1963-1964 Cadillacs

12467

Comments

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,000
    I agree about that convertible - the brightwork looks to be of iffy quality, looks like an average car with shiny paint, a driver. The coupe looks nicer.

    If I was going after a 60 Caddy, I would want an Eldo Brougham - rare and strange.
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    With a shade over 5 days remaining (and after about 6 bids I think) on the 1960 Seville hardtop coupe, the seller has received your $45,000 estimate - assuming it's not a shill bid. This is not the first time I've seen this car on eBay. It'll be interesting to see if the seller drops his reserve.

    I agree the '60 convertible is not all stock, but personally I love those 1950's Cadillac wire wheels and consider them a worthy addition.

    Anyone out there every driven one of these? (ie., a 1959 or 1960 Cadillac) If so, what was the experience like? Is the phrase, "like a pig on stilts" being too kind? Or, are they actually rather enjoyable to pilot?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    The Eldorado hardtop is spectacular and I even like that color on that car.

    The convertable is too tarted up to me. Those wire wheels never came on it and they just don't look right. I don't know where all of these wire wheels are coming from lately but they seem to be showing up on a lot of cars, especially Buicks.

    At least they didn't hang a hokey continental kit on the back of it.

    The one with tri-power will give you about 5 MPG but that is one beautiful car!
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    There are a couple companies I think that make those Cadillac wheels. One of them is Kanter. Like I said, I think they add a nice touch. But, the white walls on the convertible are too wide for my taste. I totally agree that hanging a continental kit on the back of anything other than a Gen1 Thunderbird is totally stupid.

    Yeah, I really like the color on that 1960 Eldo Seville coupe too. Perhaps that color was common back in the day, but I've not seen very many. I was also kind of surprised to see this car with a vinyl top. Was that even available back then? Regardless, it's a stunning combination in my book.

    5 mpg? I'll bet if you kept your foot out of the outboard carbs, you could do around 10 mpg, couldn't you? (like you're going to win a fuel efficiency award even then) Then again, if you never use all 3 carbs, what would be the fun in that? :P
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I guess wire wheels are a matter of taste. To me, they are too gaudy and they are miserable to keep clean.

    Fender skirts and continental kits are an instant turn off to me but others like these too. Wide whites on cars that didn't come with them are just wrong!

    I think 10 MPG would be a a stretch and those triple carbs are nasty to keep in tune. Very few people left in this world who know who to get them working as they should. This would be a distraction if I were buying this car and not an asset.

    Then finding the 100 octane gas this car requires would be another impossible challenge. It is such a shame to detune a car like this one so it won't ping on today's gas.

    But anyone worried about gas mileage shouldn't be looking for an old Caddy

    So, make a bid yet?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The wire wheels don't look good because they are too small and too fat. The whole idea of wire wheels was to add "space and grace" to the wheel wells. I agree, they really pimp out a big American car from the 50s or 60s. They belong on either small light cars or gigantic automobiles from the 30s with 18 or 19" wheels and cavernous wheel wells.

    Chroming the wires just compounds the tastelessness, IMO.
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    Make a bid yet? LOL! The current bid on that Eldorado Seville coupe is $45,000+ which passed my budget about $35K ago. And, that's assuming I actually have a budget . . . . . which, since I now have two mortgages, really isn't even up for debate. At least, that's what my wife says (aka. She Who Must Be Obeyed). :P But, I didn't upgrade to a 3-car garage just to store my mower . . . . . . patience IS a virtue. ;)
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    1960: And it has a garage for our car.
    1968: And it has a double garage for our cars.
    1999: And it has a triple car garage for our cars.
    Today: If you know of a house for sale with a four car garage, keep it a secret from my wife. Thank you. ;)
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    I know of a nice '63 Cadillac Fleetwood for sale. I've been in contact with the owner for over a year and he's kept this car in nice condition. A/C and cruise control work. 55K original miles. I know most of the car's history. Purchased new in Beverly Hills. Not a better-than-new, Pebble Beach winner, but a very nice driver that has been faithfully preserved - with a repaint a few years ago in factory Benton Blue. Anyone have their CPI/Hemmings price guide handy? What values does it show for this car?

