Brand Problems Swept Under The Rug

british_rover

That guy claims to be the son of a mechanic and an engineer but thinks the Audi 5000 thing was actually real?

He also thinks the XC90 has any serviceable lube points whatsoever? European cars haven't had a chassis point to lube in a decade or two.

stever

People are going to blame big corp, not other drivers like themselves. I'm not sure what Audi could have done better to defend themselves, but obviously it didn't work.

Toyota needs to get in front of this issue, and not everyone is going to believe that all 200 reported accidents attributed to UI were caused by floor mats.

The NHTSA totally exonerated Audi. And the SEC didn't have any problems with Bernie Madoff either. :P

kdhspyder

I'm sure not going to test drive another Prius without figuring out how the Start button works.

This wouldn't be the best procedure if you wanted to regain control. As being tested over at PC the correct steps are BRAKE HARD and shift into NEUTRAL. It takes less than a second to do this according to many 'test drivers' at PC. It works.

Then when the vehicle is slowed enough...Power OFF...or just shift back to DRIVE and continue onward.

corvette

We laugh about the Microsoft car, but people seem to fix a lot of problems these days by "rebooting" their cars.

This is true. The Audi A4 I leased had a feature where the radio would stay on until you removed the ignition key. One day, the radio stayed on even after removing the ignition key, opening and closing the drivers' door, and arming the alarm system. I tried restarting the car and going through the shutdown/lock doors process again, but the radio kept going.

I was not about to make the 120 mile roundtrip to the dealer for what would be a minor problem, if it weren't for the danger of running the battery down. When I got home, I disconnected and reconnected the battery and the radio resumed normal operation. It never happened again. I imagine I could have removed the radio fuse and gotten the same result.

corvette

The Volvo T6's transmission issues are pretty widespread, to the point where I wouldn't consider buying a used T6. The 2.9 non-turbo uses the same GM-sourced transmission without nearly so many complaints of premature failure. As I understand it, the T6 is near the 4T65-E's design limits for torque, and Volvo made the critical mistake of neutering the transmission cooling system in their implementation. Plus, I think many of the affected vehicles were sold before GM started specifying synthetic fluid in their transmissions--not sure whether Volvo used the same fluid. A combination of non-synthetic oil, poor cooling, and a high output engine is a recipe for failure.

berri

We laugh about the Microsoft car, but people seem to fix a lot of problems these days by "rebooting" their cars.

As cars become more heavily electronic and computerized, why can't a car have electronic problems? I've owned enough computers to expereince their various glitches and quirks. Personally, I'm not keen on electronic start in place of keys until its proven out.

People are saying it has to be the floor mats, but why? As I've said before airliners have had previously undiscovered flaws like the rudder issue on the B737 and tail control issues on the MD80 and they are designed and tested to a far higher standard than cars. I think Toyota needs to prove these numerous incidents are not due to electronic or computer issues in the vehicle and I agree that I'm leery of just a NSTB general statement that nothing else had been found wrong. TEST it all out and issue definitive, scientific data that proves its floor mats and not electronics. I don't think that is an unreasonable course of action here.

kdhspyder

That's exactly what the NHTSA said that it did in the 400+ cases of alleged SUA in the Tacoma. It found no reason to think that there was anything electronic or mechanical at fault.

Why are these old dead cases being ignored? It has been studied.

Again I'll point you to the ones who really have a vested interested in coming to a real conclusion about this....the insurance companies. The NHTSA has no 'liability' to speak of in these matters except that they don't want to appear in front of Congress again like the Ford/Firestone fiasco.

The insurance companies lose real money - huge piles of money - when crashes and deaths like these occur. Money talks. The IIHS has never been reticent to speak its piece about vehicle safety....F150, Cavalier, etc. Why should it be so quiet 'here'?

There's nothing to find 'here'. Are so many here such learned auto engineers that they know that something is wrong but no one else in the world is smart enough to find this fault? C'mon..

berri

I dunno, seems like an awfully high number of floor mats for one company's brands. You'd think there would be comparable problems from GM, Ford, Honda, etc. since their mats don't seem all that different?

kdhspyder

The floormats were not the issue here. To be clear it's not the floormats that come with the vehicle. Just as with any other maker the carpetted mats are not the problem. It's the All Weather mats. The AW mats are only an issue when they're present and that's only been in a few cases.

