2011 Hyundai Sonata

ramkat

In short, the crack case ventelation system emits a lot of oily gasses into the intake manifold. In a standard engine these gasses are mixed with the fuel / air mixture where the fuel will have a chance to 'wash' the deposits off the valves. In a DI engine there is no fuel to wash it off - therefore a faster build up of the deposits on the back of the intake valves. This is different issue from the injectors potentially clogging up.

midas69

It's a little suspicious that until yesterday there were 33 reviews with an average rating of 9.9. All of a sudden 11 new reviews show up in one day knocking the rating down to 9.7. Clearly someone with an obvious agenda.

fragilemn

Just a comment on this. I have a 2009 Sonata GLS and my glove box can rattle a little too. I have found by holding it tight against the dash, by pushing up on the door a little, I don't hear the rattle anymore. So I think in my case the latch, which on my 2009 is a small plastic pin that sticks out, goes into the hole and there is a little wiggle room in the pin hole that it can rattle against. I have thought about trying to somehow add a little mass to the pin or something to make a tighter fit, but have not tried as of yet.

So I don't know if the 2011 has a similar plastic pin situation and maybe also has a little wiggle room as well.

lancep97

Teaser for the new Sonata Hybrid.

http://www.insideline.com/hyundai/sonata/2011/2011-hyundai-sonata-hybrid-teased-- ahead-of-2010-new-york-auto-show.html

wolverinejoe80

wow! that hybrid will be awesome! a very smart way to market hybrid.

wolverinejoe80

reported gets 50-55mpg! yikes! how much? how much?

i'm waiting for turbo, but man this is very very tempting!!

bobad

It's a little suspicious that until yesterday there were 33 reviews with an average rating of 9.9. All of a sudden 11 new reviews show up in one day knocking the rating down to 9.7. Clearly someone with an obvious agenda.

You can tell something is amiss because the fuel efficiency is rated a 6.

roadie22

Very Cool! I hope they change up the appearance of the turbo just a bit as well.

midas69

You can tell something is amiss because the fuel efficiency is rated a 6.

I could actually understand this rating. Compared to all cars manufactured, it's above average, but not spectacular. Of course it's excellent for a car in it's class, that's not a hybrid.

But that's the problem with these ratings. Do you rate based on what the car is, or on what all cars are. Performance is another example. Excellent for a mid-size 4 cyl car. Not so good compared to a Ferrari. There really is no baseline.

I just found it suspicious that all of a sudden 33% more reviews pop up and the rating plummets.

darkhelmet16

Yeah, but how great does a car have to be for a rating of 9.7 to be considered "plummeting?"

midas69

In one day that's a pretty big drop. Remember the 9.7 still factors in the previous 33 reviews that had a 9.9 rating. Pretty odd that it took a month for 33 reviews to show up and only 1 day for 11 more. And it's just a coincidence that those 11 vastly downgraded the ratings from the previous 33.

It's just fishy if you ask me.

Now, with that all said, as an owner of a 2011 Limited, I think 9.9, or even 9.7 is a little generous. I think it's a great car for the money. I think it's great car for even $3K more than what I paid. But it's not a near perfect car.

craigsamuel

I was just wondering about this myself. I have owned a few motorcycles that were new and always always changed the oil at the 1000 km mark to get rid of the metal debris. Was thinking of doing this with the Sonata as well.

craigsamuel

To those wondering about the wording of the manual that states to keep the revs between 2000 - 4000...I spoke to a nice lady from Hyundai Canada and she said she has had more then a few phone calls about this.
She said it was meant for the Manual transmissions and does not apply at all to the automatics.

roadie22

I wonder if it'll be possible to do an aftermarket upgrade from the standard 2011 Sonata headlight lamps to the hybrid version...

chrisk10

That would be cool, maybe the Hybrid will get HID's as an option. Would really have liked to see Hyundai offer them as an option on the SE or Limited, and kind of dissapointed that they didn't.

m6user

I personally thought it fishy that the car was rated 9.9 after 33 reviews. If you look hard at the next 11, most were very positive. Even the one person that rated it low in the numbers wrote some very nice comments about the car. That person just gave it lower numbers across the board on the scale of 1-10. Nothing wrong with that if that's the way they feel. If you know statistics you realize that it only takes one low number to bring an average or mean down quite a bit. If you have 9 people rate it 10 and one person rate it 6 the average will be 9.6. It's not a conspiracy. I've said before, if you need a everyone to agree with your buying decision, these forums may be stressful for your psyche.

explorerx4

since you think the number is still a bit high, maybe that calls the first 33 reviews into question? :surprise:

syitalian25

No car is perfect, including this one. That being said, a 9.7 is still a higher rating than all of the competitors. It only takes one person even giving it a 6 or 5 because they were expecting to be driving a BMW 5-Series for a $20K price and are disappointed. Here are some of the competitive model's ratings. The ratings reflect how happy buyers have been with their car, and are not a great measure of which car is better anyways (I'd take a G37 over a Kizashi any day), but to each his own.