    I'll post jpg photos if someone can email me with instructions on how to do that.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Sedan or 4 door HT?

    Any way to verify mileage?

    This is a hard car to price, because it is not a high demand collectible. The price guides are all over the board, but Collector Car Market seems to have it about it.

    I'm thinkin' $6000 to $8000 for a no excuses, very clean driver without needs. Any shabbiness, rust spots, bad chrome pieces, corroded underside chassis, electrical malfunctions, etc, you can knock it down to around $5500.
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    edited May 2010
    The Fleetwood was Cadillac’s behemoth 4-door sedan (post-less). I must not be giving a very accurate description, because I know these cars and this one is worth at least $10K-$12K all day long (and that's probably a bit low). The owner wanted $15K for it last year, but wasn’t overly motivated to sell. Since then, he’s done some additional things like replace some interior upholstery bits along with repairing some niggling mechanical things and a new truck liner I believe. I know I’m forgetting other things he’s done. In any event, he’s now asking $17,500 which I know is WAY too high and he knows it’s high. I think he came up with that asking price under the theory of “you never know until you ask”.

    In January at their Arizona auction, RM sold a ’64 Fleetwood for $29,700 which I think included the buyer’s premium. Someone obviously really wanted that car because it sold for near the low end of RM’s estimate – which you would think, by nature, would be on the high side.

    Now, this ’63 I’m talking about isn’t quite as nice and 1964 Cadillac’s are generally more desirable given that ’64 was the first year for the 429 motor and TH transmission. Still, having said that, I think your value estimate is light. And yes, I know one sale does not a market make. But, I’ve seen decent 1963-64 Fleetwoods on Ebay receive high bids of around $11K if I recall and another dealer told me he had a ’64 Fleetwood sell “in the teens” not too long ago. Finally, I know of a 1964 Fleetwood currently listed with a Michigan dealer for $15,900 - which suggests it will eventually sell for something less.

    So yes, I think your top end estimate of $8K is light. I know his $17,500 asking price is too high. It’s value lies somewhere in the middle. But, I was hoping to get a bit more precise. ;)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Ah well we can agree to disagree but I do have a rather awesome set of tools at my disposal to crunch numbers for this market.

    For instance, I found 58 historical sales of '63 Fleetwoods on eBay and here are the numbers:

    Very Good: $8,372
    Average Driver:$4,563
    Needs TLC:$2,700

    "Real Numbers from Real Sales"

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------

    Here's a description of a '63 Fleetwood sold on August 23, 2009 on eBay for $8000

    I'm looking at the photos as we speak and the car looks beautiful inside and out.

    "1963 Cadillac Fleetwood. Garage kept. Interior and exterior in excellent condition. 76,900 miles. No restoration work has been done. Beautiful light blue exterior with white top. Call 859-576-4608 between 9:00 a.m. and
    6:00 p.m. to schedule appointment to view the vehicle."

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------

    Here's Collector Car Market current pricing:

    1963 4dr Hardtop 800 2400 5100 8225 12475

    #1 is 12, 475, which is show car./ #2 is 8225, which is very very nice.
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    What's the Ebay # for the '63 Fleetwood that sold in Aug. 2009? I'd like to take a peak at the photos.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited May 2010
    Ah, sorry----It's in a subscription database as a PDF file, so you'd have to subscribe to Sports Car Market Price Tracker. I don't see a way to extract the photos out of that read-only file. Looked real nice though.

    Here's a very low mileage, pristine-looking coupe that only bid to $8100.

    63 Coupe w/ 33,000 miles

    And of course a coupe will always outsell a sedan.

