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Audi allroad

motokichimotokichi Posts: 48
The allroad is here with the 2.7T engine, 4 level
automatic air suspension and quattro. Is it the
ultimate all purpose vehicle, or just another
'pretend' SUV?


  • bollingerbollinger Posts: 207
    It does well offroad. But it isn't really for offroading. Thus, it is a pretend SUV. So what? It fits my needs very well.

    Look at the X5, one of the most pretend SUVs around, it sells well and people love it. They don't care much about the offroad capabilities. The Honda CR-X isn't selling because of its offroad capabilities (or even quality AWD) either.
  • I think where the allroad separates itself from the rest is in its potential to excel on and off road, thanks to its air assisted 4 level suspension. It raises and lowers itself according to the speed.

    Where many pretend SUV's (explorer and suburban come to mind) suffer is in their lack of ground clearance. They are too tall to be sporty on pavement and too low to be useful off road. The allroad addresses that problem by actually getting higher.

    Given the 250 hp biturbo engine and the body of an A6 Avant, this car could start a new concept in SUV's.

    The X5 sells because it's a BMW. It's the pavement capabilities that sell it. So between MB320, X5 and the allroad, which will be the best?
  • Does anybody know when it will be at the dealerships here?
  • bollingerbollinger Posts: 207
    Clearance is great, and the articulation on the Allroad is decent. However, without real diff locks, you can't do real offroading without overheating and heavily wearing the brakes.

    Once again, who cares? It's a fake SUV, so what? Most people are fake SUV drivers.

    I think the Allroad is wonderful and perfect for the market. It just isn't a true offroad vehicle. The name describes it well, it's good for all roads, even poor ones. Offroad is a different story.
  • jordanhjordanh Posts: 4
    I was going to buy the A6, but thought it too sluggish. When I heard that the Allroad was coming out with the 2.7T I thought all my problems were solved. However, I do still have a few questions that dealers haven't been able to answer.
    1) Will the bigger engine be counteracted by the heavier suspension? In other words - will I get just as much pep from the regular 2.8 A6?

    2) Is the interior space the same as the A6? I don't fit in some wagons (the smaller Volvo for instance) and want to make sure there is as much interior room in the front and back before I plunk down a deposit.

    3) What are we talking dollar-wise?

    4) Is it possible to get any bargaining leverage (Edmunds 3% over invoice rule) when you are on a waiting list for a new model? Seems like they have all the bargaining chips.

    5) Should I be fearful about buying a car the first year it is released?

    Thanks as always,
  • alingaling Posts: 598
    Well, IMHO, the Allroad is not a "fake SUV" because it is a hybrid wagon, much like the Volvo XC and Subaru Outback. Since Allroad is actually the A6 wagon, which has been out for a couple of years already, I wouldn't worry too much about reliability.
  • bollingerbollinger Posts: 207
    1, yes the heavier car cuts down on the speed of the Allroad somewhat. Still quite a bit faster than the 2.8 Avant though. Looking at low to mid 7's versus the 2.7Ts low to mid 6's and the 2.8's high 8's.
    2, same interior space as A6
    3, I forget, go to Audi's website. I think about $45K.
    4, no, not a chance. If you are on the waitlist for the car, you pay MSRP or very slightly less (like $500).
    5, it isn't a first year car by a long shot. Only the suspension is new. Engine is 18 months tested, A6 in general 3 years tested.
  • bgkannebgkanne Posts: 25
    A magazine comparison test with the 6 cylinder version of the X5 is in order! Why can't Audi get power out of their V6's without resulting to using turbos?
  • bollingerbollinger Posts: 207
    Audi's 2.8L V6 produces 193HP in the A4, 200 in the A6. BMW's 2.8L V6 produces 193HP.

    Where's the deficit?

    The new 3.0L BMW engine produces 225HP, although it isn't a very powerful 225HP, it performs significantly worse than the old 240HP M3 engine, despite similar ratings.

    The new Audi 3.0L engine that comes around next year is expected to produce 225HP.

    I think your assertion that Audi doesn't get enough power out of their 6-cyls is incorrect.
  • mr_quagmr_quag Posts: 28
    Keep in mind that air struts are expensive to replace if they fail. And failure to air struts are common with the pre 1994 Subarus.

