1963-1964 Cadillacs

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Comments

  • bhill2bhill2 Member Posts: 2,458
    "If the car is offered at 2X book price, it's not really for sale"

    Out of curiosity, what is your reaction to the ads where they don't even put a price? I have always felt that they are just fishing for someone to offer them more than even they think the car is worth, which annoys me. I am open to other interpretations, however.

    2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited May 2010
    I generally don't call on cars like that. It just screams "OVERPRICED"!
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    The owner either ran out of money or he realized the folly of his ways!

    A 1959 Imperial! Talk about a PIG!

    So, I wonder what happens in a case like this?

    Hopefully it's been a pay as you go deal so the guy doing the work won't get hurt but the car is now a basket case.

    I guess at some point, the shop will call the owner and tell him to bring a trailer and get this partically dissembled POS out of his shop!

    Then what?

    I would imagine this would happen pretty often. After a couple of years, people lose jobs or go through other financial trama or even die!

    I think if I owned a Resto Shop I would stay way ahead of the curve payment wise!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 56,985
    I don't think I could ever justify a real frame off restoration...you wouldn't want to drive it after restoring it. I think a car can be gone over pretty thorougly, made to look and run like brand new, without the 6 figure expense. I want to drive my old monster, not just park it. I am sure I could have my fintail made over to a high standard for 30-40K-ish at most. Some people really get into overkill.

    Regarding Caddys, the one of this era I like most is the Eldo Brougham...I'd take either/both a first or second series car.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,594
    The owner either ran out of money or he realized the folly of his ways!

    A 1959 Imperial! Talk about a PIG!

    So, I wonder what happens in a case like this?

    Hopefully it's been a pay as you go deal so the guy doing the work won't get hurt but the car is now a basket case.


    Well, in this Imperial's case, the body's all there and it's just been repainted, so I'd presume the body's all good. All the chrome and trim is off the car though, and the interior's out of it. So this one, at least, is over the hump and kind of in the final stretch, and hopefully the worst is behind it. At this point, the mechanic is just holding it until the guy can start paying again, but I don't know what would happen if the guy went bankrupt. Guess he could take him to court, file a mechanic's lien against him or something? Get possession of the car, and then either finish fixing it up, or sell it as it sits and hope to recoup what he can?

    I am kinda curious to see this '59 Imperial once it's done. I like the '57-58 much better, and LOVE the '60, but this one is a really light pastel green that I kinda like. I've heard the term "gonorhea green" thrown around before, but I think that actually refers to that really light green GM used in the late 70's. The Edsel he has is sort of a slightly burnt pink color, but I can't remember if the contrast is white or black. It's in so many pieces right now, scattered about his shop, I can't remember!
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,636
    "So this one, at least, is over the hump and kind of in the final stretch, and hopefully the worst is behind it."

    Isn't this when ads say "98%" complete? :P
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Buying a "basket case" is never a good idea. You may think it's "over the hump" but the small stuff can be the worst.

    I always liked Mopars and I thought the Plymouths, Dodges and De Sotos weren't overdone. With a '59 Imperial they just seem so clumsly and overdone.

    Thjey tried so hard to compete with Cadillac but they always fell short. Far short.

    A 1959 Lincoln may eve even worse in that regard.

    At least in my not so humble opinion.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    edited May 2010
    Exactly.

    I love it when they say 98% complete. The car comes with a new wiring harness that can be "easily installed" or " All of the A/C parts come with the car so it shold be easy to reinstall the air conditioning"

    Well, if's so easy, just do these things before you advertise the car!

    Can you imagine installing a complete wiring harness in a '59 Imperial?
  • Sandman6472Sandman6472 Member Posts: 6,925
    edited May 2010
    We had a few Sedan DeVilles growing up...a '60, '62, '64 and a '70 convertible. In '68, it was a blue/blue Eldorado. Throw in a '66 and a '72 Lincoln and then on to Pontiac's and finally a few Grand Marquis's. All great cars actually. My affluent grandfather loved his Imperials starting in 1957 and then a '59, '61, '63, '65 & finally a '67. Remember the oval steering wheels in a bunch of them.