    People can dream all they want about their "asking" prices, but this is 2010 and we're in a recession. If they want $17,500 for a '63 sedan, it's going to be 2020 before they see that kind of money, and by that time a loaf of bread will cost $40.
    :P

    Sellers don't set the market, price guides don't set it, appraisers don't set it, dealers don't set it----BUYERS set the market.
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    Far be from me to be argumentative :P , but that '63 Coupe you referenced is a Series 62, which was Cadillac's entry level model. This particular one lacks A/C, tilt wheel and cruise control - all of which are included with the Fleetwood I'm referring to. A Series 62 doesn't even have a front seat arm rest. The Series 62 is below the Deville and needs an extension ladder PLUS stand on it's tippy toes just to kiss the tailpipe of a Fleetwood. Admittedly, it's a coupe. But, it's also a lowly Series 62. At best, those two issues cancel out each other. So yeah, I'd expect a Series 62 to sell for less. I've looked this car over before as it's been on Ebay quite a bit over the last couple of months - which tells me there's something goofy about it. If it were as nice as the seller portrays, it would've sold by now.

    The condition of the Fleetwood I'm talking about is at least as good as that Series 62 - if not better. It's that nice.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    4 doors = 4 lorn :P

    Well your points are well taken but I just thought $17.5K was a shocking over-price for the car, regardless of condition.

    Try to conceive of the problem this way---let's say you PAID $17.5K for it. How long do YOU think it would take YOU to resell it at that price?

    Be honest. :shades:
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    Oh, I totally agree. $17,500 is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over the market for that Fleetwood. No argument here. I wouldn't pay that much EVEN if I forgot to take my Prozac. :P Likewise, I think $8,000 is equally too low - at least for the particular one I'm referring to. Not sure I want to know, but what value(s) does the CPI book show for a '63 Fleetwood?
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    If your TV receives HD Theater, Mecum Auctions are on tomorrow & Friday 6 PM Eastern, Saturday, 2 PM. Live from Indianapolis Fair Grounds. Most of the buyers are a little liquored up, but it will give you an idea of what the market is. :)
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    Totally. I'm all over HD Theater's coverage of Mecum's Indy auction. Watched it all last night. I live less than hour from the auction site. Actually contemplated going down there yesterday just to take a look around. While Saturday is the "big day", two of the cars I was most interested in sold last night - a 1965 and a 1967 Olds 98 convertibles. (Yeah, I know, there's something wrong with me. Perhaps I was dropped on my head as a kid?). Each car sold for around $25K. If you figure a '63 Fleetwood would be worth about half that, you're in the neighborhood of $12,500 which is about what I think the Fleetwood I'm referring to (how do you post pictures?) is worth.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,605
    4 doors = 4 lorn

    I know the 2-door hardtop is going to be worth a lot more, but by that timeframe, I find myself actually preferring the 4-door hardtop! I just think the proportions are better, with the rear deck and roofline being just about perfectly sized. With the coupe, the C-pillar is just too far forward. I think it still looks good, but I just think the 4-door looks better.

    Was there ever a point in time when the value gap between the 2-door and 4-door Cadillacs got closed, or were the coupes always worth more? I'd guess eventually there was no meaningful difference; for example, I can't see my grandmother's cousin's '89 Coupe DeVille being worth any more than a Sedan DeVille.

    I started preferring the 4-door models by a wide margin over the 2-doors around the time they went to mandatory opera windows on the coupes, which I think was 1974. I think the 98 and Electra gave you the choice of hardtop coupe or landau roof with stationary opera windows in 1974, but I believe Caddy forced you to go with the fixed windows.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited May 2010
    Oh yeah, on some cars the range between 2D HT and 4D HTs isn't very great. It rather depends on how the car ended up looking in that configuration.

    But 4 door post sedans just about never equal their HT contemporaries.

    I actually prefer 4D HTs as well in most cases, especially in the '63 Cadillac. I think the coupe looks very awkward.

    CPI show a '63 Fleetwood sedan as a #3 in "good" condition for $9000. "Good" is described as "very nice condition. In fact, most casual observers would describe the vehicle as 'EXCELLENT'. 'GOOD' cars show very little wear and are driven sparingly. Many are used as weekend drivers. Many older restorations fall into this category".

