comes out far lower overall.
Thus for the literally-minded not only is there NO PREMIUM but in fact there is a discount.
Buyers first of all classify themselves into price strata. A $40000 vehicle buyer will not consider a $14000 strippie outside of extraordinary circumstances. A $19000 buyer doesn't really 'shop' a Mercedes, he or she may look but they know that they don't belong there budget-wise
Speak for yourself. I seriously test drove a $18K used mustang GT and a $20K mercury cougar before buying a $38,000 Lincoln LS. I just wanted something fun to drive and price wasn't an issue (below $40K).
For those expecting to pay $25000 - $35000 for their next new vehicle any one of the hybrids is a great choice because it's less expensive overall than the other vehicles in that price range.
Now you've TOTALLY lost me again. Let's say I'm looking at a $30K Fusion that happens to be a hybrid. I can also get the EXACT SAME VEHICLE without the hybrid powertrain (2.5L I4) for $27K that still gets great fuel economy. So my choice is to get the non hybrid or pay $3K more for the hybrid version that gets much better fuel economy.
HOW DOES THAT MAKE THE HYBRID CHEAPER?? It might turn out to be cheaper 5 or 10 years down the road based on future fuel costs, but it costs more up front.
If you really want to save money buy a cheap econobox. But that's not what most people want. If you want a Fusion or Camry with the best fuel mileage or it just makes you happy to drive a hybrid then go for it. I just don't like to hear people use cost savings as a justification. It's similar to people trading in SUVs and losing thousands in depreciation just to save a few hundred dollars in fuel. Or spending $25K on a new car to save spending $2,500 to fix an old one. You have to look at the big picture.
There are cost savings overall in certain cases, for example in the case of the Camry ICE / TCH it's significant. Those savings of lack thereof are controlled by the vehicle makers as they structure their prices. The numbers are clear.
In the case of the Camry / TCH the savings are significant. In the case of the Matrix / Prius there are no savings, the two vehicles cost the same over a normal lifespan. In the case of the Highlander / HH the non-hybrid costs less overall significantly, by design. In the case of the Civic / HCH the hybrid costs somewhat less. In the case of the Escape / FEH the hybrid costs somewhat less.
You may be among the exceptions in your range of purchases. The bulk of the population doesn't have such a wide view.
Again there is no question that the two vehicles have different acquisition costs. But this view is too narrow to be valid. In the end the FFH will cost less to purchase and to operate than the non-hybrid version.
BTW, In the acquisition cost of the FFH did you factor in a potential Federal tax credit of $2500 - $3000 and/or many of the state tax credits available?
With the superior fuel economy and the superior resale value of the hybrids even without the tax credit(s) the total cost of ownership and operation are going to be lower....for normal driving and a normal ownership period.
For those expecting to pay $25000 - $35000 for their next new vehicle any one of the hybrids is a great choice because it's less expensive overall than the other vehicles in that price range. Ok, keep being like a dog with a bone if you must, but your literal interpretation is simply digging in your heels and not acknowledging that I am not comparing a hybrid Camry for example to an ICE Camry. Of course the hybrid costs more.
If I am spending $30K or so, I will look around at what that money will get me. The hybrid will go up against more expensive cars than the non-hybrid, because, given the extra equipment and tech on board, it is worth the extra dough and deserves to be compared with other vehicles that cost as much as it does. The hybrid is likely to have better resale, which in most cases takes care of the higher tariff at the beginning. And it is not just fuel costs you save. There are tax credits, and of course the operating costs are going to be lower than those of a Nissan Maxima or Audi A4.
As for your contention that you consider a wide range of prices and products, well so do I and so do lots of other people. I have a Suzuki, a VW and a used F150 and like them all. But I am telling you that if I consider buying a mid-size hybrid sedan, I am unlikely to compare it with the ICE version and say, "oh, I should get the ICE because it is cheaper." I am not interested in a 4 cylinder bread and butter mid-size sedan, and am only considering the hybrid one because of the hybrid powertrain and the stuff that goes with it. I may drive the Audi and others in that price range to make sure that I might not be more happy with the characteristics of another near luxury car in that price range, even if the mileage is lower. But I won't be looking at another used F150 and saying "F150? or hybrid?" Now, someone else might. We are all individuals.
But I can assure you that my spreadsheet comparisons of operating costs will not be between, say the Milan hybrid and Milan 4 cylinder, because I do not want a Milan 4 cylinder, so why run the numbers? I want the hybrid. If I bought the 6 cylinder ICE Milan, I could by your same thinking say that the 4 cylinder is less expensive overall (and therefore presumably should have been the one to buy). Yes, it is cheaper to buy and operate. So what? I don't want it.
This is what some of the other posters are pointing out by saying there is no premium. It depends on where you focus or what prespective you take of your universe. In addition, others have pointed out the tax advantage and resale factors in addition to lower fuel costs, for those who do make the ICE-hybrid comparison.