Camry - 8.5
Altima - 9.2
Malibu - 9.2
Accord - 8.5
Altima - 9.1
Kizashi - 9.5 (11 Ratings)
Infiniti G37 - 9.2 (7 Ratings)

And by the way, I rated it a 10 and my review is not on there. I think Edmunds selectively chooses which ones to include, probably based on which ones provide the most constructive criticism rather than just saying how awesome it is.

shabadoo25

The bad ratings are suspicious for 2 reasons:

1. Most brand new car owners are pretty happy with their purchase.
2. If they had bought a car and had problems, their descriptions would indicate that. However, the written parts are still good, but combined with a low rating.

syitalian25

I think it sounds worse from the outside :-p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aR9C0RXF9dY&feature=related

syitalian25

I went to the mechanic today, he said it would be better to leave it in for at least a while (he recommended 5000 miles) to allow everything to lube up nicely with the original oil, then change it. He said 7500 would be pretty high because of the metal parts. I wouldn't take his word for it since he was only about 25 and works at a Jiffy Lube, but at least that's one opinion.

midas69

since you think the number is still a bit high, maybe that calls the first 33 reviews into question?

Honestly, I put more stock in the verbiage than the numbers. There are just no guidelines on how you should rate things.

the_pill

Replying to: lancep97 (Mar 26, 2010 7:21 am)
These reviews are clearly from people with an agenda to drive the Sonata's rating down. " - Shabadoo25

You are absolutely correct. There are three of these suspicious post and I have reported all three of them to Edmunds' gate keepers.

zaken1

If you had actually observed a wide enough variety of crankcase ventilation passages; which connect from the crankcase to both the intake manifold (through the PCV valve) and to the air filter housing (in order to scavenge crankcase pressure under heavy throttle; when intake manifold vacuum at the PCV valve is too low to be useful), you would have found that the only engines which emit "a lot of oily gasses" are either older engines with high mileage on them, or engines which have been abused or received improper lubrication. An engine that is in good condition, and has less than 50,000 miles on it (and often as much as 80,000 or 100,000 miles) will not leave noticeable oil deposits in either the PCV system or the KV (upper end of the crankcase ventilation) system. And such engines also do not produce any visible smoke from the breather when the PCV valve is disconnected. It is only the old clunkers that have oily vapor in significant amounts in their PCV systems.

The carbon deposit issue on intake valve stems has been widely researched and documented by fuel chemists and engine manufacturers. Please bear in mind that carbon does not and cannot be formed at the temperatures found in intake manifolds or valve stems; regardless of whether fuel spray is present or not. It requires combustion (burning) of fuel to form carbon. So it is a mistaken belief that carbon deposits on intake valve stems result from exposure to fuel spray.

The source of carbon deposits on intake valve stems is the burned EXHAUST gasses which are generated during combustion; and which are pushed back into the engine from reversion pressure pulses in the exhaust system, during the brief period of valve overlap at the end of the exhaust stroke. In modern engines; the intake and exhaust valves are both held open simultaneously at the end of each exhaust stroke for between 30 and 60 degrees of crankshaft rotation. The exhaust reversion pulses pass backwards into the cylinder through the open exhaust valves, across the combustion chamber, and out through the open intake valves into the intake manifold. The length and diameter of intake and exhaust pipes can be designed to "tune" these pressure waves to harmonize with a particular engine design; but the reversion cannot be completely eliminated. This is undisputed, basic engine theory; which is explained in textbooks and taught in automotive technical schools. And this happens to a similar degree in both DI and non DI motors.

The old Ford Model T engine had cams that opened the intake valve at TDC intake stroke, and closed it at BDC compression stroke. The exhaust valve opened at BDC exhaust stroke, and closed at TDC between the exhaust and intake strokes. So those antique motors did not have any valve overlap. As a result, they could not develop any carbon deposits on intake valve stems; and got surprisingly good fuel economy; but they didn't produce enough power to get out of their own way.

As engines evolved further over time; it was found that engine power and speed can be greatly increased by delaying the closing of the intake and exhaust valves past the end of each of their respective strokes. This extended valve opening duration utilized the inertia of the already flowing intake and exhaust gas streams to more completely fill the cylinder with intake gasses, and to more completely empty the cylinder of exhaust gasses.

