I also bet there will be something or some reason why gas will spike back up over the next few years.
And it won't take much. It could be something as big as the world coming out of ressession and needing gasoline or it could be middle east unrest. I'm hoping for the first but betting on the second as a sure thing.
I used to have a Prius, and I don't miss it. Let me put it straight, you cannot compare a Prius to a Fusion, you can compare a Camry to a Fusion, but not a Prius. The Prius is in a class by itself, at least until Honda has the Insight on the road. For the Prius, handling, interior room, power, conveniences are all below the midsize cars like the Camry and Fusion. I now own a Camry Hybrid, I like the hybrid tech, but did not like the Prius. If Ford can get these out to the dealers in a decent time frame and can get the price to be competitive to the Camry H, then you will see a lot of these being sold. The only advantage a Prius has as far as room is rear leg room, and cargo space, not enough front leg room and not enough width for a third back seat passenger, where the Camry and Fusion do have the advantage. So far I have not had any problem with trunk space in the Camry, granted it is small compared to the hatchback in the Prius, but it still holds plenty of stuff. If I need more room than that I will drive my Veracruz, or F350 Dually.
The Prius is ok for the most part, but for a family with 3 kids, it just doesn't cut it, the Camry or Fusion does.
The thoughts of the Prius ownership and 50mpg is interesting but I found the Camry Hybrid to be overall a very nice package and comfortable. The new Prius interest will make me check it out and the FFE is of interest too. I can get discounts on the FFE so that is a plus. I'll be in the market anywhere between now and November when my lease runs out.
I have a Prius but if I had a young family again it would be the Camry or Fusion hybrids.
Ford will be severely limited in getting these to the general population due to battery supply constraints. 25000 units is the annual production goal. This is about 1 vehcle per dealer every 60 days. Or IOW the larger stores will get several and the smaller stores will get none. In addition unfortunately unless things pick up all vehicles above $25000 are going to be sitting for a good long time.
Hey Bob, I'm hoping that I have my mind made up by the time dealers are hungry. I don't want to pay a premium on a Toyota with no tax credit, but am still on the fence about the FFH. Supposedly I can get the FFH at the XPlan price but if the dealer doesn't participate or even have the ability to get one like I would want then it doesn't matter.
Will the 2010 TCH have the next generation hybrid system?
i doubt if any dealer will be doing that for quite a while.
I will probably push that question. I have a Ford dealer that has appreciated the repeat business. Since it will be a small market for them they may rather take the discount on one car than lose many sales down the road. If they could get a hundred then they may be greedy, but if they only get three or four a year then it's not really a money maker for them.
I'm always willing to walk on a deal and the salespeople I have worked with know I won't come back. Ever.
The new ETA for the first FFH at the local ford dealer is now 3/2/09. Which sounds more reasonable than 2/16th, but I'll believe it when I get to test drive it.
The HB uses an Atkinson cycle in its I4 engine, which gives it better highway mileage than the regular Milan's I4. The Atkinson cycle has less power at low speed, but that's where the battery power kicks in.
Okay, I want to help stimulate the economy, at the same time help out our auto industry, and oh by the way save money in the process.
My answer if I buy a Ford Fusion Hybrid I get it all. First I help the only one of the big three not asking me to give them my tax dollars. Second I do my small bit for the environment. Third I get the most economical hybrid available (MSRP $19,270) at 41 MPG. Fourth I get a tax credit on the sales Tax (around $1400). Fifth and finally If I buy by 31 March 2009, I get a $3400 Hybrid car Credit.
Here’s the problem, you just can’t do it. The car is not available, dealers won’t even give you an estimate on when it will be. What they do say is forget about 31 March.
Okay so lets try another one, love the look of the Mazda Tribute Hybrid. Sorry only available in California.
How about the Ford Escape it hits the mark although a lot more expensive (MSRP $39,000 mileage Mpg 25). After a lengthy search I actually find one near Charlotte where I can pick it up for $54,000.
Hmmm guess it isn’t going to happen. Frankly I would really like it to be a Ford or if not a company where Ford holds a 40% stake. The other two big three took the government handout and still may fail. Well where do I go now? http://www.fordvehicles.com/features/news/detail/index.asp?id=1714
How's this for false advertising, spent 30 minutes on line with Ford marketing the confirmed NO WAY to get the $3400 Tax Credit...the vehicle is not available untill June (maybe)
You might want to make a trip to San Diego. Our dealers seem to have over 100 Escape hybrids in stock. The big problem is not one of them is an AWD. So if that is on your list you may be out of luck here. I used the Edmund's inventory feature which the one time I checked it with the dealer was accurate.