I've been kind of poking in and out for a while. I'm not in the market for a new car, still paying mine off. I haven't read all posts here so if this has been brought up before I'm sorry.
Curious about what people are saying about the prospect of having to replace the battery pack at some point in the car's useful life. I don't know how much the battery costs, but I venture to guess about $5k or thereabouts. I'd be interested to see what people think about having a non-hybrid car that eventually is paid off vs. having a hybrid that, while paid off (eventually), will require a replacement battery as all batteries die.
If I'm confusing I apologize, but I'd be curious to know.
I guess I wasn't clear. When I say there is a premium for the hybrid all I mean is you have to may more up front for the hybrid powertrain. Even if the MSRP difference is only $2K (no way it's less than that if you're comparing apples to apples) you have to figure that you can get another $2K in discounts on the ICE compared to the hybrid at MSRP or above. So the real world difference is more like $4k. It could be even less than that but it depends on the vehicle.
You then have to take into account a lot of other factors - insurance, finance charges, resale value (which depends on how long you keep it), tax credits, maintenance and fuel costs - to see which one is cheaper. I admit that if the upfront costs are low and there are tax credits then the hybrid may pay off in just a few years - but it depends.
This all assumes that you've decided you want to buy a TCH or FFH and the only question is whether you should get the hybrid or the I4 ICE, which is exactly what I would be doing since I'd pick the car I wanted first, then evaluate powertrain options.
If you're not willing to consider an ICE powertrain at all then it's a moot point anyway. Which I guess is what you guys are trying to say. If I wanted a hybrid then I'd buy one but I wouldn't try to rationalize it as being cheaper because there are always cheaper alternatives.
I'm done. Buy whatever you want and rationalize it any way that makes you feel better.
Re: the batteries, Toyota says they're proving to be very long-lived, life of the car kind of thing. One big advantage of hybrids over pure EVs is the ability to optimize the charge-discharge cycles. I think the Prius battery price is now around 3K, and it's guaranteed for 100k (150k in CA, I think).
I think that may be WAY too broad a brush with which to paint that segment. If you preferenced it 'In my area it appears.....'
In this area that there are a lot of well-off middle aged women buyers, but also there are a lot of professionals - especially doctors, a HUGE segment of retirees, but the the majority is probably active military and ex-military families - mostly officers.
Yes the one of the fears of these first-time buyers is 'how long will the battery last?'. The data shows that there is no reason ever to have to replace the battery. Like anything else take care of it and it should last the life of the vehicle.
I disagree, that's all. They all do wonderfully on the highway.
Probably they are ideal for your kind of 55-65 MPH level highways. On the other coast we have many highways posted up to 75 MPH with 8% grades. Cross winds that shut truck & RV traffic down for days at a time. I would say a vehicle like a Prius is marginal under those conditions. I would expect the Fusion hybrid to be good for all highway travel.
If the economy stays in the tank and the Fusion Hybrid follows the Escape Hybrid it will be a big premium.
My brother in law just purchased a 2008 Escape AWD Limited in November. They wanted the Escape Hybrid. The only Escape hybrids available were 2009 models. They paid right at $22k for the loaded V6 Limited and Drew Ford would not go below $32k for the AWD Hybrid Limited. I doubt the hybrid will perform as well as the V6 and mileage is only marginally better. They are getting about 21 MPG with the car and love it.
They take about 3 trips per year to Washington where their son lives. They did not figure the 3 MPG highway gain with the hybrid was worth $10 grand.
gary says, "I would say a vehicle like a Prius is marginal under those conditions. I would expect the Fusion hybrid to be good for all highway travel. "
What "areas on the other coast" are you talking about? Mountain ranges?
Why would a fusion, which is far less aerodynamic than a Prius, do better in high winds?
Crosswinds don't care much about front to back aerodynamics. Some of the more egg-shaped small cars are actually not so good in crosswinds. The Fusion hybrid is wider and weighs more. It will likely be better in crosswinds than the Prius.
My point is that anyone using the "well, I might get caught in severe crosswinds one or two times in my life, so maybe I ought to choose the Fusion/Milan over the Prius" decision point is a complete idiot.
You are a funny guy. Even using your 29 MPG for the hybrid and saving 38% it would take nearly 200,000 miles and over 12 years to make up that difference. That is with gas selling for $4 per gallon. At today's gas prices it would take 400,000 miles and 25 years to recoup that $10k. The real point is he just retired and will probably put less than 10k miles per year on the vehicle. There is not a chance he screwed up.
The only reason I think he screwed up is it is too small. I was crowded in the back seat when he picked us up at the airport. He traded in his 2006 Explorer which turned out to be a much bigger gas hog than the 1996 Explorer he had before. Like me and my Suburban he was sad he ever traded the 1996 Explorer for a new one. Vehicles are just not as good as they were in the 1990s. At least the ones I have owned.
to choose the Fusion/Milan over the Prius" decision point is a complete idiot.
