Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan Hybrid

akirby

I understand your point and agree with most of your observations, but the sad truth is the average driver (which is the vast majority) does not have the skill or presence of mind to avoid an accident, so having better steering and handling really doesn't matter. All they know is to stand on the brakes and pray. We need driver TRAINING in this country, not just driver education. But then what do you expect from people who can't obey a simple traffic sign that says "keep moving" at an intersection?

wvgasguy

Don't take any of this as an insult

When one is as ignorant as myself about the technical design of an automobile it's difficult to be insulted. We're all fortunate to have access to your wealth of knowledge about the FFH.

scape2

about Fusion Hybrid by U.S. News and world report give it rave reviews. Looks like these Hybrids are going to be a hit even before they make the showroom floors. My worry is dealers are going to be asking way over what Ford recommends. This could back fire on Ford and make some consumers very unhappy. Ford needs to make sure they balance demand with supply very carefully. If a consumer cannot go to another Ford dealer and find a Hybrid Fusion they are looking for for a decent price it is going to give Ford a bad name. I have an 06 SEL V6, I'm waiting 2 years to trade my Fusion in for a Hybrid. Hope by then all the hype will have died down, along with prices..

kdhspyder

They can't do anything until they get more battery and hybrid component capacity. They are limited to 2000 units per month for all the Ford stores in the country ( ~4000? ). That math is easy.

I believe that I heard that Ford was going to concentrate the sales on certain 'hot spot markets' only. Boston, NY/NJ, DC/MD/NoVA, Chi, DFW, SoCal and NorCal.

The rest of the country?....errrr, buy a plane ticket.

wvgasguy

My worry is dealers are going to be asking way over what Ford recommends.

I noticed that Fitzmall has their TCH's at almost $5000 off MSRP. Even if you think the FFH is a better car, would you pay MSRP+ when the TCH is discounted? $5000 less for a somewhat compariable car would buy a lot of gas for a hybrid.

There is a lot more competition now than what the TCH had when it first arrived. Even though there may be an early shortage when they hit the floor I can't imaging Ford being able to get a stiff premium.

texases

"I noticed that Fitzmall has their TCH's at almost $5000 off MSRP."

Not just Fitzmall - had a TCH advertised for $5000 off MSRP in Dallas. May have been a one-off loss leader ($33k list, loaded), but it's the first time I've see one discounted in the local paper.

coldcranker

Referring to the cheaper TCHs advertised, it could be the old bait-and-switch trick crooked dealers use when advertising. Still, if the TCH is being discounted, say, $3,000 less than a Fusion Hybrid, it might be worth it, even though its steering feels like stirring oatmeal and fuel economy isn't as good.

wvgasguy

Fitzmall actually have their whole allotment priced at $5K off. They have several. Even the Prius is discounted significantly. I guess when times are tough even Toyota has to compete.

kdhspyder

On the E Coast Fitzmall and Laurel CarMax are the two that everyone 'shops' first online. The internet prices are almost always at invoice or below. Just call them and tell them which stock number you want and they'll pick you up in that car at one of the DC/Balt airports. You can sign the papers in the car and drive it away.

The sales person catchs a cab back to work.

LLBean for auto buyers.

bigt

I read that the batteries in the FFH will be 10 years, 150k miles. There have been serveral tested at over 300k miles without any issues.

michaeldoherty

The Prius is getting discounted because the new Prius is due out in a few months. It's still one of the top 10 selling cars in the country, so it's hard to place the discount on the tough times.

akirby

They're discounting the Prius because it isn't selling. Nothing is selling right now and most people looking for one wouldn't know that a new one is coming in a few months. The average car buyer doesn't go to car shows or read car magazines.

bigt

Hi, went to the DC auto show on Sunday. The weather was mid-60's and the place was packed. The largest crowd on the Domestics floor was over on the Ford/Lincoln side with the highest level of enthusiasm over on the Lincoln side. The Mercury side was there with a few vehicles.

The Fusion and Mercury HB's were there but I must say that the Fusion looks more stylist. The sales folks really did not know much about them. I cannot say that folks were all over the Hybrids they were just there.