    This sounds about right to me. :)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    63 Deville for sale:

    http://cars-on-line.com/22555.html

    You can add 10% premium for a Fleetwood. That's what most of the price guides do. (at most--some don't even break the Fleetwood out as a separate listing, probably because the differences are too esoteric to be reflected in sales).
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    Yup, I've seen that one. Looks pretty nice. That ad has been out there for quite a while. It's been a long time now, but I think l sent a contact email to the seller. Never heard anything back.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited May 2010
    Cars like this just aren't selling. They are like trying to sell condos.

    If I were you, I'd just go look at cars that have been listed for a while and lowball the hell out of people. This is definitely buyer's market all the way.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,605
    That silver car doesn't really do that much for me. I can't really explain why, but unless it's a Rolls Royce, silver on a car from that era just doesn't set too well with me. I think it's because it clashes with the chrome or something.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    If I were within an hour of the Mecum mess, I'd go & take it all in. Of the two 98 Olds CV, I preferred the '65, but wouldn't walk to avoid a ride in the '67.

    Having watched several episodes, checking out the different people who are players, I often wonder what their day jobs are that enable them to pay a lot of money for what they buy. The Mecum clientele would not attend a Christy's auction so where do the guys with ball caps get their money these days??

    Anybody?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    edited May 2010
    That's a nice '63 but it's a '63 and not a '64 which were much more desirable.

    And it lacks air conditioning which, at least in my opinion is a must in a 60's Cadillac.

    It's also not a Coupe de Ville. It's a 62 which was always a wannabee Cadillac.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Hey parm...just one question...are you EVER going to just buy something??
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'm going to find him a car before I die, I swear.
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    edited May 2010
    LOL! Totally a fair question. Let's see, since I joined this discussion forum well over 10 (20?) years ago, I've had/have kids in college, been through a nasty divorce, got re-married (not to the same woman - thank God!) and am in the process of selling my old house (that I bought with wife #1) for less than I owe on it. So you could say life has has gotten "in the way" of my collector car wonder-lust. :cry: HOWEVER, much like the Slinky (no references to my backbone please), I do bounce back. I'll be the first to admit I am a habitual "looker". That's the bad news. The good news is I've saved myself tens of thousands of dollars. Is it really saving when you don't spend money you don't have? :P

    In my defense, I honestly have been within a whisker of buying a collector car a few times. But, bad timing (some my fault, some not my fault) has kept me on the outside looking in. I've also held my price ground on some deals, only for the seller to find someone else who didn't. Now then, having said all that, I am pretty smitten about this '63 Fleetwood. I sell/close on my old house next week. Not doing anything until that's a done deal. But, when I listen to guys like Shifty, I get kind of demoralized. I know the seller's $17,500 asking price is stupidly high and in a recent chat with him, he now admits he's high (interpret that any way you want LOL!). But, according to Shifty, this guy would have to be willing to accept only HALF of that - which I don't see happening. As I've said before, I don't have a problem standing my ground on what I'd willing to pay for a particular car. But, it usually results in me coming away empty handed.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well you don't have to listen to me----or maybe you aren't hearing everything. I'm not telling you not to buy a certain car, only offering what the market seems to be. If a car is exactly what you've always wanted, and it makes you very happy, then don't worry about what Shifty or anybody else says about it.

    Really all I'm doing, and probably what others are doing, is telling you to go in with eyes fully open.

    Also, perhaps you may not be aggressive enough in trying to buy a car. Sometimes I've gotten a great deal by taking out my checkbook, and stating without any equivocation that I am READY TO BUY at X dollars (and I'm sincere).

    The reason someone doesn't sell at X dollars is that they think they can get Y dollars. But one day (and this day may be close or far away) they are going to wake up and REALIZE that they aren't going to get Y dollars, and maybe X dollars starts to look very good.

    I'm sort of a believer in "manifesting". If you start making real offers on cars, you're going to hit one, sure as hell. :)
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    You are to be admired for taking your time in selecting what your want.