That is a harsh thing to say for a desert rat like yourself. I would not want to leave the city limits of Phoenix in a Prius. AZ where the wind blows most of the time.
Why would a fusion, which is far less aerodynamic than a Prius, do better in high winds?
I assume you are joking again. I have never read a review of the Prius that did not complain about the nasty way it handles in a crosswind. I have watched one slow down to under 40 miles per hour in a 70 MPH zone on Interstate 8 because the wind was whipping him around like a leaf. Being aerodynamic does not mean it is stable. Remember airplanes are that way to get lift. That is what happens with the Prius it gets light in the front end when it gets in a crosswind. Where is Nader when you need him. He needs to do an update to Unsafe at any speed. :shades:
Have anyone of you EVER been forced off the road because of crosswinds????
You have led a sheltered life. I have stopped near Palm Springs in my Suburban and found a shelter until the wind died down. Two reasons you can get blown off the highway and your car will be sandblasted. Coming back in my Mercedes Sprinter from AZ we were all stopped by the Highway Patrol on Interstate 8 in any high profile vehicle. Semis were lined up for miles waiting out the wind. It is very common on I8 from the AZ border to just about where I live in Alpine. About a 200 mile stretch.
Having driven the Prius for 100,000+ mi now and the hybrid Camry for several very long trips I'd agree the the TCH and the FHH will both be better on the highway than the Prius. The wind buffeting is a minor issue except for the most sensitive.
However ( this is my own opinion only ) since the Prius was developed as a JDM vehicle with a view toward that type of slow-and-go driving I feel that the 1.5L engine is on the small side for the weight and size of the vehicle. As you note it's great at 50-65 mph but the efficiency drops off significantly at 75-ish mph. This is the reason IMO that the new Gen 3 will get the 1.8L engine with a combined hp rating of 160 HP.
The TCH on the other hand uses the 2.4L + HSD and it effortlessly gets 38-39 mpg at 75-ish mph - at least in my own anecdotal experience . The ICE is better matched to the vehicle for higher speed driving.
A friend at work recounted how his Z-71 was blown into the next lane on I-30 in Fort Worth. The winds, especially from the north, really whip in between the buildings down town. Luckily, there was no one in the lane next to him.
lars, maybe you don't know that the FEH is a low volume vehicle. my wife wants one, but there a NONE to be found for hundreds of miles from me. the dealers around here all say the same thing. 6 months to get one and it's MSRP. there are plenty in SO CAL. one dealer has a couple dozen of the exact vehicle she is looking for. discount from the MSRP to 32k would more than enough to pay for a couple of plane tickets, but it is a stretch overall.
me, forced off the road by wind? no, but i have seen plenty of others who have. sometimes it is the wind combined with slick roads. i do drive a fusion.
Well, your bro-in-law is not a very good shopper if he said, "OK,
He is a horrible shopper. I try to coach him. He just wants to go in and sign on the line. Been going to the same Ford dealer for 30 years or more. He should never trade either. There is NO WAY you will ever get top dollar from a dealer. You trade you get screwed simple as that. Unless of course the car is ready for the $1000 California buyout due to smog failure.
The pricing I can't estimate but Ford has already announced that the FFH won't be sold all over the country. It will be targetted to certain 'hot spot' markets which will get regular supplies. Other markets may get an ocassional or even no vehicles at all.
Ford, until it's JV with Johnson Controls/SAFT comes on stream, is limited on the supply of battery components it can secure.
Of course you won't get top dollar from a dealer on a trade-in. You'll only get wholesale value (maybe slightly more if it's a desirable vehicle the dealer wants). Look at it this way - the dealer's used car dept. can go to the auction and buy any vehicle they want at auction prices (wholesale). Their only business is to sell and make money off used cars. Why would they pay you more and reduce their profits?
If you get more than wholesale then the difference is coming out of the new vehicle price, with a few rare exceptions. It's no different than taking your vehicle and selling it at auction (which is quick and easy and a guaranteed sale).
Just trying to point out that the dealer isn't "screwing" anybody on trade-ins (in most cases). You just have to understand that you're only getting wholesale value and that can also be affected by current inventory levels. If there is a glut of used explorers sitting on the lot and in the auctions then they won't bring very much. If a used vehicle is in high demand and short supply then the wholesale price goes up.
Why would they pay you more and reduce their profits?
I only look at it from the customers viewpoint. There is a good argument for the dealer also. I just do not subscribe to the easy transaction that costs the consumer $thousands$ of dollars. I have done very well selling 4 vehicles on Craigslist over the last 3 years. It amounted to about $20k in my pocket instead of the dealers. So I did not allow myself to get "screwed" out of that money for an easy transaction. Not everyone has the patience to list a vehicle every week on Craigslist for a year until a buyer comes along.
Just trying to point out that the dealer isn't "screwing" anybody on trade-ins (in most cases).