Today's hot rodders use racing cams which create between 70 to 120 degrees of valve overlap. These engines have all sorts of reversion pressure pulses; which make the idle unstable, sound radical and produce lousy low speed torque; but they pull much stronger at extremely high speeds than any stock cam could ever do. And it is those fast opening, high overlap cams which create the stacatto sound that distinguishes hot motors from stock ones. Hot rodders don't care about carbon deposits; because they tear the motors down and recondition them regularly.

Well tuned stock motors didn't used to create significant amounts of carbon; but this all changed when lead was removed from gasoline and was replaced with a wide variety of octane boosting compounds. The situation became even worse when reformulated fuel blends were introduced; which contained additional additives to reduce pollution. Severe carbon deposits became such a common problem that BMW conducted a series of tests to measure the amount of carbon build up created by different brands of fuel; and then published a list of the "top tier" fuel brands which they approved for used in their motors. Eventually, fuel refiners improved their additive packages; but those cleaning additives are costly, so they typically are not used in low priced fuels.

Today, you can only expect an engine (both DI and non DI) to have clean intake valve stems if top tier fuel brands are religiously and excusively used. For those of us who are unwilling to submit to this regimentation and expense; the alternative is to periodically add a bottle of Chevron Techron combustion chamber and fuel system cleaner to the fuel tank, just prior to filling the tank. This product greatly outperforms other brands. It usually requires 50 to 75 miles of driving to clean the engine of deposits. Techron is sold at Chevron gas stations; Checker, Shucks, Kragen, O'Reilly, and Murray Auto Parts stores, and Wal-Mart.

the_pill

Replying to: lancep97 (Mar 26, 2010 7:21 am)
These reviews are clearly from people with an agenda to drive the Sonata's rating down. " - Shabadoo25

By the way, I have seen these types of "spoiler" ratings before when the Hyundai Genesis was initially launched and several so-called positive comments were posted about the vehicle but the poster's overall ratings scored the car a 6, dragging down the overall rankings.

Edmunds investigated after these suspicious postings were reported and removed them.

jsmit86

I have seen this game played before on another forum. The Lincoln LS vs. Chrysler 300m spat was getting out of hand, and you could see people down rating each car.

m6user

That's why I don't pay much attention the overall rating unless it's really bad. I've heard that some car dealers had all their salesmen in their downtime write glowing reviews of their brand and post under different names and emails. I have no idea if it's true or not but wouldn't be surprised. You really have to take everything you read on these forums with at least a small grain of salt. Lots of people have agendas.

Some people are so enamored with their new car that they couldn't grade it objectively if they tried. Others that have had a couple of problems with a brand will bad mouth it for years.

On Edmunds midsized car reviews it seems that there have always been more Sonata reviews posted than Camry or Accord. What does that mean? Camry and Accord are huge sellers compared to Sonata(Sonata is gaining however) but more reviews??? Doesn't make sense but you don't hear people hollering conspiracy all over the place about it.

jaimz

The most suspicious part of those reviews, IMHO, are the gas mileage ratings.....a 6!?!

A 6?????

Come on. Get real. A frickin' 6?

That's an idiot rating. This car's gas mileage rocks. Period.

Sure, it's not as good as a hybrid but, in case you didn't notice, ITS NOT A HYBRID!

A 6. Give me a break. Either it's someone trying to sabotage the average, someone who has no clue how to rate things, or some idiot who guns it all the time and deserves to have low gas mileage.

bobad

And by the way, I rated it a 10 and my review is not on there. I think Edmunds selectively chooses which ones to include, probably based on which ones provide the most constructive criticism rather than just saying how awesome it is.

Over the years, I've noticed Edmunds batches the reviews. Sometimes they'll go several days without adding new reviews, then suddenly put in a batch of new ones. I think as long as they're reasonable, they will include them eventually.

Know how I use the reviews? I pick out the most critical ones, and from them, I pick out the most common complaints. When I test drive the car, I pay extra close attention to the most criticized areas to see if I can live with them.

bobad

Some people are so enamored with their new car that they couldn't grade it objectively if they tried. Others that have had a couple of problems with a brand will bad mouth it for years.

True,,, and some people dislike certain brands so much they could never give them an honest review.

meik

I just looked through them and one caught my eyes.

