Will Green Cars Be Exciting To Drive And Enjoyable To Own?

ateixeira

Plus they cost about the same as a beach condo ... nowadays maybe TWO condos!

gagrice

Not that much difference than a loaded Highlander Hybrid @ $49k. I'll take the X5 diesel any day and get better mileage on the highway.

ateixeira

I doubt Highlanders sell for much over $40k, or those Bimmers for under $50k.

Having said that, I think that's too much for both.

gagrice

Looking at all the failures and wasted money the last few years promoting Green everything, it makes me wonder what the future holds. A few niche EVs and Plugin hybrids are not selling all that well. And when and if they do, will we have the electricity capacity to handle them? Chevy can hardly give the Volt away. Dealers are refusing deliveries on them. They sold a whopping 603 of them in January. I guess that is good considering the loss to the tax payers. CA in their usual ignorant way have mandated 1 in 7 vehicles sold have to be EV or Plugin hybrids by 2025. Obama wants one million Plugin hybrids on the road by 2015. Good luck with that. Only one plugin hybrid being sold here. At 603 per month we will have reached 28k by the end of 2015.

larsb

Well, a couple of things come to mind immediately:

1. The Prius plug-in is coming this year, so you can at the very least double your 603 per month starting when that car comes out.
2. Other manufacturers have upcoming PHEVs in the pipeline - Honda, Infiniti, Ford, others.
3. The "grid capacity" thing is a poor old argument that has been thoroughly debunked. The last study I saw said we'd have to have 10 million EV/PHEV vehicles INSTANTLY APPEAR on the roads before it became an issue. With most of the cars charging overnight at non-peak times, all would be well.

So, don't fearmonger the expansion of the EV/PHEV fleet. It won't hurt a bit, I PROMISE !!! :shades:

gagrice

It will if you and I have to give everyone $7500 to buy a PHEV.

larsb

We survived the initial hybrid tax credits, we'll survive these too...:)

stever

Look at all the failures and wasted money getting personal computers off the ground. Nothing new under the sun.

Well, there's lots of new under the sun, it's just not on my roof yet. :P

gagrice

I don't recall getting any government assistance buying a computer. I see the green agenda only producing greenbacks for corporate buddies and foreign countries.

stever

Have you forgotten that Al Gore funded the creation of the internet with public money? Think of all the hours burned money saved by your ability to get online.

gagrice

Why am I paying $50 a month for the pleasure of blogging with you then? Nothing would put a big smile on my face more than to see Al Gore sleeping in the back of his kid's Prius. Penniless after Tipper takes his lying butt to court. I put him in the same criminal camp as Madoff. Scamming the World out of $billions.

ateixeira

The cartoon is a bit ironic because it features the one truly successful green car - the Prius. 3 million of them on the road.

Not sure why Obama is even drawn in given the incentives for hybrids expired several terms before he was Pres.

gagrice

I think the idea was the Green Energy agenda has run out of gas (money). And the fact that it did little to help our economy. Cars built in Japan do not generate much in the way of jobs for Americans. That was what the Green Agenda was sold to the American people with.

ateixeira

Yeah, but to be fair, it's really about giving a segment a jump start, sparking innovation that will pay off down the road.

I still think the verdict on the Volt is still out. Dealers over-reacted to bad publicity, but the batteries are no more of a threat than any gas tank, far less actually.

It got political and the Cavutos of the world used it to attack Obama, even though the $7500 incentive bill was signed by Bush (duh...).

gagrice

My question would be. How many of the Volts got sold to corporate buyers to look green while collecting tax credits? I know GE was going to buy a pot full of them. I see a few of the leaves laying around. More practical in my opinion than the Volt. Though over priced for the average tax payer that does not need a $7500 tax credit. My understanding is you would probably have to be in the $100k AGI area to take advantage of the Credit. And not have so many write-offs to put you into the AMT category.

Why they didn't just give the dealer $7500 and not make it so messy is beyond me. The car is X amount thanks to GW Bush's generosity with your tax dollars.

stever

Why am I paying $50 a month for the pleasure of blogging with you then?

I remember Compu$erve when it was $1 a minute.