  • beanboybeanboy Posts: 442
    There's another one buried that started when the car first appeared in the mags on the show circuit. Saddened that the latest review states that the low-range option with the manual won't be available in the states, the skid plates are a riot in terms of actually protecting anything, and it weighs too much (over 4000 pounds!). As Jeff mentioned, I'm scared what kinda shape the suspension will be in 10 years down the road. I'm gonna pull an F-Body and say a Soobie with careful mods will be superior in performance on paper, and save you some money to boot.

    Still, not a bad compromise. Audi not have an SUV in the works? Finally, A4 version would be interesting... Maybe in a performance/rally version perhaps?

  • bollingerbollinger Posts: 207
    I'm sure a Subaru could be make to perform better. But most people aren't buying Audi's for the performance, Audi already proved that. A Subaru with all the mods in the world isn't going to have an Audi interior or quietness. Don't get me wrong, I love Subarus.

    Audi SUV: bite your tongue. VW and Porsche get the VAG SUV's. I say good for them. VW probably could make a go of it, and the Porsche version will tank so fast it won't hurt them too much.

    As to an A4 version being interesting? Have you been asleep? The S4 Avant has been available in Europe for quite some time. It has the 2.7T engine (but with 265HP) in an A4 Avant (wagon) body with a better suspension. The S4 Avant comes to the US this year, quite soon really.

    In Europe they have the RS4, which is available as an Avant (wagon) only. It is an S4 Avant with a super-tweaked 2.7T engine producing 380HP. It is the fastest wagon available In Europe. The RS4 is not coming here.

    Both of these cars seem to fit your description of an "A4 version" of the Allroad, except for the suspension, which you don't seem very hot on anyway.

    Audi's rally car seems to remain the S3. Rally cars do seem to get a lot of gain from being very small, so that makes sense. The S3 is essentially a VW Golf with a TT drivetrain making "only" 215HP.
  • bgkannebgkanne Posts: 25
    It isn't the power ratings, it's the acceleration numbers and performance feel. For example, a current 328i (or now 330i) will run rings around all of the 4 series Audi's except the S4. Non turbo Audi's are usually mentioned as not performing very well. I suspect it is due to the quattro systems causing additional drag, but the cars are excellent regardless!
  • Audi have a long history with the turbo engine, and they prefer it to larger displacement. The nice thing with their turbo engine is the power delivery, which is smooth and without significant lag or surge.
    As to why they don't get more out of their NA engines, I guess the five valve configuration makes it more difficult for them to employ a variable valve timing. I think their V6 has a longer stroke and smaller bore than the BMW I6. This may help them keep the engine shorter which allows it to be mounted (oh what's the opposite of transverse) in line with the drive shaft and still keep the engine way up in the nose. So while the engine makes the same amount of hp, it takes them longer to get to the peak hp rpm.

    Quattro cars have not been so much about acceleration but cornering speed. This is what allowed them to kick BMW butt in the 1995-96 German sports car series and got them eliminated from the series for having an "unfair advantage".
  • bollingerbollinger Posts: 207
    The 2.8L engine (and 2.7T) have two-stage valve timing. The 2.8 also has a two-stage variable volume intake plenum, I think only on the A6 though, since it won't fit under the A4 hood. The 4.2 has a three-stage variable volume intake plenum. The 2.7T doesn't seem to have a variable-volume intake plenum. But that's okay, as that kind of tweak does nothing when you have forced induction.

    I wish Audi would ditch the 5-valve design. My philosophy is that if you can't get it done with 4 valves, maybe you don't need to do it. 4 continuously variable valves seems to work well for Toyota/Lexus and BMW.

    The opposite of transverse (for engines) is longitudinal. The engine in the A4,A6, and A8 (and Passat) is longitudinally mounted. And I agree, the shortness of the V6 gives them Audi's a better shape and more under hood flexibilty than BMW's straight 6. BMW's straight 6 has to be mounted back so far for weight distribution that it can be difficult to service and is noisy at times.

    BMWs 2.8L is "square" at 3.31 bore x 3.31 stroke. Audi's 2.8L is 3.24x3.40. Strange that Audi adds a valve and loses bore, but there you go. Note BMW added stroke (and no bore) with the new 3.0L engine. If my math works, the new stroke should be 3.55.
  • bgkannebgkanne Posts: 25
    According to the latest Road & Track, the Allroad has, by Audi's account, a 0-60 time of 6.7 seconds, matching the BMW X5 (I assume the V8 version). Considering the estimated price of 45K, the Allroad is an incredible package and a relative bargain.
  • thank you for the info, I didn't realize that some Audi V6 had VVT.