Some complained about tilt wheel - hard to adjust "while driving". :surprise:

We all have to be careful. S/he might drive a car right next to us.

ramkat

Thanks Zaken1. Good explanation about the reversion pulses. I am not convinced yet that the DI engine is less prone to carbon deposit build up behind the intake valves than the non DI engine but I buy in to the fact that not all DI engines are equal and that engine abuse will certainly have a huge impact. From what I have read Lexus has added an extra injector in the manifold to reduce the carbon build up of their DI engine. I don't think that they would have done that if it could have been solved by recommending the well heeled Lexus drivers to use only good quality fuel. However, your posting actually confirms the importance of using a quality fuel in the DI motor through out, even more so than the non DI engine. The old saying of prevention is better than cure. My reasoning is that although the after market additives, that you are referring to, will certainly clean the combustion chamber and injector there is much less of a chance of enough of it reaching the back of the intake valves when compared to a non DI engine. Even if the reversion pulses are taken into account.

Another product that I noticed being used is SeaFoam, what is your experience with that?

Thanks again for your thorough response.

sjwr

To me, it seems, two people stand out here as the most suspicious & with an agenda...

mikemartin & m6user....

My honest guess is that these two names actually belong to one person.
I'm sure that many here also agree with me, & have also thought the same...

I just hope that the owner of these two names would realize that people are not stupid, & realize that what he is doing is all so very transparent & unethical.

I just thought that someone had to eventually come out and do the dirty work &
say it, so that this forum remain clean, fair, & honest.

denp3

I am still considering the 2011 Limited. The reviews seem very positive.
I have a couple questions:
1. What are people getting for city mileage?
2. Is the outside temperature reading always on, even with the radio off.
It appears to me that it is integrated with the radio.
3: Has anyone got the Harbor Gray with the gray interior. It seems the
gray interior is almost a black. If so, are you happy with the color
combination.
4. Also, has anyone traded in a 06 Sonata LX, if so, what were trade in values.

I would appreciate any info.

jsmit86

I can answer this one:
3: Has anyone got the Harbor Gray with the gray interior. It seems the
gray interior is almost a black. If so, are you happy with the color
combination.

I have seen the gray interior in person, and it is light to medium gray... not even close to black. If you built one on the Hyundaiusa.com website, it only shows black, regardless of what you pick. (Unlike the exteriors on the virtual car; they change) All of the marketing photos of Limiteds show black.

I bought from a different dealer, but this website has the best actual photos I have seen. Check out
This link

ramkat

Folks, there is a good review on the 2011 Sonata on PBS's Motorweek #2935. I am getting more excited everyday. My order of a Venetian Red Limited is in. Keeping my fingers crossed I will have it before the end of April.

shot_mos

Did he try to sell you a transmission and radiator flush?

m6user

Well, you're wrong. I don't care for mikemartin's inuendos any more than the rest of you. I even posted in here to just disregard his posts and not respond as that just instigates.

Please point out one thing that I have posted that indicates I have some sort of an agenda for or against the Sonata. My comments about the reviews is valid and I would say it about any other car if it applied. In fact I agree wholeheartedly with bobad's comments about how he uses the reviews. I almost bought a Sonata the last time I bought a new car but my wife liked the Mazda6 better so guess who won. My daughter-in-law drives an Elantra and loves it so I hardly dislike Hyundais.

I have not posted one bad thing on here about the Sonata on this forum or even hinted at one. So you should probably get your facts straight before you accuse someone.

shot_mos

I've had my 2011 Sonata now for 30 days and 1200 miles.

A couple of minor things have popped up:

1) the passenger side rear seat lamp "switch" doesn't work, it's either not formed properly or is stuck on something, when you push it in to turn it on, you have to pull it out .

2) There's a speaker grill in the back package tray area that apparently doesn't work. I thought it might be a bass kicker type box, but I placed my hand on it and didn't feel anything, or hear anything from this speaker.

Any ideas? I hate to leave my vehicle at the service department for these two goofy things.

I know this will get asked, but NO, I'm not sure of the mpg. Somebody kept resetting it for some reason. The week days is driving in stop and go traffic, and the past couple of weekends have been 200-300 mile trips.

I'd guesstimate mebbe 25-30 mpg?

ramkat

Just for folks out there who are not aware of the fact that all fuel products are not equal. Zaken1 pointed to the TOP TIER gas suppliers and I did a google - thanks Zaken1. Here is a list. I would recommend that you folks put only gas from those suppliers in your cars as a precautionary measure for deposit build up in both the combustion chamber, on the back of the inlet valves as well as the injector. There are POI files available on sat nav GPS forums where you can get the locations of the majority of these retailers

http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html

m6user

Well, you will probably find it someplace in the Mazda6 forums but not much in the last year or so. I posted there quite a bit just before I bought the Mazda6 asking questions, doing research, etc. I post in the G37 forums, the midsize sedan 2.0 forum, the Acura TL forum rarely, VW TDI forums, Tundra truck forums. I think a few other others that I'm kind of interested in. You see I'm interested in a lot of vehicles and am always researching what I may buy down the road or in some cases just curious. It may be a 2011 Sonata later this year after the turbo comes out....maybe not.