In my last attempt to trade in a vehicle, I was offered about $6k under Edmund's wholesale figure for my like new vehicle. And I graded it "Good" not outstanding as it actually was. So if I was easy that GMC dealer would have SCREWED me royal. I ended up selling the truck on Craigslist for $7k more than the dealer offered. They would have made a profit on the Denali I was interested in. Glad I did not buy it. I got a much better deal on a superior Sequoia, by not getting in a hurry.
The issue is, will there be any good deals on a Fusion Hybrid. If they control the distribution as they have with the Escape Hybrid, I would guess NO GOOD DEALS.
That's the difference between wholesale and retail. The dealer knows how much your truck would go for at auction. It's entirely possible your truck, at auction in your area at that time was only worth what the dealer offered - or they believed that's all they could get for it at auction. Wholesale price varies greatly depending on supply and demand.
It is possible the dealer was simply lowballing you but if that was the case then they should have increased their offer when you didn't accept the lowball price.
Trading in is selling wholesale and really no different than taking the vehicle to the auction - you get market price and it may be really low. Selling it yourself retail is a totally different story - you just have to find one buyer willing to buy it.
I'm not arguing that selling it yourself is better - it almost always is. But that doesn't mean that a dealer offering a low trade-in price is ripping you off. Maybe the dealer already had 10 of that type of vehicle and just didn't want another one.
If you really want to get a reasonable trade-in price, go let carmax appraise it for you. They'll buy it from you (wholesale of course) without purchasing another vehicle, so what they offer will be a good indication of what the vehicle is actually worth.
I have no doubt the GMC dealer could have sold my year and half old Sierra Hybrid for top dollar. When he came in with $16k against MSRP on the Denali, I knew we would never get close. As a Certified truck with only 13k miles it should have brought him $27k easy. I got $23k and get emails from the guy up in LA telling me how much he loves that truck. We are both happy. With the GMC deal only the dealer would be happy. By waiting till near the end of 2007 I got my Sequoia limited 4X4 at $10k under MSRP. Last year for the best vehicle Toyota ever built. I would not give a nickel for the new model Sequoia. Probably going to sell this one and get a BMW X5 diesel soon. Maybe some day I will be totally happy with a vehicle. So far does not look like it.
I thought this was the place to get specifics about these vehicles. I understand that the hybird system would be about different, resulting in better mileage than Escape/Mariner hybrid. Instead, it seems most of the posting are about people being pushed off the road by wind, trade in values, etc. Where can I go to info on these cars? The lack of availability of Ford's hybrids is part of their economic woes. Instead of getting these out, they seem to have little interest in selling them. Instead they keep pushing SUVs and big trucks. They need to get their act together, if not, let them fail.
Instead they keep pushing SUVs and big trucks. They need to get their act together, if not, let them fail.
We're discussing Ford here, not GM. :shades: Ford at least HAS a hybrid, and sells it in the places most likely to want it...primarily CARB states it looks like. They're getting away from the big SUVs, especially with the new Fusion.
Well, you can ask a specific question and get it answered - that's usually how forums work. So, what's your question?
The lack of availability of Ford's hybrids is part of their economic woes. Instead of getting these out, they seem to have little interest in selling them. Instead they keep pushing SUVs and big trucks. They need to get their act together, if not, let them fail.
Wrong. Ford's Escape hybrid lost money until this year. And while they will be profitable from now on the profit margin can't be very big. I'm sure they make more off of a fully loaded non-hybrid model.
And the reason they are only selling 25,000 hybrid Fusions/Milans is because that's all the batteries they can get. Toyota pretty much cornered the battery market and there are few alternative resources available. Now that they're profitable Ford would love to build and sell more Fusion hybrids but they can't get enough batteries right now.
Even so - they'll make more off of the non-hybrids, so I'm not sure why you think they need more hybrids or they'll fail - probably just the opposite. Although the publicity and buzz from the FFH will probably help overall sales.
Well, great. Of the four cars in the CD comparison, the Fusion and Altima aren't likely available here in DFW (at a reasonable price, at least) and the Malibu's nothing special...back to the Camry, I guess...
With all the FEH taxi cabs I've seen out there, and reports of them swarming all over New York City where they are put to best use, I don't see them as a low-volume vehicle, as some posters up above have alleged. And, yes, hybrids belong in usage where they see over 15,000 miles per year. Some will try to buy them as "toys", doing very little actual driving with them, but high-MPG vehicles like Priuses, FEH, and the Fusion hybrid will hopefully be available to high-use fleets to make the most impact on the nation's gasoline consumption.
I agree with the advantage the Fusion hybrid will have in being a much better handling and robust vehicle than the wimpy Prius. I could get rid of the Prius's electric motors & batteries, put in a smaller engine, get the same overall 0-60 accel times, and probably get an EPA 33 city/ 42 hiway easily in a much cheaper vehicle. (Let me keep the start/stop engine tech.) That body Prius's come in accounts for a lot of the MPG increase (tiny wheels, narrow body).
what i mean by low volume is due the lack of capacity to make large numbers of them. i also think that all those hybrid FEH taxi's running around NYC are the reason why so few are for sale at the retail level in my region (however ford defines that). as i posted earlier, there are plenty available for retail for sale in SO CAL. if i recall correctly, ford builds about 25k FEH's anually. the FFH is expected to be produced at about the same level, for now.
