Will Green Cars Be Exciting To Drive And Enjoyable To Own?

gagrice

I am suggesting the person you have in front of you on your screen should be the same person you are picking up. That being the case I would assume that person you are picking up has a cell phone contract and associated address etc. Which gives a greater sense of security in picking the person up. We established recently that cab drivers are high targets of crime. Also with a name and face in front of you it would not be difficult to tie that to a criminal data base. It would particularly useful in CA where they have to dump 40,000 prisoners back on the street by the end of this year.

http://www.businessinsider.com/californias-prison-disaster-heres-what-you-need-t- o-know-2011-5

Mr_Shiftright

That's way too paranoid for me. I have faith in the ID system. Most thugs would not have either the resources or brains for such an elaborate scheme. They just hit you over the head.

fintail

Maybe stop prioritizing useless minor drug related crimes, and some of that would change. The corporatized prison industry (it really is one) doesn't help, either.

Crime rates vs incarceration rates are alarming - something is broken.

gagrice

Maybe stop prioritizing useless minor drug related crimes, and some of that would change. The corporatized prison industry (it really is one) doesn't help, either.

You don't go to prison for selling a lid of pot. They have already let out over 10,000 sex offenders. Most are already lost from the system that was supposed to keep track of them. It is a mess.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/27/jerry-brown-california-inmates_n_382540- 1.html

Mr_Shiftright

Green cars? Green cars?

gagrice

Why not have prisoners building green cars????

gagrice

(Reuters) - Ecotality Inc, a maker of charging stations for electric cars that won a $99.8 million grant from the U.S. Department of Energy four years ago, has filed for bankruptcy protection and said it plans to auction its assets next month.

Just say the magic word "Green" and split a $100 million dollars.

Ecotality's $99.8 million grant was awarded in August 2009 to help develop the EV Project, a network of charging stations for vehicles such as the Chevrolet Volt and Nissan Leaf in major U.S. metropolitan areas.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/17/ecotality-bankruptcy-idUSL2N0HD26E2013- 0917

Mr_Shiftright

"The San Francisco-based company is among a growing number of U.S. alternative-energy companies that have struggled or succumbed amid consumer resistance to the high cost and restricted driving range associated with electric vehicles."

it's YOUR fault.

Well, everybody clamors "OH, let the market decide" "Let's have a free market"

Okay, the market decided that EVs are generally a pain in the butt to operate.

gagrice

Okay, the market decided that EVs are generally a pain in the butt to operate.

Why does CA keep trying to force the EV on us? It will come when decent battery technology is invented. Giving Green cash to crony corporate buddies is a dismal failure.

It is the fault of those that vote for the open wallet green agenda.

stever

Why does CA keep trying to force the EV on us?

That's easy:



Move the smog to 4 Corners and let the Navajo enjoy it.

gagrice

Not sure how recent that photo is. I don't think LA is that bad anymore. San Bernardino does have nasty smog. Mostly from the cargo ships coming into the West coast ports.

I have driven past that Huge coal fired plant on highway 89 going to Lake Powell. It was beautiful blue skies and only steam vapor coming off those stacks. It is a great source of income for the Indians. Hopefully Obama does not devastate them like he is the people of Virginia, Kentucky and Indiana.

Just how many people can afford an EV? If you have less than the average Los Angeles commute of 35 miles each way, something like a Leaf would possibly do for you. I know they are marginal over 70 miles. I don't think AAA is equipped to give you enough charge to get home. Not to mention they are losing capacity as they age. If they are marginal new, after a couple years you could be spending a lot of time waiting for a tow from AAA.

gagrice

Speaking of Indians and energy. SDG&E has found it easier to set up Wind farms on Indian reservations here in San Diego County, than to get permits from the Feds and state for them. The tribe gets income and SDG&E get closer to the mandate for alternative energy. Permits now for residential solar are up to $500. I can build a house in many states with less permit fees.

stever

Dunno about that smog photo - found one that was supposedly a "free" license to use via a Bing search.

Four Corners tourism endangered by smog (coloradostatesman.com)

Rooftop solar can be a danger to firefighters, even if it's correctly installed. The permit probably pays for the inspection with some left over for training (like EMTs had to be trained to deal with EVs and their batteries).

Mr_Shiftright

"Why does CA keep trying to force the EV on us?"

Same reason they forced the PCV valve on us in 1966. (Which Detroit fought tooth and nail, by the way).

