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Will Green Cars Be Exciting To Drive And Enjoyable To Own?

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Comments

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    a survey of legal immigrants show that most elect not to have children until 203 years after arriving here.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Actually, once they get here, they quit having babies just like the rest of us.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited September 2013
    RE: Germany Energy: That's just a screed from radical outsiders in the environmental movement. Breakthrough is often criticized for making statements that cannot be backed up by any kind of diligent research. Not a credible source in my opinion, based on past performance. But hey, everyone is entitled to an "opinion" as long as it is not presented as proven fact.

    One of their typically brilliant statements on the dangers of nuclear power: "Indeed, the Fukushima nuclear power plant accident of 2011 has shown those risks to be more mythical than real."
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited September 2013
    They're not driving Teslas now, but they may be the ones who eventually buy some of the used ones Elon is forced to repurchase and resell under his guaranteed residual value program. Can you picture miled up, patinad Teslas limping along, or parked on some unmanicured front yard, next to an old F-150?

    Who's going to buy the used Fisker Karmas? While walking I saw one being driven yesterday. Beautiful car, more nicely styled than the Model S, in my opinion. I suppose I'd buy one for a price that would justify discarding it when it stopped running. Or, maybe I'd just park it in my driveway for its curb appeal. Who would/could fix the Karma's drivetrain?
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    People who move from the country to urban areas, which is a world-wide trend, tend to have significantly fewer children. Also, couples where the women have greater control over reproductive rights, have fewer children.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Also highly industrialized countries with a higher level of education and prosperity and more progressive governments will show lower, or even negative, birth rates.

    I think we may see a similar demographic split with types of cars, as appeared in the late 70s, early 80s.

    People at a higher income level ditched their gas-eating barges for smaller more economical cars, either pragmatic or luxury ones, and gave the old yachts to the poor.

    Now, perhaps high-income people will ditch more and more of their used-up gasoline cars and purchase plug-in hybrids or EVs; and so once again we'll be able to "judge" people's economic status by what they drive...but this time, not by the size, but by the propulsion unit.

    My prediction is that in 25 years one way to display your wealth will be to leave your lights on and water your lawn frequently.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,072
    edited September 2013
    Indeed, if anyone has actually been to Germany, they'll see plenty of immigrants. Assimilation however isn't so great. Zakaria probably has his own motives. Endless population growth with no strategy is not a way for a bright future.

    I don't see France out producing Germany in a mere 37 years, either. Right now, the latter is the true power of Europe and towers above its neighbors. I do see more riots and car burning in France's history, as there's a huge gap there and little being done to fix it.

    One way to see Germany really lead would be to see zillions of American Praetorian sector dollars stopped being spent there, and see it stand up for itself.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well Germany has been paid for the last 65 years or so to be America's passive restrain Air Bag against 10,000 soviet tanks, but that threat seems to have diminished considerably.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Interesting blurb in the WSJ today:

    "the most reliable and most cost-effective resources happen to be solar and wind"

    Xcel Energy said that to the Colorado PUC. (link and link)

    Might start getting cheaper to recharge your EV.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,072
    But that threat ended almost a quarter century ago. Germany can defend itself now, if given the chance. And maybe can start spending money on defense instead of fellow taxpayers here. Let them assert themselves, they've paid for any old sins long ago.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited September 2013
    Well I dunno...trains are the most efficient way to carry passengers and cargo, but do you really expect a resurgence of the railroads?

    I simply cannot convince myself that in the real world, on a real day, doing a real "thing" with a car, that driving an EV is going to be any cheaper than driving a plug in hybrid.

    RE: Germany -- it's not that big an army, certainly not the largest in Europe. They do have women combat pilots though. :) Even Italy has a bigger army, if you can get your head around that.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited September 2013
    I think the railroad of the future, for passenger traffic, will be "trains" of autonomous cars. Get close to your destination and your car will peel out of the train.

    The WSJ has a blurb up today on who's buying electric cars.

    "Owners of electric cars drive less, possibly because they are using electric vehicles primarily for short trips. [L]imited range caused many EV owners to avoid longer or discretionary trips. [B]uyers of plug-in vehicles are relatively more affluent than the average motorist. [O]wners of electric vehicles tend to cluster in the same neighborhoods and plug in at similar times."
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited September 2013
    Sounds like mostly older retired folks. Wouldn't work for young families. Real estate brokers wouldn't want to leave clients stranded, and sales people generally have to drive a lot further.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited September 2013
    "High-tech, low-emissions, a lot cleaner and quieter.

    Plug-in battery packs? Had ’em. Gas-electric hybrids? Check. Regenerative braking? Yawn.

    [Cost is] a big advantage for the electric car because gasoline was so expensive."

    It's 1910 all over again.

