anything comming from the government is a BAD idea. i as a tax payers don't want to subsidize american LOSERS who can't afford to buy a decent car. let them ride the bus with the rest of the riff raff.in la most of the clunckers are driven by illegal aliens, i sure don't want to help them stay in this country.
'spyder, you crack me up! "Bring out your dead!!! Bring out your dead!!! Collect $4500 for each body." I'm gettin' a picture...
Hey, if they, the Congress, drag this out long enough, my "Beach Week" this year is the second week in August down your way at the OBX. Might have to put ol' Bessie on a trailer and bring 'er by your place before we put up the beach umbrella and slap on the lotion. You could then say you've had your 51st clunker of the month stop by for a test drive...
Keep 'em comin' ya'll. The banter here is entertaining if nothing else.
I needed a part for my 1989 Cadillac Brougham - a windshield wiper fluid level switch - and the only new one in existance was at a dealer in Douglas, Wyoming. There are no aftermarket makers of this component. I contacted the Wyoming dealer. The parts department manager was friendly and helpful and shipped the part to Philadelphia in less than a week. Hopefully, this dealership will be one that survives all the closings.
While C4C detractors are quite justified in their concerns, I do agree that there might also be spin-off benefits here that aren't so clear as the dollar calculations. For one thing, automakers needs profits to plough back into "green technology".
One of my biggest concerns is that the USA will drag its feet on green tech, giving Europe and Asia a competitive edge that we will never regain--thereby ending up buying one MORE thing from them.
anything comming from the government is a BAD idea. i as a tax payers don't want to subsidize american LOSERS who can't afford to buy a decent car. let them ride the bus with the rest of the riff raff.in la most of the clunckers are driven by illegal aliens, i sure don't want to help them stay in this country.
The number of distortions in this brief paragraph is truly astounding. I assume you pay as much attention to your facts as you do to your grammar.
The poll reveals, however, the obstacles that remain in the way of the public option and broader reform efforts. Many Americans are concerned that their own health care may be compromised if the government is involved, and while they are generally willing to pay more in taxes for universal coverage, that support drops when dollar amounts are mentioned.
I think your fears on C4C are well founded. I would be surprised if 20% of the sales generated are from the D3. With Ford having the best chance selling their made in Mexico Fusion.
Saw a clip on early tv news this morning that someone with a 17 mpg clunker suv could trade in on a new 19 mpg suv and get $3500 govt rebate under Congress' clunker plan.
On Shiftright link to "Americans want govt health care", 2 points:
- Poll/study by CBS/NY Times. Can we trust them to poll correctly and without bias?
- Anyone knowing of friends, relatives, neighbors who are US military vets from WWII, Nam, etc should ask them about the quality of medical care they get from VA, a US govt agency. Do Americans want VA level of care?
I think you may be right--the D3 don't have a very big market share right now, and it's even smaller when you factor out the gas-guzzling part of the market. But it's not just the D3 manufacturers that matter here--Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, et al do a significant amount of manufacturing in the US, and they do use a lot of US suppliers for components. Dealerships also will benefit from the increased traffic--which in turn suggests that maybe the requirement that the vouchers only be used for new cars might miss a substantial opportunity to help out small businesses and the poor.
I think we need to put this feeble attempt at kick starting the economy into perspective. The projected GDP for the USA in 2009 is 6.3% less than 2008. Which is about $880 Billion dollars. So throwing $1 billion at the problem is totally insignificant to virtually the whole US population. It may benefit as many as 250k buyers. And it may just push them into more debt they do not really need. We are looking at 7 million less vehicles being sold this year than in 2007. 250k vehicles is about an increase in sales of 3%. More corporate welfare is all we are going to see from C4C. A few high pressure car salesmen will have a good month. Some of the excess inventory will be dumped. There is a shortage of large SUVs right now, so maybe they will open those plants back up.
Americans are increasingly "brand neutral" anyway. More and more each year, they don't care what brand of car they buy--they want the best deal and a car that suits their needs. Trying to steer the voucher plan toward domestics is impossible these days.
I suspect the Kia and Hyundai are going to enjoy this incentive plan.
I suspect the Kia and Hyundai are going to enjoy this incentive plan.
I'd expect Kia, Hyundai, Ford and Nissan to be in the best position to take advantage of it, as they all offer reasonably economical and reliable vehicles at low "price per pound."