    Many buyers are thrilled by the chase and often buy something not exactly what is desired because they are inflicted with ferver fever.

    Just as soon as you purchase a vehichle that is not 100% of what you desire, the correct 100% car will be on your buyers remorse radar.

    am in the process of selling my old house (that I bought with wife #1) for less than I owe on it.

    Selling the house short may negatively impact your credit rating resulting in a higher interest rate to buy any car. Talk to your banker & avoid a surprise. :surprise: Good Luck to you.
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    edited May 2010
    Thanks for the tip, but it's not really a short sale - which is a sale price that is not only less than what's owed, but also below market. I'm selling my house for it's current market value - which has dropped appreciably over the last few years. So, this sale won't impact my credit. It just means I'll be writing a check at closing to make up the difference.

    Part of my problem is that I am a commercial real estate appraiser. Hence my life centers around the axiom that buyer's determine market value - not sellers, as Shifty so often (and accurately) professes. Plus, I do way too much homework to find out what other comparable cars have sold for and tend to over-analyze things - all of which make me a good real estate appraiser. I'm trained to think with my head and not my heart. Unfortunately, most sellers do the opposite which is where problems arise.

    Many buyers are thrilled by the chase and often buy something not exactly what is desired because they are inflicted with ferver fever. Just as soon as you purchase a vehicle that is not 100% of what you desire, the correct 100% car will be on your buyers remorse radar.

    Good Gawd! Don't tell me that. I'm shaky enough as it is. The fact that I easily fall in love with such a wide variety of collector cars doesn't help things either. As an example, just when I think I'm convinced a hardtop is the way to go, I see a convertible that makes my knees weak. A situation that doesn't particularly instill me with a great sense of confidence - which is a problem that could be cured with an unlimited budget and an endless garage. Sadly, I have neither. :P
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 15,967
    edited May 2010
    That's a nice '63 but it's a '63 and not a '64 which were much more desirable.It's also not a Coupe de Ville. It's a 62 which was always a wannabee Cadillac.

    What would make a '64 "much more desirable"? I've been a 'car spotter' all my life--pretty accurate too--and I can barely tell a '63 from a '64. I can't think of two consecutive model years of anything back then, that were so similar from one year to the next.

    Also, honestly, from ten feet away, the ONLY way to tell a "62" model from a Coupe deVille is the tiny "Coupe deVille" script on the rear quarter is absent. The interior is not quite as nice, but it's still very much a Cadillac.

    I think a 62 Hardtop Coupe will probably bring roughly the same dollars as a Fleetwood sedan, in like condition--because it's a two-door. That said, I always thought there was something magical about a Fleetwood! The wide rocker trim, plain sides, special roofline, and downright gorgeous interior would make me, personally, take a Fleetwood over a lesser two-door model--including a Coupe deVille.

    My favorite Caddy year is '65, however.

    Bill
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,605
    What would make a '64 "much more desirable"? I've been a 'car spotter' all my life--pretty accurate too--and I can barely tell a '63 from a '64. I can't think of two consecutive model years of anything back then, that were so similar from one year to the next.

    At a quick glance, I really can't tell a '63 from a '64, but when seeing them side-by-side at car shows, and looking at pics, I do remember I liked the minor details a bit better on the '64. Also, the '64 used the more modern THM400 automatic, while the '63 used the older 4-speed HydraMatic. However, I'm not sure if the THM400 was offered from the get-go in '64, or if it was phased in? I don't think it ended up in any other cars until 1965, though.

    My favorite 60's Caddys are the '61-62. And again, I have a hard time spotting the difference, unless I see both side by side. And then I notice that I like the '62 better. One major difference here though, is that the '61 hardtop coupe had a somewhat awkward C-pillar and rear window, that just didn't look right on a car in this price class. The more formal treatment for '62 looked a lot better. The 4-window hardtop sedan also looked a bit odd in '61, but in a neat sort of way.