Go ahead and knock yourself out check those other forums for my posts. I'm not a particular fanboy of anything and if someone critiques the Mazda6....guess what? More power to them. I'm adult enough to realize it's just one person's opinion and they may or may not know what they are talking about.

Some people in here just need to grow up.

pod

The dynamic within this formum mimics the dynamic in Washington. If you don't say nice things about a car I like, you are a subversive. We want the forum to be "clean, fair and honest" (i.e. agreeing with most of us recent Sonata loyalists). This is what the species does. My advice. Don't take any of this too seriously including what car you drive, or what color combination you like, whether others agree with you, the spreading of misinformation, opinions about noise or lack of noise. I will guarantee you that the Sonata is "better than some and not as good as others" and really not a bad car at all once you give it a chance. Find something important to spend your energies on. Understand that not everyone is going to choose your favorite color as their favorite color. Trust your opinion and let other opinions flourish as well. There are very few facts. I was an engineer and we used to invite criticism and contrary opinions on every design concept; hell, we used to seek them out becasue they helped us make a better product. Sticks and stones are games for kids.

jsmit86

I stand corrected. I deleted my post.

m6user

Thanks.

craigsamuel

Regarding Mr. Lube employees: that annoying pushing of everything except the kitchen fridge is why I started doing my own oil changes.

syitalian25

As for the first too things, I have not noticed either of these (although I'll check the rear speaker, I know the lights work fine) so I would take it to the dealer and make them fix it. No sense leaving it broken if there is a fix, especially a broken speaker.

As far as the MPG, it resets automatically whenever you fill up the car. I thought a ghost was resetting it for the first few days.

syitalian25

I am still considering the 2011 Limited. The reviews seem very positive.
I have a couple questions:
1. What are people getting for city mileage?
2. Is the outside temperature reading always on, even with the radio off.
It appears to me that it is integrated with the radio.
3: Has anyone got the Harbor Gray with the gray interior. It seems the
gray interior is almost a black. If so, are you happy with the color
combination.
4. Also, has anyone traded in a 06 Sonata LX, if so, what were trade in values.

I would appreciate any info.

1. City mileage has been about 23-24 here, but I have a heavy foot so you might get a few better.

2. In the SE the outside temperature is next to the clock and always on, I'm not sure why it would be different in the Limited.

3. I'm not a fan of getting the same color on the inside as the outside, but the gray leather on my SE if much darker than the pictures the other person posted. I'd check it out in person before you make any decisions.

4. You can check out your trade-in value at http://www.nadaguides.com/Cars or on http://www.kbb.com - my guess would be somewhere around $6500 depending on the mileage.

m6user

Do you have to do anything for the on-board computer to reset when you fill up? Any idea how this works? Some kind of tie in with the fuel filler door or something??

sjwr

"The dynamic within this forum mimics the dynamic in Washington. If you don't say nice things about a car I like, you are a subversive. We want the forum to be "clean, fair and honest" (i.e. agreeing with most of us recent Sonata loyalists)."

Your comparison of what I said to the "dynamic in Washington" seems very wrong & out of place here. And no one here accused anyone bcus they didn't say something "nice" about the car. The subject of suspicious agenda came up many times already because of comments that were obviously not constructive to the forum(regardless of whether positive or critical). The comments in this forum already show in many instances that people are happy to accept valid criticisms of the new Sonata, but also see them pointing out the ones that are purposely negative & suspicious.

Judging by your comment, it seems to you, even the comments with an obvious negative agenda are also valid "opinions". How amusing...
& people here are not making a 'light' issue out of this because they are "Sonata Loyalists". I think you are exaggerating the situation here & taking things too seriously yourself by calling people "Sonata Loyalists".

As I mentioned before, I believe that people here are just 'normal people' with common sense who want to see a "clean, fair, and HONEST" posting of opinions, whether critical or not. I think the record of the posts here already prove this fact clearly enough.
I'm sure many here will agree....

montag311

Where have you seen this? On the Motorweek website it says the air date isn't until April 30. And it says 2010 Sonata not 2011. I guess that's a mistake.