I also suspect the biggest sales boost to be in the area of four-cylinder midsize sedans, rather than at the very bottom of the market.
Anyone knowing of friends, relatives, neighbors who are US military vets from WWII, Nam, etc should ask them about the quality of medical care they get from VA, a US govt agency. Do Americans want VA level of care?
I have a better question.
Know anyone on Medicare? Ask them how much a health care policy with coverage similar to what they have through Medicare would cost from a private insurer like BCBS on the open market.
What you " would like" and what the government is going to afford are 2 different things. We'll probably get more like what the typical VA type insurance from the government. Wealthier people will pay for their own private insurance in addition to the government plan, to get premium medical care comparable to current private plans.
Anyway if the government does pass universal health insurance, I think I'd benefit from that, even though my health coverage might decrease. If I have government paid health care, I'll retire early - no need to hold down a full-time job for the benefits. I'll get in a much lower tax bracket, and put less $ into this ridiculous government system.
The government seems intent to increase spending and increasing taxes in various ways, and that is spurring me and many others to play the Game, and get around this system.
If I'm not allowed to keep my $, and instead start supporting everyone else who has screwed-up somehow, then I'm dropping out of supporting the system. I'm going to become one of the people who need the freebies and bailouts! :P
If I'm not allowed to keep my $, and instead start supporting everyone else who has screwed-up somehow, then I'm dropping out of supporting the system. I'm going to become one of the people who need the freebies and bailouts!
This statement reveals a fundamental flaw in your argument--the assumption that only those who have "screwed up" are suffering from the current economic downturn.
You missed the word "somehow" right after that. That covers just about everyone from those who dropped out of high-school to those who work hard and believed their realtors and stock-advisors.
The point is that there will be more and more people resenting working hard and the end of the day not having anything to show for it, because their taxes are going to support others.
I am not in favor of giving $ to people for these clunkers, or to buy houses, or whatever else the giveaway-of-the-day is.
That strikes me as a "do nothing" approach, which sometimes is just fine, but in critical times is probably not a good idea.
One has to look at these incentives, aid, etc. as *very* temporary measures. They aren't going to be permanent because they are utterly unsustainable anyway.
Count me in. I have a 1998 windstar with 150,000 miles on it. While it pains me to trade in this vehicle that might have another 100,000 miles to go (together with the realization that the government is simply printing up money in the process), nonetheless I can't take the chance that the windstar could crap out and leave me with nothing. If I trade in on a diesel Jetta, I get $4500 + $1,300 credit for diesel + $550 value of the sales tax write off = $6400 incentives. Plus my mpg doubles. Just trying to figure how long I can string it out before I trade in and how many parts I can salvage off it. I have this mental picture of driving it into the dealership sans hood or fender or two, some windows and space saver tire with the interior gutted.
Ye of little faith. Just kidding. Actually I think by '98 ford had the bugs worked out of it. I had the transmission flushed every 30,000 miles and it seems solid. Head gasket holding together. About 3 sensor gizmos went bad at once at 135,000 miles and I had to take the top off the intake manifold and clean the carbon out, but it runs great since then. The transmission on my brother's caravan went at 130,000 and now the CEL is on and it has a burnt electrical smell.
That strikes me as a "do nothing" approach, which sometimes is just fine, but in critical times is probably not a good idea.
It seems to me that even with a booming economy, the typical U.S. citizen was not saving, was going deeper in-debt, and was investing in bubble-markets. The trade imbalance was very large. "Doing" stuff like spending trillions of $'s to try and return to that doesn't seem to be the solution. It is a political solution, that our politicians will try and promise an ever-increasing lifestyle.
The last 20 years has been like the sailor on shore-leave. The more the sailor spent and drank, the worse the hangar and the wallet is after the party. As a society we may have get back to basics, working hard, being innovative, saving, and rebuilding. The party's over - no more trading every 3 years and putting 20K on shuttling your 3 kids who each have a cell-phone to their next event.
I agree the spending is unsustainable. I believe the spending will simply make things worse, when it ends.
But you may be pleased to know that some very red blooded white American males also want to take advantage of the program as soon as it goes into effect. In fact the one pressing me the most to dump his clunker is a university professor ... paying cash.
You are right about this being a small effort. It shows how small the auto industry has become in the overall national economy.