I would say the Camry Hybrid is your best choice. You should get a near invoice deal on one. I checked the first two dealers in San Diego out of 9 dealers and they have 40 Camry Hybrids on their lots. Mossy Toyota has 106 Prius. So you can probably name your price on a Toyota hybrid about now.
Who would have thought that you have to pay MSRP or above and get on a waiting list for a Ford while Toyotas are selling at invoice and sitting on the lot gathering dust.
You have to be a Ford salesman. I do wish you all the best. I think that Ford will come out the winner on the Domestic front. They have the only domestic vehicles I would consider. If you have any stroke get them to put a 4 cylinder diesel in the Flex and you have sold me. I like a functional looking vehicle. I hate most of the styles on the market today. I would probably be most interested in an Expedition with a 6 cylinder diesel. That would be more my idea of the way to go. I don't see a luxury hybrid worth having on the market.
I agree with the advantage the Fusion hybrid will have in being a much better handling and robust vehicle than the wimpy Prius. I could get rid of the Prius's electric motors & batteries, put in a smaller engine, get the same overall 0-60 accel times, and probably get an EPA 33 city/ 42 hiway easily in a much cheaper vehicle. (Let me keep the start/stop engine tech.) That body Prius's come in accounts for a lot of the MPG increase (tiny wheels, narrow body).
This is false.
I can tell from what you wrote that you've never been shown just how they operate nor how quick they are nor what the real acceleration is. Keeping abreast of news is one of the best features of this site, but you're 5 yrs out of date on your misconceptions. Hey they've only been out for 8 yrs so that's not too bad.
Wrong on the acceleration Wrong on the theory that a smaller motor in a 2800 lb vehicle would get better fuel economy. You'd propose a 1.3L engine? Wrong on 'small wheels'
It's a 2900 pound vehicle with the hybrid system. You can't seriously be implying that the battery pack, electric motors, etc, only weigh 100 lbs? Shrink the weight that much and the Prius may just get high 30s on a 1.5L engine.
67.9 in is pretty narrow for a midsize vehicle. It's narrower that a Civic or Elantra, in fact. Also, it uses 15 inch wheels with an option for 16 inchers. In the midsize category, 16 inch wheels is the typical base these days, with 17 inch wheels as an upgrade option. 15 inch wheels are small, whether in a compact or midsize.
Comments
I'm sorry but I'm a literal person. If you say there's no premium when there clearly is I have a problem with it. If you say there is a premium but nobody cares then that's fine.
After 8 yrs of addressing these concerns this key concept has proven itself valid.
Buyers in this price segment see the benefits of having the most fuel efficient vehicle in that price stratum. The vehicle makers know what they're doing in these pricing structures.
The Camry V6 loaded goes for $33000 MSRP ......... 268 HP
The Camry Hybrid loaded goes for $32000 MSRP .... 187 HP
The Camry I4 loaded goes for $31000 MSRP ........... 161 HP ( soon 179 HP )
I'd expect the FFH to have a similar structure.
All three have the same equipment, the only difference is the drive system. Buyers in this price stratum recognize that the hybrid overall is the less costly vehicle. You see the price premium ( vis-a-vis the I4 ) while I see the price discount ( vis-a-vis the V6 ). In addition when you add up all the estimated costs over the lives of these three vehicles the TCH comes out far lower overall.
Thus for the literally-minded not only is there NO PREMIUM but in fact there is a discount.
Buyers first of all classify themselves into price strata. A $40000 vehicle buyer will not consider a $14000 strippie outside of extraordinary circumstances. A $19000 buyer doesn't really 'shop' a Mercedes, he or she may look but they know that they don't belong there budget-wise
Speak for yourself. I seriously test drove a $18K used mustang GT and a $20K mercury cougar before buying a $38,000 Lincoln LS. I just wanted something fun to drive and price wasn't an issue (below $40K).
For those expecting to pay $25000 - $35000 for their next new vehicle any one of the hybrids is a great choice because it's less expensive overall than the other vehicles in that price range.
Now you've TOTALLY lost me again. Let's say I'm looking at a $30K Fusion that happens to be a hybrid. I can also get the EXACT SAME VEHICLE without the hybrid powertrain (2.5L I4) for $27K that still gets great fuel economy. So my choice is to get the non hybrid or pay $3K more for the hybrid version that gets much better fuel economy.
HOW DOES THAT MAKE THE HYBRID CHEAPER?? It might turn out to be cheaper 5 or 10 years down the road based on future fuel costs, but it costs more up front.