If you order the FFH by 3/31, you qualify for the full $3400 tax credit. That is official news from Ford, not from some blog. I ordered mine last week. The vehicle is estimated to arrive no later than end of April, maybe sooner. I should have a VIN by next week.
Ford is advertising this vehicle heavy right now. It will be in showrooms by next week. As for the FEH, there are plenty available. If you don't have them in your area, just order it from a dealership in California. You will get it at invoice (or less) plus about $500 to ship the vehicle to your doorstep. I did the same thing several years ago when I was getting a raw deal on an Odyssey mini van locally. I bought it for $2500 less from a Honda dealer in Ohio. We still have the vehicle in our garage.
My local CA Ford dealer said I had to take delivery of the FFH by Mar. 31 to get the full tax credit, not just place my order by then.
Have you both confirmed this with your dealers?
zrobl1's post #369 above says: "How's this for false advertising, spent 30 minutes on line with Ford marketing the confirmed NO WAY to get the $3400 Tax Credit...the vehicle is not available untill June (maybe)"
I don't have a dealer (not buying). I'm just going by what several others have reported plus the reports of Ford verifying retail orders before 3/31 and the IRS language around the tax credit that has an example of a buyer "buying" a vehicle in August but not actually taking delivery until January. You get the tax credit as of August but you can't claim it until the following year's tax return. I can't think of any other scenario where you would "buy" a vehicle but wait several months to take delivery except for a factory order. Of course this could be different in CA and the interpretation could be wrong, but it does make sense.
Ford is saying that an order placed for the vehicle by 3/31 qualifies for the credit so long as that same vehicle is purchased. Here is the exact language from the Ford Motor Regional manager in a memo to his dealers (my salesman sent me a copy):
"Tax Credit Update Since Ford Motor Company reached the 60,000 vehicle threshold in the 4th Quarter of 2008, under current federal law the tax credit amounts are reduced by 50% beginning April 1, 2009 and by an additional 25% beginning October 1, 2009. No tax credit amount is available for hybrids after March 31, 2010. Customers who order or purchase any Hybrids by 3/31/09 will remain eligible for the full tax credit amounts. (This applies to Retail Orders of Fusion/Milan Hybrid.)"
The way I see it, they are guaranteeing eligibility for the credit (so long as the taxpayer's status allows the credit -- i.e. AMT, total income etc). Check with your dealer again. Ford also put out a press release a couple of weeks ago claiming the same thing.
If the government really wants to push the sales of Hybrids, then they should make the tax credit permanent, no cut off date. What gets me is all the hype about save the planet, global warming, blah blah blah, yet with hybrids, which are there to help fight the aforementioned stuff, there are rarely any incentives to purchase, rarely ever low financing, and if lucky get one for MSRP.
If the government really wants to push the sales of Hybrids, then they should make the tax credit permanent, no cut off date.
That wasn't the purpose of the tax credit. The purpose was to encourage more manufacturers to start building hybrids. This means Hyundai could start building hybrids and have an immediate $3400 cost advantage over Toyota and Ford. Consumer demand is already there and the hybrid costs are now reasonable, so there is no need for additional consumer incentives. I'd argue that there is no need for any further mfr enticements, either.
The IRS isn't going to elaborate any more than they already have. The key to me is the example the IRS gives where you "purchase" the vehicle in September 2009 but you don't take delivery until January 2010. You still get the tax credit that was in effect as of September 2009 but you can't submit the claim until you file your 2010 tax return in 2011.
There is no other possible scenario I can think of where you "purchase" a vehicle one month but don't take delivery until several months later.
If you can't get one in time for the tax credit you might want to wait until the rush is over. Currently Fitzmall has the TCH selling for about $4K off MSRP. You might like the Ford, but if you pay over MSRP and lose the credit, it might not be such a deal. In a year or two when the market is normal with supply and demand they will discount them.
This means Hyundai could start building hybrids and have an immediate $3400 cost advantage over Toyota and Ford
The car would have to be as efficient as the Fusion Hybrid in comparison to the non hybrid version. This is the first time the IRS has offered $3400 tax credit in this program. That is the maximum amount. The Prius was $3150 and the Camry Hybrid was only $2600. So Ford did a good job on their FFH to get the maximum credit. Too bad most people will not get that much.
Also remember if you are so unfortunate to be hit with AMT on your Federal Taxes, you will not be allowed any tax credits.
The only car I know of with a better tax credit is the Honda GX CNG car that has a $4000 tax credit. Not part of the same program as the diesel & hybrid incentives.
If the government really wants to push the sales of Hybrids, then they should make the tax credit permanent, no cut off date.