Your fears for the poor souls venturing into dealerships to buy vehicles are noted but very unfounded. The lenders are the gate keepers now. Buyers are being turned down left and right with all kinds of impeccable credentials ( couples with double 750 FICO scores and family incomes of over $200,000; a buyer with $12000 equity on a $24000 vehicle; a buyer with 800+ FICO score ).
The unqualified? God help them. They won't even be considered voucher or no voucher.
$950,000,000 available for this program $4,000 average rebate claimed 237,500 rebates available
U.S population is 300million I'm guessing there will be more than 238,000 people wanting to trade there clunker in on july 1st.
How will dealers and the government handle this? How will they keep track of the funds left and what happens to completed orders based on the idea that they can get the rebate?
"Critics note that the $1 billion currently being earmarked for the plan is far short of the full, estimated $4 billion cost of the entire plan. The Detroit News reported that the first $1 billion should pay for the vouchers through Sept. 30, which is the end of the current fiscal year, citing anonymous congressional sources who were close to the negotiations"
If you like the odds that more money will be added to the program in October, you may want to take your time kicking tires. My guess is that the dealers aren't going to be willing to deal much when the first wave of vouchers hit. ADM anyone?
Folks, the EPA has posted some info regarding the proposal. In particular, it appears that the vehicle you buy does not have to be of the same type as the vehicle you are trading in. So, for example, if I want to take advantage of the program to trade in my '94 Dodge truck (EPA rated at 13 mpg combined), I can trade for a car that gets 23 or better and receive the full $4500.
The money isn't necessarily going to any failing corporation. This is another of the subtlies that was intentionally written into the legislation. If no customers go to purchase GM vehicles then GM gets ZERO money and ZERO benefits. If all the customers flock to Ford then Ford and its dealers get all the benefits.
The subtlety is that these decisions rest with the buyers. The Feds are neutral in the matter, the customer decides.
Yes precisely correct. If one has a vehicle that qualifies such as a Category 1 truck or SUV a 'trader' can purchase any vehicle that gets 5 mpg or better Combined in order to qualify for the $4500 voucher.
Explorer to Escape Tundra to RAV Tahoe to Cobalt F150 to Insight II
Why does free market capitalism get to fail miserably 10 or more times throughout our history, creating enormous suffering and mayhem, but one flop for any "deviant" form of economic thinking, and it's condemned as an intolerable form of socialist tyranny? I don't get this kind of scorecard. :P
Scoring something good or bad has to be based on its own merits and results, not solely upon its not having been tried before.
"About 10 days later, NHTSA will issue a financial credit to the dealer—assuming all program requirements have been met."
That's 10 days after the dealer submits the paperwork. The NHTSA is supposed to ensure that your purchase meets the requirements on the day you buy the car, but I can just imagine some "spot delivery" kind of situations and some interesting phone calls from your dealer.
And it is something I plan on participating in. Last April I bought a 1990 BMW E30 325iA Coupe with 82,600 miles (18 mpg EPA city/highway average). I poured some money into it and realize it needs a lot more ($) than I have & requires a lot more time than I have (Work 6 days a week + have a 2 1/2 year old & a 3 month old). So I'm going to trade in my clunker for cash.
I just have to find the right car. The lease is up on my wife's '07 X3 NEXT July. so I plan on buying something for her now since we're going to be over the X3's miles. We're looking for something that has the same passenger room, but with a bigger cargo area. Of course it HAS to get at least 22 mpg (city/highway average). I really wanted an E60 5 series BMW. Between the clunker cash, factory rebates, my $1000 BMWCCA discount... I could get a screaming deal on a beautiful driving car. But the 535i gets 20 combined & the 528i gets 21 combined :mad:
So I'm going to go take a look at Jetta sedans & wagons (TDI & GLI) & an Accord EXL-V6 NAV (snoozer, but utterly indestructible).
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Why does free market capitalism get to fail miserably 10 or more times throughout our history, creating enormous suffering and mayhem, but one flop for any "deviant" form of economic thinking, and it's condemned as an intolerable form of socialist tyranny? I don't get this kind of scorecard.
I think you are confusing normal 7 year cyclical recessions with failure by stating "free market capitalism get to fail miserably 10 or more times". If you don't like what comes with free market capitalism then you are free to try to turn our 230 year old system into a different system and that's what makes this country great - freedom. The voters spoke last November and what they said was "We want change".
Liberal ideas "for the common good" are, in principle, very sound. In practice they have had limited success. Be that as it may, we are well on our way down this path. Some say liberalism is a nature progression as a culture and geo-political system matures. I tend to agree.