So if it's not the mats, most of the time; and it's not the vehicles, all the time; then....???? Yep, you're right. That too is the conclusion of the NHTSA and apparently the insurance industry and anyone else investigating these alleged cases.

berri

Doesn't answer why it appears so prevalent on Toyota versus the competition? Lots of people use aftermarket AW mats on various vehicles.

You know they discounted reports of control incidents on B737 attributing it all to pilot error. It took two fatal accidents and another near crash before the flawed rudder issue was uncovered.

I'm not saying it is, or is not floor mats, just that I think its premature to draw a final conclusion yet.

kdhspyder

Supposition.

There are a lot of reasons why Toyota might be the object of more allegations; deep pockets, a previous history with truly dangerous situations of stacked All Weather mats, copy cat claimants, maybe even the design of the All Weather mats used in Toyota's is different and more dangerous then in other vehicles.

Since I've never experienced anything like it nor heard or seen first-hand anything like it then I'm definitely discounting all the 3rd and 4th hand reports and allegations. The NHTSA obviously believes this to be the case as well since it closed all 400+ cases of alleged SUA in the Tacomas. Again the insurance industry has said not one single word.

For me....Evidence, or it never happened.

gagrice

I'm not saying it is, or is not floor mats, just that I think its premature to draw a final conclusion yet.

The issue is not whether Toyota has some other problem with their electronic throttle, it is about getting people to believe in Toyota again. Toyota sales are in the Toilet while one of their major upstart competitors is gaining market share. Even CR the Toyota worshipers bible says the Genesis is better than the Lexus ES350.

You are right that it is premature to close the book on hundreds of complaints on ToyLex runaway acceleration. There is no doubt the Lexus dealer in San Diego screwed up putting the wrong floor mat in that ES350. That does not make an excuse for the other 16 fatalities due to SUA. Don't expect a Toyota salesman to see it your way. They are interested in only one thing. Pushing iron. Makes no difference what happens once it leaves the lot.

stever

since it closed all 400+ cases

"The agency never says there is no defect. . . . New information can come to light that there is a defect," Claybrook said.

That's from the rather infamous Joan Claybrook, the auto safety activist who formerly headed the NHTSA. LA Times

I can't find squat about an insurance industry position on the issue. Your point is well taken though.

And you'll enjoy this "overlawyered" link.

mcdawgg

"Toyota sales are in the Toilet"

Funny, the WSJ just had an article in that said the Camry sales are doing very well and Toyota is hiring back employees in Kentucky. Someone can maybe provide the link. You'd think that Toyota Camry would get hurt if people were really worried that their floor mats were going to start walking around, or if the electronic throttle was trying to kill them! I want to think that most people have at least some logic and see that this whole thing is not at all a problem if you use the correct mat and secure them with the hooks.

explorerx4

nobody is saying the original floormats that are the problem. it is not the A/W floor mat, either. it is the combination of the 2 with the gas pedal design that have a problem.
is there another problem that in combination with the A/W mat can push things to the point of no return? sounds possible.
The NHTSA is not like the FAA, they don't send in a team to analyze every crash.
i don't think any of us know what their protocol is.

kdhspyder

nobody is saying the original floormats that are the problem. it is not the A/W floor mat, either. it is the combination of the 2 with the gas pedal design that have a problem.

I was just being precise because there is so much imprecision hereabouts. Yes I agree with your statement above.

210delray

Have to agree with you there, Toyota sales, while down, are hardly "in the toilet." They're down no worse than the rest of the major automakers (and better than the real problem child, Chrysler). Hyundai/Kia are gaining, yes, but can it be sustained?

The Camry is the third best selling vehicle so far in 2009, trailing only the Ford F-150 and Chevy Silverado. The Corolla/Matrix and Prius are in the top 10.

Gary, you keep griping about the ES350. But it's the entry-level Lexus, basically a gussied-up Camry. Yes the Hyundai Genesis offers more value for a similar price. But what about the higher level Lexus models, the ones that are not shared with Toyota, like the IS, GS and LS?

On safety, the IIHS gives the ES350 essentially perfect scores (Good in all categories, based on the performance of the Camry)

Frontal test
Side test

explorerx4

to me the genesis sedan doesn't quite have an exact lexus counterpart.
it's above the ES, more like the GS.

210delray

Actually, it's the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) that investigates all fatal plane crashes, not the FAA. The NTSB has the power to make recommendations to the FAA, but only the latter can mandate their implementation.

The NTSB also investigates highway crashes involving multiple fatalites (such as bus crashes or tank truck explosions). Again, it can make recommendations to the NHTSA, which in turn can mandate or reject them.

explorerx4

i will defer to you about the NTSB, but did they investigate any of the reported auto related incidents?