There are cost savings overall in certain cases, for example in the case of the Camry ICE / TCH it's significant. Those savings of lack thereof are controlled by the vehicle makers as they structure their prices. The numbers are clear.
In the case of the Camry / TCH the savings are significant.
In the case of the Matrix / Prius there are no savings, the two vehicles cost the same over a normal lifespan.
In the case of the Highlander / HH the non-hybrid costs less overall significantly, by design.
In the case of the Civic / HCH the hybrid costs somewhat less.
In the case of the Escape / FEH the hybrid costs somewhat less.
Again there is no question that the two vehicles have different acquisition costs. But this view is too narrow to be valid. In the end the FFH will cost less to purchase and to operate than the non-hybrid version.
BTW, In the acquisition cost of the FFH did you factor in a potential Federal tax credit of $2500 - $3000 and/or many of the state tax credits available?
With the superior fuel economy and the superior resale value of the hybrids even without the tax credit(s) the total cost of ownership and operation are going to be lower....for normal driving and a normal ownership period.
If I am spending $30K or so, I will look around at what that money will get me. The hybrid will go up against more expensive cars than the non-hybrid, because, given the extra equipment and tech on board, it is worth the extra dough and deserves to be compared with other vehicles that cost as much as it does. The hybrid is likely to have better resale, which in most cases takes care of the higher tariff at the beginning. And it is not just fuel costs you save. There are tax credits, and of course the operating costs are going to be lower than those of a Nissan Maxima or Audi A4.
As for your contention that you consider a wide range of prices and products, well so do I and so do lots of other people. I have a Suzuki, a VW and a used F150 and like them all. But I am telling you that if I consider buying a mid-size hybrid sedan, I am unlikely to compare it with the ICE version and say, "oh, I should get the ICE because it is cheaper." I am not interested in a 4 cylinder bread and butter mid-size sedan, and am only considering the hybrid one because of the hybrid powertrain and the stuff that goes with it. I may drive the Audi and others in that price range to make sure that I might not be more happy with the characteristics of another near luxury car in that price range, even if the mileage is lower. But I won't be looking at another used F150 and saying "F150? or hybrid?" Now, someone else might. We are all individuals.
But I can assure you that my spreadsheet comparisons of operating costs will not be between, say the Milan hybrid and Milan 4 cylinder, because I do not want a Milan 4 cylinder, so why run the numbers? I want the hybrid. If I bought the 6 cylinder ICE Milan, I could by your same thinking say that the 4 cylinder is less expensive overall (and therefore presumably should have been the one to buy). Yes, it is cheaper to buy and operate. So what? I don't want it.
This is what some of the other posters are pointing out by saying there is no premium. It depends on where you focus or what prespective you take of your universe. In addition, others have pointed out the tax advantage and resale factors in addition to lower fuel costs, for those who do make the ICE-hybrid comparison.
Curious about what people are saying about the prospect of having to replace the battery pack at some point in the car's useful life. I don't know how much the battery costs, but I venture to guess about $5k or thereabouts. I'd be interested to see what people think about having a non-hybrid car that eventually is paid off vs. having a hybrid that, while paid off (eventually), will require a replacement battery as all batteries die.
If I'm confusing I apologize, but I'd be curious to know.
You then have to take into account a lot of other factors - insurance, finance charges, resale value (which depends on how long you keep it), tax credits, maintenance and fuel costs - to see which one is cheaper. I admit that if the upfront costs are low and there are tax credits then the hybrid may pay off in just a few years - but it depends.
This all assumes that you've decided you want to buy a TCH or FFH and the only question is whether you should get the hybrid or the I4 ICE, which is exactly what I would be doing since I'd pick the car I wanted first, then evaluate powertrain options.
If you're not willing to consider an ICE powertrain at all then it's a moot point anyway. Which I guess is what you guys are trying to say. If I wanted a hybrid then I'd buy one but I wouldn't try to rationalize it as being cheaper because there are always cheaper alternatives.
I'm done. Buy whatever you want and rationalize it any way that makes you feel better.
In this area that there are a lot of well-off middle aged women buyers, but also there are a lot of professionals - especially doctors, a HUGE segment of retirees, but the the majority is probably active military and ex-military families - mostly officers.
Yes the one of the fears of these first-time buyers is 'how long will the battery last?'. The data shows that there is no reason ever to have to replace the battery. Like anything else take care of it and it should last the life of the vehicle.
Probably they are ideal for your kind of 55-65 MPH level highways. On the other coast we have many highways posted up to 75 MPH with 8% grades. Cross winds that shut truck & RV traffic down for days at a time. I would say a vehicle like a Prius is marginal under those conditions. I would expect the Fusion hybrid to be good for all highway travel.
My brother in law just purchased a 2008 Escape AWD Limited in November. They wanted the Escape Hybrid. The only Escape hybrids available were 2009 models. They paid right at $22k for the loaded V6 Limited and Drew Ford would not go below $32k for the AWD Hybrid Limited. I doubt the hybrid will perform as well as the V6 and mileage is only marginally better. They are getting about 21 MPG with the car and love it.
