I could see where it could easily happen to anyone. The question is was it inherently due to a poor design or negligence by Toyota or negligence on the part of the driver. The design of the floormat created a potential dangerous condition, and design of the pushbutton switch which was not labeled and failed to allow instantaneous shutdown contributed enormously to the accident. Of all the causes I'd put victims as the least culpable and in no way were they a primary cause.
Sometimes corporations, hospitals and physicians actually need sued if only to keep their interest and respect focused on providing a safe and competent product instead of only the bottom line. BTW I'm an engineer not an attorney.
The McDonalds coffee case is always brought up as an example of frivolous egregious law suits. The fact is that McDonalds was warned numerous times that their 170 degree coffee was dangerous, but it was hot based allegedly on a business decision that it would it would reduce refills, because until it cooled down enough to drink, in house customers wouldn't have time to ask for refills. The woman suffered very serious scald burns. http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm
So it is your contention that lawsuits and their defense do not cause companies to have to raise their prices? Maybe, like the government, they have a printing press in the back room?
I am a big fan of Tort reform. I think it has raised the cost of health care along with auto insurance and most everything we buy. The issue is who is going to look out after the consumer when a mega corporation digs in to cover up known problems? The only reason Toyota is under the microscope is one of their cars was a Cop Killer. It drew national attention. That gave all the little people that felt they were pushed under the bus by a big corporation some renewed energy.
My wife had a 1990 Mazda that had a goofy accelerator. When you stepped down hard on the gas the sole of your shoe would get trapped by the plastic shroud on the right of the accelerator pedal. It only happened to me a couple times when I was wearing sandals that the soles extended out past my foot. It was disconcerting the first time it happened.
Was it a poor design by Mazda? I think it was. Do you think anyone would listen if I went after them? Not likely. I did not have an accident or close call.
If Toyota was really convinced the floor mats in their cars were a hazard. Why were they still being used by their dealers? Not only their Toyota dealers. But their so called luxury brand dealers.
And $3,500 is small claims money. Would you have been happy to get that if your actual damages had been $35,000? Not only can big corporations afford the best justice, they want to fly-swat the little guy before he can even get near the courthouse door.
I was happy to get my expenses covered. Never occurred to me that I should sue for plastic plumbing that was 20 years old.
I do agree that large corporations run over the little guy. My concern is how much is enough. $25,000,000 for a child left unattended in a pool seems excessive. Yet many wanted that ambulance chaser for President.
It's like the McDonald's hot coffee case. How else are you going to get their attention?
"Five-year-old Valerie Lakey was playing in a children's pool when she sat on the drain at the bottom of the shallow pool. The drain cover had come off and she was unable to pull herself away because of the power of the suction. When someone finally was able to turn off the pump, the pull from the drain was so strong that most of her large and small intestines had been sucked out.
Lakey survived, but she is unable to digest food without the use of a feeding tube. During the course of the two-month trial, it came to light that similar incidents had occurred in other pools with the same equipment. In addition to winning the damages, Edwards was able to force the manufacturer to redesign its pool system to prevent similar incidents."
So a five year old is going to require a feeding tube for another 75 years (actually with that kind of injury, her life span is likely going to be significantly less). You think the kiddo deserves $250,000? That'd take care of her meds for what, maybe two years? You'd prefer that the taxpayers take on that health care burden once the $250,000 runs out?
the pool incident can have you thinking towards both sides. Leaving a child unattended should never have happened, but things like that do happen. Question is, should the pool company be liable fully for covering that families lifetime care costs for that child when they left her unattended for a time.
Is it even right to reduce compensation in such a horrible tragedy as hers, though. I spose it was lawyered up and a jury decided that the company owes. And had to re-design the pool. The consumer of pools wins in that case, then.
But the compensation deal would've required some intense scrutiny. If I were on that jury I would try and heavily weigh both sides in this case.
Of course, the pool maker then passes on these settlement costs to their future consumers, more down side.
This Toyota floor mat case is now front and center nationwide for news. Gonna be interesting to follow it to it's conclusion.
I'm all for tort reform. After one or two kids get maimed, the corporate officers should be subject to a criminal trial. This Edwards case was kid #13 going back a least a decade. It looks to me like the company was more interested in quarterly profits than fixing a known problem. Criminal.
Do you think Explorers would have kept rolling over if Bill Ford or the CEO of Firestone were told that yeah, the risk is high but the company will make more money not fixing the car. Oh by the way, now that you know, you may be subject to jail time if you don't make an effort to fix the problem since it's killing people.
Remember the Ford Pinto memo? Mother Jones magazine obtained the cost-benefit analysis that said Ford compared the cost of an $11 repair against the monetary value of a human life. Wiki.