    Modern electric cars look to the past (Toledo Blade)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Followed a new Mercedes S400 hybrid down the Pacific Coast Highway this morning. They had to buy it for the Look at Me factor. They could have bought an S350 Bluetec and gotten much better mileage both in town and on the highway. Looks like the S Hybrids have a TMV waaaay below invoice. Must be like the Touareg Hybrid. Makes no sense to own one.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,072
    For the big dopey hybrids, I've seen a grand total of one S400 on the road, 2 LS600h, a few Panamera hybrids, and zero BMW activehybrids.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Why not both?

    The next S-class will have a diesel hybrid.

    Win-win. Great mileage in the city, great range on the highway.
  • tifightertifighter Member Posts: 3,582
    They are all buying Teslas.

    23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,669
    "The next S-class will have a diesel hybrid."

    Hard to make that combo pay. When hybrid or diesel are about breakeven, the added mpgs going from either one to a hybrid diesel just aren't worth much $$.

    Didn't I hear that the super efficient VW 2-seater diesel hybrid was, like, $100k? WOW!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Diesel hybrids make little sense from an engineering point of view. The two forms of power duplicate each others advantages, rather than complement them as in the gas hybrid.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,072
    edited September 2013
    But the big boys haven't seen a sales decrease that coincides with Tesla success. I think Tesla buyers are continuing to buy the gasoline traditionals too - they can probably easily afford it, and the incentive gift helps too.

    For the diesel-hybrid idea, I don't see it as being a big jump in expense. For MB, the diesel exists and is long-proven, just need to attach a hybrid to it. Then you can get 40 city with the hybrid and 40 highway with the diesel.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think the only configuration that make sense would be the single turbo 4 cylinder diesel tied to a Hybrid. It would have plenty of torque to keep a big S rolling a speed down the highway and electric boost off the line and around town. It looks from the TMV Mercedes is not selling the hybrids very fast.

    And now they are trying to sell an E400 hybrid rated 30 hwy. That would be crazy when you can buy the E250 Bluetec 4 matic that gets 42 MPG on the highway according to the EPA. The E hybrid is rated less in town as well.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    From what I have read about the diesel hybrid you theory is correct, they intend to use the 2.1 diesel with a hybrid system. I think they offer the hybrid as well as the diesel model ( same reason for VW) because somehow hubris are considered "greener" in North America so even though they aren't as efficient some people will buy them for the hybrid badge to be seen as environmental even though they could get more efficiently and normall at a lower price with the diesel, it just isn't seen as environmentally cool as the hybrid.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited September 2013
    Why mate the low end torque of the electric motors with the low end torque of the diesel?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited September 2013
    Because they can. ;)

    At this price point it's not like a couple of thousand makes any real difference to the bottom line.

    Also, the turbo diesel needs a short while to spool up, in that split second the electric motor would move you right along. So it could be tuned to be a lot more responsive to throttle inputs.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Why mate the low end torque of the electric motors with the low end torque of the diesel?

    Well that is my thinking as well. Why even bother with a hybrid crap when a diesel will beat it at every level except 0-60 MPH. I see people posting 37 MPG combined with the GLK 250 Bluetec. With that engine in the E you got a 40 MPG machine. With good acceleration. I don't think you can really get any greener in that size luxury. Unless you buy a Chinese EV and use Chinese made Solar panels to keep the pollution in China. There is a lot more pollution building an EV or hybrid.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited September 2013
    How long do you think it'll be before diesel hybrids appear at the drag strips?

    Green dragsters sounds like an oxymoron, but I suppose it could happen, along with claims of a lower carbon footprint than conventional dragsters.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    How long do you think it'll be before diesel hybrids appear at the drag strips?

    We used to have drag strips all over CA. Now only two left that I can find. Both up in Northern CA. Phoenix SpeedWorld is now closed up and out of business. I think it is a dead sport except for street racers. Which is not likely to happen with the cost of batteries and electronics in a hybrid.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Such a confusing sport - heard a drag racer with a blown engine complaining about a blown engine. Huh?

    Now all we need are the EV dragsters complaining about winding up their engines and having their engines unwind.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Last Drag races I went to was at the Palmer race track. A very primitive operation. Mostly primitive cars, dragsters and motorcycles. Lots of fun with friends I had not seen for years. That had to be about 20 years ago. Time flies when your having fun.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,669
    Isn't it a little CRAZY to worry about the fuel the dragster/NASCAR/F1 cars use, when there's 10,000 gas guzzlers in the parking lot that just drove 4 hours to see the race???
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think it was noise more than wasting fuel that has killed a lot of racing. I know here in San Diego we had several different race tracks. I believe the last one to call it quits was Cajon Speedway about 3 years ago. Suburbs were built up around these tracks and then the people complained of noise and traffic. Or taxes on the land became prohibitive. Other than NASCAR style racing what is left in the USA?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited September 2013
    The drag racing scene is alive and well around here. Assuming it snows and they can run their skidoos.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    Well until it is available to drive I would agree with you. I know Volvo has done it with the V60 in Europe as well, I seem to rember a review that liked it but the price was way too high, of course with the s- class the price is high already, and Mercedes has been pretty aggressive with the price of the 2.1 l diesel in other models ( without of course the extra hybrid costs). I guess we will see what they are thinking if it actually happens, and someone will get to drive it and tell us wether it works or not ( not me way out of my price range). If it actually has merit that is when we will find out ( and also whether it is outrageously overpriced compared to the othe S- class models).
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    I think you are mostly right about the reasons ( homes go up by the track and then they complain about the noise, well d'uh you bought a house close to a racetrack). There are people around here that complained about the noise of the diesel locomotives going by the house they just built near the railway tracks and want the trains to switch to electric locomotives ( also disregarding the reason they built the house near that area was because the train was nearby so they could easily commute to the city on it and avoid the traffic mess). It makes no sense at all. I also seem to recall that the property just became to valuable and may partly due to taxes, but also due to greed as the track owed could make a lot more money selling the property to developers than by running the track.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    ( homes go up by the track and then they complain about the noise, well d'uh you bought a house close to a racetrack).