    As for the whole Series 62 versus DeVille thing, I don't think a higher trim level makes as much difference with cheaper cars. For example, I doubt if a '65 or so Fury VIP, Caprice, or LTD is really worth much more than its Fury III, Impala, or Galaxie counterpart, but when you get into luxury cars, I think people tend to go for the "best of the best" and seek out the highest trim levels with the most accessories. I guess you could argue that a Fleetwood 60 Special or 75 would be the best of the best of the best, but a 75 is too much of a niche vehicle because of its size. I'd guess the same would hold true of the 60 Specials as well, although I think there were a few years in there, like '61-64, where a 60 Special wasn't any bigger than a Series 62 or DeVille?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited May 2010
    I also tend to over-analyze. It took me forever to buy my MINI, and ironically, when I did, I didn't really get all that good of a "deal". But I did get the colors and options I wanted, and I did get a GOOD running car. But on paper----no----I paid retail. (and perfectly happy to have done so).

    I'll inject one of my other cliches:

    "If the car is offered at 2X book price, it's not really for sale"

    Anyone selling a '63 Cadillac 4-door for $17,500 is merely fishing for the naive buyer. Obviously, they are content to sit on the car for YEARS at that price, if that one, special, fat little fish doesn't bite.

    I pay NO ATTENTION to such grossly overpriced merchandise, no matter how *nice* it is. These cars are not really for sale, in the sense that there is really no basis for negotiation with that large a spread between asking price and "reality".

    Just put a big "X" through those ads. Time-waster!**

    **Exception--you like automotive history and wouldn't mind looking the car over as an automotive archeologist.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,642
    "If the car is offered at 2X book price, it's not really for sale"

    Nice way for hubby to keep his toy: 'But dear, I put it in the paper, I'm trying to sell it. You don't expect me to just GIVE it away, do you?'
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    egg-ZACTLY! :P

    Or it's the grim, pinched-faced, white-knuckled determination not to take a beating on the car you put wayyyy too much money into.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    edited May 2010
    Well maybe I shold have left the "much" word out but the '64's are perferred over the '63's.

    The Turbo 400 transmiaaion is "much" better than the oller transmissions that were used. They made the upgrade to the 429 engines and Auto Climate control came out in 1964. I somehow remember they changes some suspension parts too.

    The '64's have a cleaner grill and tailight treatment too. Not much different but I think just nicer.

    If you drive a '63 and then a '64 I think you'll much perfer the '64.

    And, there is nothing "wrong" with the 62 series. It's just that, to me, anyway if I'm buying a Cadillac I would want the Coupe De Ville with it's much nicer interior.

    But, that's me.

    I don't really care for the Fleetwoods. I just think they have too much excess. The Coupe De Ville for me anyway is the one to buy.

    And I agree, the 65's are my favorites!
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Yep, a lot of guys think they can recoup their restoration costs and that just doesn't happen.

    This is why I think a person is FAR better off buying a car that is "done" as opposed to a project car. People have NO IDEA who a project can and will drain your wallets!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,605
    This is why I think a person is FAR better off buying a car that is "done" as opposed to a project car. People have NO IDEA who a project can and will drain your wallets!

    Ain't that the truth! The mechanic who's working on my '57 DeSoto has a '58 Edsel 4-door hardtop that he's doing a total frame-off restoration on. I forget the series, but it's one of the bigger Mercury-based models, so either a Corsair or Citation. Anyway, once it's done, my mechanic says the guy will have about $130,000 in it! And that's just for a 4-door hardtop!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited May 2010
    How could he possibly put that much into a restoration of a car like that? Something is either terribly wrong in the Accounting Department or the adding machine is broken.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Oh, it's possible but on an EDSEL??

    And a four door??

    Andre, wait until you see the bill on your De Soto!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,605
    Andre, wait until you see the bill on your De Soto!