So, like it or not this is where we are headed as a nation. Some of my core beliefs are still conservative but I am willing to be open-minded and give Big Gov't a chance and after what we've been through this past year, I believe many of my fellow Americans agree.
Now back to your regularly scheduled programming. This Cash For Clunkers dealie will generate some traffic on new car dealer's lots and that is bound to help the entire auto industry and create a few spin off jobs as well. With easy credit a thing of the past, the traffic generated will sell some cars with GOOD loans and get people thinking about America's true love affair with the automobile again. I gotta like that because I'm a car guy at heart and want to see this industry and this country strong again.
It will get better and prosperity will return. Be patient and be thankful and I'm convinced we will rise once again.
That's 10 days after the dealer submits the paperwork. The NHTSA is supposed to ensure that your purchase meets the requirements on the day you buy the car, but I can just imagine some "spot delivery" kind of situations and some interesting phone calls from your dealer.
If it is run anything like Medicare it will be several months and re-submits of paperwork to the NHTSA. There may be some dealerships not so enthused about the program after dealing with the Feds on getting their money. They will also be paying interest on that $4500 for at least 10 days and if my guess is correct, as long as several months.
Then add the fact, many salesmen doing the negotiations are playing with less than a full load of bricks. "Sorry boss I thought his was the 3.5L V6 that only got 18 MPG". How many of these desparate dealers will have cut staff during the recession? "We had to let our used car appraiser go". Should be fun to watch. Heck I may strip the good stuff off my 99 Ranger and trade for something just to get in on the fun.
If it is run anything like Medicare it will be several months and re-submits of paperwork to the NHTSA.
Has anyone heard how many new workers this bill allows the NHTSA to hire - to process the paperwork? Are they temporaries? Because if they don't hire new workers and they expect a handful of NHTSA employees to process the initial flood of applications, then it will be months before the dealers get checks.
"Sorry boss I thought his was the 3.5L V6 that only got 18 MPG".
No problem. Every trade-in appraisal form I've ever seen has included a place for the VIN, and the VIN will tell the F&I guy which engine the vehicle came with.
The F&I people are sometimes crooks, but they're not idiots. The sales people working the floor, on the other hand. . . well, that's another matter.
In fact the one pressing me the most to dump his clunker is a university professor ... paying cash.
That should be one of the very last category of citizens to get "full" rebate/voucher for trading in a clunker for a new car. What happened to the 3-t's bandied about in previous months re stimulus - timely, temporary, targetted. The "targetted" part of the program should have included some kind of means test of potential car/suv buyers such as threshhold of personal income using say 2008 1040 gross income data. Could use that with some kind of sliding scale table so that those under a certain amount of gross income would get full $4500 rebate and as income goes up, rebate diminishes to nothing.
You are assuming the wrong target. helping the consumer get out of their "clunker" into a new car is not the intention of this bill. Helping the auto industry move inventory and get some gas guzzlers off the road is the true target.
Right now, credit is still tight. Instituting a sliding scale will rally hamper the already questionable effectiveness of this bill. Why penalize someone because of how much they make or because they have the ability to pay cash. If someone can afford to pay cash, God bless them. We should all be lucky enough to be able to do this.
That's a slippery slope and I think once again confuses economics with "values". Economics is about numbers, not judging whether people "deserve" this or that.
I know, it's HARD to think that way about economics, because sometimes when you run the numbers, and they look good, the "values" don't look good on the other hand.
The "common good" means that thousands of your fellow American autoworkers might keep their jobs. Does this benefit to people in Ohio really help us out in a direct way? No, not at all. Will the government intervene to save YOUR job? Maybe, maybe not. It's not "fair". It might offend our "values".
But you gotta have faith, give these things a try, because the alternative is too grim to contemplate.
The "targetted" part of the program should have included some kind of means test of potential car/suv buyers such as threshhold of personal income using say 2008 1040 gross income data.
Well a lot of people wouldn't want to take their income tax return down to a car dealer for 1 thing. And how would the car-dealer know this was your real 1040 that you filed? Does the car-dealer need to contact the IRS, and if so how?
This bill will be full of problems, delays, and fraud.
I think last year's stimulus bill was much better, in giving most people $ that they can spend or pay off debt as they want. But then that doesn't make the environmentalists happy does it?
