Jeep Wrangler Maintenance and Repair Questions (1997 - 2006)

olivajcarmineolivajcarmine Member Posts: 4
I have a 2005 Jeep wrangler 4.0 auto, when driving over 50 MPH I hear a steady thump I can not hunt down were it is coming from. At speeds lower than 50 there is no noise. The noise does not get louder with any more speed. Any ideas would be much appreciated. only minamal vibration is felt with this noise.


  • rselfrself Member Posts: 9
    did the wheel bounce or did it wobble back and forth?
  • 06tj4banger06tj4banger Member Posts: 39
    Since most of the people posting on the other Jeep Wrangler discussion aren't having problems I thought that it would be more appropriate to start a new topic. Quick recap on my probems...water leaks through the doors/windshield gaskets into the floorboards when it rains or I wash my Jeep. The soft half doors have already been replaced, but it did not stop the leaking. I have a return appointment next week to replace the gasket/seal around the windshield. Unfortunately, the top of the drivers side door still leaks so this probably won't fix water coming in there. I have pulled up the carpet on the drivers side and rust spots are already forming on the floorboard. I really hate having to deal with this because I love everything else about this Jeep. If I find a solution, I will let you guy's know ASAP.

  • njbamadogznjbamadogz Member Posts: 26
    Good idea Rob about starting a new forum. As you know, I have the same problem with my 2005 Jeep Wrangler Sport.

    Has been to two different dealerships for a total of three times. All the seals have been replaced around the doors and windshield and the full metal doors have been realigned by the dealership's body shop twice. Still leaking. The water pours in at the top of the doors (both passenger and driver's side) and pools on the floor, soaking the carpeting. :mad:

    I cover the Sport with a tarp when it rains. The sales mgr. at the dealership where I bought the Sport said it was unacceptable that this was happening and said he would take care of it -- that was two weeks ago.

    The "official" statement from Chrysler is that there is nothing they can -- or will -- do at this point. It's my problem they said. And they also said that Wranglers are designed to leak. :confuse:

    This car is a lemon :lemon: plain and simple. I love it, but it is going to be trashed from water damage. It is unacceptable that this brand new Sport, with only 3300 miles on it has such a major structural problem and that Chrysler will not do something about it.

    Wranglers are covered by a bumper-to-bumper warranty. The bottom line is that when two different dealerships tried to fix this water leaking problem, they admitted that there was a problem and that it was not "normal" that this was happening. If it truly was a design characteristic, and the car was designed to leak, they would have never tried to fix it in the first place. In my opinion, this is a breach of warranty situation, which is what I am checking into now.

    I do not believe that the Lemon Law is the way to go, as it is time consuming -- not to mention that Chrysler will not admit that there is a problem to begin with -- and, while we do the Lemon Law thing, our Jeeps are still leaking... :cry:
  • 06tj4banger06tj4banger Member Posts: 39
    Well, I just picked her up yesterday. Both doors have been replaced, drivers side door adjusted and seals/gasket replaced but it still leaks. They ordered another door because they thought it was bent?? Anyway, I think this is a manufacturing defect that cannot be fixed, so for right now I am probably going to pull the carpet out of the front as it is starting to smell bad.

  • njbamadogznjbamadogz Member Posts: 26
    It is most definitely a manufacturing defect in certain Wranglers. My suspicion is that all of the leaking 2005 & 2006 Wranglers were manufactured at a certain time and at a certain manufacturing plant.

    Someone screwed up somewhere. Chrysler caught the mistake and remedied it (that's why all the 2005 & 2006 Wranglers do not leak, only some) and hoped that the people who bought the leaking Wranglers would complain a little bit, kick up a little dust, then go away.

    If convertible Sebrings were leaking, they couldn't ignore it, because owners could not pull them apart and dry them out. If they were leaking, the cars would be trashed, one, two, three.

    Taking out carpeting and removing drain plugs can easily be done in a Wrangler. It just so happens that Wranglers can be dismantled -- and are meant to be taken apart, which works to Chrysler's advantage in this case. They can ignore leaking Wranglers, because, given the fact they are rough and ready vehicles, the party line could be that they are "designed" that way, are "supposed" to leak and what the cars are doing is not unusual.

    So what's you next step?