That wasn't the purpose of the tax credit.
You kinda missed the whole point I was making there. With the push for more people to go green by legislatures, IE Cap and Trade, you would think they would have more incentives to purchase a hybrid over a standard car, and one way would be tax credits. So far their stimulus bill doesn't have much at all in it that will stimulate me to buy anything. Economy is money, when people have it, they spend it, when they don't have it, nothing is purchased, so there are no orders for more goods, without those orders, people don't have jobs. Seems simple enough, yet our glorious leaders are constantly missing that whole point. Their bailouts are doing nothing more than crippling the system by letting the bad linger, its like treating a fever with an ice cube, feels good for a little while, but the fever is still there. If there are cars out there that not only save money by using less gas, but can also give you a bigger refund at the end of the year, don't you think more people would be buying? The same should go for cars that get 35+ MPG, a small tax credit for those, and maybe for diesel powered ones. Not only would it help sales, but there would be more fuel efficient cars on the road that way as well. It would spur manufacturers to build more fuel efficient cars then on lines that currently make gas guzzlers. Put the money towards those who would spend it on goods, not piss it away on parties and airplanes.
I don't see why we need to use tax money to help people buy cars - period. I was just pointing out the current tax credits were never intended to do that in the first place, and I don't think using them for that is a good move. I don't think it's the purchase price of the vehicle that is the problem and I don't think throwing a few thousand on the hood will help sales at all - it will just make it cheaper for those who already decided to purchase. It might sway a buyer from one make or model to another but it simply won't generate more sales.
I understand the desire to have more fuel efficient cars but that will only happen if consumers want them and that can't be legislated.
A eagar dealer in Maryland told me that they are going to have the Milan HB in a few weeks and wanted to get from a date when I want to come in and test drive it.
I agree, that most of the tax credits are a waste of tax dollars. Most ended up in the dealers pocket as premiums added to the Prius that ate up the tax credit. Without the tax credit on the Prius they are stacking up on the lots like all the other vehicles.
For anyone thinking the Ford Fusion Hybrid is new to Ford and a risky proposition to buy, keep in mind that Ford just passed the 100,000 Escape Hybrids mark, 1,400 which are taxis in NYC, and another 250 taxis in San Francisco, in 5 years of production. The Fusion Hybrid is improved over the system in the Escape, and shouldn't have any unpleasant surprises.
I want one badly but why not at this point wait for them to arrive. Camry HB has tax and dealer incentives. Maybe Ford will put some out for these vehicles. Nothing is moving at this point anyway.
Camry Hybrid is probably a better deal now compared to the Fusion Hybrid (Its not out yet???). However, like Consumer Reports, who only recommends the Toyota Prius Touring Edition, with better steering/handling than a base Prius, I can't recommend a Camry because it doesn't have adequate steering/handling. Toyota almost got it right with that one, but missed the mark. Still, just remember to drive slower and save some money with a good deal on Camry Hybrid, and its a decent compromise anyway, regardless of wallowy steering/handling there. Or, maybe Ford Fusion Hybrid will be discounted in a few months, if gas prices stay below $2, they might discount it. Not sure if they ever will since they are limited in production numbers due to battery limited supplies.
I don't know why everyone harps on the handling of the Camry. I had a base prius, it sucked in handling royally. Also, no matter how much they try to improve handling on a Prius, it will still suffer from cross winds, on a day like today with 30MPH gusts, I would park the Prius, the cross winds pushed that slab sided car all over the place, OTOH, you barely feel them in the Camry.
Lets put it this way, If I wanted sports car handling, I would by a sports car. To me the Camry handles like it should, a family sedan. It handles much better than a Crown Vic Sport does, and it has the Performance and Handling package!
I'm sure someone has already asked this but there are just too many posts to read them all. Anyway, I know the $3400 tax credit for the Fusion/Milan hybrids is only good through the end of March 09. My question is do you have to take delivery before then or does placing an order before then qualify? I have read it both ways and just want to know the truth. None of the government websites I have looked at address this issue.
Ford believes you get the credit as long as you place the order before April 1st and you subsequently take delivery of that vehicle. They have instituted a retail order confirmation process that just happens to coincide with the April 1st deadline.
The IRS rules give the example of "buying" a vehicle in September but not taking delivery until January and the rebate is what was in effect in September - which supports Ford's position. But you may want to check with your tax advisor to be sure.