The rest of America (well the civilized parts) will continue to adopt CAL emissions regulations, just as they have for the last 50 years, and probably most states (and much of Europe) will follow California's lead in working against global climate change.

All governments subsidize new technologies, so that they don't get left behind in their development.

Without government intervention, a 2013 car from Detroit would weigh 5000 lbs, get 10 mpg and have tail fins.

texases

Just because there's a good idea (smog controls) pushed by CA doesn't mean EVERTHING pushed by CA is a good idea. EVs are a VERY expensive way to meet smog abatement needs. New cars contribute next to nothing to smog. And for about half the country regular hybrids are just as good as EVs in terms of CO2 emissions.

Mr_Shiftright

All good points. I think you have to look at EVs as an entire sub-set of technology, not just as a car. For instance, today's EVs might morph into autonomous cars run on a city grid, and so the net effects are not only about pollution, but easing overcrowding in cities, convenience, and safety.

gagrice

I just read the article about firemen not liking to fight fires in homes with solar panels. If I go solar it will not be on my roof. I would not allow them to penetrate the seal. Just asking for trouble. Too many horror stories with leaking roofs and contractors out of business.

As far as coal on Indian land, there are problems with Wind farms on Indian land also. An Indian friend told several of us that the smell under those Wind turbines is horrible from all the dead birds. It is not just hawks and Eagles it is doves and various other birds that get whacked. Those blade tips look like they are moving slow. They are moving 100 MPH in a 20 MPH wind. The ratio is 5 to 1. Not easy for birds to get out of the way fast enough. All so we can feel good about driving our Tesla.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/06/28/birdwatchers-flock-to-see-rare-bird-then- -watch-it-killed-by-wind-turbine/

Mr_Shiftright

Oh yeah right, as if Fox News give a fig about birds or indians---LOL! . One cannot really have a meaningful discussion on any subject if Fox news (or most American media for that matter) is cited as a source. One needs to consult serious outlets for information, otherwise one remains in a fog of purposeful distortion.

In reality, wind power in Europe provides about 8% of the electricity for the EU. At the current build rate, the EU will have 17%to 20% of its power from wind by 2020 and has a goal of 50% by the year 2050.

The only thing that this completely irrelevant and fluffy "bird" article will do is help in some small way to make sure America is "left behind", as it is rapidly doing in Green Tech. About 80% of Europeans support wind power initiatives and government spending for same.

gagrice

The fact is lots of birds are killed by wind farms. Here from another source for those that are closed minded to some sources.

Bird collisions have been one of the primary negatives of the recent growth in wind power across the United States and beyond. The U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service (USFWS) estimates that almost a half million birds are killed each year in the U.S. by wind turbines.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=wind-turbines-and-bird-conflic- ts

Mr_Shiftright

yeah, so...we all sit in the dark and feed the birds? Lots of animals get run over, too---stop driving?

stever

I just read the article about firemen not liking to fight fires in homes with solar panels.

The WSJ link I read was about big installations, like on Kroger roofs. Nothing about houses, but that could be a concern too I suppose.

I really think some of the discussion about firefighters letting buildings burn down because they wouldn't trust the roof panels was overly inflammatory (if you'll pardon the pun). And maybe the stories were planted by the electric utilities, who are already starting to feel the pain of their big customers cutting their power costs by going solar.

gagrice

Photovoltaic (electricity-producing) panels can be energized even if switches or breakers are turned off. In fact, the lights used by firefighters are bright enough to cause some panels to produce dangerous levels of electricity. This is a big concern in states where the use of solar panels has increased rapidly in recent years, like Arizona, California and New Jersey.

Underwriters Laboratories conducted experiments (funded by the Department of Homeland Security) that showed firefighters lights could cause solar panels to generate enough electricity to cause "lock-on" if a fireman touches an energized wire. In fact, if the wires at roof-mounted panels are damaged and come in contact with metal roofing or piping, they can cause injuries far away from the panels.

Firefighters usually access the roof when fighting a fire. Understandably, firefighters are reluctant to access a roof covered with solar panels. And it is not always a good idea to spray water on solar panels, even from a distance.

http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=74&SubsectionID=107&ArticleID=123418

stever

There were a bunch of scare stories when hybrids came out too, and not much came of it. Boiled down to just training the emergency personnel about the orange wiring and stuff, and I don't remember ever seeing a story about a rescue worker getting zapped.

texases

My problem with photovoltaics is the huge subsidies they get, resulting in them being put in places that make NO sense - money down the drain. If it isn't yellow on this map, it's a waste of money. Use them where it makes sense, they're marginal even there.

stever

Let's limit solar to the subsidies the nuclear industry gets. That should even up the playing field.