    No word from the dealership where I bought the Sport. I am not holding my breath waiting for the sales mgr. to get back to me at this point. I think he was initially surprised and concerned and told me he would fix the problem, but when he looked into it was told by Chrysler to ignore the situation and not return my calls. (It's been two weeks since our conversation and I have called him three times with no response.)
  • harnoisharnois Member Posts: 1
    I own a 2001 Wrangler Sahara with a similar problem. However, mine only exists on the driver side. I actually sat in my wrangler during a rain storm one day to see where the water was draining over onto my carpet. In my jeep, it drains over right at the apex of the lower right hand corner looking at it from the inside (The lowest corner of the doorjam towards the pedals). To remedy it, I simply closed a plastic shopping bag in that corner of the door. When I went to my jeep this morning, it had been raining all night, and the bag had worked as it redirects the water from going over the plastic framing onto the carpet, and seeps it back out the door. The only issue being that some water is now caught in the bag, and I accidently dumped the water onto myself and onto my carpet again... haha. But for the most part, the bag had stopped the water.

    This is by no means any sort of permanent solution. I agree that it should be fixed permanently. Unfortunately, I have yet to find a good solution in my 4 years of owning the vehicle. Your guesses are as good as mine, and I sure don't like it looking as though I closed groceries in my door whenever it rains outside, but for now, it seems to be doing the trick.
  • 06tj4banger06tj4banger Member Posts: 39
    They just called and said they have the new door in, so I'll have to drop by after work and see what happens.
  • 06tj4banger and njbamadogz...I'm really sorry to read of the leaking Wrangler problems you're both experiencing. Have either of you written letters to DMC? I have no experience dealing with DMC but I have had success using letters to rectify problems with a Chevy dealer and a Toyota Sienna. I had on-going service repair issues with a Chevy dealership and product design/failure issue with my Toyota. The problems were serious enough for me to feel I was getting the shaft after spending so much money as we do on new vehicles. I've worked for many years in technical customer support for computers, electronics, and software. In those years, I found written letters just seem to hit managers and get quicker, higher-quality responses than phone complaints.

    If you haven't written a letter, try it. Call the DMC customer support phone line and ask for the contact name and address to which you can send a letter of complaint. Stay completely calm, business-like, professional, and to the point. The customer support representative may be happy to hear they won't have to deal with you on that spot immediately and may get talkative while they look up the contact address. During that time, try to get a name of a director or vice-president of the product quality division.

    You may have to research a little on the DMC corporate website to find directors' names but I think you'd be in the right to send copies of what you write to those individuals as sure your letters state you're copying that letter to those "higher ups" so they know you've started, yet, another paper trail that may lead a senior manager back to them if they don't act.

    In writing the letter, stick to facts and you should clearly state your emotional dissatisfaction with their product but that you honestly wish to continue patronizing their products if they can find a way to rectify their mistake. You can throw a little jab in about them reluctantly forcing your hand to look at competitor's products (especially if you name-drop Toyota...they're very scared of them).

    Forgive me if you've already been down this path. I honestly feel a written letter(s) to the corporate mothership will get you much farther and ironically, faster than phone calls to the corporate customer support line and face-to-face with dealerships.

    I wish you both luck.
  • 06tj4banger06tj4banger Member Posts: 39

    Thanks for the info. I have had very few experiences with dealing with companies at a national level, but they all say the same...they let the local people decide and if they say no then you are out of luck.

  • 06tj4banger06tj4banger Member Posts: 39
    They opened the box from the parts department and realized that they ordered the wrong part :cry: They ordered a replacement window for the drivers side from another dealership. They were hoping to get it from a another dealership because soft half doors are on national back order and it could take several weeks to get one in. I don't believe it's the soft half door because this is the third attempt at a has to be the steel half door. You have to pull on the door hard and try to jerk it out of the steel door section...I think something is wrong with the inside of the steel door where the rods from the soft half are supposed to fit into it. So, while I wait for the door, I am going to get some sealant from the hardware store and put it on the front and top of the soft half door and put it back on after it dries to see if that makes a difference.

  • njbamadogznjbamadogz Member Posts: 26
    Rob -

    Man, oh man, what a mess! It's just one thing after another!