I will say more about the show later but one item that came up from both the Ford and Mercury salesman about their respective Hybrid is that there is little to no difference between the two and that they are only going to be a few hundred dollars apart. I have heard that also here.

This confuses me for some reason. I always thought the Mercury was suppose to be a step up from the Fusion. I thought it had better interior, different suspension (softer ride) and a extra or different hi-tech electronics display. Of the two I saw the Fusion really looked sportier. Perhaps the olive drab color on the Milan turned me off. I have seen Milians in Black and in Red on the road and thought they looked really sharp. Not sure if they even offer the Milian HB in red.

As a side note that MKS was the real winner and in Red it is a stunner. The concept MKC had the young folks going wild.

akirby

The Fusion and Milan have always been virtually identical including price and features. In the past there was a little more of a differentiation (e.g. the Mountaineer came standard with a V8 while it was an optional upgrade on the Explorer) but not any more. The only reason the Milan exists is to keep the Lincoln Mercury dealers afloat until they get more new Lincoln products. Notice there is no new Sable to go along with the Taurus.

bigt

The Lincoln sales man of course said the following when ask about the differences:

"Milan usually has nicer/luxury appointments i.e.; wood-grain, chrome and softer suspension"

I still cannot make up my mind on this one.

Another side note: At the DC auto show Lincoln did not have any Navigators or MKX's.

wvgasguy

10 years / 100K miles (150K in a few states) is the warranty for Toyota. I can't imagine Ford not matching that.

gagrice

It is mandated in all the CARB states to get the AT-PZEV rating.

Sylvia

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coldcranker

On the possible (unknown?) differences between the Milan and Fusion Hybrids, I don't know why Mercury can't simply add more sound insulation and give theirs softer springs. I have no confirmation that they have done either. Does anyone know for sure? This has been traditional (Buick vs. Pontiac; Lincoln vs. Ford models, etc.) where cars share the same basic platform. Mercuries should be a tad quieter and ride mushier than a Ford, at least thats easy to do.

akirby

They could, but why bother?

coldcranker

My SAE Automative Engineering magazine (Jan. '09) says doing some clever and tricky fuel-shutoff dynamics (called ADFSO by Ford) any time the driver lifts their foot off the pedal saves 1.5% of fuel over past engines.
From the SAE article: "During a deceleration event, as the driver lifts off the gas pedal, torque is ramped down to zero, and the injector pulses follow. Precise calibration with the transmission allows the torque convertor to remain locked, saving fuel. When the driver resumes acceleration (presses the pedal down again), the injectors ramp up. This seamless electronic control maintains smooth, uninterrupted power delivery to the wheels. This system does not abruptly cut off gasoline flow to the Bosch fuel injectors, which would affect driveability."

This may be one of the cumulative many little things the Fusion Hybrid does to get amazing fuel economy compared to the Camry Hybrid.

I've always been a bit fuzzy about how engine controllers juggle emissions and driveability concerns during deceleration events, and it looks like Ford has raised the bar with how to do it.

The article also said Ford might increase the fuel efficiency even further by adding direct injection and lowering displacement, something a couple of Ford engineer friends of mine have been trying to do at Ford for the Fusion for a couple of years now but have been vetoed by marketeers who said customers don't care about fuel economy enough. Of course, as of summer 2008, the marketing people are beginning to see the light. Get ready for a 2.0L direct-injected 4 cylinder in the Fusion Hybrid and regular Fusion as well in a year or two.

coldcranker

replying to: "They could, but why bother? "

Huh? Aren't there people who want quieter, smoother riding cars out there, and are willing to put a Merc badge on it and pay a little extra? Thats the way its always been.

[Deleted User]

Umm...the 2010 Fusion is already quiet, perhaps more so than the 2009 MKZ. The 2010 Milan shares alll the upgrades, and provides a slightly more stylish interior, and a slightly different exterior.

