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SAAB 9-3

1235710

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    eckdareckdar Member Posts: 30
    All the talk about speakers got my curiosity up. My 9-3 only has the 4 speakers, 2 in the dash and 2 in the rear. The radio doesn't sound as full as I would like. Talked to a highly recommended car audio place last night about a modest upgrade. He recommended as a first step disconnecting the dash speakers and installing 2-way speakers in the existing door location. This after I told him the vehicle was a lease and I didn't want to cut any additional holes in the doors, etc. His reasons for disconnecting the dash speakers was that they reflect directly off the windshield and he said this tends to make for a harsh sound. Also he said that their experience has been that because of this reflection, door speakers can sound out of phase with the dash speakers. He thought the existing rear speakers would be fine and that there was no need to install an additional amp as the existing unit would have enough power. Listened to a pair of Boston Acoustic 5 1/4 inch speakers for the doors ($130/pr) along with another brand I can't recall ($100/pr). About $50 to install. I'm assuming the door speaker location is pre-wired. Thought the Bostons sounded very good. I certainly wouldn't call myself an audiophile, but the standard speakers don't seem up to par for this class of car. Comments?
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    bluejays1bluejays1 Member Posts: 40
    Thanks for sharing your research. I too lease so I don't want to get into a major retrofit. Since the SE has door and dash speakers, I wonder if it would take a serious audiophile to notice if either pair were out of phase. Since I haven't been suffering from the harshness of sound bouncing off the windshield, maybe my pedestrian tastes will be satisfied by just popping in two more speakers.
    It should be possible to simply remove them at lease-end if it's an issue.
    P.S. Does anyone have a cd-changer in the trunk in addition to the in-dash player? Can you run both? Thanks.
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    bluejays1bluejays1 Member Posts: 40
    Check out this link to see the work of someone who has too much time on his hands to fiddle around with his Saab sound system:
    http://www.ultranet.com/~bevanrl/saab/audio.html
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    bluejays1bluejays1 Member Posts: 40
    On the site I listed above, the guy talks at great length about the systems one could install in a 900. I'm assuming little about the basic set up has changed in the 9-3 and if so, be warned: He said the door locations are NOT wired and that feeding the wire through was the toughest part of the job -- don't know if you were planning to do it yourself.
    His suggestion for people who just want a nicer sound but are not highly technical is to replace the dash speakers, a process he says is easily done and improves the sound noticeably.
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    JoeDamaJoeDama Member Posts: 5
    With all this talk about the stereo, I'm wondering if anyone has found an aftermarket CD player that will plug into the prewiring in the back of a 9-3. The dealer I talked to said this was not possible, and I'm hard pressed to pay the $450 (plus installation) for the factory unit from the dealer. Any luck, anybody?
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    FREDERICKFREDERICK Member Posts: 228
    I have a lot emotion about this subject because I really believed in Saab's safety factor. I came out of the self inflicted accident rather worse for ware but I did survive. I now have some doubts about Saab's safety record.
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    SporinSporin Member Posts: 1,066
    frederick,

    Sorry to hear about your accident, if youdon't mind, could you elaborate on the circumstances and the damage?
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    eckdareckdar Member Posts: 30
    bluejays1 - Thanks for the info and warning on the door prewiring. No, I wouldn't be doing it myself. I'll let you know if I decide to go ahead with anything. Will probable be at least a month or so if at all.

    frederick - Glad to hear your still with us. Hope you enjoy a speedy recovery. Surviving a roll says something positive about Saab safety design doesn't it? Again, most importantly, you did survive. Think positive.

    After 1300 miles and 6 weeks in my 9-3, some observations/comments: (Comparing to the 96 Audi A4 I used to drive, which my wife now does.)
    1. I miss the auto climate control big time. Don't know why an auto of this price (I'm talking about the base 9-3 doesn't have it.)
    2. Given the window and sunroof control location,
    why isn't there a driver window one-touch up feature? Would rather one-touch up than one-touch down. With a 5 speed its a hassle pulling away from toll booths, postal boxes, bank teller windows, etc. Having to keep your hand on the window control button makes it just a little hard to shift. Same for the sunroof control, but there its just wanting to operate the sunroof during city driving where shifting is frequent. To me this is a safety issue as well as a convenience one. Audi has driver and passenger window one-touch up and down, as well as sunroof control that you just flip to desired position, left for flip-up and right for sliding. Hands are off the steering wheel for a minimum time.
    3. Locking is totally wierd, and not in a good way. Remote control is way too big to begin with. Unlocking driver door, passenger door and truck at once is obnoxious. All that noise is a little much. Also automatic locking feature on truck is annoying. Audi has one button to control all 4 doors, truck and gas cap door (with only one beep when locking and arming anti-theft alarm.)
    4. Seats are very comfortable, more so than the Audi.
    5. Center console area lacks adequate storage for small items, sunglasses, etc.
    6. The hatch is a plus for hauling stuff. My 27" tv never would have fit in my Audi when I had to take it in for repair.