Where are the vaunted insurance companies in all these messes? I thought a big part of their job was risk reduction. I guess they only care about the premiums too.
Toyota, being a Japanese company, may not have a good grasp on the politics and publicity of tort law in the US. They hopefully are throwing money at engineering fixes, in addition to making apologies. And hiring lawyers of the Edwards' caliber.
Just as in the Toyota case the pool comany was offensive at first that it was not their fault.
But after the settlement, the solution was easy: dual drains so that if one is stopped up the suction created would not be strong enough to injure someone caught on the drain by the water drawn in. Instead the water would be take in through the other, open drain keeping suction low on the "clogged" drain.
In a similar way if the Toyota had a Kill Switch or a real ignition key, the four people would be alive today, mats or no mats. So for sake of saving installing a little extra or for the sake of having the latest and greatest popular start system, people died.
Or for sake of following up on computer programming problems which have been popping up in posts and various Toyotas for years, people have died. With all the reports of unintended acceleration, they should have been putting in safeguards such as a real key or proper programming and especially with a brake pedal cutoff for accelerator above a certain speed.
and ta think, the people buying all these thousands of Toyota's aren't even getting decent body styling.
I know, cheap shot. I do feel so bad for those poor people who died in SD in this crash and for their poor survivors. This case deserves a fair settlement.
That pool case is also so very tragic. And the injury came from something with recreational intent, no less. :sick:
I most states, at least Ohio, the cigarette taxes have gone up drastically as a sin tax. I don't know the increase amount for Ohio either on the taxes part. So we're both running on our opinion, so that means we're both right!.
Cigarette tax varies a quite a bit from state to state. South Carolina is the lowest @ 7 cents per pack. Rhode Island the highest @ $3.46 per pack. CA is missing a good chance with only 87 cents per pack. They need to kick it up a couple bucks a pack.
In a written statement, the NHTSA said its records show that a total of 15 people died in crashes related to possible sudden acceleration in Toyota vehicles from the 2002 model year and newer, compared with 11 such deaths in vehicles made by all other automakers.
The Times located federal and other records of 19 fatalities involving Toyota and Lexus vehicles from the same model years in which sudden or unintended acceleration may have been a factor, as well as more than 1,000 reports by owners that their vehicles had suddenly accelerated. Independent safety expert Sean Kane, president of Safety Research and Strategies, said he has identified nearly 2,000 sudden-acceleration cases for Toyota vehicles built since 2001.
Other experts say the numbers may be far higher, pointing to a 2007 NHTSA survey of 600 Lexus owners that found 10% complained they had experienced sudden acceleration.
Where are the vaunted insurance companies in all these messes? I thought a big part of their job was risk reduction. I guess they only care about the premiums too.
You missed the mark. The big insurers at the time of the Pinto scandal had just revised the mission of the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety to become a much more proactive research and communications organization. Moreover, insurers had no knowledge then of the internal planning of Ford with respect to the Pinto fuel tank design.
The IIHS's affiliate, the Highway Loss Data Institute, was founded in 1972 to pull together claims data from the major insurers. This effort resulted in the first public release of claims losses by make and model, for both injury and collision.
The IIHS in 1973 conducted a series of front-into-rear crash tests of one vehicle into the rear of another, the moving vehicle going about 40 mph, the other stationary. In every single crash test, the vehicle struck from behind leaked significant amounts of fuel, including the Pinto. However only a Toyota Corona ignited when hit by an AMC Gremlin. A VW Beetle with a front-mounted fuel tank was the moving car in one test, and its tank did NOT leak. At the time, federal standards required only FRONTAL tests for fuel leakage; there was NO rear impact test. This is why the Beetle did fine, and all of the others leaked.
As a result of the widespread publicity (it goes without saying that the general public believes death by fire to be the cruelest way to suffer), the federal standard was upgraded in 1977 to require a 30 mph rear crash test. It was further upgraded to 50 mph, with a slight offset to the side of the car with the filler neck, in recent years.
The IIHS now has its own dedicated crash test facility to run numerous tests throughout the year, and Edmunds of course publishes the resulting crash test ratings. Prior to 1992, such work had to be contracted out, and therefore was far more costly. It can be argued that such crash tests are currently bringing about vehicle safety improvements at a far more rapid rate than government regulations.
There is also now an Institute for Business and Home Safety, which is in the process of building a lab large enough to simulate the effects of heavy rain, wind, and fire on structures with the goal of improving building codes in the future.
Good post. Any prediction on whether the insurers will hound the NHTSA or the car manufacturers to standardize the ignition switch, shifters and the like? I'm torn between encouraging innovation and winding up in a loaner that just has an unintuitive (to me) joystick in the cockpit.
I have trouble just finding the windshield wiper switch just going between my Nissan and my Subaru. Forget remembering which side of the car the gas tank filler cap is on.