What do you think the Price-Anderson Act is worth to the General Electric and the utility companies? I figure around a hundred billion, just going by the $1 billion estimated cost to shut down TMI in another decade times some 50 commercial nuke plants in the use (not counting the billion spent in 1990ish dollars to clean up from the accident). San Onofre is going to cost $4.1 billion to decommission, so I'm probably on the low side even after doubling my estimate.

Toss in one Fukishima and you're talking real money.

You can make an argument that the US oil and gas subsidy runs between $14 and $52 billion annually. (priceofoil.org)

gagrice

I know the liberal media play up the subsidies to oil and nukes. Do they ever mention the taxes paid by the utility customers on the electricity? We the SDG&E have already been told we will be paying to decommission San Onofre. Which has provided clean energy to over 1 million homes since the 1960s. Get back to me when any wind or solar project is even working after 20 years. The deserts and mountains are cluttered with old 20+ year old solar & wind farms that are worthless. All paid for by the tax payers to install. And who is going to pay to clean them up?

gagrice

Just to keep solar in perspective. The 33 acre solar farm VW installed at their new factory only supplies 12% of their energy needs. And it is the largest such solar farm on the planet.

texases

A lot of double dipping in that source, looks like it's $10B/yr in subsidies, not $15B. I can't find a more up do date plot, but the issue really comes down to the subsidy per KW-hr:
Figure, with all categories

gagrice

Amazing how the Eco Nuts will twist facts to make themselves and their Pie in the Sky alternatives look good. At least CA isn't the only state run by fruits nuts and flakes. NY has their share as well. Corporate WELFARE to the max.

The New York Truck Voucher Incentive Program, announced by Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo last month, includes $19 million to support the purchase of electric, hybrid and compressed natural gas vehicles. The electric subsidies are a $9 million component, and there is also $10 million for the other types of trucks as well as emission control retrofits for diesel trucks. The subsidies are available in 30 counties that don’t meet federal air-quality standards.

Janet Joseph, vice president for technology and strategic planning at the authority, said in a telephone interview that the available truck subsidies cover “up to 80 percent of the incremental cost of a battery electric truck, so if the diesel version is $70,000 and the electric version is $130,000, the difference is $60,000 and we cover 80 percent of that.”

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/with-subsidies-frito-lay-buys-charger- s-and-more-electric-trucks/?_r=0

stever

Don't have the link, but I recall seeing some report recently to the effect that the solar KW-hour cost has already dropped by something like two-thirds in the last decade. That's sure to continue to fall for a while longer.

Oil and gas is a mature industry. Why subsidize the industry at all? Pennsylvania started pumping barrels of wellhead oil in 1859 - you'd think Exxon and Conoco would have figured out how to manage by now (other than by paying off Congress and the state legislatures that is).

Makes about as much sense as telling me I can't grow and sell peanuts.

texases

Just about all industries get subsidies of one type or another. Look a major league sports - sickening.

stever

Can't argue with that. :sick:

gagrice

Solar panels from China are cheaper. However their fail rates are higher. The big question is why it costs twice as much to install residential solar in the USA vs Germany. Could it be like everything else the subsidies go to the corporate oligarchs that own the President and Congress?

The whole “Why is German solar about half the price of U.S. solar?” question is one of the most important solar questions of the day. Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (LBNL) has probably most extensively studied this matter. In a recently updated version of its analysis, LBNL examines why a residential German solar system goes for $3.00/watt and a residential U.S. solar system goes for $6.19/watt.

As no surprise to anyone who follows this matter, LBNL still concludes that the massive price differences above are basically due to soft costs. But the updated study also digs into the reasons why the soft costs are (or might be) so much lower. As LBNL rightly noted, relatively little has been known about how or why various soft cost differ.

http://cleantechnica.com/2013/02/17/why-german-solar-is-so-much-cheaper-than-u-s- -solar-updated-study/

stever

More "compact" market? Interesting that the labor is cheaper.