210delray

I highly doubt it because their staff is small and can investigate only very serious highway crashes. They will not have the time to investigate a single-car crash, even if all occupants in the car die.

Fatal plane crashes, even including general aviation, are rare enough that they can investigate each one.

corvette

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/toyota-plans-to-end-us-floor-mat-woes-report-20- - 09-11-14

"[Toyota] will change the gas pedals so they are less likely to get stuck. The work will be handled through dealerships..."

"The total cost of the repairs is estimated at tens of billions of yen (hundred of millions of U.S. dollars), Nikkei said."

Sounds like Toyota will give you a sawed-off gas pedal, and you will like it.

210delray

If this story is true, it sounds like the entire gas pedal will have to be raised. Sawing off the bottom will make it too small, in my opinion.

I assume that means a redesigned bracket and pedal will replace the existing ones. I wonder how many people will bother to take their cars in for this replacement,

gagrice

The EPA tests on the ES350 give it 4 stars on side impact and rollover. The Genesis gets all 5 stars.

The Camry has a big sales lead to overcome. I would say most Americans considering a new Camry have no idea that this recall is in place or the circumstances surrounding it. Don't expect a salesman to give the details to a prospective buyer. Camry sales were still off from October 08. Toyota total sales were down 5.8% from October 08. While competitors Nissan, Ford, Subaru, Hyundai, Kia were all in the plus column for October from last year. How many of those buyers were informed and put an X on their Toyota choice because of the publicity surrounding their safety record?

gagrice

That is a good first step. They should then reprogram the ECU to cut the throttle under heavy braking. What would it cost to reflash the ECU? They did it on all the early Prius for the stalling problem. It should all be tied to one visit to the dealership. If Toyota really wants to get this behind them. That does not clear them in the pending litigation. They should be able to buy those folks off.

210delray

It's NHTSA and not the EPA that runs the government crash tests. The NHTSA side impact test ratings are not very useful because the dummies' head injury scores are NOT included in the star ratings. The majority of real-world side impact deaths are from head injuries. I'd use the IIHS tests, which do include insults to the dummies' heads.

As for the rollover score, most cars get 4 stars; the widest and lowest will earn 5. SUVs, pickups, and minivans generally score lower. This is based on a mathematical calculation and on whether a vehicle tips up in a hard turn on a test track. I don't know of any cars that have tipped up on two wheels, only a few SUVs and pickups. Let's see what happens when the IIHS reveals roof strength ratings on midsize cars later this month.

houdini1

Well, if the report is true, you have to give kudos to Toyota for going against their own best interests and proceeding to make changes to the design. They don't think the design is at fault, but to be on the safe side the changes are being made. My hat is off to Toyota !!

gagrice

Overall I would give credence to the IIHS as they are the ultimate bill payers. Looking at the top cars in each segment. 2009 Toyota Camry and Lexus ES350 neither one make the grade. Both rated marginal in side impact. Same as the Federal crash tests.

http://www.iihs.org/ratings/summary.aspx?class=15

http://www.iihs.org/ratings/summary.aspx?class=30

Lexus loses out all around. No really safe models in the Car lineup

http://www.iihs.org/ratings/summary.aspx?class=10

houdini1

Sometimes these rating do not make a lot of sense because the cars are rated in size categories. The problem is, when you are on the highway, big cars and little cars are all driven side by side.

A Honda Insight is rated a top safety pick for 2009 and a Lexus LS is not. If these two cars were in a head on collision, which one would you rather be driving?

IMO most of us would be better off if we did not blindly accept some of these findings and used a little common sense and judgment.

jogousa

Well, it all depends how will Toyota face this problem; i.e. their P.R. people. My son works for Toyota National HQ in Torrance, Calif. and they are well aware of the P.R. issues that almost cost Audi to pull out of US market back in the 80s. That was also un-intended acceleration but at that time Audi immediately blamed the drivers before fully researching the problem. They have to walk a fine line here even if it is driver's fault.

gagrice

if we did not blindly accept some of these findings and used a little common sense and judgment.

I agree, that is why I prefer driving a vehicle like the Sequoia in spite of the negative image and less than perfect crash test scores. I think the IIHS recently did comparisons between the classes of cars. The small cars did not fare that well against the larger cars. Many here cried foul. Facts are facts. A head-on collision between an Insight and a Lexus LS would not be pretty. I believe the people in the LS would have a better chance.

mcdawgg

"I wonder how many people will bother to take their cars in for this replacement,"

I know I won't!

stever

Good point - it can't help to blame your customers for anything, even if they are the ones in the wrong.

corvette

It should all be tied to one visit to the dealership.