    Funny Story. Developer buys 17 acres and gets approval to build 84 homes. It is right next to an egg ranch with 100k chickens. The egg ranch owner puts up a sign saying buy at your own risk. When the wind blows in your direction you will smell the chickens. Houses all get sold and soon afterwards the homeowners try to get the chicken ranch shut down. No way the chicken ranch was there long before the subdivision. My part, is I dated the now owner while in High School. Her dad was the one that started the chicken ranch. Glad to see the court make a good decision.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited September 2013
    Interesting how topics veer off course, from green cars to chicken ranches.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    Glad to hear that sometimes the home owners win. Up here I heard about the case where a junkyard which had been in business long before there we any houses around got complaints from someone who had to drive past it. First they made him put up a fence ( so apparently he put up the ugliest and tallest fence he could, then he was forced to shut down, leaving of course the clean up to the local tax payers, so thanks stupid woman who didn't want to drive by a junkyard every day and couldn't be bother to take a different route to go to work and back home, not only did you cause someone to lose his business and any other jobs associated with it, but you cost the tax payers money for no reason, and the sight is not able to be built on anyway.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited September 2013
    Developer buys 17 acres and gets approval

    Same story, but it was a fiberglass plant making tubs in a small town out near Boise. The rub was the city officials overruling their planning department and allowing the subdivision (this after years of the plant fighting to get the air quality permits in an industrial area). At least the mayor and council take all the flak and not the planners.

    Much rather have the chickens, and if you do the ranch right, the manure could power your electric car and your house and the rest of the subdivision.

    Gloucestershire farm to produce 'chicken poo' power (BBC)
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,669
    edited September 2013
    Well, there's chicken ranches, and there's the "Chicken Ranch":
    image
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Good story. When you get a lemon make lemonade. I think we should be using all that GHG put out by livestock and fowl for powering their operations.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Finally we're back on topic.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'm not convinced. The whole point of a diesel is low end torque and fuel economy--why pay more $$$ for the same thing twice?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    What you get is responsiveness, though. Zero lag. Peak torque at idle.

    Plus, you can use a smaller diesel than you would otherwise use if you have instant EV torque to move off the line. The diesel will do fine maintaining speeds on the highway.

    At low speeds, they may be going for less noise, too. These are extremely well insulated inside, but pull up to a valet and you hear the clatter clatter when you get out. The hybrid would be totally silent.

    When it's a $15,000 econobox vs. a $20,000 hybrid econobox, that's one thing. 33% more money. Let's figure the break-even, etc.

    But $95,000 vs. $90,000? That's a rounding error to them.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I wouldn't want to be the salesman who has to earn a living selling diesel hybrids to Americans. You're really getting nothing substantial for the extra money IMO.

    Just go buy a TDI and be happy.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I doubt they are on commission, and you'd have one heck of a company car...
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I don't think luxury gas hybrids are selling well. I see the Lexus hybrids are selling well below invoice. The CT 200h started out well and is now barely selling. I can't see a diesel hybrid doing any better. I notice Audi is offering the Q5 in both gas hybrid and diesel this year. They have the same city rating and the diesel has better highway. The diesel has a bunch more torque than the gas hybrid as well. And the TMV is $6k more on the hybrid. It has to be a "look at me" type that would buy the hybrid.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,072
    As "traffic engineers" continue to perpetually fail at managing traffic flow, and the rush hour grind gets worse, maybe demand will rise. Hybrid mpg for 10mph stop and go, diesel mpg and power for 75mph cruising. Seems win-win to me.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I spent a good many miles in stop n go along with slow and go traffic on this last tank of diesel. Did not seem to make any difference 25.22 MPG. I am anxious to get out on the long haul open highway and see just what I can get out of it.

    I might agree, except the Hybrid SUVs are not getting anywhere near their EPA mileage especially in city driving. Looks like Ford dumped the Escape Hybrid that got decent mileage.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,072
    My car does maybe 23-24 in the city grind, but can break 40 on the highway. There has to be room for improvement. Maybe stop start will help.

    EPA highway is 29, right? I bet on a few hundred mile haul with no detours or long slow periods, you'll be into the mid 30s.
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