I would file for the tax credit and not worry unless audited. The IRS really does not have a cross reference with the DMV to know when the car was licensed. As long as you have the sales agreement signed by 3/31/09 it should be good.
gagrice said "I would file for the tax credit and not worry unless audited. The IRS really does not have a cross reference with the DMV to know when the car was licensed. As long as you have the sales agreement signed by 3/31/09 it should be good. "
Did you work for Madoff or Blagoyevich or something? Do something wrong/illegal if you can get away with it (no audit)? I don't operate that way. I read the law and comply with the letter and/or intent of the law. Period.
I don't think you should be lumping gagrice with being a crook. I agree with gagrice in so far as claiming the tax credit so long as a valid order is placed by 3/31. Ford has OFFICIALLY stated as much. If you see the law as different, then so be it. No one is forcing you to claim the credit.
There is great difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion. Claiming the full credit pursuant to what Ford declares to be a correct reading of the tax code is the former, not the latter.
daninoah, Just read the IRS tax law and do it. Ford is not the authority here. Never do as gagrice says and do something because it won't be crosschecked or you might not be audited, as he said. I admit I'm very down on corruption, tax cheats, and swindlers, having seen this in the news and a couple of times myself. We should all speak out when possible.
Comments
And it won't take much. It could be something as big as the world coming out of ressession and needing gasoline or it could be middle east unrest. I'm hoping for the first but betting on the second as a sure thing.
The Prius is ok for the most part, but for a family with 3 kids, it just doesn't cut it, the Camry or Fusion does.
The thoughts of the Prius ownership and 50mpg is interesting but I found the Camry Hybrid to be overall a very nice package and comfortable. The new Prius interest will make me check it out and the FFE is of interest too. I can get discounts on the FFE so that is a plus. I'll be in the market anywhere between now and November when my lease runs out.
Ford will be severely limited in getting these to the general population due to battery supply constraints. 25000 units is the annual production goal. This is about 1 vehcle per dealer every 60 days. Or IOW the larger stores will get several and the smaller stores will get none. In addition unfortunately unless things pick up all vehicles above $25000 are going to be sitting for a good long time.
Will the 2010 TCH have the next generation hybrid system?
i doubt if any dealer will be doing that for quite a while.
I will probably push that question. I have a Ford dealer that has appreciated the repeat business. Since it will be a small market for them they may rather take the discount on one car than lose many sales down the road. If they could get a hundred then they may be greedy, but if they only get three or four a year then it's not really a money maker for them.
I'm always willing to walk on a deal and the salespeople I have worked with know I won't come back. Ever.
The new ETA for the first FFH at the local ford dealer is now 3/2/09. Which sounds more reasonable than 2/16th, but I'll believe it when I get to test drive it.
(Not 'Atkins', unless it's on a diet! Oops)
My answer if I buy a Ford Fusion Hybrid I get it all. First I help the only one of the big three not asking me to give them my tax dollars. Second I do my small bit for the environment. Third I get the most economical hybrid available (MSRP $19,270) at 41 MPG. Fourth I get a tax credit on the sales Tax (around $1400). Fifth and finally If I buy by 31 March 2009, I get a $3400 Hybrid car Credit.
Here’s the problem, you just can’t do it. The car is not available, dealers won’t even give you an estimate on when it will be. What they do say is forget about 31 March.
Okay so lets try another one, love the look of the Mazda Tribute Hybrid. Sorry only available in California.
How about the Ford Escape it hits the mark although a lot more expensive (MSRP $39,000 mileage Mpg 25). After a lengthy search I actually find one near Charlotte where I can pick it up for $54,000.
Hmmm guess it isn’t going to happen. Frankly I would really like it to be a Ford or if not a company where Ford holds a 40% stake. The other two big three took the government handout and still may fail.
Well where do I go now?
http://www.fordvehicles.com/features/news/detail/index.asp?id=1714
How's this for false advertising, spent 30 minutes on line with Ford marketing the confirmed NO WAY to get the $3400 Tax Credit...the vehicle is not available untill June (maybe)
Ford is advertising this vehicle heavy right now. It will be in showrooms by next week.
As for the FEH, there are plenty available. If you don't have them in your area, just order it from a dealership in California. You will get it at invoice (or less) plus about $500 to ship the vehicle to your doorstep. I did the same thing several years ago when I was getting a raw deal on an Odyssey mini van locally. I bought it for $2500 less from a Honda dealer in Ohio. We still have the vehicle in our garage.
My local CA Ford dealer said I had to take delivery of the FFH by Mar. 31 to get the full tax credit, not just place my order by then.