    The seats and the hatch are the only things I would take from the 9-3 over the A4. For driving, I'll take the A4. Better road feel, could be the 16" wheels along with what feels like lower, more aggresive stance. After 3 years of driving the A4, I still enjoy the anticipation of, and the driving of the A4 over the 9-3. Hope I didn't bore everyone.
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    eckdareckdar Member Posts: 30
    Don't ask me why I kept talking about a truck in comment #3. Obviously I meant the trunk.
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    eckdareckdar Member Posts: 30
    Can you stand one more comment? Used the night panel feature, but found I didn't like. To me being able to glance at the fuel gauge, tach, clock, etc. are ways to stay more alert at night. There aren't so many controls that there's a need to black out most. In a jet fighter maybe its a good idea, but in a car? Not.
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    dskidski Member Posts: 414
    I'd have to say I agree with most of your comments. I've always felt that Saab needs to look at the things Audi has been doing in order to meet the wants of American consumers. If I lived in the word of toll booths, I'd want the one touch up features. My 9-5 does have the one touch open on the sunroof, an improvement over my last 900SE. Having said all that, I'll gladly look past these short commings to keep Saabs priced where they are. I simply have not been able to find Audis priced competitively to Saab for similarly equipped vehicles.

    The night panel feature you commented on may not be useful in most situations but I do find it useful on occasion. I have trouble sometimes with light glare since I'm a contact lens wearer. I do use the feature on occasion when it's a very dark road on a long drive.

    By the way, for all you folks who insist on using your fog lights all the time, it creates a very annoying and sometimes dangerously sever glare to people with certain vision problems. Please use them as they are intended. You may think they look cool having them on all the time but their improper use make you look like a rookie.

    Drew S.
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    bill42bill42 Member Posts: 29
    Don't know about anyone else, but I do most appreciate the 9-3 vs A4 comparisons. I'm a long time Audi driver and my current ride is getting close to being replaced as it has 174,000 miles on it. I've driven Saabs on several occasions and generally come away impressed especially given the aggressive leasing policy Saab has.

    In my heart of hearts I'm still an Audi fan and would love to hold out until Fall when the A6 will come with an optional V8 and sport package. But that will be an upper $40,000 car and not in the cards.

    So for me it comes down to a 9-3 or an A4. The best lease numbers I can get on an A4 1.8 turbo quattro is about $400 per month for 39 months on a car with a $29,000 MSRP. On a 2.8 quattro it is about $460 per month on a car with a $32,000 MSRP.
    I just cannot justify those prices. Going to hold out a little longer and wait until the new Saab Viggen coupe gets here. I know it will be pricey, but just maybe Saab will have an aggressive leasing program and I can justify the costs.

    Again, thanks for the 9-3/A4 comparisons.
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    dskidski Member Posts: 414
    Bill,

    Like you, I've always been an Audi fan. I've had two and the Quattro was great but expensive. We recently leased a 9-5 because we needed more room than the 9-3. Our lease payment came out less than what your being quoted for the A4 1.8. For those kinds of numbers, I like the 9-5 over either the A4 or 9-3. The 9-5 is more comfortable has more room and better crash protection. If you want the Viggen, get your order in early because they won't be building very many. Also, expect to pay top dollar for it. My understanding is that the coupe will be out this spring the 5 door in mid summer and converible in the fall. They should be worth the wait, good luck.