    I rec'd a call from the sales mgr. at the dealership where I bought my sport today. He said they are now ordering a whole new soft top for the car. :confuse: They still have no idea WHY it is leaking, but they figure they might as well throw a new top of the Sport. :confuse:

    Then he told me that Chrysler says that when his service mgr. went to order the top, he was told that the 2005 soft tops are "currently unavailable" which leads him to believe that Chryslers thinks there is a problem with them and are scrambling to try to fix it. (Keep in mind, Chrysler STILL says there is no problem, so how they intend to fix a non-problem is beyond me. But they are sticking to their guns.)

    Anyway, I asked the sales mgr. what happens if this doesn't work. And he said "then we go to Lemon Law...but Chrysler is good that way...they never let it get that far."

    Whatever the heck that means...will continue to keep you posted...
  • gopsulionsgopsulions Member Posts: 1
    I've had my 2005 Wrangler for 7 months, and the windshield cracked. This wouldn't be a big deal if I'd gotten unlucky and a big stone hit it or something.

    This is different. I have twin cracks eminating from the edges of my defrost vent, starting upwards and then taking a sharp turn towards the sides. I noticed them first yesterday after driving in a snow storm with the defroster on pretty high. Today, I drove it again, and after the car cooled down and I got back in the cracks had spread. Anyone else have a similar problem?
  • jeepguy2jeepguy2 Member Posts: 1
    I have a 2001 Wrangler, replaced brakes and rotors at 9000 miles,I had great brakes for that 9000 miles but after dealer put new brakes on they have never been the same, my wife drives it most of the time and almost has to stand up on them to get jeep to stop!! took it back to dealer and they said nothing was wrong, we argued and that was it, I only went up one tire size, shouldnt make that much difference, anyone having brake problems like this? love to hear from you, thanx, Barry
  • drewmeisterdrewmeister Member Posts: 168
    Try another dealer to make sure. I had this problem on a Windstar minivan. Had the brakes redone at a Firestone service center, and they didn't grab as well, and began making a "grinding" noise. Took it back several times, was told they were fine. Then, they "resurfaced" the pads. Basically taking them off and sanding them. Still no good.
    Took it to a Goodyear service center, and they said "well, the other guys didn't understand that your van has to have ceramic pads".
    Long story short, I had to pay for the job twice, but the second time it got done correctly. Totally fixed the problem. Just posting my experience in case it helps anyone, but it may not be the same problem.
  • fayevalentinefayevalentine Member Posts: 1

    I have a 2005 Rubicon that has the same water leak problem. Can you tell me, did have any luck stopping the problem with a new door?

  • 06tj4banger06tj4banger Member Posts: 39
    Sorry it took so long to reply, but I haven't been on Edmunds in a while. Door replacements have not fixed the problem. I am thinking now that water leaks are just the nature of the beast with Wranglers.

  • njbamadogznjbamadogz Member Posts: 26
    No Rob, leaks are not the nature of the beast with new Wranglers. My 2004 Sport never leaked. My 2005 Sport leaks even when there is a light rain. It's a defective automobile and that's all there is to it. Do not give up. :mad:

    I am dropping the Sport off at the dealership where I bought it tomorrow so they can replace the soft top. Right after my attorney called the dealership, the new top (which I had been told for over a month was "unavailable") magically appeared. ;)

    If a new top doesn't fix the problem, we are going with the Uniform Commercial Code and I will be parking the car on the dealer's lot and calling in the media. (I will still have to make the car payments in order to preserve my credit rating, but Chrysler is not getting away with this.) Lemon Law is not the way to go.

    And BTW there is a recall notice out on all 2005 & 6 Wranglers (and other Chrysler vehicles) for a transmission problem. Seems that Chrysler made a mistake when building some of their cars. They can't seem to stay in park without the emergency brake being on. "Whoops" Chrysler says. "My bad." :P