If it hadn't of been for AL, APRANET would have faded away and your fallback position would have been AT&T.

gagrice

I was never on Compuserve. I remember before getting tied into the Internet, most of my communications was Point to point with Bulletin Board services of various sorts. All of course with 2400 baud dial up modems. many advertised in Byte magazine offering all sorts of interesting games etc. Early days of flight simulator stuff. Seems like a life time ago. The Gore Bill that did move ARPANET out of the shadows onto the eventual Information Highway was significant. I heard that Senator Gore pushed the 1991 bill to be able to access online Porn. :shades:

stever

Fun days, but even so, FidoNet was a real dog.

I'm sure it won't be too many generations before the kids shake their heads at all the ICE cars we drove.

gagrice

I don't think you and I will be around to see that. But who knows? I would buy an EV if it met my needs as a runabout and was viable price wise. The Leaf or its competitors need to sell in the $15k range to be practical. For their level of comfort and utility. Right now they are about $15k too high.

stever

The real action would be more street legal golf cars. Stable tech; just need to get "safe" routes for them in the neighborhoods and some feeder paths to the malls or downtown. Then when people figure out how handy they can be, they might be more willing to spend double or triple on a real EV.

ateixeira

Volt is expensive even after the credit. Remember it's a shortened Cruze platform with 4 seats.

Volt lease is $349 with the credits while you can lease a Cruze for, what $159, maybe $179-199 well equipped?

So it takes a big leap of faith. The credits don't make it price competitive.

lemko

...the Mitsubishi MIEV? The car seems to be largely overshadowed by the Prius, Volt, and Leaf. The Prius V almost seems reasonably priced.

ateixeira

I think it sort of looks like a golf cart, too small and too extreme for the average consumer, so gaining acceptance will be an uphill battle.

Since the $7500 incentive is fixed, it does represent a bigger percentage discount, at least.

gagrice

Will this spread to other cars where high mileage claims are made?

The owner of a Honda Civic hybrid won an unusual Small Claims Court lawsuit Wednesday against the auto giant that some legal experts believe could change strategies for both Small Claims Court and class-action litigation.

A Los Angeles County court commissioner ruled that American Honda Motor Co. negligently misled Civic owner Heather Peters when it claimed the hybrid could achieve as much as 50 miles per gallon.

Court Commissioner Douglas Carnahan, who mailed his 26-page decision to Peters and Honda, awarded her $9,867.19 in damages. That is close to the maximum $10,000 allowed in Small Claims Court that the Los Angeles resident was seeking. The Times obtained a copy of the decision.

"It is a victory for Civic Hybrid owners and consumers everywhere," said Peters, a former lawyer. "Sometimes big justice comes in small packages."

http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-autos-honda-lawsuit-20120202,0,84518- 0.story

stever

lol, a small claims court judge wrote a 26 page decision? I know a guy who won a small claims case and the judge put a tick mark in a check box and signed the bottom of the form. Guess this one was a bit higher profile.

fintail

More egos wanting attention, methinks.

gagrice

I think the judge was well aware of the significance of the case. He is covering his butt on appeal. Judges hate being overturned. I hope it sticks. Though I have no idea who promised her 50 MPG. That was pretty stupid in itself. Does Honda have literature that goes beyond the window sticker with the EPA estimates?

lemko

I wouldn't be surprised if the salesman promised 50 MPG just to make a commission. Yeah, one would LIKE to believe their hybrid will get 50 MPG, but that's probably under the most ideal weather, traffic, and road conditions. In reality, your mileage will be quite less.

gagrice

The Civic Hybrid never came up to the Prius for mileage. And the Accord Hybrid was a bust for Honda. The only thing hybrid Honda can brag about is the old Insight. It set some high mileage records. I wonder if she recorded the sales transaction. I know when I bought my Nissan PU it was all recorded. So if there was ever a dispute they could see what took place. I am sure it was to cover the dealer's butt.

stever

The other case that Honda lost (not the class action one) talked about the brochure that said “Just drive the hybrid like you would a conventional car and save on fuel bills.” Apparently the only people who got the EPA mileage used hypermiling techniques.