    Drew
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    bluejays1bluejays1 Member Posts: 40
    Eckdar is right: the 9-3 remote is way too big and bulky. In addition, the buttons are more difficult to push than my 900 remote and I don't think it has as much range either.
    I also agree about the chirping. Switching from a loud horn blast was a good idea, but that benefit was cancelled out by adding three (!) chirps when opening the trunk. Why?
    The good news is, according to my dealer, the sounds can be deactivated. I inquired about this when buying ours a couple weeks ago. Doing it then would have meant a delay in picking it up so I put it off.
    In the meantime, you can cut down on the sounds by double clicking the unlock in quick succession. That will open all four doors but only activate one double-chirp.
    The Audi/VW sunroof control is pure genius and has not been copied by many/any others that I know of. I love the thing. But if I can't have that, I do appreciate the placement of the Saab switch, down between the seats where it is more easily reached than up on the roof.
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    woj1woj1 Member Posts: 48
    As another former Audi Quattro owner, I would second the motion that the 9-3 has an advantage over the A4 in terms of seating and carrying capacity. The hatchback mode is definately the way to go. We ended up passing on an A4 Avant V6 because of lack of space, high cost (as we were well versed with our prior 200 Quattro wagon) and poor seating comfort.
    15550 miles later, we are still quite satisifed.
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    bill42bill42 Member Posts: 29
    Drew/Wojil:

    Thanks for the thoughts. Was talking to my Audi dealer yesterday who is also a Saab dealer (and BMW, MB, Infiniti, & Range Rover). He has four deposits for the new S4 but only 1 phone call inquiring about the Viggen. I know they will be in very short supply--especially the first batch. I'm fortunate in that there are probably 6 Saab dealers within an hour of where I live, so product availability might not be too difficult.
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    eckdareckdar Member Posts: 30
    Don't know about deactivating the remote chirping, but somewhere in the owners manual I read that the volume could be cut in half. Something I'm going to inquire about today when I have my 1000 mile service done. Chirps are especially loud in underground parking ramps.

    Regarding my previous comments on 9-3 vs A4 and responses about price and value. If I owned neither and was comparison shopping the 2 now, I can see where I might be hard pressed to justify paying the extra $s for the A4. Especially when looking at the lease numbers. When I leased my 9-3 already owned the A4, a 2.8 auto with sunroof and heated seats for which I paid $27000. Not fair to compare a car and deal I made 3 years ago to what could be had today.
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    bill42bill42 Member Posts: 29
    At 3pm this afternoon (EST) Saab unveiled the Viggen at the NY Auto Show. If you go to Saab USA web site you can see the video of the unveiling.

    I ran the video for about 10 minutes and then it froze up, so there is information I dont have.

    In addition to the Viggen, Saab announced that there will be a high output version of the 9-5 coming in the Fall.

    As for the Viggen, the only color available for '99 is "lightning blue" with an interior of black leather with dark blue leather inserts. The sport seats in the car along with the steering wheel are unique ot the Viggen.

    At about this point in the process RealPlayer froze up. The big question remains--how much $$$$.
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    woj1woj1 Member Posts: 48
    The torque steer on the Viggen I'm assuming is the entertainment part? :-)
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    bill42bill42 Member Posts: 29
    As part of the Saab press conference on of their engineers talked about damping torque steer. Sounded impressive enough but since I know nothing about engineering or physics I really cannot comment on the validity of what was said.
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    woj1woj1 Member Posts: 48
    Should be interesting to see how Saab manages to tame the torque steer, as I find the base 9-3 has an unreasonable amount of TS.
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    jaffabearjaffabear Member Posts: 1
    I've had a 9-3 for about 1 month now. So far
    the only problem has been the radio. The sound
    is very distorted and one of the back channels
    is almost gone. The dealer will replace it at
    the 1k service. Don't notice any torque steer,
    maybe I'm not driving hard enough. I find the
    power at low revs particularly gratifying. (5-sp
    base coupe).
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    mznmzn Member Posts: 727
    Check out our coverage of the Viggen at the 1999 New York Auto Show!

    carlady/host
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    rfellmanrfellman Member Posts: 109
    Torque steer? I drive pretty hard and unless you are accelerating like a bat out of hell on broken or slick pavement, I find it non-existant. Of course if you have your tires turned elsewhere than dead ahead when you jam on the gas, there will be some pull and straigthening out the wheel during during rapid acceleration will be difficult. But then, common sense would tell you that much.
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    rfellmanrfellman Member Posts: 109
    As for comparisons to the A-4. Why did you choose SAAB? Better value. More room, faster, more utility for less money I would venture to guess. The A-4 is a fine car which has about as much room as a Honda Civic and costs 30K as available at most dealers off of the lot. The BMW 323 runs even more money with otpions but offers less safety than the SAAB or AUDI but is arguably more fun than either.