We'll see how "green" Germany remains after the election results come in tomorrow and see if Merkel wins and if her coalition stays intact. The pro-nuke crowd was campaigning against her, and the Greens aren't really happy with her either, since she killed the cash for clunkers program there.

gagrice

Green Energy Needs to be Cheaper
So let’s invest in R&D instead of subsidies

According to International Energy Agency data, 13.12 percent of the world’s energy came from renewables in 1971, the first year that the IEA reported global statistics. In 2011, renewables’ share was lower, at 12.99 percent. Yet a new survey shows that Americans believe that the share of renewables in 2035 will be 30.2 percent. In reality, it will likely be 14.5 percent.

Solar and wind energy account for a trivial proportion of current renewables—about one-third of one percent. The vast majority comes from biomass, or wood and plant material—humanity’s oldest energy source. While biomass is renewable, it is often neither good nor sustainable.


http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/project_syndicate/2013/08/green- _energy_subsidies_for_solar_and_wind_power_aren_t_helping_let_s_invest.html

gagrice

In what could be a cautionary tale for First Lady Michelle Obama's efforts to tweak Americans' diets, Germans look set to punish the Green Party for urging that public cafeterias go meat-free on a designated "Veggie Day" each week in order to help the environment and reduce cruelty to animals. Borrowing colorfully from English, German newspaper Bild described public reaction to the idea as a (fill in the blank).

http://www.politico.com/blogs/under-the-radar/2013/09/germany-veggie-day-and-mic- helle-obama-173206.html

The Germans would be crazy to dump Merkel. What other choice do the pro nukes have? Not to mention the Vegan diet is the least healthy in the world.

Mr_Shiftright

Of course, the idea is that the cost of non-renewable energy will go up and up in the future (and it will), and thus the inefficiencies we see now in solar and wind investment start to pay off more handsomely in the future---in theory.

The big concern is that the USA will drag its tail on renewables, and be caught short in the future, whilst other countries would have developed green energy to the max, and thus sell us THEIR products and technology, and basically clean our clocks.

One can scoff at subsidies for buying an EV now with gas at $3.75 a gallon, but how 'bout at $7.50 a gallon, where it sits in some countries already?

PS: There is no such thing as 'liberal media' or 'conservative media'. All media is owned by 6 giant corporations and their differing minor emphases on "point of view" is merely a product designed for a target audience. It has no actual belief system behind it. Your media is in bed with everyone else.

gagrice

I agree that fossil fuel energy will go up and up. Hopefully we have some alternatives by then that are viable and sustainable. I know you were around in the last energy crisis of the 1970s. We subsidized $billions in Wind farms in CA. All are gone or cluttering the landscape East of Los Angeles. This is a preferable solution to me. End the subsidies and spend the money on R&D.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/project_syndicate/2013/08/green- _energy_subsidies_for_solar_and_wind_power_aren_t_helping_let_s_invest.html

Hawaii is questioning the Wind and Solar boom there as well. If you go to the Big Island and head to South Point. You will see the remains of the last Wind Farm boom. All tax dollars down the toilet.

http://www.hawaiifreepress.com/ArticlesMain/tabid/56/ID/4686/Hawaiirsquos-Future- -Abandoned-Solar-Farms-Clutter-California-Desert.aspx

gagrice

By the way a homeowner has a big solar array on his property that are all busted up and an eye sore. Not sure how long they have been there. The house was built in 1997.

Mr_Shiftright

you'd enjoy this---contractors around the country are reporting that some people demand that their solar panels be put on the NORTH facing roof---why? So that their neighbors can see them. They want the "green status".

Crazy!

You won't like this--Obama put back up the solar panels that Reagan had torn off the White House.

imidazol97

>Obama put back up the solar panels that Reagan had torn off the White House.

Now there's hypocrisy: putting solar panels up but using a separate plane for the dog to fly to Martha's Vineyard. Yup. Real green folks living there.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh please--the dog went with other cargo and personnel. Turn off rage radio.

Besides he now has two dogs, so that'll mean two planes of course.

the Prez is setting a good example. He's not a Luddite.

gagrice

I hope Obama did not put up the panels Carter installed. They were for hot water. I don't think any solar PV were worth using in the late 1970s. The PV cells I had installed on my place in Lake Havasu lasted less than 5 years. That was the mid 1980s. I will not likely give them another chance to screw me over. Unless the solar company guarantees with an insurance policy backed up by a major carrier like Farmers.

stever

Merkel won big but energy is going to be a problem area for her. Now we get to see if she continues rebates for alternative energy. If she does, that'll shift even more panels to the EU; production may not be able to keep up and that could keep prices from falling as fast as they have been in the US.