Have you both confirmed this with your dealers?
zrobl1's post #369 above says:
"How's this for false advertising, spent 30 minutes on line with Ford marketing the confirmed NO WAY to get the $3400 Tax Credit...the vehicle is not available untill June (maybe)"
Ford is saying that an order placed for the vehicle by 3/31 qualifies for the credit so long as that same vehicle is purchased. Here is the exact language from the Ford Motor Regional manager in a memo to his dealers (my salesman sent me a copy):
"Tax Credit Update
Since Ford Motor Company reached the 60,000 vehicle threshold in the 4th Quarter of 2008, under current federal law the tax credit amounts are reduced by 50% beginning April 1, 2009 and by an additional 25% beginning October 1, 2009. No tax credit amount is available for hybrids after March 31, 2010. Customers who order or purchase any Hybrids by 3/31/09 will remain eligible for the full tax credit amounts. (This applies to Retail Orders of Fusion/Milan Hybrid.)"
The way I see it, they are guaranteeing eligibility for the credit (so long as the taxpayer's status allows the credit -- i.e. AMT, total income etc). Check with your dealer again. Ford also put out a press release a couple of weeks ago claiming the same thing.
And don't get me started about electric plugins!!
That wasn't the purpose of the tax credit. The purpose was to encourage more manufacturers to start building hybrids. This means Hyundai could start building hybrids and have an immediate $3400 cost advantage over Toyota and Ford. Consumer demand is already there and the hybrid costs are now reasonable, so there is no need for additional consumer incentives. I'd argue that there is no need for any further mfr enticements, either.
There is no other possible scenario I can think of where you "purchase" a vehicle one month but don't take delivery until several months later.
Seriously :confuse: Why would anyone pay $54K for an Escape Hybrid?????
The car would have to be as efficient as the Fusion Hybrid in comparison to the non hybrid version. This is the first time the IRS has offered $3400 tax credit in this program. That is the maximum amount. The Prius was $3150 and the Camry Hybrid was only $2600. So Ford did a good job on their FFH to get the maximum credit. Too bad most people will not get that much.
Also remember if you are so unfortunate to be hit with AMT on your Federal Taxes, you will not be allowed any tax credits.
The only car I know of with a better tax credit is the Honda GX CNG car that has a $4000 tax credit. Not part of the same program as the diesel & hybrid incentives.
That wasn't the purpose of the tax credit.
You kinda missed the whole point I was making there. With the push for more people to go green by legislatures, IE Cap and Trade, you would think they would have more incentives to purchase a hybrid over a standard car, and one way would be tax credits. So far their stimulus bill doesn't have much at all in it that will stimulate me to buy anything. Economy is money, when people have it, they spend it, when they don't have it, nothing is purchased, so there are no orders for more goods, without those orders, people don't have jobs. Seems simple enough, yet our glorious leaders are constantly missing that whole point. Their bailouts are doing nothing more than crippling the system by letting the bad linger, its like treating a fever with an ice cube, feels good for a little while, but the fever is still there. If there are cars out there that not only save money by using less gas, but can also give you a bigger refund at the end of the year, don't you think more people would be buying? The same should go for cars that get 35+ MPG, a small tax credit for those, and maybe for diesel powered ones. Not only would it help sales, but there would be more fuel efficient cars on the road that way as well. It would spur manufacturers to build more fuel efficient cars then on lines that currently make gas guzzlers. Put the money towards those who would spend it on goods, not piss it away on parties and airplanes.
I understand the desire to have more fuel efficient cars but that will only happen if consumers want them and that can't be legislated.
Is this real?
Your part about "without the tax credit the Prius are not selling" is COMPLETELY FALSE.
We had that conversation the month or two after the tax credit stopped on the Prius and the sales did not "tank" in that period.
THE FAILED ECONOMY combined with NO KIND OF CARS SELLING combined with LOWER GAS PRICES are the reasons that hybrids are not selling.
It has NOTHING to do AT ALL with the end of the Toyota tax credits.
Lets put it this way, If I wanted sports car handling, I would by a sports car. To me the Camry handles like it should, a family sedan. It handles much better than a Crown Vic Sport does, and it has the Performance and Handling package!
The IRS rules give the example of "buying" a vehicle in September but not taking delivery until January and the rebate is what was in effect in September - which supports Ford's position. But you may want to check with your tax advisor to be sure.
Did you work for Madoff or Blagoyevich or something? Do something wrong/illegal if you can get away with it (no audit)? I don't operate that way. I read the law and comply with the letter and/or intent of the law. Period.
I don't think you should be lumping gagrice with being a crook. I agree with gagrice in so far as claiming the tax credit so long as a valid order is placed by 3/31. Ford has OFFICIALLY stated as much. If you see the law as different, then so be it. No one is forcing you to claim the credit.
There is great difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion. Claiming the full credit pursuant to what Ford declares to be a correct reading of the tax code is the former, not the latter.