    Bottom line, when you add up the variables, SAAB 9-3 is a great buy. I have used mine as a canine ambulance already and let me tell you, putting a wounded dog in the back of a SAAB is a hell of a lot easier with the almost unlimited access permitted by the folding rear seats and hatch than in either a BMW or Audi. COnsider that when you next decide which car will serve you in a medical emergency. I could basically put a man on a board and transport him to hospital in SAAB 9-3 in a pinch. Try that in an A-4 or BMW 3 series sedan.
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    woj1woj1 Member Posts: 48
    rfellman: On a manual 9-3, hard acceleration from a dead stop produces gobs of TS. I was just commenting that with the Viggen, SAAB would be wise to have some sort of traction control to squelch the mad scrabbling for traction. Having modified a number of GTI's over the years I have found that lots of HP up front was always a challenge to put to the ground and the Viggen sounds like it needs a better solution that just utilizing more tire.
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    bill42bill42 Member Posts: 29
    The Saab press conference on Wednesday included a question about traction control for the Viggen. Not included, not an option. Saab's answer was that no traction control gave the driver more control over the vehicle.
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    rfellmanrfellman Member Posts: 109
    I agree. Traction control is antithectical to FWD low end torque and rapid acceleration from a stop or just plain aggressive driving for fun. Traction control on a Lexus driven by someone seeking luxury at the cost of performance may make sense, but why would I want it on a SAAB I bought for its low and mid range torque. What kind of tires do you have on your 9-3? I honestly seldom have any torque steer though I can create it on demand by simply applying too much pressure to the gas pedal which will cause my tires to spin too fast and the car to skid sideways. However, such is not conducive to facilitatting the desired "launch" so I ramp up acceleration via rapid but measured downward pedal pressure so that the 9-3 accelerates away from a light at maximum efficiency.
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    dskidski Member Posts: 414
    Seems to be alot of confusion over torque steer. It really is not an issue anymore with most modern cars particularly Saabs. Even during the most aggressive driving it shouldnt be a factor if you are accelerating properly and in the most efficient manner. True, you can just hammer the accelerator on a Mustang Cobra and it will forgive you for it and you'll have a blast doing it but don't think your getting the most efficient acceleration. Also, I'm sure the new Viggen will be a blast to drive aggresively but when it doesn't behave like a Cobra or even a BMW don't blame it on torque steer.

    Drew
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    rooster3rooster3 Member Posts: 4
    Hello - Thanks for all the info. About to take the plunge and lease a 9-3. Is the sunroof standard equipment? All the 9-3s on the lot had the sunroofs and the dealer said they were standard but I find them listed as optional at $1000+. Any thoughts?
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    gunbygunby Member Posts: 2
    aside from the new front and end spoilers,
    the new Viggen looks just like the 9-3, ex-
    teriorwise. Do any of you see any other differences between the two in appearance?
    The saab press seems to make a really big deal out of Viggen's jet-fighter inspired body etc... I sort of wanted it to be more radical
    in its design....
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    bill42bill42 Member Posts: 29
    Gunby: Just how radical did you want the design to be. Remember, this is a low volum vehicle (400 units in model year '99) only 3,000 in all 3 versions (coupe, wagon, and convertible.

    Looks to me all Saab did for the body was to make the aerodynamics package standard. The car has a far more finished look to me than does the stock 9-3 coupe. Throw in the 17" wheels, bigger brakes, interior unique to the car, a re-worked engine and that adds up to a pretty nice package.

    The big issue remains as to how Saab is going to price this thing. Neither of my 2 area Saab dealers has any information about pricing.
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    bluejays1bluejays1 Member Posts: 40
    The Viggen also has a VW type antenna, sticking up a foot where the roof meets the rear window. I hope future 9-3s get this or the 9-5 integrated antenna. Either way, it will save the inevitable repair when the automatic one stops being automatic.
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    rooster3rooster3 Member Posts: 4
    Thanks for your insights into the pros and cons of Saabs. Hoping you can
    help me out. I went to the one and only Saab dealer in Dallas and left with
    the following offer for a car on the lot:

    9-3 base
    5 speed
    Leather
    Sunroof
    CD
    Heated Seats
    Invoice (incl $575 destination, $95 p&h, $350 "preparation")= $28,221

    Dealer wouldn't budge from $28,771 ($500 above invoice)
    * TX has a "balloon payment" assistance of $3,500
    * $4,000 cash down

    Total (incl tax, etc) = $22,821

    Dealers final offer based on 7.84% financing = $370 for 35 months
    $15,312 residual

    My math is a little rusty but think I can get a better deal. I offered
    $22,000 flat and he plead hardship.