I think last year's stimulus bill was much better, in giving most people $ that they can spend or pay off debt as they want. But then that doesn't make the environmentalists happy does it?
This is debatable but not in this forum. the only people that benefited from that bill was the oil companies as we all used the money to pay for $4 gas. Not sure just handing a check to anyone is good for the economy.
I guess that would be a good slogan for committing political suicide in America, that's true. Even the moose wouldn't clap.
I think most Americans in fact lie between the extremes of growing grass on your roof and building nuclear power plants next to kindergartens, don't you?. :P
It's easier to sell the idea of saving gas than it is of drilling for it I think...much easier.
It's easier to sell the idea of saving gas than it is of drilling for it I think...much easier.
Not down here in Jawjah, Shifty. This is the land of the Tahoe-driving soccer mom, running 85 in a 55 zone. She won't trade because she's afraid that a smaller vehicle would be "unsafe."
well god bless 'em. I look forward to visiting the Georgia oil fields on my next vacation. :P So you don't think soccer mom's gonna go for this CFC program, eh?
So you don't think soccer mom's gonna go for this CFC program, eh?
She'd love the money, but thinks she ought to be able to spend it on whatever car she thinks is best. In other words, a new gas-guzzling monstrosity.
And for the record, no, GA hasn't any oil fields (unless you mean peanut oil), but Cousin Jake out in Texas might be able to set you up with a steady supply.
Comments
Hey, if they, the Congress, drag this out long enough, my "Beach Week" this year is the second week in August down your way at the OBX. Might have to put ol' Bessie on a trailer and bring 'er by your place before we put up the beach umbrella and slap on the lotion. You could then say you've had your 51st clunker of the month stop by for a test drive...
Keep 'em comin' ya'll. The banter here is entertaining if nothing else.
AMERICANS WANT GOVT HEALTH CARE
Back on topic here....
While C4C detractors are quite justified in their concerns, I do agree that there might also be spin-off benefits here that aren't so clear as the dollar calculations. For one thing, automakers needs profits to plough back into "green technology".
One of my biggest concerns is that the USA will drag its feet on green tech, giving Europe and Asia a competitive edge that we will never regain--thereby ending up buying one MORE thing from them.
The number of distortions in this brief paragraph is truly astounding. I assume you pay as much attention to your facts as you do to your grammar.
The poll reveals, however, the obstacles that remain in the way of the public option and broader reform efforts. Many Americans are concerned that their own health care may be compromised if the government is involved, and while they are generally willing to pay more in taxes for universal coverage, that support drops when dollar amounts are mentioned.
I think your fears on C4C are well founded. I would be surprised if 20% of the sales generated are from the D3. With Ford having the best chance selling their made in Mexico Fusion.
On Shiftright link to "Americans want govt health care", 2 points:
- Poll/study by CBS/NY Times. Can we trust them to poll correctly and without bias?
- Anyone knowing of friends, relatives, neighbors who are US military vets from WWII, Nam, etc should ask them about the quality of medical care they get from VA, a US govt agency. Do Americans want VA level of care?
I suspect the Kia and Hyundai are going to enjoy this incentive plan.
No, but we'd like to have the same level of health insurance coverage that government employees (including members of Congress) have.
I'd expect Kia, Hyundai, Ford and Nissan to be in the best position to take advantage of it, as they all offer reasonably economical and reliable vehicles at low "price per pound."
I also suspect the biggest sales boost to be in the area of four-cylinder midsize sedans, rather than at the very bottom of the market.
I have a better question.
Know anyone on Medicare? Ask them how much a health care policy with coverage similar to what they have through Medicare would cost from a private insurer like BCBS on the open market.
Anyway if the government does pass universal health insurance, I think I'd benefit from that, even though my health coverage might decrease. If I have government paid health care, I'll retire early - no need to hold down a full-time job for the benefits. I'll get in a much lower tax bracket, and put less $ into this ridiculous government system.
The government seems intent to increase spending and increasing taxes in various ways, and that is spurring me and many others to play the Game, and get around this system.
If I'm not allowed to keep my $, and instead start supporting everyone else who has screwed-up somehow, then I'm dropping out of supporting the system. I'm going to become one of the people who need the freebies and bailouts! :P
This statement reveals a fundamental flaw in your argument--the assumption that only those who have "screwed up" are suffering from the current economic downturn.
Anyone else planning to cash in on their clunker?