Thanks. In answer to your question, I think the carmakers would fight tooth and nail for the kind of standardization you mention. NHTSA has the burden of showing that the benefits of making such a change would exceed the costs to the carmakers. The insurers would similarly have to present the case that nonstandard setups are leading to deaths and injuries that otherwise would not have occurred -- tough to prove, IMO.
In my own fleet of 3 vehicles, each has a different method of actuating the parking brake: pull-up handle on the console, step-on pedal on the floor, and old-fashioned pull-out "umbrella handle" under the dashboard. I find myself reaching for phantom pedals or handles when I switch vehicles.
I have a suggestion: do you think the "problems swept under the rug" thread could be merged into the "Toyota in decline in 2009" thread? These are basically running in parallel right now.
remembering which side of the car the gas tank filler cap is on.
It has taken me 6 years to remember that the gas filler is on the wrong side of my wife's Lexus. What were they thinking over in Japan? Kind of nice at Costco as those pump's are not as heavily used. I don't like keyless ignition or the keys that have a chip in them. $275 to replace a VW key & have it programmed, when lost. If I could just find a vehicle I like and keep it the rest of my life. Not likely I guess with all the foo foo junk on the market today.
I have a suggestion: do you think the "problems swept under the rug" thread could be merged into the "Toyota in decline in 2009" thread? These are basically running in parallel right now.
That makes sense as Toyota seems to be the automaker trying to sweep its problems under the Rug the last few years. :shades:
do you think the "problems swept under the rug" thread could be merged into the "Toyota in decline in 2009" thread?
They could be. But then we'd have to start over when the next potential scandal appears, courtesy of VW or Honda or Ford.
Gary, there may be a little triangle near your fuel gauge. Both our cars have them and when I gas up, I have to squint and find them and figure out which way they are pointing depending on which car I'm filling up.
Where are the vaunted insurance companies in all these messes? I thought a big part of their job was risk reduction. I guess they only care about the premiums too.
Regarding your statement, you would think that insurance cos would be at the nexus of tracking causes of accidents and recommending fixes. But I'm not so sure. They might have their interest in premiums only and not reduction of risk.
As an example: For years I've heard that Federal Pacific electrical distribution panels and breakers in homes are a safety hazard and cause of electrical fires as they claim the breakers sometimes fail to trip under load. Google "Federal Pacific electrical fires" and you will find many hits. OK so I have FP breakers and I figure the best source to find out if this is really a problem is through my home owners insurance co. I call my insurance broker and he calls the home office to inquire and all we get is we're not aware of any problems. If they were a problem you would think insurance cos would be the first to push for replacement as a fire comes out of their reserves.
i seem to remember from a ways back that ford cars had the filler on the right, except the the full size models. trucks had them on the left. it was due to most collisions involving the left side at the back of the vehicle. now they are on the left, i guess as a matter of everyday convenience.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Basically says that the NHTSA still has found NO evidence of unintended acceleration except for when the floor mats were unsecured or incorrect. So, it still is a floor mat issue.
Parallel posts require parallel rebuttal. Toyota tried to pull a fast one and got slapped down by the NHTSA.
Federal safety regulators have sharply rebuked Toyota Motor Corp. for issuing "inaccurate and misleading" statements asserting that no defect exists in the 3.8 million vehicles it recalled after a Lexus sedan accelerated out of control in San Diego County, killing four people.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration issued a statement Wednesday that the recalled Toyota and Lexus vehicles do have an "underlying defect" that involves the design of the accelerator pedal and the driver's foot well.
That means Toyota needs to re-design their flaky accelerator pedal and software.
I don't know what all the Toyota worshipers are worried about. It should not cost more than a grand a piece to retrofit 3.8 million vehicles with a fail safe smart pedal system. They should have done it when the whole business of runaway acceleration started with Audi. They believed they could get away with a few fatalities and not get caught. Kind of like some other automakers over the years.
Seems like some people are wishing that it is something more than floor mats, and there is no evidence of any fault, except floor mat interference due to improper installation, according to the NHTSA. Many people, including some persons here, some Media, and some lawyers, have "claimed" (or hoped :sick: ) that there has been unintentional acceleration caused by the drive-by-wire systems.
Yes, it looks like Toyota will have to make some modifications to these vehicles to make them even more tolerant of a few people's ignorance, stupidity, whatever. I am NOT talking about the CHP person, I am talking about the Lexus dealership.
Now, it is very obvious that some people are cheering for Toyota to go down in flames. I don't get it, I know I don't hope the worst for any automaker, but I guess that's just me. Some people need to be aware that this whole thing will cause ALL automakers to spend more money (bottom line - YOUR money). How about if I go after Ford and Mazda for not putting floor mat hooks in those cars I had long ago that very likely could have caused me to get killed? It caused me lots of stress - in fact, I think I still am suffering from it.