    Thanks for taking a look at this scenario. Any thoughts you have would be
    greatly appreciated.
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    rfellmanrfellman Member Posts: 109
    heated seats in Dallas? I know you get some ice storms and even snow, but for the other eleven months, isn't it 100 degrees every day?
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    FREDERICKFREDERICK Member Posts: 228
    3 weeks ago I rolled our 9-3 auto out in the California desert around 1:30 AM on a two lane road just south of Death Valley.

    I've been a little guarded about this topic because my life very nearly flashed before my eyes. I came out of the accident just slightly worse for ware and my recovery has been rapid.

    I was treated in a local hospital with 20+ stitches to my forhead, becasue I had the sunroof open at the time of the accident as well as severe abrassions to my right arm due to the dragging through the desert that both the car and I experienced.

    I rolled the car after falling asleep in the heated seats. I'd driven several hours from my home and was nearly to my destination when the accident occured. There was nothing for me to hit other than the cold hard desert sand and I did that with aplomb.

    I still resent the fact that none of the four air bags in the car deployed in this roll over crash, but I did "walk" away from the crash. There literally was not a body panel on the car that wasn't touched.

    I remember the first impact and then the next moment I remember was when I was sitting on the side of road next to the car trying to figure out wether the car was right side up or up side down.

    I'm not sure we'll be replacing the 9-3 with another 9-3 for a myriad of reasons. For the $'s spent I think the Saab was a little cheaply built i.e. interior trim quality. I believe that the safety level of the 9-3 is pretty good but the handeling is less than to be desired. I relate this not just to the accident but to more regular driving experiences.

    I lived through this crash and I certainly don't begrudge Saab for this but I do feel now that all that much of what is said about the car is not exactly what the ownership experinece was like for me.
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    bo_chungbo_chung Member Posts: 61
    Very good to hear that you alright. Just some comments on safety. The airbags are NOT supposed to go off when you roll the car. Those things can kill you if they go off at the wrong time. They are meant to go off during a severe frontal or side crash. Having the sunroof open during a roll probably didn't help either. BTW, if you want the bigger car feeling, try the 9-5. Somehow I think 9-5 might be more to your liking.
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    SporinSporin Member Posts: 1,066
    I think if I rolled my car a few times and managed to walk away, then I would be pretty happy with the saftey of that car, not the other way around. Lots of cars would have flattened like a soda can under your foodt in a similar situation.

    How fast were you going?

    Good to hear your OK.
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    dskidski Member Posts: 414
    sporin,

    I believe you are absolutely correct. Many everyday vehicle and not so everyday vehicles would be structurally devastated in a highway speed roll over. For the record, I do know of at least one individual who was killed in just such an accident. The 9-3 may not be up to the safety standard of the 9000 or 9-5 in front end collisions but in a roll over they hold up very well. I'm glad you are okay Fredrick and understand your fears but I doubt that you would have wanted the airbags in the situation you were in. In fact, if you wear your seat belt, you're better off without the bags in many if not most situations. Your comments seem to have some blame in them for Saab even though you say not. I'm referring to the "falling asleep in the heated seats" and "sun roof" comments.

    Hope you heal well.

    Drew S.
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    rdeschenerdeschene Member Posts: 331
    Years ago I rolled a Rabbit - I hit a patch of sand on pavement at 40mph in a sharp corner and that (can be) like ball bearings. I also walked away unscathed, and learned that sand on pavement can be as bad as ice. But I never concluded from this experience that the Rabbit wasn't safe. On the contrary.