    My dad loved his '63 Riviera and his '67 & '69 Toronado's...the front wheel drive helped when we lived up north. His biggest mistake was the '72 Ford Torino with the sporty engine...I never made it home from the dealership...had to be towed back just 5 miles from the dealer. That was our last Ford product, a problematic car for the short time we owned it!

    The Sandman :sick: :shades:

    2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)

  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    Any relatives that used to or still live in Seattle? :)
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    edited May 2010
    The following is an email the seller of the '63 Fleetwood sent me this evening.

    I did some checking to see what things have been going for at auctions around the country and what the “books” say. The thing about a 4 door car, hardtop or not, is that you have to find someone who wants one. Granted, there aren’t as many of those guys around as the ones looking for coupes or convertibles. The cut line between a number 3 and number 2 car right now is 17,500 based on auction sales (per high bid.com & research they did for me at Buyer’s Services International). A ‘64 sold for $29,700 in January at RM in Arizona. It was nicer (but not as pretty) but still. Even NADA shows 16,700 for a high 2 car. So, I don’t think I’m THAT much out of the ballpark. I am willing to work with you though.

    First of all, I know the knock on high bid. com. It's basically a sale-price only data source. There's no (or little) description that goes with it. But, I'm assuming he must've found some pretty high numbers on that site? Secondly, what is "Buyer's Services International???

    I've previously posted in here that '64 Fleetwood that sold at RM's January auction in Scottsdale. That sale is a market anomaly in my opinion. And his reference to NADA's "high #2" value assumes his car is in high #2 condition. But, I don't think it is.

    I have a recent Ebay hi bid of a 1963-64 Fleetwood that was around $10K if I recall. I think this guy is thinking his car is worth around $15K - which is what he originally wanted for it last year before he made some improvements to it - but, nothing major.

    Anybody have any other comps?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited May 2010
    NADA is wrong (as usual) by one grade. A #1 is worth $17,5K and I can prove it (see eBay listings below)

    I wouldn't waste my time with this seller---the car isn't really for sale. eBay suggests (see below) that a show car would be worth $15K-$16k, a very clean #2 or 2+ car around $12,5K to $13K, a clean driver #3 around $8K and a very decent driver around $5K.

    some older eBay sales

    GORGEOUS 1964 CADILLAC FLEETWOOD 60 SPECIAL HARDTOP WOW
    Sold Price: $12,900
    Auction end: Dec 08, 2009

    notes: unmolested, all original, pix show about a #2. Everything working, low miles.

    Cadillac fleetwood 1964 Sedan ,green,clean,new engine
    Sold Price: $6,000
    Auction end: Dec 10, 2009

    notes: decent driver

    964 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 series-under 24k miles
    Sold Price: $5,000
    Auction end: Sep 11, 2009

    notes: very decent driver

    ELEGANT RESTORED 1964 CADILLAC FLEETWOOD - RJ REYNOLDS

    (Show Quality--famous owner)
    Sold Price: $16,100
    Auction end: Nov 08, 2009

    notes: I looked at 50 hi-res photos---the car is absolutely stunning--I'd say a 94-96 point automobile. Personal registration to RJ Reynolds family. Advertised for sale for $24,900 for many months.

    1963 Cadillac Fleetwood Excellent Condition
    Sold Price: $8,000
    Auction end: Aug 23, 2009

    Sooooooo, I'd say $17.5K is way out of line unless he's got trophies and a 98 pt car. From your description, I'd say he has maybe a $9000 car.
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    Thanks for these comps. They are very helpful.

    Buyer's Services International? Anybody know that is????
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I like the four-headlighted 1957 model and 1958 model of the Imperial and also love the 1960. The two-headlighted '57 Imperial looks weird and reminds me of the owl on the Wise chips bag. The 1960 Imperial was originally to have hidden headlights and looked even more awesome than the production car.