By the way, how many automakers have the "fail safe smart pedal system"?
For me, I know I won't have ANY problems, because I use the floor mats properly. My mechanic with 30+ years experience completely agrees.
For me, I know I won't have ANY problems, because I use the floor mats properly. My mechanic with 30+ years experience completely agrees.
For me I liked my cars that were simple. No ABS, ECU, ESC, PQR or drive by wire. I have never needed a seat belt or an air bag in 50 years of driving. Yet I am stuck paying for all the ignorant drivers that have needed or used them. I am sure you could make a good argument for each of those devices. I would bet I can make an argument against each of them. Such as ABS being dangerous on ice. Yet we have it mandated in our vehicles. I used carpet samples as floor mats in 4 GM PU trucks and my Suburban without incident of Sudden acceleration. All our trucks in the Arctic had rubber floor mats and NO incidence of SUA. The simple fact is Toyota throttle control is too close to the floor boards. All they need to do is raise it an inch and the floor mats will not interfere. The picture from the NHTSA should be all that is needed to convince anyone that has a logical mind.
There are still a lot of questions to be answered. From looking at that pic it is hard to imagine, even now, how that floor mat could have interfered that much.
As I understand it, the floor mat had melted onto the gas pedal during the fire. Who is to say that it did not get in that position because of the collision? Things do fly around a lot is a collision like this.
If we are going to continue the idle speculation, this whole incident COULD have been driver panic or some type of death wish.
Read these first 2 breathless accounts from self-styled safety expert Sean Kane, president of Safety Research & Strategies, Inc., on his sudden unintended acceleration expose and judge for yourself:
Sudden Unintended Acceleration Redux: The Unresolved Issue
SAN LUIS OBISPO, CA – On February 5, 2007, Bulent and Anne Ezal were headed to lunch at the Pelican Point Restaurant in Pismo Beach, California. The restaurant is nestled on the edge of a cliff, affording dramatic views of the Pacific Ocean below. The parking lot was downhill of the restaurant, so Ezal rode the brakes of his 2005 Camry as he approached a parking space. He was at a complete stop, when the Camry suddenly accelerated, jumping a small curb, crashing through a fence and over the bluff. The vehicle fell 70 feet to the rocks below, and turned over once, coming to rest in the surf. Anne Ezal died of her injuries in the crash. Bulent Ezal later recovered.
Seven months later, Jean Bookout and her friend Barbara Schwarz were exiting Interstate Highway 69 in Oklahoma – also in a 2005 Camry. As she sped down the ramp, Bookout, the driver, realized that she could not stop her car. She pulled the parking brake, leaving a 100-foot skid mark from right rear tire, and a 50-foot skid mark from the left. The Camry, however, continued speeding down the ramp, across the road at the bottom, and finally came to rest with its nose in an embankment. Schwarz died of her injuries; Bookout spent two months recovering from head and back injuries.
The full article can be found here. Interesting that Mr. Kane never states his qualifications, only that he started with the Center for Auto Safety in 1991 and then founded his current outfit in 2004. If he were an engineer, scientist, or crash scene investigator with an advanced degree, you think he'd mention it: About us.
Kane admitted in one interview that some of his research isn't scientific (link).
More of a publicity thing, which is often more effective anyway. I like the push he made to more clearly label tires so you can tell how stale they are (DOT codes are hard for me to see, much less decipher). And he's trying to get the word out about Enterprise and other car companies ordering rental cars that have missing safety features (they "decontented" side air bags from some of their fleet and then sold the used cars as having the latest safety features).
So he's a consultant/researcher. Either he is a liberal arts major, or maybe his time as a Nader Raider taught him to keep his personal history off the net so that it would be harder for GM to build a dossier and tail him.
You're correct, my daughter's 2000 Mercury Sable has the filler on the right-hand side, as do many (or, most) European cars. My SAAB and Volvo have the fillers on the passenger side, which actually I prefer. I don't like opening the driver's door right next to the fuel pump island, but it's all what you get used to.
OK, thanks! I guess then that all companies except these 3 are "guilty" of not having all the "necessary" safety features. Maybe we should get a class action suit against all of them!
I agree, simpler is better, in most cases, for me. I also agree that because of a few ignorant drivers (and dealers), Toyota will have to modify the pedal, among other things, and the other car makers will be forced into throwing money at their designs as well, costing us ALL money. The improper use of the mats is the problem, so now we all will have to have safety systems in place to compensate for a few people who are ignorant, etc.
I've said it a many times, please use the hooks and use only one mat that is designed for your car, no matter who makes it. Then, you (and I) will be fine.