The wrinkle in this dispute is that Honda also changed the programming (to extend the hybrid battery life) and those changes significantly lowered the mpg people were getting before the change.

gagrice

What I see happening is gas engines are improving to nearly the point of making the hybrids non starters. The Civic HF is rated 41 HWY and the hybrid 44. With a cost difference of $5000. With a savings of $400 per year in fuel it will take over 12 years to pay the difference. If the Hybrid makes it that long. I can see an EV as it fits the KISS mantra. I just cannot get excited about any hybrid so far. Too much added cost for too little gain. Same argument the gas crowd make against the diesel fans.

hpmctorque

I agree with you. It'll be interesting to see whether the comparison changes in a few years. Since hybrids are in their infancy, efficiency improvements may come faster than with pure internal combustion engine cars.

As for diesels, if diesel fuel had the tax advantage over gasoline that it enjoys in Europe (which seems justifiable since diesel requires less refining), hybrida and pure electrics would be even less viable.

imidazol97

Add in the environmental cost of the battery materials and the electric motor materials and a high mileage ICE is the best choice.

stever

Lots of the hybrid tech, like start/stop, can be added to ICE cars too, so that'll help narrow the gap.

gagrice

We are not in a good position to manufacture either Hybrids or EVs. How our leaders can promote them and further erode our balance of trade is not right. If we had a good source of Lithium and Rare Earths we could get on the manufacturing band wagon. Assembling a bunch of parts manufactured in China is not the way to go. That is the current trend in our Federal Government.

larsb

I got a solid 48 MPG average from my 5-spd 2004 HCH. If hers never got out of the 30s, there were issues either with her having a serious leadfoot, or the car's hybrid system REALLY did have a problem.

HCH getting in the 30s was seriously abnormal.

stever

Some owners of '06 to '08 models experienced big drops in mpg after their dealers did a software fix that addressed problems with the battery. (hybridcars.com).

Not everyone had a problem of course - this guy is getting 48-54 mpg on his '09 at last report.

2009 Honda Civic Hybrid: A Reader's Long-Term Car

gagrice

I see Honda is going to give the Accord Hybrid another try. If at first you don't succeed.

I think the major issue with the Civic hybrid is the flaky CVT transmission. I would NEVER buy a car with one of those. I drove a Subaru with a CVT and hated it. I like a solid shift with no slippage. I think the DSG type used in most German vehicles is the way to go.

andre1969

one of my friends had to go rescue his mother the other day, because she ran out of gas in her Toyota Prius. She figured that, becaue it was a hybrid, that it could run off gas or electric. Oops!

andre1969

I see Honda is going to give the Accord Hybrid another try. If at first you don't succeed.

I hope they do. If I was to ever buy a hybrid, I'd want something that looks like a "normal" car, like the Fusion or Altima hybrid, rather than something techno-geeky like the Insight or Prius. And, while I kinda like the Civic hybrid, it's just a bit too small for my tastes.

ateixeira

You guys missed the kicker in the story:

settlement, which would see plaintiffs get a $100 to $200 and $1,000 discount on a new Honda and trial attorneys get $8.5 million

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/02/02/california-woman-wins-civic-hybrid-lawsuit-ag- ain/

Honda loses, consumers .... lose also. Only lawyers win.

ateixeira

DI and start-stop are, IMHO, what just might spell the end of hybrids.

Elantras get 30/40 mpg now, with start-stop I bet they'll soon get those up to 35/40 or so.

At that point, a hybrid would yield only a couple of mpg.

stever

Probably should post this over in New Car? I'd Rather have an iPad but no one seems to be reading that discussion. :shades:

"A survey released by the Deloitte consulting firm in early 2012 indicated that six out of 10 Millennials would prefer to buy an electric or hybrid car rather than any other kind. However, in October 2011 the same firm also showed that consumers in general around the world expected electric vehicles to travel farther on a charge, charge more quickly and sell for less than current products. Millennials who are, almost by definition, less experienced drivers and car owners may well find the limitations of electric vehicles just as daunting as older age cohorts when it actually comes time to put one under their carport.