    Will keep you guys posted on progress...
  • njbamadogznjbamadogz Member Posts: 26
    I am picking up the Sport tomorrow. It's been at the dealership for a week. The top they ordered was the wrong color (grey, should have been black.) They say the Sport is not leaking anymore now that the new top is on. As soon as I get it home, I will be checking it myself to see how watertight it is. If the water leak problem has been fixed by replacing the original top with a new soft top, then everyone who has a 2005 or 6 Wrangler that leaks should call their respective dealerships and request new tops. Will kepp you posted...
  • njbamadogznjbamadogz Member Posts: 26
    The Sport is still leaking. When the water-tested it for the second time, it leaked as badly as before. So it is still at the dealership service dept. and I did not pick it up today as planned. The sales mgr. who is working with me is going to call Chrysler and find out what they want to do (or are prepared to do) now, as there is another 2005 on their lot that leaks as badly as my 2005 Sport. So a new soft top was not the solution to the mysterious leaking problem. As always, will keep you guys posted in case you have a Wrangler that is leaking also. (I'm not giving up or in on this one.) :lemon:
  • penelopy74penelopy74 Member Posts: 1
    I own an 89 jeep wrangler. I just moved to Oregon and found that the rain and my jeep do not mix well. My problem is that the water seems to pour down my legs coming from my clutch area. It does this on the driver side and passenger side. No mechanic can find it and I was wondering if anyone seems to have any advice. My sisters Jeep is starting to do this too, so I wasn't sure if maybe it was a chronic Jeep problem.
  • jontowjontow Member Posts: 1
    Have you checked the cowl(sp?) area? That vent just behind the hood
    and below the windshield. I've had it happen to a few vehicles,
    especially ones that have been parked under pine trees and the like.
    The cowl area fills up with crap, displaces water that is supposed to drain out, and it ends up in the venting system to the cabin. Other than that, I can say that my 1988 Wrangler does NOT do this currently, and never has. Mine just leaks from the roll-bar pads after heavy rain with no top on :P Other than that, make sure you check into the windshield wiper gaskets/seals and make sure it isn't running inside that way, and then down through the dash to your legs. Keep in mind, if water is getting to both sides, its gotta be getting in on both sides, or travelling through a passage that goes there. Good luck! Let us know what happens.
  • raider_jeepraider_jeep Member Posts: 1
    I had a Dodge Raider / Montero that had less problems from 33k to 36k miles. The Raider with its design flaws lasted 18 years. I've had the following problems with the Jeep Wrangler SE 2002. It took three different California dealerships to replace a broken thermostat and to remove the codes. It was fixed correctly by a San Jose Jeep Dealership. Also, there were crank sensor codes that appeared while the running cold too long code appeared. That took three weeks to replace. Also, the neutral safety switch for the clutch failed before 36K 5hrs away from home during a vacation the next week and was replaced. Also, the front shocks were leaking! All of these things were replaced under the basic warranty. Some of the california jeep dealership techs are over worked because of the poor quality of jeep parts or they are under experienced. I'm glad that the demo was purchased $7k under mrsp new. The cheap wrangler rt-s tires were replaced with bf goodrich tires at about 25k miles. The stock tires are horrible in the rain.
  • brian461brian461 Member Posts: 1
    I have 1993 jeep and the front end is so hard, does anyone no how i can make the front end softer
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    I have a 2001 Jeep Wrangler Sport, 4.0, manual trans, with 55k miles. Just went to the grocery store (fortunately only a few blocks away) using my spare key, came back out and the key wouldn't turn in the ignition. This happened once before with the spare key, I attributed the glitch to spare key and not because of a problem with the ignition or steering wheel lock. Apparently I was wrong. Anyway, I walked home in the snow/sleet (naturally), pick up my 'real' key, walked back to the grocery store to pick up the car, and no go. The original key didn't work, either. At that point, the steering wheel was locked, but I tried wiggling the steering wheel, pushing the key release button in and out several times, putting the car in neutral, putting it in different gears, making sure the clutch was fully depressed, the whole nine yards (I've had this happen before, but not on a four-and-a-half year-old vehicle with 55k miles).

    Has anyone had similar experiences with their Wrangler? If so, what's likely the problem and how much is it going to cost to fix (it's out of warranty, of course)? Is there something I'm missing or not doing right?
  • dvinkedvinke Member Posts: 1
    My heater is not working. I have replaced the thermostat and checked the coolant levels and still have no heat. The blower motor is working fine but only blows cold air when the heater is on. Any ideas of what the problem might be and how to fix it?
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
  • vatakvatak Member Posts: 8
    I have owned a 2005 Wrangler Sport for about a year now and ever since new, there has been this strange, constant squeak/squeal (probably coming from trans?) whenever the clutch pedal is fully out. If I press the pedal in, or even lightly rest my foot on it, the noise stops. Even the lightest tap will make it stop. But as soon as I take my foot completely off of the pedal, the noise returns. And it is constant.