WASHINGTON -- Honda Motor Co.'s recalls of 444,000 Accord and Civic vehicles for potentially lethal airbag defects are under investigation by federal safety regulators. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said it wants Honda and Takata Corp., the airbag supplier, to help explain why the automaker didn't include vehicles from the second recall in the earlier one nearly eight
At a recent party, an aunt drove up in a 2010 Camry. A quick check revealed some zip ties holding an aftermarket rubber floormat that the dealer sold her to place on top of her factory mats.
I asked her did her salesperson mention anything about the recall on those mats. She replied that the salesperson told her the recall was due to a driver stepping on the accelerator rather than the brakes. I just had to ask her what was with those tacky zip ties on her mats. She replied that she was wondering about that too since the dealer offered no explanation for it.
Common sense if used would solve most problems. Instead corporations often choose to deny rather than to solve the basic issue. Their belief is that if you say no loud enough and enough times that it will turn into "not our fault", so we can't be sued. Their mission should be to immediately rectify deficiencies using common sense, but they don't. They'd rather sidestep it loudly with smart lawyers and hopefully avoid liability.
i looked at the link, but didn't see anything about the level of investigation by the NHTSA. I did see this though: "Toyota agrees with NHTSA’s position that the removal of the floor mats is an interim measure and that further vehicle-based action is required."
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
i'm not wishing anything, just hoping find out what really happened. initially, i thought it was the driver that was the cause. the gas pedal design initiated the mat issue. a floor mat is just a floor mat and people have been stacking one on top of another for years. it is not an issue without a gas pedal designed that way. i am glad you are diligent in verifying that the mats in your vehicle are installed properly, but not doing so should not be a reason to have such catastrophic consequences.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
See my post #951 - I said Toyota (and others, you'll see) will have to modify the design to make it tolerant of ignorance. There is still zero evidence of any other fault, except the floor mats that are unsecured or incorrect, or on top of others - that was stated in the links.
I've said many times that I've experienced a Ford and a Mazda that had mats that slid around AND resulted in the accelerator getting stuck. This can happen in any car. The wrong mat, too many mats, or unsecured mats CAN cause a problem. Maybe the chances are slim, but it CAN happen, so all makers will be working on this with our money. Maybe some designs are more tolerant than others, but it can happen with any car, given the right circumstances. Watch, we will all pay for a few people's ignorance, no matter what your favorite car maker is.
Some people, maybe not here, seem to be praying that there is something else wrong other than the floor mats not being secured correctly.
Comments
Sometimes corporations, hospitals and physicians actually need sued if only to keep their interest and respect focused on providing a safe and competent product instead of only the bottom line. BTW I'm an engineer not an attorney.
The McDonalds coffee case is always brought up as an example of frivolous egregious law suits. The fact is that McDonalds was warned numerous times that their 170 degree coffee was dangerous, but it was hot based allegedly on a business decision that it would it would reduce refills, because until it cooled down enough to drink, in house customers wouldn't have time to ask for refills. The woman suffered very serious scald burns. http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm
Gasoline used to be 25 cents and has been up to $4.00 but that's not due to lawsuits. Cigarettes also have been upped greated by sin taxes
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
My wife had a 1990 Mazda that had a goofy accelerator. When you stepped down hard on the gas the sole of your shoe would get trapped by the plastic shroud on the right of the accelerator pedal. It only happened to me a couple times when I was wearing sandals that the soles extended out past my foot. It was disconcerting the first time it happened.
Was it a poor design by Mazda? I think it was. Do you think anyone would listen if I went after them? Not likely. I did not have an accident or close call.
If Toyota was really convinced the floor mats in their cars were a hazard. Why were they still being used by their dealers? Not only their Toyota dealers. But their so called luxury brand dealers.
Family of fallen Euclid police officer sues Ford, claiming negligence in engineering (Cleveland.com)
Shades of the Pinto all over again.
And $3,500 is small claims money. Would you have been happy to get that if your actual damages had been $35,000? Not only can big corporations afford the best justice, they want to fly-swat the little guy before he can even get near the courthouse door.
I do agree that large corporations run over the little guy. My concern is how much is enough. $25,000,000 for a child left unattended in a pool seems excessive. Yet many wanted that ambulance chaser for President.
"Five-year-old Valerie Lakey was playing in a children's pool when she sat on the drain at the bottom of the shallow pool. The drain cover had come off and she was unable to pull herself away because of the power of the suction. When someone finally was able to turn off the pump, the pull from the drain was so strong that most of her large and small intestines had been sucked out.
Lakey survived, but she is unable to digest food without the use of a feeding tube. During the course of the two-month trial, it came to light that similar incidents had occurred in other pools with the same equipment. In addition to winning the damages, Edwards was able to force the manufacturer to redesign its pool system to prevent similar incidents."
CNN (Here's a more detailed blurb).