They take about 3 trips per year to Washington where their son lives. They did not figure the 3 MPG highway gain with the hybrid was worth $10 grand.
So he is polluting more and paying more for fuel, but has a lower monthly payment.
He could have gotten about 38% better mileage with the Hybrid.
Tell him he screwed up. LOL !!!
What "areas on the other coast" are you talking about? Mountain ranges?
Why would a fusion, which is far less aerodynamic than a Prius, do better in high winds?
Have anyone of you EVER been forced off the road because of crosswinds????
Ever? In any vehicle?
Doing a lot of wheel corrections v. doing fewer (or even no more at all) is what we are talking about here.
You are a funny guy. Even using your 29 MPG for the hybrid and saving 38% it would take nearly 200,000 miles and over 12 years to make up that difference. That is with gas selling for $4 per gallon. At today's gas prices it would take 400,000 miles and 25 years to recoup that $10k. The real point is he just retired and will probably put less than 10k miles per year on the vehicle. There is not a chance he screwed up.
The only reason I think he screwed up is it is too small. I was crowded in the back seat when he picked us up at the airport. He traded in his 2006 Explorer which turned out to be a much bigger gas hog than the 1996 Explorer he had before. Like me and my Suburban he was sad he ever traded the 1996 Explorer for a new one. Vehicles are just not as good as they were in the 1990s. At least the ones I have owned.
That is a harsh thing to say for a desert rat like yourself. I would not want to leave the city limits of Phoenix in a Prius. AZ where the wind blows most of the time.
I assume you are joking again. I have never read a review of the Prius that did not complain about the nasty way it handles in a crosswind. I have watched one slow down to under 40 miles per hour in a 70 MPH zone on Interstate 8 because the wind was whipping him around like a leaf. Being aerodynamic does not mean it is stable. Remember airplanes are that way to get lift. That is what happens with the Prius it gets light in the front end when it gets in a crosswind. Where is Nader when you need him. He needs to do an update to Unsafe at any speed. :shades:
You have led a sheltered life. I have stopped near Palm Springs in my Suburban and found a shelter until the wind died down. Two reasons you can get blown off the highway and your car will be sandblasted. Coming back in my Mercedes Sprinter from AZ we were all stopped by the Highway Patrol on Interstate 8 in any high profile vehicle. Semis were lined up for miles waiting out the wind. It is very common on I8 from the AZ border to just about where I live in Alpine. About a 200 mile stretch.
Any others?
He could have got one for far less money with a little footwork and a few internet quote requests.
However ( this is my own opinion only ) since the Prius was developed as a JDM vehicle with a view toward that type of slow-and-go driving I feel that the 1.5L engine is on the small side for the weight and size of the vehicle. As you note it's great at 50-65 mph but the efficiency drops off significantly at 75-ish mph. This is the reason IMO that the new Gen 3 will get the 1.8L engine with a combined hp rating of 160 HP.
The TCH on the other hand uses the 2.4L + HSD and it effortlessly gets 38-39 mpg at 75-ish mph - at least in my own anecdotal experience
I assume that the FHH will be the same.
my wife wants one, but there a NONE to be found for hundreds of miles from me.
the dealers around here all say the same thing. 6 months to get one and it's MSRP.
there are plenty in SO CAL. one dealer has a couple dozen of the exact vehicle she is looking for. discount from the MSRP to 32k would more than enough to pay for a couple of plane tickets, but it is a stretch overall.
That's my worry with the FFH - it may only be $3k more msrp, but it could be $6k more transaction price. THAT'S a premium I won't pay!
sometimes it is the wind combined with slick roads.
i do drive a fusion.
He is a horrible shopper. I try to coach him. He just wants to go in and sign on the line. Been going to the same Ford dealer for 30 years or more. He should never trade either. There is NO WAY you will ever get top dollar from a dealer. You trade you get screwed simple as that. Unless of course the car is ready for the $1000 California buyout due to smog failure.
Ford, until it's JV with Johnson Controls/SAFT comes on stream, is limited on the supply of battery components it can secure.
If you get more than wholesale then the difference is coming out of the new vehicle price, with a few rare exceptions. It's no different than taking your vehicle and selling it at auction (which is quick and easy and a guaranteed sale).
Just trying to point out that the dealer isn't "screwing" anybody on trade-ins (in most cases). You just have to understand that you're only getting wholesale value and that can also be affected by current inventory levels. If there is a glut of used explorers sitting on the lot and in the auctions then they won't bring very much. If a used vehicle is in high demand and short supply then the wholesale price goes up.
I only look at it from the customers viewpoint. There is a good argument for the dealer also. I just do not subscribe to the easy transaction that costs the consumer $thousands$ of dollars. I have done very well selling 4 vehicles on Craigslist over the last 3 years. It amounted to about $20k in my pocket instead of the dealers. So I did not allow myself to get "screwed" out of that money for an easy transaction. Not everyone has the patience to list a vehicle every week on Craigslist for a year until a buyer comes along.