    I took it to the dealer and they said they lubed some clutch part to make it go away. It went away for about 1000 miles, then returned as before. Took it back to the dealer again, and was told that the part was lubed again to make it stop but that the noise would most likely always return. They said they had checked with Chrysler who told them that it was "normal" and they were aware of it. Sounds fishy to me. Bottom line, my dealer said to just have this clutch part lubed every visit. Guess who gets to pay for that when the warranty runs out??

    Does anyone else have this problem or know anything about it? Does Chrysler really say this is normal?
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    It's most likely the clutch thrust/release/throwout bearing (all different words to describe the same thing). It's not normal, and should be taken care of under warranty.
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    The blower motor is working fine but only blows cold air when the heater is on.

    I've no in-depth knowledge of the HVAC system on the earlier Wranglers, but diagnosis is fairly simple.

    First, when the coolant is up to working temperature, feel both the hoses linking the heater to the cooling system. One is a flow and the other is a return.

    If one is hot and the other is cold there is no flow through the heater core. This will either be a blocked core or a faulty valve (if fitted), or even both.

    If both hoses are hot the problem will be related to the blend door inside the HVAC housing. This door directs either hot or cold air, or a mix of both, through the air ducts.

    Repair for any of the failure modes is self explanatory.
  • dixiecrawlerdixiecrawler Member Posts: 89
    When you say the front end is hard, I'm assuming your talking about the ride being rough. Am I right? If so, have there been any suspension modifications done to this Jeep? Is it stock or lifted? If it's a really rough ride you're talking about, I'm hoping it's lifted. Stock YJ Wrangler springs are pretty soft. After lifting with arched leaf springs,and keeping it sprung-under, alot of people choose to go with a spring-over conversion while putting stock YJ springs back under the vehicle. The spring-over-axle (SOA) conversion allows for about the same amount of average lift Wrangler owners go for, which is round about 4". Arched leaf springs that come with alot of lifts allow for a better ride than a go-cart with no suspension at all, but not much. Stock YJ leaves also allow for alot more flex than arched leaves. You'll lift a tire alot more often while using arched lift springs. I own an '88 (same body style as yours; YJ) and I have about 6" of lift. It rides pretty rough but I'm used to it. It takes a long time to wear or break-in arched leaf packs! Anyway, post some more details about your Jeep if this doesn't seem to help you find your problem and I'll see what I can do. - dixiecrawler
  • dag77423dag77423 Member Posts: 1
    RE: 1992 Wrangler 4WD. My son just had a scary experience. As he was traveling ~35MPH, his right front wheel locked-up and spun the vehicle around the locked wheel, onto the right road shoulder. Fortunately, he was not going faster or he might have flipped. He said the only warning he had was a loud ‘clunk’ just before it locked up. After he collected himself, he tried to move the vehicle and heard the same ‘clunk’ again…he parked it.

    What I find suspicious is that the previous owner (vehicle purchased less than 30 days ago), supposedly replaced the front wheel bearings before turning it over to my son.

    Any experience and/or knowledge regarding this problem would be appreciated.
  • mblack3mblack3 Member Posts: 10
    I have this terrible odor in my jeep it seems to smell if the ac is not on you can smell it a little when the heat is on but its worse when nothing is on at all.
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    I've no idea what it is, but if it's not being blown in by the HVAC unit, then that narrows down where it is.

    Remove the carpets and let the Jeep air out. If the smell remains then remove the seats. If it's not the carpet or the seats, then tracking down the location of the smell using your nose should now be fairly easy.
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    While you're waiting for a reply here you may want to browse through the messages in the archived discussion about mildew.

    tidester, host
  • mblack3mblack3 Member Posts: 10
    we've narrowed it down to something with the heater or ac not the carpets. its not a mildew smell it smells like vomit
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    we've narrowed it down to something with the heater or ac not the carpets.