    I always thought the front end of the 1959 Imperial was pretty heavy-handed. I wonder how much it would take to put that car back together from the point it now sits? I sure as heck won't spend the kind of money on that Imperial as that Edsel guy! You could probably buy the most-awesome 1958 Edsel sedan in existence for less than what that guy is spending.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I agree with Shifty. He really doesn't want to sell that car.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It's a factory appraisal and inspection service. They send out "inspectors" (who do not take tests or get training) to inspect cars and then, from the remote reports, they appear to generate values.

    Given the advice they gave the 63 Cadillac owner (not sure why he would have hired them???), they need to be more careful....or perhaps they are in the Barrett Jackson philosophy, of creating buying frenzies based on cheerleading the "investment" quality of a car.

    However, to be fair to all sides, no one car accurately value a car unless one sees it personally. You might get *close* but you never really know if the inspection isn't "hands on".

    Here's my GENERAL (subjective) PRINCIPLES:

    If the car's underside is not painted, and bushings not renewed, and oil stains are present, it cannot be a #2 car, plain and simple.

    If the engine compartment is not detailed, painted and clean, and if we see rusted master cylinder, chipping, shaggy hood insulation, creative battery hold-downs, etc., it cannot be a #2 car. Not never.

    A #2 car, is, to the untrained eye, "restored". A #2 car is extremely nice, top bottom, inside and out. You can't point to a dent, or rust bubbles, or warped and stained interior parts and call the car a #2.

    If a car doesn't run and the tires are flat, it's a #4, no matter what. The unknown is scary.

    Most cars one sees at local auto show and shines, or being driven on the street, are #3s.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Totally agree with you.

    A # 3 car is a VERY nice car that a lot of people would call near perfect.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think Parm's '63 Cadillac is *barely* a #3 car. The seller's representation of it is, IMO, distorted at best.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Like you said, without actually seeing it in person, it's impossible to tell.

    Some of the Ebay listings have a pace where you can open a link and hear the car's engine. Every time I've done this, for some reason, the engines sound lie they are running without oil! They always sound terrible!
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    edited May 2010
    Shifty has actually seen several high-resolution photos of this Cadillac that shows it's strong and weak points.
    The seller is asking strong #2 money. I've let him know that his own photos demonstrate its really in #3 condition. I provided him with several comparable market sales and referenced the Hemmings/CPI definition of "good" and its corresponding value. Other stuff too. So, we'll see.

    This is a perfect example of why I haven't gotten a collector car. The prevailing market data supports what I'm willing to pay. Unfortunately, seller's (at the least the one's I seem to attract) seem to be Superman-like. Market evidence just bounces right off of them. :P
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    That is because they really don't want to sell the car.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited May 2010
    Isell is exactly right. The car is not really for sale. To "sell" something at a market price, you need, by definition, a WILLING seller and a WILLING buyer open to negotiation with no hidden agendas. The seller might as well put a price tag of 17 million on the car. This is just some kind of game, and personally, not one I have any patience for (can't you tell? :P )

    I would tell the man to call me when he really wants to sell the car--that is, fully intends to see it gone.
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    edited May 2010
    Points well taken. However, this isn't some guy I just stumbled across last week. We've stayed in touch for a year during which time he said he wants to sell (gee, he wouldn't lie about a thing like that would he?). :P

    But, he did recently place a color ad in the Cadillac Lasalle Club newsletter (OK, hardly a massive marketing effort) and claims he's going to start marketing the car more agressively which I'm assuming means ebay, Hemmings, etc.