So a five year old is going to require a feeding tube for another 75 years (actually with that kind of injury, her life span is likely going to be significantly less). You think the kiddo deserves $250,000? That'd take care of her meds for what, maybe two years? You'd prefer that the taxpayers take on that health care burden once the $250,000 runs out?
Do you have verification that most of the increase in price of cigarettes through the years is due to lawsuits?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Is it even right to reduce compensation in such a horrible tragedy as hers, though. I spose it was lawyered up and a jury decided that the company owes. And had to re-design the pool. The consumer of pools wins in that case, then.
But the compensation deal would've required some intense scrutiny. If I were on that jury I would try and heavily weigh both sides in this case.
Of course, the pool maker then passes on these settlement costs to their future consumers, more down side.
This Toyota floor mat case is now front and center nationwide for news. Gonna be interesting to follow it to it's conclusion.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Do you think Explorers would have kept rolling over if Bill Ford or the CEO of Firestone were told that yeah, the risk is high but the company will make more money not fixing the car. Oh by the way, now that you know, you may be subject to jail time if you don't make an effort to fix the problem since it's killing people.
Remember the Ford Pinto memo? Mother Jones magazine obtained the cost-benefit analysis that said Ford compared the cost of an $11 repair against the monetary value of a human life. Wiki.
Where are the vaunted insurance companies in all these messes? I thought a big part of their job was risk reduction. I guess they only care about the premiums too.
Toyota, being a Japanese company, may not have a good grasp on the politics and publicity of tort law in the US. They hopefully are throwing money at engineering fixes, in addition to making apologies. And hiring lawyers of the Edwards' caliber.
But after the settlement, the solution was easy: dual drains so that if one is stopped up the suction created would not be strong enough to injure someone caught on the drain by the water drawn in. Instead the water would be take in through the other, open drain keeping suction low on the "clogged" drain.
In a similar way if the Toyota had a Kill Switch or a real ignition key, the four people would be alive today, mats or no mats. So for sake of saving installing a little extra or for the sake of having the latest and greatest popular start system, people died.
Or for sake of following up on computer programming problems which have been popping up in posts and various Toyotas for years, people have died. With all the reports of unintended acceleration, they should have been putting in safeguards such as a real key or proper programming and especially with a brake pedal cutoff for accelerator above a certain speed.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I know, cheap shot. I do feel so bad for those poor people who died in SD in this crash and for their poor survivors. This case deserves a fair settlement.
That pool case is also so very tragic. And the injury came from something with recreational intent, no less. :sick:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I most states, at least Ohio, the cigarette taxes have gone up drastically as a sin tax. I don't know the increase amount for Ohio either on the taxes part. So we're both running on our opinion, so that means we're both right!.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
http://www.tobaccofreekids.org/research/factsheets/pdf/0097.pdf
In a written statement, the NHTSA said its records show that a total of 15 people died in crashes related to possible sudden acceleration in Toyota vehicles from the 2002 model year and newer, compared with 11 such deaths in vehicles made by all other automakers.
The Times located federal and other records of 19 fatalities involving Toyota and Lexus vehicles from the same model years in which sudden or unintended acceleration may have been a factor, as well as more than 1,000 reports by owners that their vehicles had suddenly accelerated. Independent safety expert Sean Kane, president of Safety Research and Strategies, said he has identified nearly 2,000 sudden-acceleration cases for Toyota vehicles built since 2001.
Other experts say the numbers may be far higher, pointing to a 2007 NHTSA survey of 600 Lexus owners that found 10% complained they had experienced sudden acceleration.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-fi-toyota-recall8-2009nov08,0,6120294.story-
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
You missed the mark. The big insurers at the time of the Pinto scandal had just revised the mission of the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety to become a much more proactive research and communications organization. Moreover, insurers had no knowledge then of the internal planning of Ford with respect to the Pinto fuel tank design.
The IIHS's affiliate, the Highway Loss Data Institute, was founded in 1972 to pull together claims data from the major insurers. This effort resulted in the first public release of claims losses by make and model, for both injury and collision.
The IIHS in 1973 conducted a series of front-into-rear crash tests of one vehicle into the rear of another, the moving vehicle going about 40 mph, the other stationary. In every single crash test, the vehicle struck from behind leaked significant amounts of fuel, including the Pinto. However only a Toyota Corona ignited when hit by an AMC Gremlin. A VW Beetle with a front-mounted fuel tank was the moving car in one test, and its tank did NOT leak. At the time, federal standards required only FRONTAL tests for fuel leakage; there was NO rear impact test. This is why the Beetle did fine, and all of the others leaked.
As a result of the widespread publicity (it goes without saying that the general public believes death by fire to be the cruelest way to suffer), the federal standard was upgraded in 1977 to require a 30 mph rear crash test. It was further upgraded to 50 mph, with a slight offset to the side of the car with the filler neck, in recent years.