    I guess that I misunderstood your earlier statement " seems to smell if the ac is not on...... you can smell it a little when the heat is on..... but its worse when nothing is on at all."

    If it is related the HVAC system then it either grew there, or was physically introduced i.e. someone threw up into it. If it contains vomit you'll have to clean it out (not fun), but if mould has grown inside the HVAC housing, maybe due to lack of use or a blocked condensate drain, then it can be treated with a antifungal/disinfecting spray. These vary in effectiveness depending on the type of mould and the frequency with which the A/C continues to be used. Why not get some advice from a local independent A/C specialist, as some of the sprays are designed to be injected through a hole drilled directly into a specific part of the housing.
  • mblack3mblack3 Member Posts: 10
    thank you someone told me they had the same problem with the smell and it was the ac evaperator.
  • mblack3mblack3 Member Posts: 10
    when i bought the jeep used the jack was missing.where is the jack stored while not in use under the hood or seat in need to buy on.
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    The original jack is normally stored under the rear of the passenger seat, with the accessories located on the inside of the passenger rocker panel. You could buy a small hydraulic bottle jack as a replacement.
  • mblack3mblack3 Member Posts: 10
    thank you
  • ptrippptripp Member Posts: 3
    i have a 93 wrangler with auto transmission and a/c, about 110,000
    miles.  it's been sitting idle for quite a while, but the last few
    times i've driven it, i've noticed an intermittent 'clunking/clacking'
    noise coming from down by the passenger's side floor/dash.  it only
    happens while the heater is on.  if i turn the heater off, the noise
    stops, then comes back again when i turn the heater back on.

    anyone know what this is?

    thanks very much for your help.
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    Just to clarify, is this when the heater is on, or when the blower is on?
  • ptrippptripp Member Posts: 3
    it's when the heater is on. it doesn't seem to make a difference whether the fan is on or off, or on low, or on high. i can turn the fan off but the noise is still there. but if i turn the heater to 'off', the noise goes away.

    i really appreciate your time. thanks!
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    If the noise had varied at different blower levels it could have been caused by movement of the internal directional flaps, or even the fan blades making occasional contact.

    With that ruled out it only leaves the circulation of the coolant, though there is a very outside chance that it could be something expanding and contracting with the heat. I would guess that it could be either a partially blocked heater core, or that one (or both) of the heater coolant hoses has partially collapsed internally. Instead of coolant flowing smoothly through, pressure builds behind the blockage then pulses through.

    I'd treat it to a new pair of heater hoses, then using the new hoses, reverse flush the heater core with a garden hose.
  • ptrippptripp Member Posts: 3
    it sounds exactly as you describe it - like pressure builds up and then there's the clunking sound as the coolant flows through again. thanks very much for your help.

    i'll replace the hoses and flush the heater core. when i'm finished, i'll let you know if that fixed it. i'm pretty confident it will.

    thanks again!
  • rick9151rick9151 Member Posts: 2
    After driving at highway speed for about five miles the Jeep starts losing power and misses. If you stop and turn off engine then restart it will run fine for a few miles. Could this be fuel filter, fuel pump, or fuel pressure regulator problem. 1997 Jeep Wrangler 4.0
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    Could be, but it could be several other things as well. Has it set any codes?
  • rick9151rick9151 Member Posts: 2
    No codes. Just got back from driving about ten miles and it is running fine. I think I have some trash in my tank and it is blocking my filter at times. I am going to pull my tank and clean it. Do you recommend changing fuel pump since I will have tank dropped and theJeep has 90k on it.
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    Do you recommend changing fuel pump since I will have tank dropped and theJeep has 90k on it.

    I guess it depends on the depth of your wallet! ;)

    Dropping the tank isn't particularly hard, but be careful disconnecting the wiring and the vent hose. The pump is more likely to be close to failure if you regularly run the tank to nearly empty before filling.
  • bailey11bailey11 Member Posts: 1
    Hi folks!
    I have a 2002 wrangler with an automatic transmission. I have a problem stopping on icy roads--especialy when backing down or going forward on a hill. I try to go slowly and prepare, but I often have to shift into neutral to come to a complete stop. I love this jeep, but it's very frustrating to go through this every winter! thanks in advance for any help...
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