Just trying to point out that the dealer isn't "screwing" anybody on trade-ins (in most cases).
In my last attempt to trade in a vehicle, I was offered about $6k under Edmund's wholesale figure for my like new vehicle. And I graded it "Good" not outstanding as it actually was. So if I was easy that GMC dealer would have SCREWED me royal. I ended up selling the truck on Craigslist for $7k more than the dealer offered. They would have made a profit on the Denali I was interested in. Glad I did not buy it. I got a much better deal on a superior Sequoia, by not getting in a hurry.
The issue is, will there be any good deals on a Fusion Hybrid. If they control the distribution as they have with the Escape Hybrid, I would guess NO GOOD DEALS.
It is possible the dealer was simply lowballing you but if that was the case then they should have increased their offer when you didn't accept the lowball price.
Trading in is selling wholesale and really no different than taking the vehicle to the auction - you get market price and it may be really low. Selling it yourself retail is a totally different story - you just have to find one buyer willing to buy it.
I'm not arguing that selling it yourself is better - it almost always is. But that doesn't mean that a dealer offering a low trade-in price is ripping you off. Maybe the dealer already had 10 of that type of vehicle and just didn't want another one.
If you really want to get a reasonable trade-in price, go let carmax appraise it for you. They'll buy it from you (wholesale of course) without purchasing another vehicle, so what they offer will be a good indication of what the vehicle is actually worth.
The lack of availability of Ford's hybrids is part of their economic woes. Instead of getting these out, they seem to have little interest in selling them. Instead they keep pushing SUVs and big trucks. They need to get their act together, if not, let them fail.
We're discussing Ford here, not GM. :shades: Ford at least HAS a hybrid, and sells it in the places most likely to want it...primarily CARB states it looks like. They're getting away from the big SUVs, especially with the new Fusion.
Well, you can ask a specific question and get it answered - that's usually how forums work. So, what's your question?
The lack of availability of Ford's hybrids is part of their economic woes. Instead of getting these out, they seem to have little interest in selling them. Instead they keep pushing SUVs and big trucks. They need to get their act together, if not, let them fail.
Wrong. Ford's Escape hybrid lost money until this year. And while they will be profitable from now on the profit margin can't be very big. I'm sure they make more off of a fully loaded non-hybrid model.
And the reason they are only selling 25,000 hybrid Fusions/Milans is because that's all the batteries they can get. Toyota pretty much cornered the battery market and there are few alternative resources available. Now that they're profitable Ford would love to build and sell more Fusion hybrids but they can't get enough batteries right now.
Even so - they'll make more off of the non-hybrids, so I'm not sure why you think they need more hybrids or they'll fail - probably just the opposite. Although the publicity and buzz from the FFH will probably help overall sales.
Until they can get their JV with Johnson Controls/SAFT on line making batteries primarily for Ford vehicles they will be hamstrung.
I agree with the advantage the Fusion hybrid will have in being a much better handling and robust vehicle than the wimpy Prius. I could get rid of the Prius's electric motors & batteries, put in a smaller engine, get the same overall 0-60 accel times, and probably get an EPA 33 city/ 42 hiway easily in a much cheaper vehicle. (Let me keep the start/stop engine tech.) That body Prius's come in accounts for a lot of the MPG increase (tiny wheels, narrow body).
i also think that all those hybrid FEH taxi's running around NYC are the reason why so few are for sale at the retail level in my region (however ford defines that).
as i posted earlier, there are plenty available for retail for sale in SO CAL.
if i recall correctly, ford builds about 25k FEH's anually.
the FFH is expected to be produced at about the same level, for now.
I would say the Camry Hybrid is your best choice. You should get a near invoice deal on one. I checked the first two dealers in San Diego out of 9 dealers and they have 40 Camry Hybrids on their lots. Mossy Toyota has 106 Prius. So you can probably name your price on a Toyota hybrid about now.
My goodness, how times have changed.....
This is false.
I can tell from what you wrote that you've never been shown just how they operate nor how quick they are nor what the real acceleration is. Keeping abreast of news is one of the best features of this site, but you're 5 yrs out of date on your misconceptions. Hey they've only been out for 8 yrs so that's not too bad.
Wrong on the acceleration
Wrong on the theory that a smaller motor in a 2800 lb vehicle would get better fuel economy. You'd propose a 1.3L engine?
Wrong on 'small wheels'
C'mon stay up to date. :shades:
67.9 in is pretty narrow for a midsize vehicle. It's narrower that a Civic or Elantra, in fact. Also, it uses 15 inch wheels with an option for 16 inchers. In the midsize category, 16 inch wheels is the typical base these days, with 17 inch wheels as an upgrade option. 15 inch wheels are small, whether in a compact or midsize.
You were saying?