    You guys might be right. Maybe this car isn't really for sale. But, all I can do is take someone at their word and proceed accordingly. Haven't heard anything back from him yet. But, I'd say the chances of this car ever occupying space in my garage are pretty slim.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Parm, I get that newsletter, (actually more of a magazine) and believe I've seen his ad it the classified section.
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    Yup. Based on the ad, looks like it's for sale, right?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I think it's time for you to move on. Your continuing interest in this car may be a part of his stubborness.
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    Well, it's not like I've called this guy every week for the last year. Perhaps we exchanged 3-4 emails in that time. And, he just recently placed his ad in the Cadillac Lasalle Club magazine - which coincides with when I started to pursue this car in earnest. I hear what you're saying, but don't think I've crossed that line. Still, unless he has a dramatic change of heart, I'm pretty much done with this one. At this point, the ball is in his court.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited May 2010
    It's hopeless. He's out of touch with reality. It's like talking to a drunk. :P

    When I sell a car, I make a lot of effort to price it right, market it thoroughly and work with potential buyers. I've sold TONS of cars over the years ---new ones, old ones, classic ones, and I've never had to wait more than 2-3 weeks to unload one. I've also sold barn finds, rusted Mustangs, and cars nobody wanted.

    If you "can't sell your car", the solution is obvious----lower your price.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    People do the same thing with houses.

    They refuse to believe the "comps" and somehow think their house should be worth what it was three years ago.

    And, the longer they sit the harder they are to sell. Agents won't show overpriced houses.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    This is a recession for collector cars, too. Most are down 30%
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    Hmm - and Harley Earl's Corvette only brougt 925k at last weeks Mecum Auction.

    Some of the "Sold" prices on many of the cars auctioned have led me to believe there is a Sellers market in Indianapolis at least.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    That's Harley Earl's Corvette. We're talking about Jethro's small block Corvette and 99% of the other "collector" cars out there.

    Even some of the Hemi Mopars have taken a hit.

    The only cars holding their own are extreme "blue chip" cars---cars you simply cannot find anywhere.
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    edited May 2010
    The only cars holding their own are extreme "blue chip" cars---cars you simply cannot find anywhere.

    Like a 1963 Cadillac Fleetwood, right???? :P Sorry, couldn't resist.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well in a way you're right...a '63 Fleetwood hasn't changed its value in years...some call it stable, some call it stagnant! :D
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    edited May 2010
    The same thing applies to coins.

    Way back when I was in Jr. High School I was a coin collector. The rarest of the Jefferson nickles was the 1950-D.

    I took half of my paper route money and spent a whopping 15.00 for an uncirculated 1950-D that I still have.

    I recently walked into a coin shop just for the heck of it and what did I see?

    Yep, an uncirculated 1950-D nickle. It was 12.50!!

    So, tell that guy with the 63 Fleetwood that he might as well sell it now than to sit on it for 40 years!

    EDIT - There is a 1950-D Jefferson uncirculated on Ebay right now with a starting bid of 7.99!

    21 hours to go and zero bids!

    Did I pick a winner or what?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I love looking through the Ebay listings.

    You ever notice that all of the air conditioners that don't work just "need a charge"?

    Or if the transmission slips, it just needs a band adjustment?

    Of if the paint is dull, it just needs to be "rubbed out?"

    Or a car that has had a "total restoration" has an alternator instead of a generator or a dual master cylinder when it never came with one?

    Or the 62 Chevy Impala has a "original" 350 engine?

    I don't care just tell me the truth!

    A/C isn't working! - fine!

    Transmission slips may need an overhaul - fine!

    Has been converted to 12 volt - fine!

    Maybe others just don't care?
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    Because you never get a 2nd chance at a 1st impression, do what needs to be done to it before it's up for sale.

    55 years ago..........

    A few soldiers had a side business while overseas. Mine was selling their vehicles after they left the islands. The agreement included any necessary repairs under $200 without written permission from the seller, Seller pays advertising costs and 10% of the sell price to me. Because the men wanted to have their cars until they shipped out, I was pretty busy and having fun driving different cars. All were kept neat, clean, shiny, & ready for sale. I maintained a separate checking account for this "business" & mailed "Cashier" checks to the Sellers.