    Seems like the long stroke should make the 3 liter inline 6 for BMW a torquey performer.
  • bollingerbollinger Posts: 207
    When BMW added stroke to the engine, it only gained 8 ft-lbs of torque. What a joke. I can't explain it, other then the changes to the VANOS and intake runners must have smoothed the torque curve by lowering the high spots as well as raising the low spots.
  • I wonder how the torque curve will compare to the MB 320 and the X5.
  • beanboybeanboy Posts: 442
    FOr a rally-spec A4, I was thinking along the lines of taking an S4, putting on a traditional raised suspension and keeping an eye on the weight while fiddling with various slight engine/lighting/interior/exterior accouterments. Make it a limited release and have some sold to folks who are into the whole SCCA ProRally tours here in the US, similar to the deal DC had for the first year Neon ACRs. Heck, could even be called an RS4 here in the States, tehe.

  • bollingerbollinger Posts: 207
    That sounds great. You're really going to have to pull a lot of parts off since the A4/S4 is at its heart a luxury car.

    You could probably dump 50 lbs just of sound-dampening material (look inside the front fenders at the door openings!).

    If you are going to change the suspension, breaks, and tweak the engine, you might do well to buy A4's (perhaps even 1.8Ts) and replace the engine with a 2.7T engine instead of buying S4s from Audi which are limited edition and high profit margin. Would take a lot of front-end work though. Ooh, then you need to buy new trannies also (1.8T is 5-speed). Ouch. That's about $8K right there. Maybe that wasn't such a good idea.

    I don't know why I never responded to the torque question above. I'd be surprised if the torque band is wider on the E320 or the X5. the E320 didn't feel wider to me, and I've never driven the X5. Trust me, the 2.7T engine is smoother and more powerful in every way than the E320 engine. The 2.7T engine is making full torque (258 ft-lbs) at 1800RPM. Audi can claim this because they lie about full torque. The engine makes 258ft-lbs from 1800RPM to 3400RPM, and Audi claims it is flat. Actually, it peaks at about 270 or 275, and drops slowly toward 258 at 4000RPM.
  • beanboybeanboy Posts: 442
    Don't think a factory low-volume, high-priced rally-edition from Audi based on the S4 would have any trouble selling. Heck, a decent-sized aftermarket company could probably handle the costs of transforming an S4.

  • bgkannebgkanne Posts: 25
    Has anyone seen A4 wagons on the road? I have only seen one of the 3 series BMW wagons and not a single A4 wagon, and I am in the most German intensive car area in the US. I suspect the lack of interior room in them is killing their sales. Passat wagons are everywhere, as a comparison.
  • bollingerbollinger Posts: 207
    Are somewhat common around here, especially in SF. I agree there are more Passat wagons, but that's probably just because there are a lot more Passats.

    I agree the A4 doesn't make much sense as a wagon. Putting a big rear end on a car with small rear seat room isn' t the best idea.
  • It's a great car for a dog - lots of space in the back for them. My dog wouldn't fit very well in the BMW 3 touring.

    Most Avant owners I know wonder why anybody would get the A4 sedan.
  • bollingerbollinger Posts: 207
    I wanted an A6 2.7T Avant, and Audi doesn't make one in the US. They make the allroad now, but it was unannounced when I bought mine.

    I had to pick between the 193HP wagon or 250HP sedan. I took the sedan.

    Audi now offers an S4 Avant in the US. Rear seat is too small for me though.
  • I test drove an A6 today and almost bought an A6 Avant; coming home I saw more info about the Allroad. I'm very interested. I searched the web for info about current US availability, but found nothing. I'm wondering if anyone knows anything (even rumors) about when the Allroad will be available here in the US. I'd very much like to get one.
  • possibly due in next week, if our salesperson is correct
  • bgkannebgkanne Posts: 25
    The A6 Avant appears to be the best cross over wagon currently available, though I bet the Japanese will develop their own in the not too distant future. Current Subaru's really don't fit this category.
  • I work at an Audi dealership and we got 2 today. At least one of them is already sold. We have several more coming. We are selling them for MSRP.
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