The Savvy Shopper: Cash for Clunkers -- Is it for You? (Edmunds Daily)
The point is that there will be more and more people resenting working hard and the end of the day not having anything to show for it, because their taxes are going to support others.
I am not in favor of giving $ to people for these clunkers, or to buy houses, or whatever else the giveaway-of-the-day is.
One has to look at these incentives, aid, etc. as *very* temporary measures. They aren't going to be permanent because they are utterly unsustainable anyway.
It seems to me that even with a booming economy, the typical U.S. citizen was not saving, was going deeper in-debt, and was investing in bubble-markets. The trade imbalance was very large. "Doing" stuff like spending trillions of $'s to try and return to that doesn't seem to be the solution. It is a political solution, that our politicians will try and promise an ever-increasing lifestyle.
The last 20 years has been like the sailor on shore-leave. The more the sailor spent and drank, the worse the hangar and the wallet is after the party. As a society we may have get back to basics, working hard, being innovative, saving, and rebuilding. The party's over - no more trading every 3 years and putting 20K on shuttling your 3 kids who each have a cell-phone to their next event.
I agree the spending is unsustainable. I believe the spending will simply make things worse, when it ends.
But you may be pleased to know that some very red blooded white American males also want to take advantage of the program as soon as it goes into effect. In fact the one pressing me the most to dump his clunker is a university professor ... paying cash.
Maybe that will quell some of your hatred.
Your fears for the poor souls venturing into dealerships to buy vehicles are noted but very unfounded. The lenders are the gate keepers now. Buyers are being turned down left and right with all kinds of impeccable credentials ( couples with double 750 FICO scores and family incomes of over $200,000; a buyer with $12000 equity on a $24000 vehicle; a buyer with 800+ FICO score ).
The unqualified? God help them. They won't even be considered voucher or no voucher.
$950,000,000 available for this program
$4,000 average rebate claimed
237,500 rebates available
U.S population is 300million I'm guessing there will be more than 238,000 people wanting to trade there clunker in on july 1st.
How will dealers and the government handle this?
How will they keep track of the funds left and what happens to completed orders based on the idea that they can get the rebate?
Cash For Clunkers Bill Passed By Congress (AOL Autos)
Consider the $1 billion "start up" money.
If you like the odds that more money will be added to the program in October, you may want to take your time kicking tires. My guess is that the dealers aren't going to be willing to deal much when the first wave of vouchers hit. ADM anyone?
How are we going to afford this very bad idea?
How have all the collectivist experiments worked out in the 20th century?
Does anyone in Washington care about the unseen consequences of these policies?
EPA page on C4C
The subtlety is that these decisions rest with the buyers. The Feds are neutral in the matter, the customer decides.
Explorer to Escape
Tundra to RAV
Tahoe to Cobalt
F150 to Insight II
Scoring something good or bad has to be based on its own merits and results, not solely upon its not having been tried before.
Here's another one:
www.cars.gov.
From their FAQ:
"About 10 days later, NHTSA will issue a financial credit to the dealer—assuming all program requirements have been met."
That's 10 days after the dealer submits the paperwork. The NHTSA is supposed to ensure that your purchase meets the requirements on the day you buy the car, but I can just imagine some "spot delivery" kind of situations and some interesting phone calls from your dealer.
I just have to find the right car. The lease is up on my wife's '07 X3 NEXT July. so I plan on buying something for her now since we're going to be over the X3's miles. We're looking for something that has the same passenger room, but with a bigger cargo area. Of course it HAS to get at least 22 mpg (city/highway average). I really wanted an E60 5 series BMW. Between the clunker cash, factory rebates, my $1000 BMWCCA discount... I could get a screaming deal on a beautiful driving car. But the 535i gets 20 combined & the 528i gets 21 combined :mad:
So I'm going to go take a look at Jetta sedans & wagons (TDI & GLI) & an Accord EXL-V6 NAV (snoozer, but utterly indestructible).
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
//////////////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
I think you are confusing normal 7 year cyclical recessions with failure by stating "free market capitalism get to fail miserably 10 or more times". If you don't like what comes with free market capitalism then you are free to try to turn our 230 year old system into a different system and that's what makes this country great - freedom. The voters spoke last November and what they said was "We want change".
Liberal ideas "for the common good" are, in principle, very sound. In practice they have had limited success. Be that as it may, we are well on our way down this path. Some say liberalism is a nature progression as a culture and geo-political system matures. I tend to agree.