The IIHS now has its own dedicated crash test facility to run numerous tests throughout the year, and Edmunds of course publishes the resulting crash test ratings. Prior to 1992, such work had to be contracted out, and therefore was far more costly. It can be argued that such crash tests are currently bringing about vehicle safety improvements at a far more rapid rate than government regulations.
There is also now an Institute for Business and Home Safety, which is in the process of building a lab large enough to simulate the effects of heavy rain, wind, and fire on structures with the goal of improving building codes in the future.
I have trouble just finding the windshield wiper switch just going between my Nissan and my Subaru. Forget remembering which side of the car the gas tank filler cap is on.
In my own fleet of 3 vehicles, each has a different method of actuating the parking brake: pull-up handle on the console, step-on pedal on the floor, and old-fashioned pull-out "umbrella handle" under the dashboard. I find myself reaching for phantom pedals or handles when I switch vehicles.
I have a suggestion: do you think the "problems swept under the rug" thread could be merged into the "Toyota in decline in 2009" thread? These are basically running in parallel right now.
It has taken me 6 years to remember that the gas filler is on the wrong side of my wife's Lexus. What were they thinking over in Japan? Kind of nice at Costco as those pump's are not as heavily used. I don't like keyless ignition or the keys that have a chip in them. $275 to replace a VW key & have it programmed, when lost. If I could just find a vehicle I like and keep it the rest of my life. Not likely I guess with all the foo foo junk on the market today.
That makes sense as Toyota seems to be the automaker trying to sweep its problems under the Rug the last few years. :shades:
They could be. But then we'd have to start over when the next potential scandal appears, courtesy of VW or Honda or Ford.
Gary, there may be a little triangle near your fuel gauge. Both our cars have them and when I gas up, I have to squint and find them and figure out which way they are pointing depending on which car I'm filling up.
Regarding your statement, you would think that insurance cos would be at the nexus of tracking causes of accidents and recommending fixes. But I'm not so sure. They might have their interest in premiums only and not reduction of risk.
As an example: For years I've heard that Federal Pacific electrical distribution panels and breakers in homes are a safety hazard and cause of electrical fires as they claim the breakers sometimes fail to trip under load. Google "Federal Pacific electrical fires" and you will find many hits. OK so I have FP breakers and I figure the best source to find out if this is really a problem is through my home owners insurance co. I call my insurance broker and he calls the home office to inquire and all we get is we're not aware of any problems. If they were a problem you would think insurance cos would be the first to push for replacement as a fire comes out of their reserves.
it was due to most collisions involving the left side at the back of the vehicle.
now they are on the left, i guess as a matter of everyday convenience.
Basically says that the NHTSA still has found NO evidence of unintended acceleration except for when the floor mats were unsecured or incorrect. So, it still is a floor mat issue.
Federal safety regulators have sharply rebuked Toyota Motor Corp. for issuing "inaccurate and misleading" statements asserting that no defect exists in the 3.8 million vehicles it recalled after a Lexus sedan accelerated out of control in San Diego County, killing four people.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration issued a statement Wednesday that the recalled Toyota and Lexus vehicles do have an "underlying defect" that involves the design of the accelerator pedal and the driver's foot well.
That means Toyota needs to re-design their flaky accelerator pedal and software.
Yes, it looks like Toyota will have to make some modifications to these vehicles to make them even more tolerant of a few people's ignorance, stupidity, whatever. I am NOT talking about the CHP person, I am talking about the Lexus dealership.
Now, it is very obvious that some people are cheering for Toyota to go down in flames. I don't get it, I know I don't hope the worst for any automaker, but I guess that's just me. Some people need to be aware that this whole thing will cause ALL automakers to spend more money (bottom line - YOUR money). How about if I go after Ford and Mazda for not putting floor mat hooks in those cars I had long ago that very likely could have caused me to get killed? It caused me lots of stress - in fact, I think I still am suffering from it.
By the way, how many automakers have the "fail safe smart pedal system"?
For me, I know I won't have ANY problems, because I use the floor mats properly. My mechanic with 30+ years experience completely agrees.
For me I liked my cars that were simple. No ABS, ECU, ESC, PQR or drive by wire. I have never needed a seat belt or an air bag in 50 years of driving. Yet I am stuck paying for all the ignorant drivers that have needed or used them. I am sure you could make a good argument for each of those devices. I would bet I can make an argument against each of them. Such as ABS being dangerous on ice. Yet we have it mandated in our vehicles. I used carpet samples as floor mats in 4 GM PU trucks and my Suburban without incident of Sudden acceleration. All our trucks in the Arctic had rubber floor mats and NO incidence of SUA. The simple fact is Toyota throttle control is too close to the floor boards. All they need to do is raise it an inch and the floor mats will not interfere. The picture from the NHTSA should be all that is needed to convince anyone that has a logical mind.