Their (Millennials) attitude is often, 'I don't need to get one since the one I really want I can't get.'"

Do Kids Hate Cars? (Inside Line)

gagrice

Time to reconsider the Nissan Leaf???

February 13, 2012
Obama hikes subsidy to wealthy electric car buyers

The White House intends to boost government subsidies for wealthy buyers of the Chevy Volt and other new-technology vehicles — to $10,000 per buyer.

That mammoth subsidy would cost taxpayers $100 million each year if it is approved by Congress, presuming only 10,000 new-technology autos are sold each year.

But the administration wants to get 1 million new-tech autos on the road by 2015. The subsidy cost of that goal could reach $10 billion.

The planned giveaway will likely prompt populist protests from GOP legislators, but it will likely also will be welcomed by auto-industry workers in the critical swing state of Michigan.

That welcome is critical for President Barack Obama, who is touting his support for blue-collar manufacturing programs to help offset his low public approval ratings.

The new subsidy level represents a 33 percent jump from the current $7,500 government payout for each Volt buyer, even though the Volt’s buyers are already among the wealthiest Americans. It will be offered to buyers of any new-technology autos, including battery-powered autos and cars powered by natural gas, said a White House official.

The extra money for wealthy buyers will be borrowed funds, eventually paid off by future taxpayers in all income brackets.

This one qualifies for the big tax credit:

http://www.emc4u.com/emc4u/Electric_Truck.html

ateixeira

MD gives away $2,000 so the total here would be $12,000.

That's still around $28k for a small 4 seater, but there is free EV charging in my building right now.

gagrice

I think I would use my tax credit on the Leaf. Just seems more practical as a commuter. And free charging would be a huge plus here. I see several of them around. Have only seen one Volt.

hpmctorque

I resent that my tax dollars are being used by the government to subsidize technologies that bureaucrats, with their arrogant wisdom, favor. Only a humble genius like Al Gore has the foresight to do that. I also think it's wrong that certain vehicles are favored over others to use the HOV lanes.

How do others feel about these matters?

larsb

Well, here's the reality, sir:

We have a pollution problem, and we have a gas addiction.

Promoting more fuel-efficient cars is one of the least evil things we can do with tax money.

Check out the website Citizens Against Guvmint Waste for a better understanding of where we REALLY need to "cut the pork."

I'm happy about high mileage cars, including diesels, getting tax breaks to help promote the technology to people who are too dumb to figure it out themselves.

gagrice

I agree that borrowing money to try and sell products people really do not like is poor legislation. We are stacking up debt upon debt for our grandchildren. With little chance of ever pulling out of the mess we have made. When the price of oil gets to where alternatives are viable, they will be used. So far we are not batting very well on alternatives via the Green Agenda. The real sad part about raising the $7500 to $10,000 is it will only help the well off and foreign manufacturers. Most of the Volt is foreign made. Soon to be moved to China. Most of the EVs are made in Asia. So why are we subsidizing foreign manufacturers and well to do Americans? If someone wants to be green and buy a Volt, let them pay the price. As far as I know the only incentives left are for EVs and PHEVs. Something interesting. The Prius Plug-in only gets a $2500 tax credit. 12 automakers currently qualify for a tax credit.

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/article/0,,id=219867,00.html

larsb

Gary says, "Something interesting. The Prius Plug-in only gets a $2500 tax credit."

Gary, lemme 'splain it for you:

The smaller, $2,500 incentive on the Prius Plug-in reflects the fact that the government program is based on the size of a vehicle’s battery pack. Toyota’s new plug-in hybrid uses a significantly smaller pack than the 16 kilowatt-hours of lithium-ion batteries in the Volt.

That means that Prius, at 15 miles per charge, will also get significantly less range than the Volt, which is rated to deliver about 35 miles per charge, on average. GM officials have claimed that the Chevrolet model, which they prefer to call an extended-range electric vehicle, can handle the daily needs of about 70% of American commuters without needing to fire up its internal combustion engine.

Government data suggest that the Toyota Prius Plug-in will handle only about a third of commuters’ driving without using gasoline for at least some of their daily needs.

So, thus, a smaller tax credit.