So, like it or not this is where we are headed as a nation. Some of my core beliefs are still conservative but I am willing to be open-minded and give Big Gov't a chance and after what we've been through this past year, I believe many of my fellow Americans agree.
Now back to your regularly scheduled programming. This Cash For Clunkers dealie will generate some traffic on new car dealer's lots and that is bound to help the entire auto industry and create a few spin off jobs as well. With easy credit a thing of the past, the traffic generated will sell some cars with GOOD loans and get people thinking about America's true love affair with the automobile again. I gotta like that because I'm a car guy at heart and want to see this industry and this country strong again.
It will get better and prosperity will return. Be patient and be thankful and I'm convinced we will rise once again.
If it is run anything like Medicare it will be several months and re-submits of paperwork to the NHTSA. There may be some dealerships not so enthused about the program after dealing with the Feds on getting their money. They will also be paying interest on that $4500 for at least 10 days and if my guess is correct, as long as several months.
Then add the fact, many salesmen doing the negotiations are playing with less than a full load of bricks. "Sorry boss I thought his was the 3.5L V6 that only got 18 MPG". How many of these desparate dealers will have cut staff during the recession? "We had to let our used car appraiser go". Should be fun to watch. Heck I may strip the good stuff off my 99 Ranger and trade for something just to get in on the fun.
Has anyone heard how many new workers this bill allows the NHTSA to hire - to process the paperwork? Are they temporaries? Because if they don't hire new workers and they expect a handful of NHTSA employees to process the initial flood of applications, then it will be months before the dealers get checks.
No problem. Every trade-in appraisal form I've ever seen has included a place for the VIN, and the VIN will tell the F&I guy which engine the vehicle came with.
The F&I people are sometimes crooks, but they're not idiots. The sales people working the floor, on the other hand. . . well, that's another matter.
That should be one of the very last category of citizens to get "full" rebate/voucher for trading in a clunker for a new car. What happened to the 3-t's bandied about in previous months re stimulus - timely, temporary, targetted. The "targetted" part of the program should have included some kind of means test of potential car/suv buyers such as threshhold of personal income using say 2008 1040 gross income data. Could use that with some kind of sliding scale table so that those under a certain amount of gross income would get full $4500 rebate and as income goes up, rebate diminishes to nothing.
Right now, credit is still tight. Instituting a sliding scale will rally hamper the already questionable effectiveness of this bill. Why penalize someone because of how much they make or because they have the ability to pay cash. If someone can afford to pay cash, God bless them. We should all be lucky enough to be able to do this.
I know, it's HARD to think that way about economics, because sometimes when you run the numbers, and they look good, the "values" don't look good on the other hand.
The "common good" means that thousands of your fellow American autoworkers might keep their jobs. Does this benefit to people in Ohio really help us out in a direct way? No, not at all. Will the government intervene to save YOUR job? Maybe, maybe not. It's not "fair". It might offend our "values".
But you gotta have faith, give these things a try, because the alternative is too grim to contemplate.
Well a lot of people wouldn't want to take their income tax return down to a car dealer for 1 thing. And how would the car-dealer know this was your real 1040 that you filed? Does the car-dealer need to contact the IRS, and if so how?
This bill will be full of problems, delays, and fraud.
I think last year's stimulus bill was much better, in giving most people $ that they can spend or pay off debt as they want. But then that doesn't make the environmentalists happy does it?
This is debatable but not in this forum. the only people that benefited from that bill was the oil companies as we all used the money to pay for $4 gas. Not sure just handing a check to anyone is good for the economy.
I guess that would be a good slogan for committing political suicide in America, that's true. Even the moose wouldn't clap.
I think most Americans in fact lie between the extremes of growing grass on your roof and building nuclear power plants next to kindergartens, don't you?. :P
It's easier to sell the idea of saving gas than it is of drilling for it I think...much easier.
Not down here in Jawjah, Shifty. This is the land of the Tahoe-driving soccer mom, running 85 in a 55 zone. She won't trade because she's afraid that a smaller vehicle would be "unsafe."
She'd love the money, but thinks she ought to be able to spend it on whatever car she thinks is best. In other words, a new gas-guzzling monstrosity.
And for the record, no, GA hasn't any oil fields (unless you mean peanut oil), but Cousin Jake out in Texas might be able to set you up with a steady supply.