Only 3 to my knowledge: VW/Audi, BMW, and Mercedes. Mercedes won't even issue a clear statement as to when they started using these pedals.
As I understand it, the floor mat had melted onto the gas pedal during the fire. Who is to say that it did not get in that position because of the collision? Things do fly around a lot is a collision like this.
If we are going to continue the idle speculation, this whole incident COULD have been driver panic or some type of death wish.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Or is it like Audi where the only problems came from a certain group of drivers?
Sudden Unintended Acceleration Redux: The Unresolved Issue
The Safety Record, Vol. 6, I3, June – July 2009
Copyright © Safety Research & Strategies, Inc.
SAN LUIS OBISPO, CA – On February 5, 2007, Bulent and Anne Ezal were headed to lunch at the Pelican Point Restaurant in Pismo Beach, California. The restaurant is nestled on the edge of a cliff, affording dramatic views of the Pacific Ocean below. The parking lot was downhill of the restaurant, so Ezal rode the brakes of his 2005 Camry as he approached a parking space. He was at a complete stop, when the Camry suddenly accelerated, jumping a small curb, crashing through a fence and over the bluff. The vehicle fell 70 feet to the rocks below, and turned over once, coming to rest in the surf. Anne Ezal died of her injuries in the crash. Bulent Ezal later recovered.
Seven months later, Jean Bookout and her friend Barbara Schwarz were exiting Interstate Highway 69 in Oklahoma – also in a 2005 Camry. As she sped down the ramp, Bookout, the driver, realized that she could not stop her car. She pulled the parking brake, leaving a 100-foot skid mark from right rear tire, and a 50-foot skid mark from the left. The Camry, however, continued speeding down the ramp, across the road at the bottom, and finally came to rest with its nose in an embankment. Schwarz died of her injuries; Bookout spent two months recovering from head and back injuries.
The full article can be found here. Interesting that Mr. Kane never states his qualifications, only that he started with the Center for Auto Safety in 1991 and then founded his current outfit in 2004. If he were an engineer, scientist, or crash scene investigator with an advanced degree, you think he'd mention it: About us.
More of a publicity thing, which is often more effective anyway. I like the push he made to more clearly label tires so you can tell how stale they are (DOT codes are hard for me to see, much less decipher). And he's trying to get the word out about Enterprise and other car companies ordering rental cars that have missing safety features (they "decontented" side air bags from some of their fleet and then sold the used cars as having the latest safety features).
So he's a consultant/researcher. Either he is a liberal arts major, or maybe his time as a Nader Raider taught him to keep his personal history off the net so that it would be harder for GM to build a dossier and tail him.
(welcome back Fin; more pics please).
I've said it a many times, please use the hooks and use only one mat that is designed for your car, no matter who makes it. Then, you (and I) will be fine.
You wanna start name-calling, you can be the "ambulance chaser".
If that pool mentioned above is filled with acid by the pool boy, is it the pool manufacturer's fault if someone takes a dip?
Maybe they should have supplied a pool that would hold water, but not acid.
These designs must be fault tolerant, you know.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said it wants Honda and Takata Corp., the airbag supplier, to help explain why the automaker didn't include vehicles from the second recall in the earlier one nearly eight
Rough week for import brands.
I asked her did her salesperson mention anything about the recall on those mats. She replied that the salesperson told her the recall was due to a driver stepping on the accelerator rather than the brakes. I just had to ask her what was with those tacky zip ties on her mats. She replied that she was wondering about that too since the dealer offered no explanation for it.
Oh what a feeling!!
I did see this though:
"Toyota agrees with NHTSA’s position that the removal of the floor mats is an interim measure and that further vehicle-based action is required."
initially, i thought it was the driver that was the cause.
the gas pedal design initiated the mat issue. a floor mat is just a floor mat and people have been stacking one on top of another for years. it is not an issue without a gas pedal designed that way.
i am glad you are diligent in verifying that the mats in your vehicle are installed properly, but not doing so should not be a reason to have such catastrophic consequences.
I've said many times that I've experienced a Ford and a Mazda that had mats that slid around AND resulted in the accelerator getting stuck. This can happen in any car. The wrong mat, too many mats, or unsecured mats CAN cause a problem. Maybe the chances are slim, but it CAN happen, so all makers will be working on this with our money. Maybe some designs are more tolerant than others, but it can happen with any car, given the right circumstances. Watch, we will all pay for a few people's ignorance, no matter what your favorite car maker is.
Some people, maybe not here, seem to be praying that there is something else wrong other than the floor mats not being secured correctly.