I prefer the Milan styling. Lots of people prefer the Fusion. Ford has no business putting a lot of differentiation here, when it is still doubtful whether the whole shebang will surviive. I am still hoping they save the Mercury brand. If they are able to do so, right now it will be by providing half-efforts (which are super cheap to do) like the Milan. If Ford can turn around (and that is a big if), then maybe Mercury will be something again. Meanwhile, I'd buy the Milan hybrid for the exclusivity and slightly more formal look. I don't want the suspension any more wallowy than the Fusion.

akirby

Right. If you want a wallowy suspension go buy a Buick. Ford already offers 2 suspension packages for the Fusion and the Milan gets the softer of the 2.

Next thing he'll be asking for a bench seat........

coldcranker

akirby, Have you never heard of brand differentiation? Get a clue.

akirby

You don't get "brand differentiation" by cloning another brand's product and tweaking the suspension.

Mercury needs unique vehicles to thrive as a brand, not just clones and rebadges of Ford products. Right now they only exist to allow Lincoln dealers to sell Fords, and that's ok for now. Longer term they'll either kill the brand or give it unique products. You're seeing that now with the lack of a new Sable to go along with the Taurus.

Why does everyone think that it makes business sense for a mfr to make whatever vehicle they want?

Toyota and Buick have that market cornered already. Ford needs to be different.

texases

I think a big problem for Mercury is that there isn't much room between a well-optioned Fusion and an MKZ for the Milan to differentiate itself.

akirby

Ford is purposely moving the Ford brand upmarket (look at the Flex and new Taurus for proof). Lincoln will be the volume brand on the high end. Mercury will have niche vehicles that complement the other 2, but you won't see any rebadges. I expect some of the new Euro vehicles to be Mercurys.

[Deleted User]

Yes, I agree. Mercury with few exceptions has not been differentiated from Ford for decades. The last Cougar, based on the Contour/Mystique was unique to Mercury. But for the most part, there have been no "more sound deadening/more plush suspension" type differentiations or anything else for a long time. It has just been different front and rear styling details and some interior trim differences. Crown Vic/Grand Marquis the same. Contour/Mystique the same. Fusion/Milan the same. Escape/Mariner the same. It is no wonder that Mercury sales melted away even more than other brands.

I do remember when Mercuries received unique rooflines and body panels and/or longer wheelbases or special options. But with the success of so many companies from other parts of the world, even the genuine Pontiac/Mercury styling/upgrades that used to be done before the 1990s to differentiate them from Chevy/Ford is not even enough. We no longer need such brands for volume and variety, as the choice out there is already phenomenal and increasing all the time. Just wait until Chinese and Indian and Malaysian vehicles get good enough to enter our market. If Mercury is to survive, unique models will be the only way to do it.

coldcranker

akirby said "You don't get "brand differentiation" by cloning another brand's product and tweaking the suspension. "

The first 2 things are things they could easily do, the 3rd is one they are doing:

1. Making the Merc Milan Hybrid ride smoother with more progressive spring rates.

2. Milan Hybrid quieter due to the application of more sound-deadening materials like soft polymers inside body panels.

3. Milan Hybrid already looks a little different.

Then, if somebody buys a Merc Hybrid over a Fusion Hybrid, they can say the Milan rides better and is quieter, and they paid about $1,000 more for it. The Fusion Hybrid can be the one that holds a turn better. Differentiation between the Fusion Hybrid and Milan Hybrid. Those first two changes would cost about $500 to do by Ford, so it means their profit margin is better, since it has long been known people will pay for more quiet + smoother ride (generally older, more affluent buyers). Otherwise, the Fusion Hybrid and Milan Hybrid are really the same cars, which seems silly to me.

[Deleted User]

There are no real world differences in selling prices between Fusion/Milan, Escape/Mariner and so on. If anything, the Mercury models tend to sell for a bit less than the Fords, and the resale tends to be worse as well. How in the world will Mercury, already in its death throes, increase sales by raising prices?