    1st impression = most important.
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    You ever notice that all of the air conditioners that don't work just "need a charge"?

    Totally. I couldn't agree more. If anyone ever see's me write an ad that bogus, you all have my express written consent to put a bullet in my head. Well, better aim for a leg. I'll need my brain to correct the ad. :P
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    edited May 2010
    The seller of the '63 Fleetwood has come down to $15,000. Gee, what a sacrifice! In a nutshell, I provided him with the ebay sale results for 1963-64 Fleetwoods Shifty provided. I also provided other sale data I had PLUS some current listings. Stir them all together and I told him I was in the $8,000 to $9,000 range and leaning closer to the $8K.

    While he was very gracious, he didn't agree. His response was, "Values are all over the board." Well, duuuuuuuuuuuhhhh! And, that if he wanted he could "provide comps that sold for more". I politely asked him to share them with me. We'll see. Trust me, I have no illusions that he'll suddenly "see the light" and come down to my value range.

    That whole "values are all over the board" thing is a cop out. It means, "I'm lazy and don't want to pull my head out of the sand long enough to honestly investigate what my car is truly worth in the market". I appraise commercial real estate. When a client hires me to appraise a property, do you think I have the luxury of saying, "Gee, values are all over the board"? Of course not. I have to do my homework and spend time analyzing sale data which includes weeding out those sales that aren't comparable. Whether it's real estate or collector cars, values are ALWAYS all over the board. Let me eloquently repeat. Duuuuuhhhh!!!!

    Finally, he said that if he couldn't sell it for $15K, then he'd simply hold onto it. Naturally, I responded by saying if that's the case, then his car isn't really for sale.

    And so it goes . . . . . . .
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yeah, a $2000 re-charge, most likely. :(
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Shoot, if the AC just needs a charge, then CHARGE IT!!! How can somebody be so cheap? The reality is, the compressor is shot and the rest of the system leaks like a sieve!
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    My point exactly.

    If an A/C unit needs a charge, it needs it because it leaked out somewhere.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,594
    If an A/C unit needs a charge, it needs it because it leaked out somewhere.

    Yup. I had to get my 2000 Intrepid's a/c recharged, back in October 2007. The mechanic couldn't find a leak. Well, by late 2008, it was getting weak again, but I figured I'd hold out until the following spring. Bad move, as the compressor seized up in February 2009, to the tune of about $1300. :blush:
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Not a bad move Andre.

    The compressor seizing up probably had nothing to do with the loss of freon.

    You probably had a tiny leak somewhere. These can be near impossible to find.
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    1964 Electra

    Here's a '64 Electra in comparabe condition to the '63 Fleetwood. The bidding on this one is up to about $12,000 with a few more hours to go. The Fleetwood is every bit as nice AND has a working A/C, cruise control and tilt wheel - all of which this Electra lacks.

    Just food for thought . . . . . .
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I think it's the fact the Buick is so pure and the 23,000 miles that is creating the high bids.

    That Buick is really a stripper for an Electra. No A/C. and it doesn't even have power windows. On a car like that those items are a must have in my book.

    It's Florida car. I'm surprised anyone would have ordered it that way.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Not a "comp" parm. This is a nearly pristine low miles car--easily twice the car you were looking at. The car is a 2+ or 1-. This is show quality. Even in close ups I could hardly find a flaw. Even the sill plates look new and the dash faces are pristine.

    Incredible car!
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    Not painting the wheel weights makes it a 2+. ;)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Maybe so. They'd take a point off for that while they were on their knees wiping the car with their white gloves and arguing over the authenticity of the markings seen on the tops of the manifold bolts or the stitching pattern on the underside of back seat arm rest . :P
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    The bidding on the Buick has ended now. Is there a way to see what it was bid up to and if it hit the reserve.

    Yes, that Buiick was "out of the box" like new and unlike the Cadillac, it would be near impossible to find another one anywhere near it's pristing condition.

    I agree with our HOST. Not a "comp" at all.
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