I think Audi had at least three separate recalls for their little problem in the 1980s. Depending on the hardware configuration, retrofitting a "smart pedal" may not be possible with a simple reflash, and might actually require replacing computer modules.

At any rate, any reflash will have to go through extensive testing before they will release it to the public. At this point, they are going to have the NHTSA and plaintiffs' attorneys demanding to see and analyze their source code.

210delray

You read those charts wrong. All of the Toyota and Lexus cars did well in the side tests, earning the highest score of good. It was in the rear crash protection (for whiplash injury) that the cars didn't score very well.

210delray

Yes the cars are rated by size categories, for the reasons you state. As the IIHS puts it in those charts referenced by gagrice,

Vehicles are listed in order of performance in crash tests. Frontal crashes receive the highest weight, followed by side and rollover, and then rear crashes. Among vehicles with similar crash test results, vehicles are listed in alphabetical order. Frontal and rear crash ratings should be compared only among vehicles of similar weight while side impact and rollover crash test ratings can be compared across vehicle type and weight categories.

explorerx4

until recently Toyota corp was not in competition with government motors.
not too long ago, one our business units was lax in some of their business processes.
the government unilaterally imposed conditions on how they had to conduct business that resulted in them not even lasting 2 more years.
i'm not saying the government would put them out of business if some sort of negligence is determined, but they could do something to limit their success.
at this point, driver fault is not very likely, at least as far as initiating the unfortunate outcome.

ateixeira

Problem is while interesting and important, your post received no attention, so I'll repeat it here:

They showed the driver’s side floor had a piece of heavy carpeting on top of the factory mat. If that wasn’t bad enough, you could see at least a handful of women’s paraphernalia on the floor, candy bars/wrappers and I couldn’t even determine what the rest of the stuff on that floor was but I could see a sneaker that was partially under the brake pedal

Toyota can't blame the driver, it's bad PR and counter-productive. But we know better.

explorerx4

oil line issues?

houdini1

They will wait and let NHTSA do that.

mcdawgg

Cruise Control Switch Leads to Fires 4.5 million Fords Recalled! Be careful, this can kill you with the car off, parked in the garage!

http://money.cnn.com/2009/10/13/news/companies/Ford_recall/index.htm

gagrice

Yes I have heard about it. I received a notice to bring my 99 Ford Ranger in for the recall. The letter said to NOT park the vehicle near any buildings until the repair is done. The letter claims this is the second notice. It is the first I have received. It may have gone to the original owner that is no longer living. I have owned it for 3 years. I will leave it out away from the house until they do the recall.

gagrice

It looks like Ford sent out recall notices in 2007. The two fires reported to the NHTSA for 99 Ford Rangers came after the recall was sent out. Those that do not respond to a recall will have little to complain about if they suffer damage as a result of the defective system. Not really sure how automaker would track down current owners of vehicles bought used. Unless they search the DMV files for every state.

imidazol97

Here is another website of unhappy Toyota owners about the techniques used, or not used, to keep owners informed about problems. It was started November 10, 2009.

http://sites.google.com/site/toyotav6oillinescandal/

doggrandma

For people who wondered why Toyota has better incentives right now than Honda, this could be part of the explanation. Toyota really seems to have slipped in quality. It's too bad.

Toyota is not the only company cutting corners. It seems that many products, even expensive ones, are made cheaply with every effort made to cut back on the quality of materials. It's hard to find quality anywhere.

doggrandma

Speaking of rollover issues, is that why almost all new SUVs have such sloped back ends and thick roof pillars? So they can pass the roof strength test? I don't like this design. Rear visibility suffers too much. How often does a vehicle roll over compared to how often someone has a wreck because they couldn't see another vehicle coming up on the blind side?

ateixeira

I don't think so. One stand-out, for instance, is the Honda Element, which has bolt-upright pillars. I think that actualloy helps. A slope may make it easier to crush the roof.

british_rover

SOP that reasoned well thought out information gets lost in the screaming match.

I blame Cable news.

210delray

It's a styling thing. You don't need sloped roofs and excessively wide pillars (and tiny windows). As ateixeira said, the Honda Element did very well in the IIHS's roof strength test.

british_rover

Exactly right it is mostly styling although some of the wider pillars are the result of stuffing side curtain airbags in there.