    Ugh, let's not go there just yet. :sick: Nowhere near $130,000, thankfully, but I won't be selling the car for a profit anytime soon. Not that that was ever the intention, anyway.
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    edited May 2010
    Admittedly, if I had my druthers and generally speaking, I'd prefer a 1964 Cadillac vs. a 1963, primarily for the upgraded powertrain. One of my ultimate dreams is to own a 1964 Eldorado in great condition. Love 'em.

    Having said that, in 1963 the 390 motor was redesigned and went on a diet. Thus, it isn't quite the lump used in previous years. Furthermore, I've been told by my 1963-64 Cadillac expert friends, who have forgotten more about these cars than I'll ever know, that the 390 used in 1963 is pretty bullet proof. And, while it doesn't have the smooth/elegant sophistication of the TH transmission available in '64, the Hydramatic used in 1963 is also very reliable. I would agree that I'd probably find that a '64 would drive better than a '63. Then again, I wouldn't be doing burnouts or challenging anybody at the local dragstrip. I'm sure a '63 drives plenty nice enough. Furthermore, the A/C system used in '63 was pretty straight-forward (ie., easier to maintain). Whereas, the Climate Control system introduced in 1964 is Rube Goldberg like in its complexity - thereby increasing your cost of ownership and frustration factor.

    In a previous post, somebody said if you're going to get a Cadillac then get one with all the bells and whistles like A/C, cruise control, tilt wheel, etc. and I couldn't agree more. That's one of the things I like about Fleetwoods. They're usually fully loaded. The one I'm considering has all of these options. Series 62's usually have limited (if any) options (though I've seen a few pretty loaded) and in 1964 the Series 62's didn't even get the 429/TH transmission powertrain.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited May 2010
    I've seen vintage Jaguars restored for less than $130,000. I wonder if someone is being taken for a nice ride here.

    I was just calculating the cost of Pebble Beach quality paint, body, interior, glass and chrome, and complete mechanical overhaul, and 4 months of straight 5 day a week labor by a professional, and I didn't come anywhere near $130K. (I hit about 85K).

    This isn't, after all, an aluminum body car with unobtainable parts or exotic mechanicals where an engine can cost $30K to re-do.

    We're talking about a mass-produced car built to more or less agricultural standards with some shiny bits added.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I was wondering what you plugged in as a labor rate?

    I mentioned before that I know a guy who has a '53 Mercury Convertable that is undergoing what will be a three year, frame off restoration.

    Now, the guy working on it alternates between the Merc and a couple of other cars he is doing. No rush to finish the Merc and that's fine for both parties.

    He sends my friend a monthly bill. It's pay as you go. One month it was 600.00, and another month 4500.00.

    He expects to have between 80 to 95,000 dollars in it when it's done.

    Even that seems nuts to me.

    But an EDSEL Sedan???
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,605
    But an EDSEL Sedan???

    Yeah, at least with that '53 Merc convertible, you'd look really good pulling a Long, Long Trailer! :shades: Dunno what labor rates are elsewhere, but I think the mechanic doing my DeSoto is around $95 per hour.

    I know some people out in Virginia, where labor rates are a LOT cheaper, and when it comes time to paint my DeSoto, I'm probably going to send it out there.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I could probably build the Great Pyramid for $130,000 at $95/hour. That's 1400 hours of labor!!!! That's working 35 weeks straight, 8 *billable* hours a day, 5 days a week.

    Was this Edsel dragged up from the bottom of the ocean?

    When people say a restoration takes 3 years, they don't mean 365 days a year...they mean on again, off again, wait time, etc.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,605
    Was this Edsel dragged up from the bottom of the ocean?

    When people say a restoration takes 3 years, they don't mean 365 days a year...they mean on again, off again, wait time, etc.


    I know that's what's been happening with this Edsel. I've seen various pieces of it around the mechanic's shop for as long as I've known him...about 3 years. As for its original condition, I have no idea, but you have me curious. I'm going to ask the mechanic the next time I see him.

    He also has a 1959 Imperial 4-door hardtop that he's been working on, in a really pale green. He said that the owner of that one ran out of money, so work on that project has been put on hold.
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