It ain't gonna work, or it would have been tried by now. And Ford is already giving all those upgrades to Ford (the Fusion Hybrid will be one of the quietest cars on the road), so how is the Milan going to be enough noticably quieter than that so that Joe Blow will pay more dollars for it? Mercury needs unique vehicles, not Fords with some lipstick. Ford is already up market past where Mercury used to be.

koolkao

"On the E Coast Fitzmall and Laurel CarMax are the two that everyone 'shops' first online. The internet prices are almost always at invoice or below. Just call them and tell them which stock number you want and they'll pick you up in that car at one of the DC/Balt airports. You can sign the papers in the car and drive it away. "

that sounds amazing. I haven't been in the market for a car for ~ 10 years. What is a comparable company on the West Coast? (I'm in N Cal)

thanks!

coldcranker

At least the Milan Hybrid will look different, and there is a benefit of having the thing offered through even more dealerships (Linc-Merc ones) in addition to the all-Ford dealerships. Some benefit there.

When you say the Fusion Hybrid will be one of the quietest on the road, what are you basing this on? I haven't seen any dB sound level data to show this.

In the past, car makers have not always wanted to put enough sound deadener on because it adds weight and adds a few hundred dollars in cost. Kind of like what Lexus does to Toyota platforms, they increase noise deadening and get to charge some more to cover the buying group that tends to be a bit older and have more money to pay the $1,000 or so above the noisier base platform. That demographic that values ride smootheness and quietness over anything else has a lot of $$$$ in the marketplace and can't be ignored.

coldcranker

To illustrate how driving style can create huge variations in a hybrid's MPG, see the video at Motor Trend's real world MPG test showing huge variability in numbers based on driving style

Watching that test should show you how important it is to always use the EPA MPG standard tests to compare car A to car B. Same test, comparable results.

Another great video more targeted at the Fusion Hybrid is at Ford Fusion Hybrid Fuel Economy demo

akirby

If you don't want a Fusion, get a MKZ. It has the extra sound deadening that you're craving and possibly a softer ride, but it won't be Buick soft. There is NO sound financial reason for Ford to make 3 versions of a vehicle. The only reason they do it now is to keep the Lincoln Mercury dealers in business until they get new products.

Maybe you should look into a nice used Grand Marquis.

coldcranker

akirby, You keep trying to say I'm looking for or "craving" something. Cut the crap. I was discussing why the Milan vs. the Fusion Hybrid should differ to appeal to all market segments. Quibble elsewhere.

berri

As I've said before, I'm not sure Ford knows what to do with Mercury. They did this Ford clone stuff in the early 60's after Edsel's demise and had to make more changes to the 63 to differentiate it after the market spurned the earlier clones. I think I read somewhere that Ford is currently trying to pursue female buyers with Mercury, but I don't think that will be a winning strategy - who says woman want something different than guys? That has been tried before and not really proven successful. I'm not sure how Mercury can exist a whole lot longer. They have moved Lincoln downmarket to more of a Buick. It might compete with Acura and lower level Lexus, but its not really a true luxury brand today so there isn't much market between Lincoln and higher level Ford's. People talk about making Mercury a line of unique vehicles from overseas Ford. However that requires federalization to US specs and possible US plant manufacturing due to currency which makes that a potentially difficult move due to the high initial fixed costs having to be amortized over relatively low production volumes. I expect that if Ford has to go after government money like its competitors down the road (and that's probably more possible than the Ford famliy hopes), that will be the end of poor old Mercury. GM is probably cutting model lines and either Chrysler or Dodge may also end up gone in the restructuring (whether internal or chapter 11). I guess I see it like you do, Fusion versus MKZ.

[Deleted User]

Clearly, no one can tell you anything about EPA MPG, considering how important it is to you. Cheers.

[Deleted User]

Not that I think your "cut the crap" and "quibble elsewhere" toward Allen sound unfriendly or anything...

I guess the Fusion's amazing fuel economy compared to the Camry or anything else out there (even though real world tests have shown that the Fusion mpg is about the same as the Camry's) makes it difficult for you to consider that other people may look at a car purchase from a number of angles. I am a Ford guy and have been since 1957, but I recognize that every car is a compromise. As much as I want to love Fords more than Chevys or Toyotas, I do understand when people buy something else. I'd love for it to be cut and dried, but for me it just isn't. Glad it is for you. It does make life easier that way.

akirby

Berri - Ford has already announced plans to bring over several Euro models including the Focus and Transit Connect. Focus will be built here, TC will be imported at first. Not sure about the others. It's a done deal. Not sure if they will all be Fords or Mercurys though.