    And previous posters, I believe, are quite right with regards to air bags deployment (or lack thereof). The sensors for dash and steering wheel mounted air bags react to rapid deceleration along the longitudinal axis of the car (i.e. from front to rear) and if you rolled your car you burned off most of your speed going sideways! ;-) No offence, but it's good to be whimsical about these things. Heck, might as well! :-)
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    rfellmanrfellman Member Posts: 109
    The fact that you fell asleep no doubt relaxed your skeletal structure and prevented some muscular injuries as well. If you must be a traum inducing, life threatening auto accident, unconsciousness can be a blessing. I understand a new SAAB would bring back unwelcome associations and perhaps you need a change. However, you survived a serious accident in a rural area without rapid access to healthcare. You were not ejected and your neck and spine are relatively intact along with your cognitive functioning. Actually falling asleep at the wheel is the reason I smoke cigars on long drives. It is a far more common cause of accidents than most people realize. I am very glad to here that your physical being is healing.
    Perhaps an Audi A4 Quattro would be a good replacement or the TT Coupe. If I did nor buy the SAAB, I would have gotten an Audi.
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    dskidski Member Posts: 414
    Robert,

    We have a lot in common. I've had two Saab's, two Audi's and Zino's are my favorite but I never smoke them in the car. Now that you have come up with a reason to, maybe I should start. No way my wife would go for it though.

    Happy motoring with your favorite hand made Cuban.

    Drew S
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    mznmzn Member Posts: 727
    I'm so glad you are well enough to be in touch, Frederick. I say, take your time choosing your next car so you can evaluate well, perhaps without dwelling on the accident.

    For me, being able to walk away from such a terrible accident is a real testimony to the safety of your Saab. Good luck as you continue your recovery!

    carlady/host
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    rfellmanrfellman Member Posts: 109
    I utilize the dash mounted swiveling cup holder and utilize a travel mug with an inch of water as an ashtray for Honduran and Nicaraugan smokes. SAAB might consider a glove box based mini-humidor. That way, we can always keep a stash of sleep avoiding smokes at hand on long trips. There is no worse feeling than trying to fight the onset of sleep at highway speeds. It is a struggle many American lose every day. On any trip of over four hours, I basically won't leave without at least two strong cigars.
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    FREDERICKFREDERICK Member Posts: 228
    I am certainly happy to be typing away to all of you guys tonight instead of lying six feet under, so please don't get me wrong.

    There is a lot of missunderstanding about what air bags are suppose to do for you and considering my injuries I suspect that the Saab's did exactly what they were designed to do.

    I did not have any cigars with me at the time and I'm sure according to you guys that they may have actually saved me from my trauma. Forget the lip and mouth cancer I'd face years down the road.

    This whole exerience has been a real eye opener needless to say. (All puns aside) Falling asleep at the wheel is an amazing experience since just when you are most relaxed you've put yourself into immense danger that you may never awake from.

    I'd post the photos of my car over the net but I'm still reluctant to even show them to people I know intimately. I was that "gorey accident on the side of the road" that everyone has to slow down to take a look at.
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    bluejays1bluejays1 Member Posts: 40
    Fred:
    Glad you're on the way to full recovery.
    Just curious: Were you charged with anything as a result of the accident?
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    rfellmanrfellman Member Posts: 109
    Forgive my curiousity, but did the car roll laterally from side to side or end over end? Or was the roll over the result of a descent off of a raised road surface onto a steeply sloped shoulder so that the car's speed and mass caused it to tumble. Did your fuel line and gas tank stay intact?
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    woj1woj1 Member Posts: 48
    Has anybody out there w/9-3 had a problem with the power radio antenna?
    Mine won't go all the way down and my dealer keeps telling me to just "clean' it and ge the grime off. That isn't much help...
    thanks
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    dskidski Member Posts: 414
    Jan,

    What a terrible response from the dealer. Your car should be under warranty and they should fix the problem, period, no questions asked. That's how my dealer responds to my problems and that's why I bought a second Saab. FWIW, I had a '94 900 with a power antenna and never had a problem with it and never had to clean it to keep it working. If they are a problem now, I'm sure you'll get some responses here.

    In the meantime, hears how I respond to poor service: "That's an unacceptable solution, when is your next available time to schedule a service and loaner car?"

    Good Luck, don't let them get away with not correcting the problem.

    Drew S.
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    FREDERICKFREDERICK Member Posts: 228
    No, there was no investigation. bluejays-The day you drive into the night by yourself and end up in trouble I'll ask you the same question. Thanks for the concern though!

    I did no damage other than to myself and the car. We're talking black as night desert and there wasn't anything between me and the desert for 20+ miles.

    The car rolled laterally and from what I could tell when I dorve back out to the accident sight there was little or no gas leakage. I almost think that my blood spot was bigger than the oil spot the car left.

    The road was almost completely flat with nothing more that a graded flat spot for the road. I think if I'd just gone straight I never would have ended up in the situation I did.
This discussion has been closed.