"Germany’s energy overhaul is another political and economic risk as subsidies for wind and solar power jack up electricity prices for homes and industry. The energy blueprint came after the Fukushima nuclear disaster in 2011 prompted Merkel to reverse course and back a nuclear-free Germany. That aligned her with most voters.

Merkel says changing Germany’s renewable-energy law will be her first priority in a third term. That still leaves the task of modernizing the power grid, a project she calls a matter of national pride, ingenuity and profit." (Bloomberg)

gagrice

I am glad to see Merkel win decisively. What bothers me about Solar Panels in the USA is our lack of manufacturing. I think the only US made panels are from a German company. We have dumped $millions of tax dollars into Solar companies only to see it go down the drain. GE even had the audacity to take millions and build a solar factory in China. I think getting our people back to work is a far bigger problem that GW and alternative energy. Hiring a few hundred illegals to install PV panels made in China is not going to kick start our job market. From the amount of solar salesmen I have seen going door to door I would say the tariffs have cut into their business.

http://about.bloomberglaw.com/legal-news/u-s-solar-group-offers-peace-plan-to-av- ert-trade-war/

hpmctorque

If I were a German citizen I would have voted for Merkel.

Longer term, a bigger problem for Germany than energy is its aging and declining population. I watched Zakaria GPS yesterday, and Fareed Zakaria said that France's population is projected to grow in the coming decades, and that by 2050 France's GNP may surpass Germany's. It's hard to imagine that now, and policy changes can affect demographic trends, but that outcome isn't unimaginable.

stever

There's already more people over 65 than kids in Deutschland. Just like Japan - good thing we encourage immigration.

But not having kids is about as green as you can get.

Mr_Shiftright

Zakaria is usually wrong about everything unfortunately. I don't know he it gets away with it. Usually when you're that wrong that often in business, they fire you.

Germany's REAL problem (the one nobody talks about) is that she really is the sole superpower of Europe, but she is reluctant (understandably) about flexing her muscles on her neighbors and even more, reluctant about stepping onto the world stage. France doesn't have a prayer to catch her, much less exceed her.

So I can see that Germany needs to put her energies where she can, and becoming dominant in green tech is one way to a very respectable form of remaining the only really powerful nation in Europe. I think if she built up her miltary power (which Germany could certainly do), Europe would freak out.

Whoever owns the energy will rule the world in the future. Actually I shouldn't have used that term...:)

gagrice

Whoever owns the energy will rule the world in the future. Actually I shouldn't have used that term

Germany buys nuclear energy from France and has actually increased coal power use.

Renewable power is growing, but too slowly to take up the slack from nuclear shutdowns and also reduce fossil-fueled generation. The portion of German electricity generated by renewables rose from 20.3 percent in 2011 to 21.9 percent in 2012. Unfortunately, that was largely offset by a drop in nuclear’s share of generation due to the post-Fukushima shutdowns of reactors, from 17.7 percent in 2011 to 16.1 percent in 2012. Fossil-fueled generation edged up from 352 to 356 terawatt-hours (trillion watt-hours, TWh) and its share of total electricity production barely budged: 57. 8 percent in 2011 compared to 57.6 percent in 2012.

Worse, that fossil-fueled electricity got dirtier because of the “merit-order effect”: renewable power preferentially displaces expensive natural gas from the grid rather than cheaper coal. Natural gas–fired generation decreased, but coal-fired plants, which generate more pollution and greenhouse gases, increased their output by 14.5 TWh—more than the increase in renewable generation—and coal’s share of electricity production rose from 43.1 percent to 44.7 percent. Germany’s greenhouse emissions therefore rose 1.6 percent in 2012, the increase mostly coming from CO2 emissions by coal-burning power plants—up 3.4 percent for anthracite and 5.1 percent for lignite.

http://thebreakthrough.org/index.php/programs/energy-and-climate/germanys-green-- energy-bust/

gagrice

There's already more people over 65 than kids in Deutschland. Just like Japan - good thing we encourage immigration.

No doubt our immigrants are having plenty of babies. Children are the key to the welfare vaults in the USA. Dad takes a cash job and mom stays home with the kids on the various programs. It is the American dream come true. I don't think many of them are driving Tesla's or even Prius.

I did see a Tesla S out on the highway driving through LA yesterday. First one for me.