Mercury is simply on the back burner while Ford gets the main brand squared away and back on solid ground. Lincoln is secondary. If they can find vehicles that make sense for Mercury but don't take away from Ford or Lincoln, it will survive. If not it won't. It's that simple. But Mercury will not be a rebadged Ford any longer.

akirby

They will sell every Milan hybrid they can make, as is. There is no business case to make it different. Making room for the Milan between the Fusion and MKZ does nothing but hold back the Fusion. Look at the Taurus vs. the MKS. With no Sable the Taurus can go upmarket with a lot of options and the MKS picks up where it leaves off. And the Fusion already offers 2 suspensions - regular and sport.

There is no business case for Mercury in between Ford and Lincoln. Mercury has to have different vehicles. The only reason the Milan exists is to keep the few remaining Lincoln/Mercury dealers in business until they get more Lincoln products.

One person's desires does not constitute a viable market segment.

milkman1

FYI, Edmund's has full pricing details up for the 2010 Fusion now with option prices. Hopefully Ford will get their site updated very soon.

mtnman1

I had noticed this earlier today. The regular gas engine Fusion pricing on Edmunds does not list the SEL FWD V6 just shows SEL AWD V6. Do you know if there will be a FWD SEL? I bought a 2009 SEL FWD V6 in October which I love, but after experiencing a couple of decent snow storms in the past few weeks I've found the FWD Fusion to be absolutely terrible in the snow. If I had the chance to do it again I would have gotten the AWD. From a standing stop on the slightest incline this car would not go. My tires just spun. I have to back up and get a running start. My 2003 Sonata never had that problem. All I can figure is the tires they use on the Fusion must be very poor for all season driving.

milkman1

The V6 is an option under the I-4 SE and SEL

akirby

The 3.0L V6 is optional on the FWD SE and SEL versions, standard on the AWD versions. The 3.5L V6 only comes on the Sport.

wvgasguy

I'm part of the Ford Direct plan and they just came out with an extra $1K bonus cash so that I can get a 09 Fusion for XPlan pricing PLUS $3500 cash back.

That means I could get an absolutely LOADED v6SEL AWD for around $25,000 where as a loaded Hybrid will cost me $29,500. If you can't get the XPlan pricing then you'll be paying MSRP+ or around $31,500.

So the hybrid would cost $4500 to $6500 (less tax credits) more than a V6 all wheel drive model.

Makes me wonder why I'm stuck on hybrids. I think it's the right thing to do but as a consumer this doesn't make sense. My TCH came with large tax credits and economically I came out good on that. My HH came with no tax credits but I did get a large discount. Still it was probably a $5K to $6K premium. I just wasn't prepared to own another 14mpg SUV so I am happy with it.

[Deleted User]

A bit of an apples-oranges comparison. You need to look at the cost of a 2010 V6 AWD Fusion v. the Hybrid. The Hybrid will still be more, but not as much as comparing an 09. Ford needs to move 09s out, as the 10s are close to arriving at dealers. Looking at what the 09 doesn't have: as good mpg as the 10, it has less sound deadening, it does not have stability control, it has less power, and cheaper interior finish. The 09 is a decent car, but it needs to be that much cheaper to sell out.

akirby

Slight correction - the 09 models do offer stability control. One of the few things they changed for the 09.

[Deleted User]

You are correct. Was thinking of the 08s and older. Does not change my general point though.

bigt

I am also so on the fence on this one. I have the 07 MKZ and am trying to decide on the Milan HB or the 10 MKZ. I think when I load them up they will be close in price. I love the luxury but I also bet there will be something or some reason why gas will spike back up over the next few years. When it does you will not be able to get one of these new HB's. Heck all of the hype going on make make it impossible to get one of these once they start arriving. This is all good news for Ford!